EPT[M] (2) ESV Deception by prodiG - Page 2
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Asfano
Norway17 Posts
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Manimal_pro
Romania991 Posts
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Ragoo
Germany2773 Posts
On the other hand I'm not a fan of the layout. Circle Syndrome :/ That backdoor is kinda unnecessary, if it wasn't there I would like the map a lot more. Like right now I feel neither player will feel comfortable taking a base past the fourth. I also think you could stretch the map out more. | ||
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prodiG
Canada2016 Posts
On January 09 2012 22:07 Manimal_pro wrote: this map screams i love zerling runby's, not sure if destructible rocks allowing access to the main is such a good idea in most matchups If you get killed by a backdoor ling runby my money's on you didn't scout/prepare some kind of wall at the backdoor/have anything spotting the rocks so you can react. The rocks are the standard 2000hp 3 armor so it will take a combined one thousand unupgraded Zergling hits to destroy the rocks. That takes almost a full minute in-game, well enough time to react. I think backdoors are a pretty unexplored feature in SC2 since most players have nightmares from Blistering Sands but I say fuck'em ;D On January 09 2012 22:14 Ragoo wrote: I like that you are never frightened to use cool features in your map. Bridges and those rly small ramps are a great way to discourage 1a deathball games : ) On the other hand I'm not a fan of the layout. Circle Syndrome :/ That backdoor is kinda unnecessary, if it wasn't there I would like the map a lot more. Like right now I feel neither player will feel comfortable taking a base past the fourth. I also think you could stretch the map out more. I don't think the circle sydrome on this map really works against it. The pathing is pretty unique so I don't think you'll see it play identical to every other 2p map out there. The backdoor is there because... well it's a half-pseudo-destination port and it wouldn't be destination without a backdoor! I also like the idea of taking a 4th by breaking down the rocks in some strange and interesting circumstances. Again as usual, backdoors need testing and if it's broke as hell and I can't think of a decent solution it will get the axe in favor of a few other ideas I have floating around in my head | ||
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vdAcE
8 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Mammel
Finland189 Posts
And the base right next to opponents base seems a bit strange, for the player whose main is next to it, it's way too far to defend, and opponent can't really take a base that you can siege from your main either. Backdoor, no thanks. And as toss, I personally don't like a map where you can't Forge FE with 3 big buildings on ramp or do a nexus wall with 2 buildings. | ||
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FoxyMayhem
624 Posts
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Fearlezz
Croatia176 Posts
Also, are there LOS blockers on both side of the rocks? It's kinda hard to see from the overview since it's not the best quality. If there are on both sides, wouldn't it be better to just have them on the outside so an attack is easier to spot? If they are just on the outside or beneath the rocks just ignore this. I also really like Gfire's suggestion: + Show Spoiler + On January 09 2012 17:49 Gfire wrote: There's also the option of having a wider main ramp partially blocked by destructibles like on Crevasse, which can allow more army movement through in the later game (something which is underused imo.) Apart from that, really love the map, would really like to see some games on it. | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
Looks good man | ||
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ihasaKAROT
Netherlands4730 Posts
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DoubleDare
Canada48 Posts
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AdrianHealey
Belgium480 Posts
This map does not have BSS when you are on two base, but it seems that it does have that syndrome when you have three base. And that could be a big problem. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
what i think: Once you go over two bases, army positioning to defend three and especially four bases the backdoor is awfull to defend. i mean it is nice a well known mapmaker is brave enough to put something up for the players and forces them to adept to something different, but the backdoor together with how late bases are set up do not work well i am afraid. actually i waited all the time for someone bringing it up or say circle syndrom etc. the layout twist a lot and brings your late bases very close to your enemy. While you have two sides to defend, the map layout does not really promote expanding ccw. the strange terrain that leads into the main hugging low base in order to defend the backdoor from the outside: strange. then the visuals... with all due respect, but the look outdated already and rushed. i think what the map tries is great, but what it achieves is already achieved by different other maps. for me there are too many gimmicks to be honest and many small issues. so please, as much as we all like prodiG, lets be honest, this map is not great or super progressive, but a start that needs more work and polishing. + Show Spoiler + personal opinion, yes. and i never claim what i write and analyse is objective, etc. edit: after writing this post i realized some similarities to one old map of mine that does not have a backdoor, but bi-directional expansion options and i think with more experience i can remake it and make it more technical and solid. your map really motivated me to try that idea again without being afraid to be hit with a circle syndrom argument by Barrin or Ragoo  . | ||
