Features: There is a 2 mineral field mineral block between the natural and third base. This is to provide another path between the two bases for the defender as well as perhaps opening up for some sneaky aggression every once in a while. The patches hold 48 minerals each but are rich so it's 7per trip (7workers/2mules per patch!). This makes it so that the defender doesn't really lose any mining efficiency from mining them out while it's still quite a substancial commitment for the aggressor.
Tanks stationed at the third can at most deny one geyser at the natural. ----
Change Log:
-Fixed warp-in spots in mains.
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Thanks in advance for any feedback or comments. Grebliv
Awesome work Grebliv, I think this is your best map yet. It has a solid structure but has some interesting features (gold mineral block to third, and a single-ramp entrance to the fifth. I can't wait to play and see some games on it!!
[edit] The only issue I see with this version is that the fifth could be a bit too hard to take considering its location, but hopefully the small entrance will remedy that.
How'd your testing go with getting a 5th? It seems Zerg would have a hard time getting a 5th and terran/toss could just play like they do on shakuras and make sure zerg is stuck on 4 base.
I also think you should open up the choke around the 5th bases so that large armies are able to sneak by the watchtowers if they take the longer route. Right now the watchtower sees the whole attack path except a little tiny spot on the sides.
Its going to be very easy to sit on 3base on this map, compare the distance the attacker has to move between threatening the nat and third compared to the one the defender has...
I would open up the third a bit to make it more vulnerable
Awesome work! This looks very promising, although coming from a zerg point of view, those exits from the main/nat look painful for storms/colossus, although will have to actually play it to test the openess.
This better get accepted for the GSL, such a boss map, and I haven't even played it!
On January 03 2012 16:28 sob3k wrote: Its going to be very easy to sit on 3base on this map, compare the distance the attacker has to move between threatening the nat and third compared to the one the defender has...
I would open up the third a bit to make it more vulnerable
There is more aspects you have to think about. The nat is relatively vulnerable, meaning it's not on highground and doesn't have the smallest choke. Also the main is pretty big (imo a size that should be standard but compared to maps we use it is big), making it more vulnerable to air/drops/elevatoring. Then you can't take third free without an army (like you could on Terminus/Crevasse/Calm before the Storm) because your enemy can deny that you mine those mineral patches easily (think about hellions in TvZ for example). Once you have established three base it's rather easy yes. The way it kinda has to be in the current metagame to get good longterm matches going. BUT there is still a great emphasis on air vulnerability at the third, which is very good! In nearly every case you want to encourage harrass instead of making bases vulnerable to frontal attacks cos that just encourages you to build big armies and 1a.
Along these lines the middles bases are brilliant as well. They are almost islands cos it's so easy to defend the 1x choke from ground but they also emphasize air harrass!
Overall this is very good work, already this is probably one of my favorites for MotM!
I love how you make ramps look special <3. Already really liked how you did it on Derelict. More people need to this kind of stuff. It doesn't interfere with gameplay, but it makes look maps so much better. Also how you implemented "bridges" by clever use of cliffs/textures and doodads. Can't help but get inspired by your work! Not sure about those ramps which only have one half of them paved with concrete... kinda looks weird.
On January 03 2012 18:04 Hossinaut wrote: If you published this on NA I would u <3
This should be going up on NA right this moment
On January 04 2012 00:16 spinnaker wrote: I love how you make ramps look special <3. Already really liked how you did it on Derelict. More people need to this kind of stuff. It doesn't interfere with gameplay, but it makes look maps so much better. Also how you implemented "bridges" by clever use of cliffs/textures and doodads. Can't help but get inspired by your work! Not sure about those ramps which only have one half of them paved with concrete... kinda looks weird. + Show Spoiler +
Thanks, I'll see about those half paved ramps, If i can make something that looks smoother. I must admit though that the concrete to desert transition can be a bit of a pain especially as the "tiles" are so large.
On January 03 2012 13:56 SidianTheBard wrote: How'd your testing go with getting a 5th? It seems Zerg would have a hard time getting a 5th and terran/toss could just play like they do on shakuras and make sure zerg is stuck on 4 base.
I also think you should open up the choke around the 5th bases so that large armies are able to sneak by the watchtowers if they take the longer route. Right now the watchtower sees the whole attack path except a little tiny spot on the sides.
Looks great though :D
So far It has played out fine. In no way has it been "conclusively" tested though.
I might end up lessening the tower range, not sure.
On January 03 2012 16:28 sob3k wrote: Its going to be very easy to sit on 3base on this map, compare the distance the attacker has to move between threatening the nat and third compared to the one the defender has...
I would open up the third a bit to make it more vulnerable
I kind of wanted to go for an economically oriented map without the free bases that a lot of those have. Most maps usually seem to have either pretty hard'ish thirds (and gravitate towards 2base timings/aggressive play) or have an entirely free natural/third. I kind of wanted to strike a middle ground there. Both setups seem have worked out okay so I want to give this one a go. The base is easy but still touchable.
