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Map of the Month #9 - Page 18

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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RumbleBadger
Profile Joined July 2011
322 Posts
September 17 2011 22:11 GMT
#341
On September 18 2011 06:20 AaronJ wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Great post. The only thing I wanted to say about your's and monitor's post is that as a novice map mapmaker (when I tried map making) it was almost impossible to actually learn from my mistakes and improve next time.With very little information out there and sometimes no good feedback as there are very little people who actually truly understand mapping it is hard to actually learn from mistakes other than the most basic ones you had in your map. Its also very hard to test your map with high level players to see how it plays out and find imbalances that way. Finally I feel that posts in map threads are often unreliable since sometimes (and I have been guilty of this ) people who don't know what they are talking about comment. I would love to see the map thread start to look like the stratagy thread where you had to have valid reasoning behind a suggestion and great mappers have a blue backround (or something similar).(I don't know how hard it would be to implement stuff though). All in all I think the mapping thread would be a lot better place if experienced map makers would really try to teach and mentor newer map makers (by making guides, commenting in map threads with more detail ect.) and maybe in the future the people who were helped could then help advance map making and help the community grow. I might be expecting too much or expecting crops to grow without rain and I am in no way saying if you are experienced you have to dedicate all of you time to helping others. I just think that if we can get more experienced mappers who understand the game and how it interacts with maps then the community will amazing growth and more people with different ideas could help make our maps more advanced and evolve the map making metagame (i know it isn't truely relevant but I couldn't think of a better word)



Yeah, I personally understand what this feels like. My last map received one comment. I realize it was asymmetric and so very few people would have much experience, but really any feedback is good feedback. :/
Games before dames.
lefix
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1082 Posts
September 17 2011 22:19 GMT
#342
blizzard does scale and tint doodads all the time, i don't see any problems there.
mixing tilesets is a little bit more difficult, imho.
i know blizzard does in very few occasions, but the tileset itself can still be easily recognized as such. they don't really mix textures to create something new. they stay within their starcraft universe.
Map of the Month | The Planetary Workshop | SC2Melee.net
Ragoo
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany2773 Posts
September 17 2011 22:52 GMT
#343
Still not clear if we can change water or lighting :O
Member of TPW mapmaking team/// twitter.com/Ragoo_ /// "goody represents border between explainable reason and supernatural" Cloud
Gl!tch
Profile Joined December 2010
United States573 Posts
September 18 2011 00:05 GMT
#344
Ok so the rules for MotM 10 as i understand them:

- No mixing textures
- All bases shall be 8minerals 2gas, all gold bases shall be 6minerals 2gas
- Use rocks with great prejudice

Not so sure about:

- Custom lighting, water, altered doodads.
- Can we have a somewhat creative base layout? ie. something blizzard hasnt done.
“I mean, they say you die twice. One time when you stop breathing and a second time, a bit later on, when somebody says your name for the last time.” ― Banksy
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
September 18 2011 00:24 GMT
#345
--- Nuked ---
Gl!tch
Profile Joined December 2010
United States573 Posts
September 18 2011 00:32 GMT
#346
Oh, and i assume custom xel'naga watchtowers are out of the question
“I mean, they say you die twice. One time when you stop breathing and a second time, a bit later on, when somebody says your name for the last time.” ― Banksy
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
September 18 2011 00:37 GMT
#347
--- Nuked ---
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
September 18 2011 00:37 GMT
#348
--- Nuked ---
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
September 18 2011 02:15 GMT
#349
Blizzard has used different colors of water than just blue/green. Shakuras Plateau, for example, has purple water. I think as long as the water fits with the theme there shouldn't be any problem.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
September 18 2011 03:29 GMT
#350
On September 18 2011 11:15 MisfortuneS Ghost wrote:
Blizzard has used different colors of water than just blue/green. Shakuras Plateau, for example, has purple water. I think as long as the water fits with the theme there shouldn't be any problem.

this is good advice for most things
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 03:53:12
September 18 2011 03:49 GMT
#351
--- Nuked ---
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
September 18 2011 04:20 GMT
#352
On September 18 2011 04:59 Barrin wrote:
I started writing this several days ago, but then I got the worst cold I've ever had (didn't even touch computer for a day and a half). That's also why my write-ups are late (posting today or tomorrow).

If you are one of the people disappointed with MotM9, you are required to read this post before expressing anymore disappointment in this thread ^_^ (not really, but yeah).+ Show Spoiler +





I want everyone to know that we are certainly listening to and understanding your concerns. I know full well the frustration of having a map you spent countless hours on being denied a MotM finalist position (which almost invariably leads to it being never used again).

Identifying possible problems is a good thing... but at one point in this thread it moved past the “identifying possible problems” boundary and more into “complaining/whining”. Perhaps we should discuss potential solutions to the possible problems; maybe simply asking for further clarification (now and in the future, and I'm happy to say that some of you are doing/did so) instead of complaining and defaming.