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Vilonis
United States130 Posts
[Map with some markings] ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TA9uF.jpg) So, you expand (your main is the bottom left) to your nat, then to the base marked 3, then 4. The purple line from 4 to out front of your natural represents the 'front' if you will that would keep your expos safe (ignore the back door for now). Instead of patrolling your army along that line, which would be, well, weird, you take the high ground pod, around the watch tower circled in purple. That high ground pod is critical, just like it was in BW's Match Point. With the vision it provides, you can keep all of you expos (nat, 3rd, 4th) safe. Now for the back door. In the early game, put a pylon by the rocks then wall off the ramp with gate ways and put up a cannon, who cares, just keep it safe. By the time you get to the mid-late game, where you have 4 bases and your army is at you high ground pod, there is a different reason that your main is safe from attack, or, why you are boned if you attack your enemies main. In the picture, imagine moving your army from your pod to A (the point above your 4th). Your enemy has his army a his pod, and now has two options: move along the lower red line, attacking your nat or third/running up into the main, or go for your 4th and trap your army in between the small ramp that is the backdoor and the bridge between your 4th and A. The second option put another way, is, the enemy moves to your 4th trapping you at A, if they can prevent you from getting up the ramp. Remember, the backdoor ramp to your enemies main is small. Getting a huge army up it isn't all that easy, and getting a small army up is no different than doing a drop, which happens all the time on all maps. I marked the base 'C' because it seemed a bit odd to me at first. Why would you ever take it? I thought of it as a 3rd, or 4th, or whatever, but it makes you immensely vulnerable. Then I realized, it is not vulnerable if you control your opponents high ground pod. That is, after you have taken your side of the map, up to the base that I have marked as 4, you can push down and take your opponents high ground pod, securing C for yourself. That is, if you can beat his army there of course. Your opponent can then go out of his backdoor and try to kill your 4th or a possible base at A, but then you could kill his equivalent 4th and push his 3rd etc. Of course all these "the he could do this" is really just a way of saying that this map leads to many important decisions of great importance. ProdiG, this map is awesome, I want to see pros play on it SO BAD. Keep of the GREAT work, you are the man, who in a year when SCII gameplay has evolved and everyone is playing on ESV maps, the community will thank for your hard work and the hard work of your team. And your guys' incredible ability to make badass maps. I hope I explained everything clearly and didn't leave out any of the explanation I had in my head. If I did, tell me so I can correct it. Edit: Trying to fix the image | ||
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
If the low base was a more regular base you could take it. Until then my argument is valid imho. | ||
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Vilonis
United States130 Posts
On January 10 2012 08:29 Samro225am wrote: @Vilonis: After taking fourth you take over the second Xwt in order to expand to your base C? Seriously? Why not just kill third/fourth/fifth once you have both Xwt? If the low base was a more regular base you could take it. Until then my argument is valid imho. Let me get this straight... After a potential 5 bases (the 4 I numbered and the base at A), it is unreasonable to force a confrontation in the middle? How is that bad... in any way? In a way, it is like taking the bases in the top and bottom middle on Shakuras Plateau. You need to shut down the middle to make them safe. Would these expos (C and its counterpart) be taken every game? No, but there are plenty of 'contested' expansions on maps that are rarely taken except in crazy games. Which is good because with all the choices available to you on this map, there will be some pretty crazy games. Oh, and perhaps I overstated it. If your opponents high ground is contested, then C is safe. (By contested I mean that your army is on the top of the bridges leading to C but your oppent has a presence that stops you from wandering into his pod and killing his 3rd and 4th). This means that your opponent could still be hanging onto his 3rd and 4th, while, perhaps, pushing out of his backdoor so he can still put on pressure. I maintain that this map is badass. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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