Also, if Terran only needs 2 mules per patch, can't they just call down 2 and do a really quick attack that way? I mean they WOULD BE losing 2 mules, but if you can kill off your opponents expo, wouldn't that be worth it?
Overall, this map is amazing... but... CIRCLE SYNDROME!!!
On January 06 2012 08:46 FlaShFTW wrote: I love this map.
Also, if Terran only needs 2 mules per patch, can't they just call down 2 and do a really quick attack that way? I mean they WOULD BE losing 2 mules, but if you can kill off your opponents expo, wouldn't that be worth it?
Overall, this map is amazing... but... CIRCLE SYNDROME!!!
I don't know what reason there is not to have more than 2 patches to avoid this. Four to six patches, stacked or in layers, seems strictly better unless for some reason you want to provide for mule attacks.
On January 06 2012 08:46 FlaShFTW wrote: I love this map.
Also, if Terran only needs 2 mules per patch, can't they just call down 2 and do a really quick attack that way? I mean they WOULD BE losing 2 mules, but if you can kill off your opponents expo, wouldn't that be worth it?
Overall, this map is amazing... but... CIRCLE SYNDROME!!!
I don't know what reason there is not to have more than 2 patches to avoid this. Four to six patches, stacked or in layers, seems strictly better unless for some reason you want to provide for mule attacks.
I don't think 2 mules is really worth it. That's a lot of minerals potentially lost... and I can't imagine any Terran doing that in any matchup. It's only really good for in ZvP and ZvT I think.
And there isn't really any circle syndrome here, other than the fifth base (which isn't much of an issue). Circle syndrome is when you have two options for thirds and they each lead to a separate expansion pattern around the outside of the map.
Terran does a tank push at various early to midgame timings that can use a high ground choke to assault the zerg natural, like on the old version of Shakuras. Granted, the reinforce is not even close to the same class of brokeness as Shakuras but you'll recall those games where it seemed impossible for zerg to do anything but expertly delay the push and eventually lose their main and natural. And here, it's high ground.
I agree it's not super likely, but why not just use 4 patches of 24 instead of 2 patches of 48? Anyway it's an easy fix if it ends up needing to be changed. I think it doesn't make sense not to, though -- multiple should be standard for mineral walls on 1-ramps imo.
Map is online on NA now, (was accidentally published as private apparently :S). Please point out any issues you find if you decide to try it out!
About the mineral block. I guess changing it to a stack might be better. Having 4x 24 will still take the same number of mules as 2x 48 though. It'd have to be lower values, something like 1 mule/2 scv per patch and 3 patches (stacked on top of one another = 6 patches per ramp. Then it'd be 3mules/6workers to clear a small gap and 6mules/12workers to remove entirely)?
Terran does a tank push at various early to midgame timings that can use a high ground choke to assault the zerg natural, like on the old version of Shakuras. Granted, the reinforce is not even close to the same class of brokeness as Shakuras but you'll recall those games where it seemed impossible for zerg to do anything but expertly delay the push and eventually lose their main and natural. And here, it's high ground.
I agree it's not super likely, but why not just use 4 patches of 24 instead of 2 patches of 48? Anyway it's an easy fix if it ends up needing to be changed. I think it doesn't make sense not to, though -- multiple should be standard for mineral walls on 1-ramps imo.
This attack would however never be even near as potent as the shakuras one, that one was unflankable and had way way way shorter reinforcement distance. Getting creep up there is rather easy but requires an extra tumor. I guess making the minerals less muleable won't change the world though and might be worthwhile.
On January 08 2012 04:42 Grebliv wrote: About the mineral block. I guess changing it to a stack might be better. Having 4x 24 will still take the same number of mules as 2x 48 though. It'd have to be lower values, something like 1 mule/2 scv per patch and 3 patches (stacked on top of one another = 6 patches per ramp. Then it'd be 3mules/6workers to clear a small gap and 6mules/12workers to remove entirely)?
Yeah you're right, I guess with gold they'd have to be 4x40 to prevent 2 mules clearing a small gap. Or whathaveyou. I hope to get some games now that it's public.
On January 13 2012 08:00 Meltage wrote: Is there a good reason the half island bases aint blocked for t?
I love the paths through the middle and the long S broad path
Half island bases? I think you might have missed a path or something, because there aren't any islands or semi-islands on this map.
I think he missed the ramp on the 3 and 9 o clock bases.
Ragoo says that he just meant the 3 and 9 expos that are hard to attack by ground. If that is the case, the only reason to block an island is because Terran can take it while the other races cannot. Here, any race can take it. Putting rocks would just screw all the races and not actually address the potential problem which is that Terran can secure the expo very easily by walling off. Imo it won't be an issue though since it is out of the way for ground defense (you'd need a ton of turrets TvZ).
You are the best. The only thing that bothers me a bit about the map is the debris around the watchtower. It feels a little unnatural in a melee map, but I can get past it and I'm not sure there is a better solution.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0YnSh.png)
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u <3
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