|
United States4883 Posts
BNET forums: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6933835384
Individual Freedom vs. Collective Freedom
Introduction: Today as I was driving, I came across a bumper sticker regarding American politics reading “Individual freedom, not collective freedom”. Aside from American politics (which is a mess), this little saying hit me fairly hard as I began to ponder it. Suddenly, this idea came across to me that individual freedom of parts is a necessary design concept in gamemaking, especially in regards to SC2, as opposed to a freedom of only certain groups.
For those of you who have never watched Day9's discussion of "Game Design: Baseballs vs. Frisbees", I suggest watching it with the state of HotS in mind.
What is individual freedom? + Show Spoiler + Let's start with a comparison of BW to SC2. In many ways, the units in BW feel like they have a lot of depth with tactics like: hold position lurkers, mutalisk micro, vulture spider mine antics, dragoon micro, cool abilities including maelstrom, plague, and lockdown, etc. When we look at SC2, we feel a more shallow pool of units and ideas, where most units follow the basic ideas of: splitting, abusing chokes, and kiting. While these are good micro techniques that take tons of experience to do well and leave room for skill, the fact is that all units basically fall under this category with the exception of casters. How does SC2 make up for the fact that its basic units are shallow?
“Support units”. SC2 makes the game interesting by introducing tons of units that benefit one another but only when together. Because there are so many different ways to pair these units and play with the overall composition of your army, SC2 becomes multi-faceted as both players try to find the “better army” against their opponent.
However, when we step out, we see that hydralisks without roaches are terrible, colossi without a meat shield are weak and vulnerable, broodlords without infestor/corruptor are defenseless against air. While it is good for strong units to have a drawback, we see that each of these units and most of the units in the game (with the exception of the marine hahaha) have this drawback; they are all AWFUL by themselves, subject ONLY to splitting abusing chokes, and kiting. They are units designed to work only in conjunction with other units.
As we look back at BW, we begin to recognize how deep and interesting every unit was, not only in the abilities or attack that they had, but in the way they could step out of their given role momentarily in the hands of a skilled player. We begin to see that the idea of “attacking units” and “support units” are a fallacy; BW had units that could support but also cause collateral damage on their own. An example of this is vultures with spider mines. On their own, they could raid mineral lines, kill workers, or lay minefields to buy time; with good control, however, they could even become useful in battles as the vultures laid mines on top of the enemy army. Of course, with the lay mine ability, they also gained some interesting new no-collision tactics based on the game AI, which was cool too. Aside from the vulture, units like lurkers, dark templar, and corsairs, etc, were multidimensional and could hold more than one role while also having unique control.
Individual freedom of the individual units themselves, not groups or combinations of units, is what allowed BW to be such a dynamic game.
Ironically, the units that fill this role in SC2 are the units most everyone hates: marines, roaches, zerglings, (infestors?). They are multipurpose units that allow a player with good control multiple options as to how they can be used. Good examples of units working within group freedom (or group synergy) are corruptors, sentries, tanks.
Why is individual freedom dynamic? + Show Spoiler + Assuming a system where all parts have individual freedom, each part can potentially be paired with any other part for a unique combination. More options means that there is more potential for tactical decision making, more strategies, etc. If we use chess for an example, we see that each piece has a specific and unique way of moving but is still capable of capturing any other piece. There are almost infinity options for how to play through the game and pair pieces together to cover one another or trade or sacrifice for positioning. If we were to add 3 new unique pieces to each side (and adjust the board and setup however), we would find that the game becomes increasingly more complicated, even moreso than before. This is what we should expect from the addition of parts with a nature of individual freedom.
Relating back to Starcraft, we can see how the addition of something like the lurker or corsair completely changed the view of the game and the strategies involved. Because of the mutability of the corsair, the strategy of corsair/DT emerged in PvZ; we see that neither unit was particularly related or meant to support one another, but through clever innovation and used with a high level of skill, it became a potent strategy. In addition, we saw interesting things done with the corsair's disruption web ability to shut down hydra attacks (5-hatch hydra being common). Because of its nature of individual freedom, the corsair was an interesting, dynamic unit that was not made specifically to work in conjunction with other units, but had a mutable role of “light splash anti-air”. In the upcoming SC2 expansion, we should be looking for the same kind of effect.
