If you find the time you might want to experiment a bit with this:
On October 23 2012 02:33 sluggaslamoo wrote: I've made some progress on this during my time making a mod. What do you guys think?
Only trigger is disable units pushing other units (one command, its a player flag you can switch off). Also lots of trial and error with changing unit radiuses, accel/decel, formation radius, turn rate, etc. This makes em bump into each other a bit forcing them to need to spread out a bit more.
I think this would be vital for the popularity of your mod (among few other things that you already implemented).
@Purakushi I guess I'm most active in the Collegiate Starleague community since I'm the head of the starcraft club at CMU, so if you're in college, maybe our teams have played each other?
Also, since I'm procrastinating on homework, I guess I'll drop off a few observations from playing:
1) I love the new situations that force you to micro, like diffusing mines with zerglings, splitting hydras versus reavers
2) I like how I can actually use mutas now that I'm not afraid terran will just a-move into my base cause defense is easier with lurkers, but without muta stacking, they just don't seem as effective
3) I don't know if the watch towers are necessary, I feel like zerg can take them easier than other races (as intended in sc2), but I don't feel like zerg needs that vision given that it plays more like bw zerg. Even with the big maps, it feels very easy to watch all the paths when compared to BW, so I have this fast army that can be in position to stop any push while counterattacking/flanking
4) I like how hard it is to max out (or maybe I'm just really bad at Starbow)
On October 23 2012 02:33 sluggaslamoo wrote: I've made some progress on this during my time making a mod. What do you guys think?
Only trigger is disable units pushing other units (one command, its a player flag you can switch off). Also lots of trial and error with changing unit radiuses, accel/decel, formation radius, turn rate, etc. This makes em bump into each other a bit forcing them to need to spread out a bit more.
I think this would be vital for the popularity of your mod (among few other things that you already implemented).
Think something similar is implemented right now, and pathing is not any close to be a major issue (or any kind of an issue for that matter) right now, so let's leave those tidbits out and focus on more imporant things.
On October 23 2012 06:50 SkipToMyLiu wrote: 3) I don't know if the watch towers are necessary, I feel like zerg can take them easier than other races (as intended in sc2), but I don't feel like zerg needs that vision given that it plays more like bw zerg. Even with the big maps, it feels very easy to watch all the paths when compared to BW, so I have this fast army that can be in position to stop any push while counterattacking/flanking
I feel like seconding that - we got watch towers in SC2, because there were not so many great map controlling units implemented, whereas here and in BW, each race had its ways to control the flow on the map.
On October 23 2012 06:50 SkipToMyLiu wrote: 4) I like how hard it is to max out (or maybe I'm just really bad at Starbow)
Still a bit too easy than intended, but yeah, it's pretty good. We still need to find ways to punish hard turtlers, but that's a thing to be discovered by players rather than forced by Gossen.
I am trying to add stop lurkers but I can´t get it to work. It seems to mess them up really well. It can´t be THAT hard to solve so I will look into it when I get time. The Zerg macro mechanics has kept me busy lately. Read more about it here:
Ok NA.. Patch has been sent to your server. Please try the new Zerg inject called "Breed." (I didn´t want to mess up the old Inject so I made a new ability instead)
On October 23 2012 02:33 sluggaslamoo wrote: I've made some progress on this during my time making a mod. What do you guys think?
Only trigger is disable units pushing other units (one command, its a player flag you can switch off). Also lots of trial and error with changing unit radiuses, accel/decel, formation radius, turn rate, etc. This makes em bump into each other a bit forcing them to need to spread out a bit more.
I think this would be vital for the popularity of your mod (among few other things that you already implemented).
While you were playing the mod, you should be able to see that we have something similar to this already. Units will spread out a bit, but we don't want it to be too much. Look at SC2/BW they both have things not spreading out that far. This is really obvious with Vulture/Zergling/really fast units.
On October 23 2012 06:50 SkipToMyLiu wrote: @Purakushi I guess I'm most active in the Collegiate Starleague community since I'm the head of the starcraft club at CMU, so if you're in college, maybe our teams have played each other?
Also, since I'm procrastinating on homework, I guess I'll drop off a few observations from playing:
1) I love the new situations that force you to micro, like diffusing mines with zerglings, splitting hydras versus reavers
2) I like how I can actually use mutas now that I'm not afraid terran will just a-move into my base cause defense is easier with lurkers, but without muta stacking, they just don't seem as effective
3) I don't know if the watch towers are necessary, I feel like zerg can take them easier than other races (as intended in sc2), but I don't feel like zerg needs that vision given that it plays more like bw zerg. Even with the big maps, it feels very easy to watch all the paths when compared to BW, so I have this fast army that can be in position to stop any push while counterattacking/flanking
4) I like how hard it is to max out (or maybe I'm just really bad at Starbow)
Heh, maybe. I graduated from UT Austin, but, while I kind of kept up with the scene, I was too bad to play for it in CSL. I think one of my friends uses that nickname for something, too. lol Good luck in CSL!
2) Yeah, I miss muta stacking. @Kabel, is there any works going on for this? (or reasoning not to put it in)?
3) I have the same sentiment toward watch towers, too. I would actually prefer they be taken out.
4) Haha, it's not just you. It is pretty hard to max out in Starbow. This is a combination of the economy and necessary territorial control that tends to force more engagements. More smaller fights is a good thing
Please do join channel "Starbow" to discuss and find games. We would love more players, especially masters. ^^
Oh, right, I was supposed to ask this a long time ago. Does a reaver's scarab skip the shields (or deal full damage to shields) of an immortal, and if not, why not? I was under an impression that reaver play in PvP doesn't go out of the area of harassment, whereas I'd love to see more of them included in the main armies, but the immortals just seem to dominate as support units due to their shields and attack bonuses.
