Map analyzer pictures! Look at them, i know the overview is very confusing, i tried my best. + Show Spoiler +
Welcome to my city! My name is Superouman, the mayor of this town and I will be your guide. Cars, buildings and trees are indestructible and block vision. The goal of this map is air play while still making ground play well. To do so, i made a very long ground distance and a very short air distance (very similar to desert oasis). I also used a third placement similar to the one on "ESV Yinfei" and the distance between the third and the main is very short by air but long by ground. and to finish i experimented with islands. There is only one ground path between the two mains, so it needs to be very large to allow some flanking.
In the first versions of this map, the main's and third's cliffs were touching the center, this caused blink stalker to be completely broken because they had to travel less time between the bases than the defender. Because of this, i reduced the width of the the third's cliff and totally removed it from the main.
Through testing, every race race has pros and cons with islands and it somehow balances out.
Zerg: - Pros: can nydus and then send drones to directly saturate the expand, can defend with spines, spores, nydus teleporting and mutalisk map control. - Cons: have to rally point the hatchery to the nydus, harder to defend if the nydus is sniped but you can preemptively defend it Terran: - Pros: mule, pf, turrets - Cons: hard to reinforce with troops if it's heavely attacked (only with medivacs) Protoss: - Pros: very easy to defend with cannons and warp-ins, blink stalkers can go in and out of the islands (defensive or offensive) but as with the main and 3rd cliffs, the flow is limited - Cons: hardest to send workers, need to send probes manually through warp prisms
Xel'Naga towers: None
Distances: Similar to Desert Oasis' - Main to main: 65sec - Nat to nat: 50sec
Creep and line of sight blockers under cars and buildings: + Show Spoiler +
Decoration: The decoration made some restriction on the layout, the streets and buildings had to be well placed. I was looking at the existing city maps and i wasn't satisfied by the look, especially metalopolis, what the fuck a unique circular street on the roof of a gigantic building? Am i high on lsd? No, so i've looked into the editor and what could let me do a real city and the answer is "Tarsonis building" doodad! The only issue with that doodad was the fact that flying units may be hidden inside buildings so i lowered or/and reduced their size. Then i had to find a way to block streets on unpathable terrain, cars and trucks! Perfect! But there was an issue on how to visually block the pavement, there are no human doodads, the only solution for me was to use streetlights and benches, the result is okay. However, there is one issue overall, when i show the map to someone, none of them are certain if they can destroy cars or if it is totally unpathable. I think once the player checked these two possibilities in his first game, his doubts will be erased to i think it's ok.
Eh.. you know my concerns from the skype chat. Other than that the aesthetics and suburban feel to it just blows me away like bean bags hitting teletubbies.
This is of course an experimental map, maps with emphasis on islands and air play had to be done someday so let's try on this one. I won't lie that i have no clue where i am going balance-wise but from testgames, the gameplay was really peculiar and interesting.
The map thread had to be my 1k post but i missed it T_T
This is just... but... I... What is this, I don't even...
Honestly, really exciting stuff. Not sure about the 4 Islands but I respect the "It has to be tested" attitude. Really amazing job at making the map look so large and lively.
With current PvZ I can see getting a mothership archon HT carrier ball off 3-4 (1 island possibly) bases without much the zerg can do except econ/tech like mad in response, how could they attack that base layout? For this reason and because that close island 4th is pretty nice for terran (siegable, close to reinforce with medivacs), I would say that close island should have an opening to middle to prevent a cluster of 4 bases that can only be reached by air by zerg (assuming walloff at natural).
But since this is experimental, whatever, it's really well put together! I can totally see epic island battles. Please post replays of cool games if you can.
I love the "Lets test this" attitude. SC2 while one year old, still has lots of testing to do with regards to what can be done and i often find that some mapmakers is always "stick to the rules, do not deviate and btw make sure your map hurts terran as much as possible(sorry my bias got through)".
This one through is controlversal to say the least. Islands is something even blizzard gave up on and they aren't as quick as tournements when checking through stuff that are potentially broken(see Gold bases).
Another thing is the layout. I get you wanted a city map but you are mixing a map concept that is Up in the air with astetics that are down on the ground. The city just signalizes ground-focus but the way the path is set up means you should be a little more keen on the air play. If it was setup like say scrap station then it would have signalized Airfocussed map.
On January 07 2012 07:16 Sumadin wrote: I love the "Lets test this" attitude. SC2 while one year old, still has lots of testing to do with regards to what can be done and i often find that some mapmakers is always "stick to the rules, do not deviate and btw make sure your map hurts terran as much as possible(sorry my bias got through)".
Totally agree.
I was really hoping all those cars would be destructible when I saw the overview. That would be a lot of fun.