Upon the release of HotS beta, we've seen a few units come and go. Certainly the best units receiving feedback from the community are the Viper and the Mothershipe Core. Looking at these units, we see that both have a unique role while at the same time being able to do interesting things on their own. Mothership Core can do early scouting, can spot the high ground for a blink in, can be used to defend, etc. The Viper, while being in a pure support role at the moment, can still pull things out of position with abduct and shut down tanks and groups of ranged units with blinding cloud; this unit feels very much like a defiler, which was definitely one the more fascinating units in BW. (NOTE: blinding cloud can also be used on planetaries, missile turrets, photon cannons, and spore/spine crawlers to break down defenses, making it useful for breaking down a defensive area)
Of the units we see not getting good feedback, there is the Tempest and the Swarm Host. When we look at each unit, we see that they are fairly one-dimensional, meant as a counter to specific units or groups of units. On their own, we see that both are fairly useless and need some kind of buffer. Of the micro they offer, there is splitting and kiting for tempests, and direction of locusts and burrow (to a limited extent) for swarm hosts. They work excellently in a very particular environment, but are otherwise useless units. They are geared toward giving groups of units power.
How is individual freedom balanced? + Show Spoiler + Assuming each part in the system can work dynamically and independently, each part becomes strong. However, if any one piece is too strong or fills too many roles, we come across the problem of “favoring”. If any one part serves too much the role of another, then that part is favored and replaces the other part permanently. Therefore, in a system of individually free parts, no one part can be dynamically better than any other one.
As an example, you would not introduce a piece to a chess game that can move in any direction diagonally, but can jump over pieces; the role of this piece would overlap far too much with both the knight and the bishop. In addition, if you were given a choice at the beginning of every game to choose if you wanted bishops or magistrates (what we'll call our imaginary piece) to play with, you would always choose the magistrates because they can do everything the bishops can and more. Bishops would become obsolete, and they would eventually be phased out of the game.
In SC2, the best example of this unit is the infestor. At the state of the infestor currently, it holds too many roles and does too many things well on its own. If a full energy infestor call kill a huge group of marines with a chain fungal, why do you need banelings? If 4 infestors can kill a planetary with infested terrans, why would you deploy roaches to kill it? Infestors can root units, make walls, move while burrowed, neural control big units like colossi, mothership, and thors. They just fill too many roles and as a result leave units like hydras and mutalisks out of the mix indirectly.
Another example of this was the warhound before it was removed. It wasn't that it was a bad unit, it just overlapped entirely with marauders, tanks, and marines, making all of them completely obsolete. In a world where the other units didn't exist, it could have been an interesting and good addition to the game, but the fact is that it filled too many roles and was too good at everything.
Individual freedom needs to be diverse enough so that the parts don't overlap in such a way as to make any other part obsolete or useless.
What this means:Game Design in HotS should not be aimed at filling specific holes in army battles or to fill out a certain unit composition. Each unit should be interesting and dynamic on their own. With a greater independent freedom, we will see a greater display of strategies and tactics as players are able to combine and use units differently. Freedom as a group is a straightjacket that limits the game possibilities and forces Blizzard into balances that make each individual unit less interesting. What we want in HotS is not a list of units that can help “in that lategame army scenario” but a set of interesting, dynamically-charged units that have their own skillcap and unique feel.
+ Show Spoiler +This is one part of a multi-part manifesto I'm writing about game design and how a game should be designed properly. I hope you like what I have to say and I love feedback!
|
Awesome post. You kind of capture that feeling we all had when we found out a certain unit could have an utility we didnt even think about before. Who had imagine banerain before we saw pro use it (Moon was the first i saw use it). Who had imagined it would be good to the point that it would receive a nerf? Billions of example. Like blocking protoss wall with a changeling :D when the only use we saw at once was scouting.
