Played around a bit more with the lighting (thanks to iGrok for some inspiration)
Made the center bases into 8 minerals + 2 gas for blizz contest
Changed the fog colour to a red-brown variant to make it look more like a wasteland
iGrok added some omnilights, makes the doodads look even more awesome!
Very minor fixes to pathing and placement grid (some doodads off the map still had a footprint edging into the map)
1.4 (internal release)
Tweaked lighting a tiny bit
Reverted the range of the Xel'naga Watchtower from 14->22 because of contest
Used the height tool to make the textures "pop" more
1.3 (SEA only)
Copied language strings to SEA locale
1.2
Fixed mineral placement on top right and bottom left natural
Reshaped holes around XWT to do away with the small chokes which prevented Siege Tanks and Thors from reaching the tower
Made the little corner on the lowground next to the third ramp and highground pod unpathable
Added no-fly-zones to a high building in top right corner and to cranes in the port to prevent players from hiding air units inside them
Moved some doodads and resized them to make it impossible to hide units inside them
Moved the cars and trashcan in the middle of the map and added unpathable square beneath them to prevent hiding marines and zerglings inside them
Increased exposure for the lighting, to make it easier to see units
Removed large garage doodad from the cliff edge on the bottom left main and replaced with other doodads, this to fix a building placement issue (doodads with a building footprint still keep it even though "Don't Use Doodad Footprint" is checked)
Lowered a building made out of cliffs in the lower left corner from level 3 cliff to level 2 cliff, this to prevent air units from hiding from units placed in the natural (which is on level 2)
Filled the little hole next to the rocks leading to the third (the crevice in the highground pod extending from the main), this to prevent units from hiding there
Lowered parts of the highground pods next to the natural -> third ramp to prevent units from hiding behind that 2 step cliff drop
1.1
Fixed pathing in a few highgrounds outside the normal ground pathing area
This map is meant to be a stable macro-ish 4-spawn map. I began with the terminus idea of a main-nat-third, but opened up the third and made the natural wall behind the ramp down to the third, this to make it harder to reach that 3-base which is very common on terminus. It is smaller, as I feel that Terminus is a bit too large, and I have compensated by adding additional paths through the middle and a watchtower which covers most of the middle ground.
So the main differentiating feature compared to terminus is how the third and its backdoor is placed; it enables for easier counter attacks and also an additional path to use to break a contain. It also opens up the map more and enables a better expansion pattern than what terminus does.
We have really tried to create a unique aesthetic feel for this map, and I hope you agree with us. The basic idea was an abandoned city which is partially destroyed and decayed.
This map will be used in NASL Open Tournament which will happen between 2nd and 9th October.
Looks like a mix between Crevasse and Xel'Naga Fortress. I like it though, the destructible debris to the third will make the Xel'Naga Starting location layout alot better. Good aesthetics also. Only thing, watch tower looks like it will be unbalanced for terran siege tank lines since its such a small choke from each direction into it.
My concern was also about terran siege tank pushes on vertical positions when watching the overview pic of the map. But upon playing on the map you realize there are more than plenty counter-attack and flank paths. Something that always benefits a skilled player. The expansions close to the middle are easier to hold than the overview pic would have it seem. Plenty of space surrounding them.
On September 15 2011 05:00 SidianTheBard wrote: Nullcurrent, so good.
You have to thank the others in the team too, they helped quite a lot with the aesthetics This made it possible to keep the high level of detail over most of the map.
the outside and overall doodads are phenomenal but the actual playable area looks bare from the overview, maybe its just the dark approach but it could be too dark
On September 15 2011 06:20 WniO wrote: the outside and overall doodads are phenomenal but the actual playable area looks bare from the overview, maybe its just the dark approach but it could be too dark
On the overview, the textures are blurry, so you can't draw a conclusion from that. And I've tried to make the lighting seem like night, yet not too dark. Not completely sure if I succeeded, we have to consult iGrok
Look at the texturing example at the bottom of the OP, I've really tried to make them "pop" so the playable area won't seem to be bare (even though we don't have that much in the way of interfering).
I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to seeing NASL games on this. I know it draws its lineage from Terminus, but personally I feel it's a completely different beast. I also think it carves out a nice little zone outside the standard space of 4p rotational thus far. Incidentally, I nevertheless highly approve of the MotM#9 judges' decision to leave it out as a nod to aforementioned 4p abundance; I have a feeling you don't really mind 'cause it will be used in a tournament anyway.