Everytime I see ESV (2) in the custom map section and a map name I haven't seen before, I get so excited. You guys make awesome maps. Keep up the great work guys, one day these maps will be in tournaments, hopefully soon.
On January 07 2012 08:17 Vilonis wrote: Everytime I see ESV (2) in the custom map section and a map name I haven't seen before, I get so excited. You guys make awesome maps. Keep up the great work guys, one day these maps will be in tournaments, hopefully soon.
I don't like the idea of 4 islands. I feel that it constricts an otherwise mostly macro-style map to more of a 2-3 base play. While I find the aesthetic of the map quite intriguing and awesome, I don't find that it's a very good map, balance wise. The attitude of "let's test this" is fine, but I don't understand why we should test an extreme version of a concept that is generally ill-regarded (islands).
In either case, the map is beautiful, and perhaps it is hard for me to visual how it works because of the beautiful aesthetics! Keep up the good work.
Infested City remake could be cool. Besides, Plexa might be right. One of the islands becoming semi-island is a good concept, maybe double rocks to delay it even more? I wonder how could Tiberium Spires (neutral buildings giving small steady income of money every x seconds, can't remember) from CnC3 work in SC2. It could be an interesting thing to put into the maps.
Looks better in game, the overview looks boring, just like a satelite image of a town or city does.
Although it's a cool concept, I didn't quite think the sunrays fit in. It is also a bit confusing deciphering the layout. The layout itself though is a subject of interest. Against straight on attacks, holding 3 bases is extremely easy, but with reapers/coloxen or drops, attacking the nat from behind or hitting the 3rd are extrememly easy. Not sure how this map would hold up at the highest levels of play, but it really does force you to go drops or feel completely, hopelessly inadequate.
Love the detail shots though, they make me feel completely, hopelessly inadequate.
On January 07 2012 09:49 Kurumi wrote: Infested City remake could be cool. Besides, Plexa might be right. One of the islands becoming semi-island is a good concept, maybe double rocks to delay it even more? I wonder how could Tiberium Spires (neutral buildings giving small steady income of money every x seconds, can't remember) from CnC3 work in SC2. It could be an interesting thing to put into the maps.
That is interesting, but do you really want to add more experimental stuff to an already experimental map?
On January 07 2012 09:49 Kurumi wrote: Infested City remake could be cool. Besides, Plexa might be right. One of the islands becoming semi-island is a good concept, maybe double rocks to delay it even more? I wonder how could Tiberium Spires (neutral buildings giving small steady income of money every x seconds, can't remember) from CnC3 work in SC2. It could be an interesting thing to put into the maps.
That is interesting, but do you really want to add more experimental stuff to an already experimental map?
Yeah, probably not for this map but I think thats a very interesting idea for future consideration.
Neutral buildings that give mins/gas could help produce BWish style massive front macro games that are otherwise impossible with the SC2 worker supply and efficiency problem. Could even make them very hardy but destructable.....
Would have to be made as a UMS though...but there are BW precedents like that map with the teleporters.
This map looks very choke-y in areas which is of course, Zerg unfavorable, but I'm Protoss so I guess that's okay .
Having the 3rd being only accessible via the nat on ground means that players must use air/drops/ or Blink/Reapers (if possible) in order to harass it. A small ramp with rocks where you have the path-able area sticking out towards the center of the map would make this base vulnerable to ground attacks and would also provide players the ability to push across the map without having to go all the way through the middle.
Having that option could create very interesting scenarios in games because of the potential for flank attacks and it also means that players would have to be very map aware because attacks could comes in via the Nat or 3rd base and catch them guarding the wrong expo.
On January 07 2012 10:12 Dexington wrote: Just looking at the overview blows my mind. I have no idea what is going on at first glance. Thank god for the analyser pictures.
I have the same problem. This is really hard to read.
Don't like the third it's way too easy to defend. Also while I like the encouragement to do air play, it's simply not balanced in SC2 wich would make this a totally terran favoured map. But I really like the looks of it, the city vibe and the close streets leading into big battlefields
On January 07 2012 09:49 Kurumi wrote: Infested City remake could be cool. Besides, Plexa might be right. One of the islands becoming semi-island is a good concept, maybe double rocks to delay it even more? I wonder how could Tiberium Spires (neutral buildings giving small steady income of money every x seconds, can't remember) from CnC3 work in SC2. It could be an interesting thing to put into the maps.
That is interesting, but do you really want to add more experimental stuff to an already experimental map?
Yeah, probably not for this map but I think thats a very interesting idea for future consideration.
Neutral buildings that give mins/gas could help produce BWish style massive front macro games that are otherwise impossible with the SC2 worker supply and efficiency problem. Could even make them very hardy but destructable.....
Would have to be made as a UMS though...but there are BW precedents like that map with the teleporters.