That kind of thing cant happen with the oracle...
|
I've been thinking along something along these lines(not word for word) but in a sense in where the players should be able to play the styles they want to with the arsenal they have and forge new meta games. Not old bland stale ones where we have to do a one play style all the time. Would love to see this posted on the beta forms tbh and see what people think
|
I was expecting an extremely long post of bland pseudo-intellectual bullshit, but what I got was actually well thought out and I agree completely. I feel like this type of design direction leads to more variability in playstyles.
|
sc2john do you have a beta key? You should put this in the battle.net forums, or have someone else do it.
|
On October 23 2012 10:27 robopork wrote: sc2john do you have a beta key? You should put this in the battle.net forums, or have someone else do it. I can post it if you don't have a beta.. send me a PM if you want me to.
|
|
Excellent post. One of the best analysis I've read in quite a while.
|
The properties that are desirable belong to the dynamics, not the units themselves. It's very hard to design good open-ended dynamics because they are emergent -- you can't see directly from the pieces you have what they're going to be capable of, unless they follow very basic rules which makes a trivial game.
I believe you're looking at BW through rose-tinted glasses. It has some cool unexpected dynamics, and it is better than SC2 in that regard, but it's unfair to say BW was that much better at letting units perform different roles on the fly. The thing that gave BW more magic was that any given engagement seemed to have lots of opportunities to gain an edge. It actually didn't have that many but it feels like it because of the unit control and pathing limits. So you had to do APM triage on the fly. That's like playing checkers and spinning plates at the same time. SC2 doesn't have this as much, for a lot of reasons, mostly because of unit control and pathing.
The units in SC2 also have bad design features and I wish they were better. But it's easy to overplay the design-based success of BW. Everything you mentioned from BW that isn't basic micro is just a quirk of the engine. The performance of things in SC2 is much more uniform and that comes out in how similar things feel.
The best way to fix this from a unit design standpoint would be to try and create units that perform much better when you babysit them. But that will only go so far.
To get back to the main idea of your post, individual freedom, I think you're actually naming a deeper design phenomenon with the language of dynamics (similar to what I said above). Not that this is bad -- the job of design is to connect mechanics and dynamics through explicit choices and general guidance. You make the game pieces, you don't directly make the gameplay.
What you really mean by individual freedom is that any given focal point for player choice has lots of complex ramifications. Some of them might be powerful and most should probably be irrelevant 99% of the time. But the benefit of saturating a game with these options is that you have an overflow of things that might matter. Most of the time things are straightforward, otherwise you boggle players with incomprehensible dynamics. But there is always an opportunity to turn a game situation on its ear by taking advantage of an unusually relevant dynamic. That's the kind of thing that makes you say "oh shit, good call, genius play". But if you overburden players with a huge list of complicated things the pieces do, they can't even get to the dynamics because they are just trying to remember their list of options, let alone form an idea of what will happen after choosing one.
Thus the ideal is a distribution of dynamics that weights towards some basic principles but always leave room for unlikely situations, all of which arises out of pieces and rules that are as simple as possible.
In the case of BW and SC2, we get a lot of mileage out of the fact that units have a certain damage, fire rate, hp, armor, range, and they can be anywhere in a 2D plane throughout time, and you can manipulate the last two. That's a lot of variability! Obviously the sheer multitude of possibility doesn't mean anything can happen -- speedlings surrounding a hellion squad will have the same result no matter where it happens on the map. But depending on the other things in the game, like terrain features, small adjustment can make a big difference. And that's not even considering all the splashy unit abilities that provide additional tactical and strategic depth.
That's why I point to the not-as-sexy "pathing" for BW's dynamics. This is where you are manipulating the units, throughout XY and T. Homogeneous SC2 engine makes homogeneous SC2 dynamics.
And lots of other complicating factors, like unit design. I didn't even get into interchangeability, which relates to what you were saying. But the "hardcounter"-iness of SC2 units makes them less interchangeable than BW units, so they can't perform as many roles.
Nice post, I like the lens of "freedom" for evaluating design. Looking forward to more.
|
What you're referring to as "freedom" and "depth" is commonly referred to as "strategy vs execution".
In BW, micro was arguably alot more important, this made the "excecution" of your play alot more important. Micro was needed for pretty much every single unit at a high level of play. It made every unit seem to have alot more "depth" because a hard counter suddenly becomes a soft counter in the hands of a good player.
Here in SC2, its pretty much all about building the counters and the strategy. ie you build roaches/lings and ill just build collosus and you'll just build corruptors. You get broodlords and ill just get vikings and you'll just get vikings. etc. Of course the micro is still here, it just plays a smaller role compared to strategy. This limits depth because, hard counters will always be hard counters no matter how hard you micro. Units will only be viable in certain situations unlike in BW. Of course there are examples of BW like units here in SC2 such as Terran bio(thank god they decided to take out the warhound). Maybe phoenix play or blink stalker micro. But thats pretty much it. I cant think of anything else.
