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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
Since It seems like this mod is getting to its final Stages of development before finalization/Main Release. and BTW Excellent work on your mod, its been threw quite a Development process, but its good to see/know that you guys are Fine tuning it up.  | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
If any are not set up for standard its a bug or a localization error. If there any particular missing keys just let us know and they'll get fixed. edit: Very exciting! The match between Romson GM and our resident veteran masters Dirtybag! | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
The christmas tree is the thumbnail, I love it. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Man I hope Romson keeps playing Starbow and we see LaLsuh try and beat him  | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
Some of you report problems with the micro between those units. Zealots can´t catch Marines Zerglings pathing insanely good Would anyone mind to write a more accurate description of the problems? Zealots suffer from the same issue Speedlings had previously where they would miss shots when opponent moved the units just before the Zealots would attack them. This makes them worse relatively to BW, and should IMO be reverted (just as speedling change was reverted). Anyone, besides that I still think there are some issues w/ PvZ early game. Previously I have had problems early game PvZ as it just felt so hard to just survive while going 1-gate FE against Dirtybag. Yesterday night we had Dirty play multiple games vs Romson, and Romson also lost every single time early game he tried to execute 1gate FE. Part of the problem also come down to Zealots missing, but even then, it just felt too hard. And it obviously frustrated him - thus I belive we need to adress it asap. W/ the Marine we nerfed Stim DPS from 100% to 50% - that has created an issue where Speedlings now are slightly too good vs Marines. But what about also nerfing Speedling DPS by 10% or so? That, I believe, could create a big boost in buffing 1gate expand builds. Right now, It seems that Speedling openings are too dominant vs protoss early game and simply forces it to tech/turtle on 2 bases (as in BW). I believe we should try to give protoss more variety vs zerg, and for that to occur, we need to look at the Zealot vs Speedling relationship, which atm. favors the Speedling too much. Many of you would prefer a rearrangement of the abilities on the Protoss air units. (Corsair, Scout, maybe Sentinel) Two alternatives: - Let it be as it is. After Starbow is released, evaluate what works and not, and then change it. - Find a better solution before release. Great answear, he? ^^ I thought I had putted up a pretty compelling solution for protoss air. At least it (from a theoreitcal) point of view creates true synergy - the current solution doesn't have any true synergy between Scouts and Corsairs. What's your opinion on my solutions? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Also note saying, pvz's we played, protoss played those bad, so so dont take it as an indication MAPS @FS possible to make the natural more wide? Its no space now between the nexus and the "wall". BW fs, much more space there. @Texas Natural gas needs 4workers. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
Also note saying, pvz's we played, protoss played those bad, so so dont take it as an indication Its an indicaiton in the sense that it shouldn't take 10+ games before a GM player can learn to execute a 1-gate expand in such a way that he can merely survive into the midgame. It should simply be easier. When Romson died in all five games in the early game (despite making a couple of suboptimal mistakes each game), its too me a sign that the game isn't functioning well enough. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On January 09 2014 20:11 SolidSMD wrote: Give it some more time, dirty knows some strong rushes, romson doesn't know them yet. There should be strong aggressive options for zerg -> more scouting and more exciting early game. Don't wanna force in the sc2 hots style where zerg just pumps drones on 3 bases. But I don't believe that's a realistic option. Starbow needs to be easy to learn - hard to master, not hard to learn hard to master. Sc2 can get away w/ the opening part being more difficult as peole are more patient to learn that game. Sbow needs to give a great initial impression. TvP mech does that really well atm, but ZvP doesn't. After the 5 games, Romson simply gave up trying to learn it. If that reponse had came from a gold-player, I wouldn't have been so worried. But when it comes from a GM, its too me not acceptable. The basic problem is that Speedlings atm. are so cost-effective vs Zealots. For instance 3 injured speedlings could beat one Zealot w/ fully HP! With these relationships, it simply doesn't pay off for the protoss to attempt to play aggressive on 1-gate expand as he is so cost-ineffective in small early game battles. Rather, I believe it is much more likely that he will just return to normal forge-expand and turtle on 2-bases untill he get Archons/HT's. So I think if we don't buff the Zealot relative to the Speedling, then the game will be a lot more turtlish as protoss simply won't see the neccsary risk/reward to attempt to play aggressive. If instead, the DPS gets nerfed a bit, then protoss will attempt to play more aggressive which will open up the game. The main problem as I see it with Sc2 is that it has so big assymmytries in the midgame where one race is clearly superior to that of the other race. For instance, zerg is much stronger in midgame than protoss which forces the protoss to turtle (or commit to an all-in). In BW and Sbow the problem is related to early game in ZvP where zerg simply is too strong, which forces the protoss to turtle. I think it may be possible (if executed) perfectly for the protoss to survive by going 1-gate expand, but I don't see the reward in any way compared to going forge-expand. Due to the strenght of speedlings, zerg can always fend off the harass relatively efficiently (so he can maintain decent economy meanwhile). Instead, I just see a build that you have 100 different ways of losings (being safe against Mutalisks, Lurkers, Speedlings and Hydra rushes at the same time is ridicilously difficult on 1gate expand, and is simply why forge-expand feels superior), and most people will give up trying before they learn to execute it properly. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Its an indicaiton in the sense that it shouldn't take 10+ games before a GM player can learn to execute a 1-gate expand I dont agree with this sentence. I watched that last replay of him and me(pvz). He macroed the zealots very badly, and then he lost. Romson actually gave up trying to learn it yesterday I dont think he did, cus he said it was the last game for tonight before the game started | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On January 09 2014 20:30 Foxxan wrote: I dont agree with this sentence. I watched that last replay of him and me(pvz). He macroed the zealots very badly, and then he lost. I dont think he did, cus he said it was the last game for tonight before the game started But don't you think Speedlings could use a dps nerf? Wouldn't that incentivize 1gate expos a lot more? When Zealots fare so poorly early game vs Speedlings, why would you even try to play that playstyle? Why not just go the safe and easier forge-expand and get templar tech faster? I dont agree with this sentence. I watched that last replay of him and me(pvz) He lost 5 games (or so). Not one. What will happen for all new non-GM players when they attempt to learn PvZ if the GM has so much trouble. Further, what happened was that the simply tried to tech. He invested in Cyber-core, Assimilartor and forge. His mineral count was actually never high, thus he couldn't really afford much more Zealots. But ofc. he did mistakes - but that's not really the point here because everyone makes mistake - especially when they play a new mod. But in a well designed matchup we don't instantly lose the game early on. In a well-designed matchup the game should continue into the midgame thereafter. So the whole concept of "we just need to get better at learning the builds" is flawed, because very few/if any will ever get to that stage in Starbow if their initial impression is so negative of the matchup. Romson certainly wasn't enthuasistic about PvZ early game (that's fair to say). | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
For now, I think focussing on design issues are a bit more important than balance discussions though. We need a good solution for Ghosts, a new Robo unit (The Phalanx looks cool, but what should it do?) and a good discussion on Stalkers. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
But don't you think Speedlings could use a dps nerf? Wouldn't that incentivize 1gate expos a lot more? You know i feel this already, i even suggested this myself one week ago, with some other minor protoss buffs - kabel liked it, dont know what keeps him back, anyway. But ofc. he did mistakes - but that's not really the point here because everyone makes mistake - especially when they play a new mod. But in a well designed matchup we don't instantly lose the game early on Thats true, if u go for a safe build. Now, how did he play this? After his nexus he went 2fairly fast gateways and than he didnt macro in those for a long time - thats not a mistake, thats a fail strategy imo With that said, 1gate fast nexus is a fairly unsafe build so it will take further practice. Iam sure he would be fine if he opened 2gate-tech into nexus. Besides, Pvz takes alot of practice, hell broodwar takes a lot of practice - i dont think we can change that regard overall. What will happen for all new non-GM players when they attempt to learn PvZ if the GM has so much trouble. I think this whole GM- thing is kinda way off here | ||
iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/W1lOZei.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ScE4bro.png) | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
For now, I think focussing on design issues are a bit more important than balance discussions though. Tier 1 balance, however, is really important, because it impacts how the game is played, which also is a element of design. With the current strenght of the speedling, I think it rewards more defensive play from the opponent. In terms of later game, I am not sure there is a problem. For once, Marines are nerfed, so Speedling nerf should be benefical for TvZ balance. In ZvP, Storm DPS is nerfed, and I think Speedlings probably benefit more from Sc2-mechanics (better pathing and no maxed unit selection). But regardless, if there is a late game problem w/ speedlings being too weak, we can buff the tier 3 DPS upgrade to compensate for the lower starting DPS. With that said, 1gate fast nexus is a fairly unsafe build so it will take further practice. Iam sure he would be fine if he opened 2gate-tech into nexus. Besides, Pvz takes alot of practice, hell broodwar takes a lot of practice - i dont think we can change that regard overall. Yes I agree, it takes a lot of practice, but that's a problem as I see it. We should try to make builds that are good for the game (rewards aggression) a lot easier to execute. Otherwise, everone will use the build that is easier to execute, because most people aren't spending enough time learning and playing the game (cus there is little incentive to do that w/ Starbow). Anyway, I guess we are on same page here as we both want a Speedling DPS nerf, so no real reason to further discuss this. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
I just feel you cant take it as an indication - that if a GM got tired of it, its a problem. Design and balance takes much more than that. BW tournament For people who are interested and do not know about it. http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/CaucasianAsian LIVE(Big name tournament) group A today | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
I would also add that I saw a potential balance problem in the Stalker-Mine interaction, and Mines might need a minor buff to adress this. The fact that 2 Stalkers can clear a mine or a group of 5 Stalkers can clear a minefield with no detection seems a bit silly. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
@iHiro logo I have a request. Try a smaller or more subtle bow like the one in page 489. Use kabel/gossen's traditional color scheme. That could be amazing. | ||
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