Who cares it'd be UMS? CnC3 neutral buildings were awesome. Those "Spires" are actually called Spikes. Now I understand why I couldn't find any info about them. Neutral buildings from CnC3 we don't need to restrict to those, but what about neutral shield generators?
On January 07 2012 10:12 Dexington wrote: Just looking at the overview blows my mind. I have no idea what is going on at first glance. Thank god for the analyser pictures.
yeah, but after taking a bit of time to digest it, im really interested. Its so different from other maps that you can't really use past knowledge to judge it, pretty much have to play it
This map is pretty sick. It's come a long way too.
My main concern is that it's extremely hard to tell that there are four islands. Honestly I think you should just put some level 0 terrain between the islands and the center so players can tell where their units can walk and where they can't. And I support the semi-island movement!
Just got done playing it and I really don't like it. :\
Too much emphasis on islands and the Main/Natural/3rd layout I just don't like the setup at all. Your main/3rd feel like they'll be super exposed to air units, as well as tanks can decimate it. With the unpathable ground between the main & the 3rd mutas/drops can just go back and forth between the two and thus spread your army out waaay too thin, plus the ground distance between the two is huge.
Looking at the minimap is extremely confusing as well because you really have no clue where you can move and where you can't so most likely as a spectator they won't like it either.
Islands, although a neat feature most likely won't be used by any race. Protoss, as it is now almost never take islands, with warp ins and cannons they could but drops & muta play are already a problem for protoss so trying to defend an island thats way out of the way could be extremely difficult. Terrans could, but the islands as I said are pretty far away and since you said stalkers can blink into the islands and mutas are full air control terran will almost never take islands. This leaves zergs that could nydus and since they'll have mutas could take them fairly easily, although that means they have to start using nydus/drops more.
One giant attack path in the middle makes it feel quite dull.
I'm sorry Superouman, but I just really dislike this map.
On January 08 2012 13:44 SidianTheBard wrote: Just got done playing it and I really don't like it. :\
Too much emphasis on islands and the Main/Natural/3rd layout I just don't like the setup at all. Your main/3rd feel like they'll be super exposed to air units, as well as tanks can decimate it. With the unpathable ground between the main & the 3rd mutas/drops can just go back and forth between the two and thus spread your army out waaay too thin, plus the ground distance between the two is huge.
Looking at the minimap is extremely confusing as well because you really have no clue where you can move and where you can't so most likely as a spectator they won't like it either.
Islands, although a neat feature most likely won't be used by any race. Protoss, as it is now almost never take islands, with warp ins and cannons they could but drops & muta play are already a problem for protoss so trying to defend an island thats way out of the way could be extremely difficult. Terrans could, but the islands as I said are pretty far away and since you said stalkers can blink into the islands and mutas are full air control terran will almost never take islands. This leaves zergs that could nydus and since they'll have mutas could take them fairly easily, although that means they have to start using nydus/drops more.
One giant attack path in the middle makes it feel quite dull.
I'm sorry Superouman, but I just really dislike this map.
Most of your arguments were about how you don´t like harrassment and drops. You noticed that the map is trying to support this airplay? The too-many-island problem still exists though.
its a very very nice looking map, but has some major flaws like having too many island expos, and also having the first 3 bases too ez to defend, causing this map to be unfavoured for zerg. there should be another entrance to the third with destructable rocks.
On January 08 2012 13:44 SidianTheBard wrote: Islands, although a neat feature most likely won't be used by any race. Protoss, as it is now almost never take islands, with warp ins and cannons they could but drops & muta play are already a problem for protoss so trying to defend an island thats way out of the way could be extremely difficult. Terrans could, but the islands as I said are pretty far away and since you said stalkers can blink into the islands and mutas are full air control terran will almost never take islands. This leaves zergs that could nydus and since they'll have mutas could take them fairly easily, although that means they have to start using nydus/drops more.
As for Protoss, you just have to go either heavy air or blink stalkers to defend, unlike on other maps where you can do other things. And for Terran the islands are very small so it's very easy to turtle on them, especially for Terran, the master race at turtling. And yeah, Zerg has to use stuff to take/defend/attack islands.
Most of what you say is that players have to play different on this map. And I don't see how this is bad, every map should be played more or less differently. I mean there should be some stable maps which are simply solid, but without interesting maps like this we won't ever see the full potential and variety of Starcraft 2. Also if a map is rly unique it makes it THAT much more powerful if you prepared on it.
I don't think the 4 islands being hard to understand the first time is a problem with the map. It's a problem with the laziness with new maps many players have right now. Maps aren't intended to be played only once anyway... Tho I wish someone could find a way to manipulate the minimap in a way that makes it easier to see where you can't walk.
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