Just a TLDR version of your main points.
|
This is a great topic and part of why I think it is great is because I disagree with some of the points. Still, it is well written and makes a good case.
I don't know how relevant this will be to the topic, but it is the first thing I came to think about when I read it:
When diablo 3 was released, the design team promised millions of possible rune and skill paths. This was mostly due to the fact that diablo 2 was loved because of its replayability. They wanted a game with so many options that nobody would ever get tired of it.
Problem is that with D3, as with all new games, both designers and players expect balance. In other words we want each of those abilities and also each of their combinations to be equally strong compared to others. This in stark contrast to how the expectations were for D2 back in the days.
The result? D3 was released with millions of combinations of skills, most of them doing the same or very similar things. Sure, the game was fairly balanced, but the depth of gameplay mechanics was just not there. A few months in, there remained one or two builds that were viable in inferno for each class. At least that was how it looked to me.
The issue with making each unit viable on its own, without the synergy of a larger group, or at least not a pre-defined group is that some units will then simply be better than others. It is also very hard to say which unit will be better before players get to play them. Especially why they would be better. The result of that is that you must make each units individual "gimmick" less extreme to avoid imbalances. Then you suddenly lose a lot of flavour as well. Even brood war had way less pressure on it to be balanced than sc2 had from release.
I think that our crusade for perfect balance will always stand in the way of ultimately interesting units on an individual level. It is just too complex of an analysis to make, at least in my oppinion.
|
This is an interesting post, but I want to raise an issue with your logic itself. I'm having trouble understanding your distinction between individual freedom and collective freedom. Similarly, I can't tell the difference between a support unit and a unit that you consider to have a lot of depth.
Consider: You mention broodlords and tanks as an example of being defenseless against air, and therefore worthless alone. But this was true of siege tanks in Brood War and they formed the core army in almost all games terran played (except M&M vs. zerg and even then you usually got tanks later). You also give the example of corruptors, a unit that is only good for anti-air as a support unit, but then cite the corsair as an example of a unit with individual freedom. You cite the sentry as a support, but in my opinion it does many different things and has been shown to work on its own with drops, on attack and defense, and with many different unit compositions, which seems to fit your definition of a unit with individual freedom.
Honestly, while you seem to have a good idea about making sure that the game has options, your distinction between individual freedom and group freedom is totally impenetrable to me and therefore unhelpful because I can't actually tell what units would fit into which categories.
|
United States4883 Posts
On October 23 2012 17:42 Anarion55 wrote: This is an interesting post, but I want to raise an issue with your logic itself. I'm having trouble understanding your distinction between individual freedom and collective freedom. Similarly, I can't tell the difference between a support unit and a unit that you consider to have a lot of depth.
Consider: You mention broodlords and tanks as an example of being defenseless against air, and therefore worthless alone. But this was true of siege tanks in Brood War and they formed the core army in almost all games terran played (except M&M vs. zerg and even then you usually got tanks later). You also give the example of corruptors, a unit that is only good for anti-air as a support unit, but then cite the corsair as an example of a unit with individual freedom. You cite the sentry as a support, but in my opinion it does many different things and has been shown to work on its own with drops, on attack and defense, and with many different unit compositions, which seems to fit your definition of a unit with individual freedom.
Honestly, while you seem to have a good idea about making sure that the game has options, your distinction between individual freedom and group freedom is totally impenetrable to me and therefore unhelpful because I can't actually tell what units would fit into which categories.
I perhaps need a slight edit of this post, as I simply just wrote it and posted it.
I understand what you're saying, but perhaps I can explain. First of all, seige tanks in BW were INCREDIBLE, they needed far less babysitting than Blords do in SC2; in many cases, you could leave 3-4 to control a ramp, etc, something you can't do with the WoL tank, which has unfortunately fallen into the role of "support unit".
Corruptors have one use: killing things in the air. Corsairs had tons of uses and were infinitely interesting because of their speed and their unique attack. In my opinion, giving corruptors the ability to stop building production (like in the beta) far increases their utility, and makes them much more interesting, but in their current state, they have no dynamic ability other than make corruptors -> kill air units.