On October 23 2012 07:08 JohnMadden wrote: Oh, right, I was supposed to ask this a long time ago. Does a reaver's scarab skip the shields (or deal full damage to shields) of an immortal, and if not, why not? I was under an impression that reaver play in PvP doesn't go out of the area of harassment, whereas I'd love to see more of them included in the main armies, but the immortals just seem to dominate as support units due to their shields and attack bonuses.
just control the reavers so they don't target the immortals.
So, first off please read what I wrote about the other map. The same thing applies. I think this map or something almost exactly alike was posted before. The third is too hard, meaning most games will be 2-base all ins or something similar. A siege tank line should be able to protect the third, with very little or no movement. Think cloud kingdom.
After you fix this, I'd be willing to go into tiny issues.
- Macro is a bit more difficult/interesting for zerg; however, due to the still existing excess economy, it is still VERY easy to get mass bases, so breed/inject is not necessary mid/late game when you have tons of macro hatcheries. At this point, I think the macro mechanic itself is good (but not necessarily balanced), but the economy of the overall game needs to be looked at. Tweaking this macro mechanic (i.e. lowering the rate of larvae, etc) will not effectively stop zerg's rampant expanding. - One thing that bothered me a lot is that the queen energy regenerate rate does not synch with the breed/inject. It was kind of bothersome to have to wait about 10 more seconds before I could breed/inject again, because the queen only had 16-17 energy. I think, if you stay on top of breed/inject cycles, you should be able to do it immediately one right after the other. - I think I would prefer the old inject animation to this one. The old way was a bit more visible, and it also included an audio cue for when it was over. Maybe change it back and just not make any new larvae spawn?
On October 23 2012 01:18 Kabel wrote: I am aware that the economy isn´t spot on and that something feels a bit fishy with Zerg.
but if you slow down the production of normal larvae? a hatchery instead of producing a larva in 18 seconds, Produces 22. Using the new spawn larva compensates up for this nerf. In this way the zerg slows its saturation. I apologize for my bad english
On October 23 2012 06:47 NukeD wrote: If you find the time you might want to experiment a bit with this:
On October 23 2012 02:33 sluggaslamoo wrote: I've made some progress on this during my time making a mod. What do you guys think?
Only trigger is disable units pushing other units (one command, its a player flag you can switch off). Also lots of trial and error with changing unit radiuses, accel/decel, formation radius, turn rate, etc. This makes em bump into each other a bit forcing them to need to spread out a bit more.
I think this would be vital for the popularity of your mod (among few other things that you already implemented).
While you were playing the mod, you should be able to see that we have something similar to this already. Units will spread out a bit, but we don't want it to be too much. Look at SC2/BW they both have things not spreading out that far. This is really obvious with Vulture/Zergling/really fast units.
Yeah I know. Curently the units stay in their formation when moving, thats the only difference. I dont think thats is enough. How can anything be more important than proper pathing? Its the base you build upon.
I'm going to continue to upload replays of noteworthy games that I've played, predominantly in ZvP, but I'm just posting this for the time being. The gist of good PvZ play right now is early aggression that forces units, then tech that punishes those units, then a push-out to take a third and deny Zerg from getting up infinity bases and rolling the Protoss.
EDIT:
A friendly game vs decemberscal, failed early pressure transition into GG. Note the hatchery count when he ggs out, this is typical ZvP and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it without microing like a friggin' boss early game to be incredibly efficient with units. You basically can't lose armies or it's gg.
On October 23 2012 09:50 purakushi wrote: - One thing that bothered me a lot is that the queen energy regenerate rate does not synch with the breed/inject. It was kind of bothersome to have to wait about 10 more seconds before I could breed/inject again, because the queen only had 16-17 energy. I think, if you stay on top of breed/inject cycles, you should be able to do it immediately one right after the other.
Uhoh. It's like two hatcheries at the price of one!
So, first off please read what I wrote about the other map. The same thing applies. I think this map or something almost exactly alike was posted before. The third is too hard, meaning most games will be 2-base all ins or something similar. A siege tank line should be able to protect the third, with very little or no movement. Think cloud kingdom.
After you fix this, I'd be willing to go into tiny issues.
At the same time it shouldn't be too easy, as in close to nat/main and surrounded by choke points. The thing is, it should be available for one to secure once he accumulates enough units to hold it (assuming no previous pressure occurred from either player), but the distance should be long enough for both the expanding player to not be able to secure both second and third with just a handful of units and the attacking player to not steamroll right into nat after taking down the third.
Now that I think about it, that design allows you to defend your third with a few tanks in both possible natural positions.
On October 23 2012 09:50 purakushi wrote: - One thing that bothered me a lot is that the queen energy regenerate rate does not synch with the breed/inject. It was kind of bothersome to have to wait about 10 more seconds before I could breed/inject again, because the queen only had 16-17 energy. I think, if you stay on top of breed/inject cycles, you should be able to do it immediately one right after the other.
No, this is, or should be, intentional. With Inject, because you generated the same amount of energy in the time it took for the spell to wear off, you could never feel like you were catching up to using all the Queen's energy again. Every second not spent Injecting in a game was production absolutely gone forever.
Now if a Queen builds up an excess of energy, she can actually use it all by chain-casting Breed quickly enough. However, you shouldn't feel forced to always be casting it. It's not something you need to keep up with in the same manner as Inject, ie, not a chore, but a decision.
- I think I would prefer the old inject animation to this one. The old way was a bit more visible, and it also included an audio cue for when it was over. Maybe change it back and just not make any new larvae spawn?
I haven't seen the new animation but it's probably better not to have the eggs growing on the Hatchery for this one. Something visible along the lines of Chrono would be optimal however.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Mr7zT.jpg)