Is it possible to get this map loaded on the NA servers would love to try it. Me and my brother love coming to the custom map page and find a few new maps to battle on for the night.
Also who did the aesthetics work? The entire TPW team?
I believe around 4 or 5 TPW members (out of 9) worked on the aesthetics together for this map - excluding me since I took a break
As stated in the OP (under Author), in addition to myself; Johanaz, Meltage, Mereel and Lefix worked on the aesthetics of the map. This map couldn't have become as awesome as it is without them
On September 15 2011 20:18 hobbidude wrote: PM me, I'd be willing to post this or any other tpw maps on NA
I believe IronManSC is already hosting this one on US, not sure though, I have to ask him. (or is there someone who could check if it is uploaded there?)
I like the layout and the aestetics (the lightning is a bit dark tho). I also like how you took the terminus layout (which i personally find pretty bland/boring) and made it intresting.
Not sure if it's been noted before but the mineral placement of the 7 and 1 o'clock natural are a bit off compared to their counterparts. + Show Spoiler +
The 4 and 10 o'clock nats have more efficient mining right now since the CC is off by a hex at the 7 and 1 o'clock nats
On September 16 2011 17:51 Mieszko wrote: Not sure if it's been noted before but the mineral placement of the 7 and 1 o'clock natural are a bit off compared to their counterparts. + Show Spoiler +
The 4 and 10 o'clock nats have more efficient mining right now since the CC is off by a hex at the 7 and 1 o'clock nats
1x2 minerals.......
The mineral placement is a known issue, I was a bit quick when rotating and redistributing the minerals there, working at that and a few other issues.
Other known issues:
Some doodads hide air units (will fix by making them smaller and/or shorter)
Marines/Zerglings can hide in the cars around the center (will probably fix by moving them and adding pathing blocker just in the center of the cars).
Some large building doodads allow you to hide infantry behind them, for some reason the building does not become transparent as it usually does
Thors and Tanks cannot reach the center watchtower because they are too wide for the tiny choke (strangely Ultras, Collosi, Queens, Infestors, Immortals and so on can pass without problems). This will probably necessitate a change in how the chokes around the watchtower looks :/
Working on a fix for all of these.
Great thanks for testing, keep it up and the map will be in great shape for NASL!
[*] Thors and Tanks cannot reach the center watchtower because they are too wide for the tiny choke (strangely Ultras, Collosi, Queens, Infestors, Immortals and so on can pass without problems). This will probably necessitate a change in how the chokes around the watchtower looks :/
Working on a fix for all of these.
You could do that or... Custom cliff time! The only change is the look and walking area, but everything else is pretty much the same. (Same build areas, creep area etc.) If it's something you can use or anyone else for that matter, I've uploaded the map file to here: [url blocked]
[*] Thors and Tanks cannot reach the center watchtower because they are too wide for the tiny choke (strangely Ultras, Collosi, Queens, Infestors, Immortals and so on can pass without problems). This will probably necessitate a change in how the chokes around the watchtower looks :/
The only change is the look and walking area, but everything else is pretty much the same. (Same build areas, creep area etc.) If it's something you can use or anyone else for that matter, I've uploaded the map file to here: [url blocked]
Much easier than me explaning it how-to.
That looks awesome! Ingenious usage of the meinhoff crater and hiding of terrain cells!
Sadly, I have thought about tanks siegeing up around the tower, filling that space inside the chokes. Even if you can't fit that many tanks into it, it will still be hard to break, a bit too hard I think (If you look at it from the perspective of a Z, think zergling muta vs a lot of tanks in the middle, protected by thors and hellions, and you'll see what I mean — zerglings won't be able to reach the tanks properly)
New Center
Here is an image of how the center will look: (probably, if you have any objections I might change it) This will still provide some cover for the tanks, but the forward tanks will be easier to hit and surround. (And yes, tanks and thors can move through the small choke created by XWT and cliff hole, I have not removed one problem just to create another )
Forge FE Image
And I forgot to create one image which might be of importance to some, how a forge FE wall-in would look like:
Main-size too small?
Finally, monitor expressed some concerns with the main-size in the MotM #9 thread, so I created an example terran main to illustrate the size of the main and natural: + Show Spoiler [Example Terran main] +
Variant with building pathing switched on As you can see, I have avoided to place buildings at the top of the main as in TvT you might be shelled by tanks sieged up next to the fourth there.