Sentry is totally useless on its own. Sentries have to be supported by gateway units, and most of the time, gateway units have to be babysat with sentries. This is one of the biggest problems of the game; the fact that almost all of protoss's gateway units have great viability with one another, but generally perform terribly on their own (Although blink stalkers are ALMOST there).
Basically the idea is that you don't want to be pigeon-holed into having to play a certain way or get a certain combination of units because only those certain groups are viable as a whole. You want to have free, dynamic parts that can move around and allow the player the ability to chose how to combine groups. I think a good example of this in SC2 is hellion/banshee. Both hellions and banshees are dynamic, interesting units that both do quite a plethora of interesting things on their own. While we see that you could just as easily go marine/banshee, we have seen innovations with this unit combo through clever ideas and good control.
|
Ironically, the units that fill this role in SC2 are the units most everyone hates: marines, roaches, zerglings, (infestors?).
That isn't legit information. We have had ''most hated unit pools'' before, few people dislike the marine. The marine is great.
Collosi won the ''most hated unit award''.
Agree with alot of other things you say but i think your a bit too hard on the BW/SC2 analogy. And the swarm host doesn't have to be that one-dimensional, i think it has potential for a little ''freedom''.
|
Someone get this on BNet HotS forum now! :O
|
you mean like blizzard keeps on saying that they dont care about widow mines being used for aggression instead of map control? that they are OK with the core being used offensively?
Stop thinking so one-dimensional and think back to the early days of SC2 and how everything started. There was no meant to be and blizzard hardly ever said something like that. Things just settled in a certain way and now people "always knew it from the start, because it was designed in X,Y way". That the community was wrong a thousand times with those claims and that they are only right with the current ones, is just a matter of claiming everything from the start, so somethings got to be right.
|
This is one of the best posts on game design, and philosophy I've read here ever but to be honest I'm quite unsure if these things are unknown to the Blizz staff as of yet, or would make them change their mind about how they think their game should be developed. Even if they would listen( which they haven't done in the past, not on a regular basis at least) I am afraid we are too late into the game to make such huge overhauls - although I'm always arguing that the beta is exactly the place and time to do so, I don't see reality working in our favor.
|
United States4883 Posts
On October 23 2012 15:44 EatThePath wrote:+ Show Spoiler + The properties that are desirable belong to the dynamics, not the units themselves. It's very hard to design good open-ended dynamics because they are emergent -- you can't see directly from the pieces you have what they're going to be capable of, unless they follow very basic rules which makes a trivial game.
I believe you're looking at BW through rose-tinted glasses. It has some cool unexpected dynamics, and it is better than SC2 in that regard, but it's unfair to say BW was that much better at letting units perform different roles on the fly. The thing that gave BW more magic was that any given engagement seemed to have lots of opportunities to gain an edge. It actually didn't have that many but it feels like it because of the unit control and pathing limits. So you had to do APM triage on the fly. That's like playing checkers and spinning plates at the same time. SC2 doesn't have this as much, for a lot of reasons, mostly because of unit control and pathing.
The units in SC2 also have bad design features and I wish they were better. But it's easy to overplay the design-based success of BW. Everything you mentioned from BW that isn't basic micro is just a quirk of the engine. The performance of things in SC2 is much more uniform and that comes out in how similar things feel.
The best way to fix this from a unit design standpoint would be to try and create units that perform much better when you babysit them. But that will only go so far.
To get back to the main idea of your post, individual freedom, I think you're actually naming a deeper design phenomenon with the language of dynamics (similar to what I said above). Not that this is bad -- the job of design is to connect mechanics and dynamics through explicit choices and general guidance. You make the game pieces, you don't directly make the gameplay.
What you really mean by individual freedom is that any given focal point for player choice has lots of complex ramifications. Some of them might be powerful and most should probably be irrelevant 99% of the time. But the benefit of saturating a game with these options is that you have an overflow of things that might matter. Most of the time things are straightforward, otherwise you boggle players with incomprehensible dynamics. But there is always an opportunity to turn a game situation on its ear by taking advantage of an unusually relevant dynamic. That's the kind of thing that makes you say "oh shit, good call, genius play". But if you overburden players with a huge list of complicated things the pieces do, they can't even get to the dynamics because they are just trying to remember their list of options, let alone form an idea of what will happen after choosing one.
Thus the ideal is a distribution of dynamics that weights towards some basic principles but always leave room for unlikely situations, all of which arises out of pieces and rules that are as simple as possible.
In the case of BW and SC2, we get a lot of mileage out of the fact that units have a certain damage, fire rate, hp, armor, range, and they can be anywhere in a 2D plane throughout time, and you can manipulate the last two. That's a lot of variability! Obviously the sheer multitude of possibility doesn't mean anything can happen -- speedlings surrounding a hellion squad will have the same result no matter where it happens on the map. But depending on the other things in the game, like terrain features, small adjustment can make a big difference. And that's not even considering all the splashy unit abilities that provide additional tactical and strategic depth.
That's why I point to the not-as-sexy "pathing" for BW's dynamics. This is where you are manipulating the units, throughout XY and T. Homogeneous SC2 engine makes homogeneous SC2 dynamics.
And lots of other complicating factors, like unit design. I didn't even get into interchangeability, which relates to what you were saying. But the "hardcounter"-iness of SC2 units makes them less interchangeable than BW units, so they can't perform as many roles.
Nice post, I like the lens of "freedom" for evaluating design. Looking forward to more.
I like this response quite a bit, especially in pointing out that SC2 units kind of feel like a "hard-counter". Thank you for your input, I'll see if I can work that into what I was trying to say. You're quite right, though, that Blizzard had no clue how excellent things like lurkers or corsairs would end up being, but that doesn't change the fact that they were both given (simple) unique attacks and corsair was even given an ability to influence the battlefield. They both had multiple purposes based on those little things alone.
When we take a step back and look at units like colossus, we can say that it has a unique attack and a unique ability. But it's okay to just say "Well, the colossus HAD promise...but it's actually just badly designed." That's like if we took a chess piece and made it attack only forward, allowing it to jump over your own pieces; obviously, that would give some interesting choices, but once it gets to the other side of the board, there are no more choices and it's...bad.
On October 23 2012 16:17 MasterCynical wrote:+ Show Spoiler + What you're referring to as "freedom" and "depth" is commonly referred to as "strategy vs execution".
In BW, micro was arguably alot more important, this made the "excecution" of your play alot more important. Micro was needed for pretty much every single unit at a high level of play. It made every unit seem to have alot more "depth" because a hard counter suddenly becomes a soft counter in the hands of a good player.
Here in SC2, its pretty much all about building the counters and the strategy. ie you build roaches/lings and ill just build collosus and you'll just build corruptors. You get broodlords and ill just get vikings and you'll just get vikings. etc. Of course the micro is still here, it just plays a smaller role compared to strategy. This limits depth because, hard counters will always be hard counters no matter how hard you micro. Units will only be viable in certain situations unlike in BW. Of course there are examples of BW like units here in SC2 such as Terran bio(thank god they decided to take out the warhound). Maybe phoenix play or blink stalker micro. But thats pretty much it. I cant think of anything else.
Just a TLDR version of your main points.
Thank you, that's pretty much an easy way to put it. The fact is that many units in SC2 have very little to do other than split, kite, or abuse chokes. In addition with the feeling of "hard-counter" units, this makes SC2 feel all about the army composition. It leads us to a point where we just rush to a lategame and try to get the "perfect composition" and do a perfect job microing. I would love to see something in zerg that's just as effective and useful as infestor/Blord, you know?
On October 23 2012 16:58 Fenris420 wrote:+ Show Spoiler + This is a great topic and part of why I think it is great is because I disagree with some of the points. Still, it is well written and makes a good case.
I don't know how relevant this will be to the topic, but it is the first thing I came to think about when I read it:
When diablo 3 was released, the design team promised millions of possible rune and skill paths. This was mostly due to the fact that diablo 2 was loved because of its replayability. They wanted a game with so many options that nobody would ever get tired of it.
Problem is that with D3, as with all new games, both designers and players expect balance. In other words we want each of those abilities and also each of their combinations to be equally strong compared to others. This in stark contrast to how the expectations were for D2 back in the days.