From what I and the other TPW members can see, it looks fine. But if testing proves us wrong, we'll change it and extend it towards the corners a bit.
Status of 1.2
I am still working on version 1.2, and if no other issues come up I will probably have it ready today (CET). The last issue I have to fix is the possibility of hiding smaller units behind cliff drops from 3 to 1 (the highground pods next to the nat).
That is some very unorganized building placement you have there lol
I think the main doesn't need to be as big as normal since when you acquire the nat/third and need to add production buildings you also get more space in the nat/third which are close to your main (hope you understand what I mean^^).
The picture shows quite well how much extra space there is in the nat.
This version has a lot of smaller changes, but most of them affect gameplay slightly.
Change Log
Fixed mineral placement on top right and bottom left natural
Reshaped holes around XWT to do away with the small chokes which prevented Siege Tanks and Thors from reaching the tower
Made the little corner on the lowground next to the third ramp and highground pod unpathable
Added no-fly-zones to a high building in top right corner and to cranes in the port to prevent players from hiding air units inside them
Moved some doodads and resized them to make it impossible to hide units inside them
Moved the cars and trashcan in the middle of the map and added unpathable square beneath them to prevent hiding marines and zerglings inside them
Increased exposure for the lighting, to make it easier to see units
Removed large garage doodad from the cliff edge on the bottom left main and replaced with other doodads, this to fix a building placement issue (doodads with a building footprint still keep it even though "Don't Use Doodad Footprint" is checked)
Lowered a building made out of cliffs in the lower left corner from level 3 cliff to level 2 cliff, this to prevent air units from hiding from units placed in the natural (which is on level 2)
Filled the little hole next to the rocks leading to the third (the crevice in the highground pod extending from the main), this to prevent units from hiding there
Lowered parts of the highground pods next to the natural -> third ramp to prevent units from hiding behind that 2 step cliff drop
This one has a few minor changes and prepares the map to be submitted to the TeamLiquid Map Making Contest. And it also attempts to fix the, according to some, too-dark lighting.
New lighting:
This will hopefully solve the problems it had with some people thinking the map was too dark. Now it is taking place during a cloudy and rainy day instead of during the night.
Change Log
1.3 (SEA only)
Copied language strings to SEA locale
1.4 (internal release)
Tweaked lighting a tiny bit
Reverted the range of the Xel'naga Watchtower from 14->22 because of contest
Used the height tool to make the textures "pop" more
1.5
Played around a bit more with the lighting (thanks to iGrok for some inspiration)
Made the center bases into 8 minerals + 2 gas for blizz contest
Changed the fog colour to a red-brown variant to make it look more like a wasteland
iGrok added some omnilights, makes the doodads look even more awesome!
Very minor fixes to pathing and placement grid (some doodads off the map still had a footprint edging into the map)
This map should be the perfect experiment for the contest, because as what I have seen the community likes maps where there are as many doodas as possible, but blizzard seems to like maps where there as few as possible doodas. Im interested to see how well will this map do.
These images are ~4000x4000px, and around 4 MiB large, so feel free to look around
EDIT:
On October 29 2011 16:41 Sea_Food wrote: This map should be the perfect experiment for the contest, because as what I have seen the community likes maps where there are as many doodas as possible, but blizzard seems to like maps where there as few as possible doodas. Im interested to see how well will this map do.
I agree, it will be interesting as there may be many reasons for not choosing Concrete Dreams :/
For all of you who have complained about the map being too dark, especially those using the US server, version 1.6 has finally after all this time been uploaded to US servers.
The previous version on US servers was 1.2, so to make a quick recap of the major changes:
It will fix the major complaint of the map being too dark
Xel'Naga Watchtower now has normal range
Center bases are now 8 mineral + 2 gas instead of 7 mineral + 1 gas
Changes in the new version 1.6:
Fixed minor cliff visibility issues
EDIT: Currently published on US as "TPW Concrete Dreams-", by the user TPW (because of naming problems)
On January 06 2012 22:24 PiPoGevy wrote: This is beautiful...
Sadly this does not matter at all, because many people are convinced that this map is redundant because it is "so similar to Terminus SE". This was the major reason it was excluded from the TeamLiquid Map Contest, its similarities to Terminus SE. I do not agree with that, more on that later in this post.
Sea_Food put it quite nicely:
On October 29 2011 16:41 Sea_Food wrote: This map should be the perfect experiment for the contest, because as what I have seen the community likes maps where there are as many doodas as possible, but blizzard seems to like maps where there as few as possible doodas. Im interested to see how well will this map do.