The result? D3 was released with millions of combinations of skills, most of them doing the same or very similar things. Sure, the game was fairly balanced, but the depth of gameplay mechanics was just not there. A few months in, there remained one or two builds that were viable in inferno for each class. At least that was how it looked to me.
The issue with making each unit viable on its own, without the synergy of a larger group, or at least not a pre-defined group is that some units will then simply be better than others. It is also very hard to say which unit will be better before players get to play them. Especially why they would be better. The result of that is that you must make each units individual "gimmick" less extreme to avoid imbalances. Then you suddenly lose a lot of flavour as well. Even brood war had way less pressure on it to be balanced than sc2 had from release.
I think that our crusade for perfect balance will always stand in the way of ultimately interesting units on an individual level. It is just too complex of an analysis to make, at least in my oppinion.
I understand what you're saying here, but if you see my 3rd paragraph, I talk about how each part cannot fill too many roles. Of course, this is complicated by the fact that SC2 is like 5 dimensions, including time and "being able to get it". For example, we can see that a BC is MUCH better than 8 marines, but comes much later in the game and is dangerous to make without a smooth transition. Either way, I feel the problem you state with Diablo 3 is that too many spells filled the roles of others, which made many spells impotent or useless; the answer to this problem isn't making the spells less unique, but rather making more roles for spells to fit into. The more general roles that can be filled (snaring, stunning, damaging, shielding, etc), the more pieces we can add into the mix without stepping on one another's toes.
On October 23 2012 21:51 Zorgaz wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Ironically, the units that fill this role in SC2 are the units most everyone hates: marines, roaches, zerglings, (infestors?). That isn't legit information. We have had ''most hated unit pools'' before, few people dislike the marine. The marine is great. Collosi won the ''most hated unit award''. Agree with alot of other things you say but i think your a bit too hard on the BW/SC2 analogy. And the swarm host doesn't have to be that one-dimensional, i think it has potential for a little ''freedom''.
You're QUITE right, hahaha. I think that SH has some potential, but it's going to need something special...right now I don't see it going very far other than a unit that you mass, burrow, and forget about. It's just...a little lackluster at the moment; I can't imagine seeing a crazy micro technique that turns the tide of a battle by using the SH.
On October 23 2012 22:27 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler + you mean like blizzard keeps on saying that they dont care about widow mines being used for aggression instead of map control? that they are OK with the core being used offensively?
Stop thinking so one-dimensional and think back to the early days of SC2 and how everything started. There was no meant to be and blizzard hardly ever said something like that. Things just settled in a certain way and now people "always knew it from the start, because it was designed in X,Y way". That the community was wrong a thousand times with those claims and that they are only right with the current ones, is just a matter of claiming everything from the start, so somethings got to be right.
You are right in this. I don't claim to know everything about the game or say that Blizzard is screwing up, etc. I don't actually have an agenda with this post; I just like the idea of game design, and I wanted to share some of my thoughts with the TL community.
In any case, what I say about how the game SHOULD feel is true. I think it's important to keep something like this in mind with feedback, especially. As gamers, we want to have a feeling that these changes actually change the game dynamic in a certain way.
TO ALL OF YOU OTHER BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE:
Thank you so much!! I am absolutely blown away by the responses to this article so far!! I had someone post this topic on BNet forums for Blizzard and other to look at (no activity there yet....), but I really don't expect this to change Blizzard's mind or fix some aspect of the game. I just think it's good for everyone to think in these terms, both in the design team and in the players giving feedback. It's important to let Blizzard know if units feel too one-dimensional and need to be able to fill another role.
|
On October 23 2012 21:04 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 17:42 Anarion55 wrote: This is an interesting post, but I want to raise an issue with your logic itself. I'm having trouble understanding your distinction between individual freedom and collective freedom. Similarly, I can't tell the difference between a support unit and a unit that you consider to have a lot of depth.
Consider: You mention broodlords and tanks as an example of being defenseless against air, and therefore worthless alone. But this was true of siege tanks in Brood War and they formed the core army in almost all games terran played (except M&M vs. zerg and even then you usually got tanks later). You also give the example of corruptors, a unit that is only good for anti-air as a support unit, but then cite the corsair as an example of a unit with individual freedom. You cite the sentry as a support, but in my opinion it does many different things and has been shown to work on its own with drops, on attack and defense, and with many different unit compositions, which seems to fit your definition of a unit with individual freedom.
Honestly, while you seem to have a good idea about making sure that the game has options, your distinction between individual freedom and group freedom is totally impenetrable to me and therefore unhelpful because I can't actually tell what units would fit into which categories. I perhaps need a slight edit of this post, as I simply just wrote it and posted it. I understand what you're saying, but perhaps I can explain. First of all, seige tanks in BW were INCREDIBLE, they needed far less babysitting than Blords do in SC2; in many cases, you could leave 3-4 to control a ramp, etc, something you can't do with the WoL tank, which has unfortunately fallen into the role of "support unit". Corruptors have one use: killing things in the air. Corsairs had tons of uses and were infinitely interesting because of their speed and their unique attack. In my opinion, giving corruptors the ability to stop building production (like in the beta) far increases their utility, and makes them much more interesting, but in their current state, they have no dynamic ability other than make corruptors -> kill air units. Sentry is totally useless on its own. Sentries have to be supported by gateway units, and most of the time, gateway units have to be babysat with sentries. This is one of the biggest problems of the game; the fact that almost all of protoss's gateway units have great viability with one another, but generally perform terribly on their own (Although blink stalkers are ALMOST there). Basically the idea is that you don't want to be pigeon-holed into having to play a certain way or get a certain combination of units because only those certain groups are viable as a whole. You want to have free, dynamic parts that can move around and allow the player the ability to chose how to combine groups. I think a good example of this in SC2 is hellion/banshee. Both hellions and banshees are dynamic, interesting units that both do quite a plethora of interesting things on their own. While we see that you could just as easily go marine/banshee, we have seen innovations with this unit combo through clever ideas and good control.
I'm going to be a little bit difficult here, but it's with the intention of helping clarify your ideas because I think you're onto something here.
So, I would take issue with the siege tank example. It's not just that the siege tank was a better unit in brood war, it's also that the goliath was produced from the same building in PvT and that marines were a core part of the composition in TvZ. The goliath was such a powerful anti-air unit that any attempt by protoss to tech switch to air short of carriers was pointless and the terran could anticipate carriers in various ways (notably hax scans by a lot of top pros) and begin preparing goliaths in mass numbers because they had so many factories. On top of that, zealots, especially with speed and a shuttle helping, could wreck tanks, and it was only with vultures and mines helping that the terran death push in Brood War worked so well. It's an example of a highly synergistic composition where every unit being produced in the factory worked together for victory when they would have failed alone (as dragoons run over goliaths and vultures without tank support).
Similarly, the only difference between the corsair and the corrupter is timing and unit synergy. The corsair is able to prepare the way for DTs with its anti-air and scout the zerg whereas corrupters don't directly support any other units (though they do support broodlords) and come late enough that zerg has already committed to a tech. But neither of those is related to the unit itself, they're issues of synergy and placement in the tech tree. If I made the corrupter an identical unit but let you get it earlier, you could easily use it to scout and force the enemy off of air in preparation for broodlords and ultras.
I would also point out that the zealot and the zergling are not and have never been able to be used alone. They have specific functions such as backstabs and rushes, but a ton of zealots or zerglings gets destroyed by aoe in both Brood War and SC2. The marine in Brood War is even worse since it was the marine+medic combo that made them into a powerful unit in TvZ and the dropship that makes them mobile.
I actually think that what you're trying to reach is something related to the ability to use units in small numbers and move them around the map. In that regard the corsair was notably different than the corrupter because its high speed meant that you could go around harassing with just a few corsairs and not worry about losing them, whereas corrupters out alone are highly vulnerable. And protoss in Brood War spent their time with their dragoons out on the map vs. terran sparring with vultures because harass and map control were critical, especially in the early parts of that matchup.
If that's what you're after, I actually think that better static defense for all races would be the best way to lead to more independent units moving around. If protoss could hold a push even if it messed up and lost a few zealots and stalkers, or if zerg could avoid getting run over after losing a group of roaches it would become much safer to take the existing units and maneuver on the map.
|
Russian Federation216 Posts
let me sign for every word OP wrote here... absolutely true, blizzard should stop telling people what to do "terran make mech!!! toss play air!!! zerg make queens!!! and do a really usaful units
|
|
|
|