They said that they do not want to have redundancy in the map pool, I can understand that, but I disagree with them when it comes to Concrete Dreams because Terminus RE/SE never has been in Blizzard's map pool for which the contest was arranged. But that is all past, so I won't really complain about it, I just put it here so all of you who wondered why this map did not go further in TLMC will know.
Personally I think this map will play out quite differently from Terminus RE/SE, mainly because you don't get a "free" third when you wall off your natural, instead you have to wall off later in the game to secure it (and by then you usually do not need to, as you have a standing army + the backdoor becomes a bit of a problem too as it is somewhat far away). Also, the size of the map is much smaller which will force more engagements instead of passively sitting on 3-5 bases and splitting the map (although this can still happen though, but depends more on the players than on the map).
So I'm hoping that Concrete Dreams finally will get the attention it in my opinion I think it deserves.
On January 05 2012 07:39 FoxyMayhem wrote: I'm so glad you're still working on this map. I hope to never see another Terminus again, with Concrete Dreams taking its place.
I can up to a point agree with FoxyMayhem, and yes, I'm still working on this map from time to time, but now it seem to become quite stable. Most of the stuff people have complained about has been fixed (mainly the dark lighting, but that is now corrected thanks to the new upload on NA servers).
Also, for all those people on EU who want to try out this map and don't want to use the Blizzard AI and don't have a friend who wants to play, I have uploaded a version with Green Tea AI, named as "TPW Concrete Dreams Green Tea AI". I have played a few times with it, and it works quite well. Sadly as it is an AI, it won't attempt to exploit air harass or drops as a human opponent would.
EDIT: I have now finally updated the OP and replaced all the screenshots with new images using the lighting from 1.5. All the old images have been put into a spoiler so you can compare with the old lighting if you want.
On January 08 2012 02:00 Seeker wrote: I love the map. I honestly think it would result in some great/amazing games.
How close are the rush distances? It seems like apart from cross spawn, the rush distances are a bit too close.
As it says in the OP, the rush distance for close positions are about 117 AU for natural to natural, which is the same as on Xel'Naga Caverns. But as the natural choke is much narrower, I think it is definitely quite safe to expand early in the game (maybe not a 15 CC or so, but at least early). Also, it is a 4 spawn map, which will make it harder to find your opponent early, making rush builds harder to execute (the cross spawn is 140 AU natural to natural btw).
Versus Green Tea AI I've been able to repeatedly do a 15 CC into 3 rax wall followed by 2 factory tanks vs Hard without too much of a problem (Hard Green Tea AI is maphacking but not yet resource cheating, Very Hard is gradually resource cheating but with the same logic). Sadly the AI is not as good at micro, otherwise my somewhat bad micro skills would have been greatly strained to keep the wall alive .
Ah I feel screenshotting every doodad like that ruins the mystique of the map in a sense, kind of like cutting out all the good bits from a movie or book. I think it'd better to show some of them to give people a glimpse but make them discover the rest on their own .
On January 21 2012 21:58 fenix404 wrote: excellent map, another TPW masterpiece.
like both styles of lighting, dark and raining... can it be made to switch mid-game? that would be awesome, changing weather. just an idea...
Thanks for the praise
We had a problem with the dark lighting (which went on for a long time on NA, as the map was not updated there), and the problem was that you could not discern your units quickly enough if you had dark player colours (or units which are pretty dark to start with, like marauders/hellions). This does not matter that much for spectators, but for players this is a necessity.
So the new lighting strives to correct this while still looking good. Because I wanted to make it easy to distinguish different units I used a Blizzard-made lighting and only made very minor changes to it (compared to the other lighting which had some large changes to make it look like it was at night) to preserve how the units look so they won't be too dark. So changing lighting mid-game is a no, even if it was accepted by the player community (which it is not), as the old lighting was bad to play on.
On January 21 2012 22:33 XenoX101 wrote: Ah I feel screenshotting every doodad like that ruins the mystique of the map in a sense, kind of like cutting out all the good bits from a movie or book. I think it'd better to show some of them to give people a glimpse but make them discover the rest on their own .
I only show "some" of the doodads Seriously, you have some more areas to explore ^^.
But yeah, I can admit that I might have been overzealous when I made the map and took all the screenshots, sorry if that spoils it a bit for you Also, they are spoilered, I did not think people would look at every image in the OP when I made it.
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