As an aside, there is this thing I like to call "mapmaking progression philosophy". I've been meaning to make a thread for it for a loong time, but it really is little more than this: I believe that more people should be focusing more on (strategy A) improving on your current mapmaking skills and less on (strategy B) taking what you do know and trying to shove it all into a single map in hopes you will win a competition or a large tournament will use your map. Interestingly enough this same concept can be (and is) applied to "player progression philosophy" as well. It is a well known theory that given a long enough timeframe, the player who chooses to focus on early aggression/cheesing almost every game (strategy b) is going to eventually be an overall worse player than the person who focuses on improving their late-game mechanics and surviving the early game (strategy A). + Show Spoiler +
(disclaimer: at least in mapmaking, Strategy A and B are not mutually exclusive (indeed it makes sense to do B while doing A); it is the degrees of focus on either one that I am addressing.)

If you don't consider yourself very experienced in mapmaking (2+ years; yes, into the BW days), and if you're not learning a lot from almost every map you make, then you're probably doing it wrong (probably not receiving/comprehending enough feedback - put yourself out there - do not be afraid to be wrong, be afraid of being wrong and never realizing it).





The first issue I wish to address is the idea that MotM tends to choose maps that are "standard".

Well, what is standard exactly? Is there any single map we can point to and say "that's the standard!"?

No. That doesn't make sense because there are many different categories of maps. However for some of these categories we do have at least one map to look to as a standard.

For clarity, each of these categories has varying degrees of [# of bases], [# of spawn positions], [symmetry type], [map size], and if you wanna get down to it [difficulty of expanding to & holding natural], [difficulty of expanding to and holding third], [optional thirds], and [level of air space around map]... (you can go on for a long ass time categorizing differences IMO, but these are the true major ones).

main categories:
  • # of bases: 8-20
  • # of spawning positions: 2-5
  • symmetry type: rotational; reflection; (significantly) shifted.
  • map size: small [100x100 to 115x115 OR 110x90 to 120x100]; medium [130x110 to 150x130 OR 120x120 to 140x140]; large [150x150 to 180x180]


sub categories:
  • difficulty of expanding to & holding natural: openness, length, number (any blocked off?), breadth of chokes (and their distance from CC), main cliffability, ramp. ((easy/medium/hard))
  • difficulty of expanding to & holding third: distance from nat entrance, attack entrance(s) distance(s) from nat entrance (and their openness, length, number, breadth of chokes. ((easy/medium/hard))
  • optional thirds: how many? what are their different characteristics? ((no, 2, 3))
  • level of air space around map: low; medium (or scattered), high


------------

If you take all the possible combinations with just these major features, that's 37,908 different combinations for categories of maps (20,412 if you only count # of bases from 10 to 16)... these numbers double every time you add a variable with 2 possible values (and I could do that sensibly, with fairly major things like close air positions or backdoor into main, possibility of gold expansionl, whether or not there are XWT's, square or rectangle, and others).

Well, you wouldn't really want a 2player, 10base map that's the size of Tal'Darim Altar. So most of those combinations don't really make sense. However, I would say that there's easily a few hundred that do, and of those maybe 50 or so that have been done fairly well (many, maybe most, haven't even been tried).

So. There is a "standard" for some of these combinations.

The standard for a medium-sized, 2-player, 10-base, rotational symmetry map with hard to take/hold natural, hard to take/hold third(s), 2 optional thirds, and low level of air space around the map is... + Show Spoiler +
Xel'Naga Caverns


How about the standard for a medium/large, 4(3) player, 14-base, reflection (insignificant shift) symmetry map with easy to take/hold natural, easy to take/hold thirds, (sorta) 2 optional thirds, and fairly low level of air space around the map? + Show Spoiler +
Shakuras Plateau


Or how about the standard for a medium, 4 player, 16-base, rotational symmetry map with fairly easy to take/hold natural, medium to take/hold thirds, 2 optional thirds, and a medium (scattered) level of air space around the map? + Show Spoiler +
Artifice and some of the maps quite like it


IMO, there aren't very many other standards that are "standard" on the same level as these (there are varying levels of "standard" IMO). Maybe Tal'darim Altar is a standard for huge maps because it's like the only one. There are two more that I will get to soon.*




Now it gets really fun, because each CATEGORY has multiple STYLES. That is, category deals with spawn count, base count, symmetry type, map size, nat difficulty, third difficulty, optional thirds, level of air space around map, etc. Style gets even more specific (and ambiguous) and deals with terrain/cliff structures, openness distribution (and how it falls into pathing/army positioning gameplay), base vulnerabilities, and that sort of thing.

I'm probably speaking for all the judges (and probably most progamers too) when I say we care more about varied style than varied category (which is why this "We encourage creativity in number of spawns, bases, etc. and are excited to see the submissions!" is rather misleading and deserves(d) clarification).

+ Show Spoiler +
An important concept to understand here is something I harped on a lot almost a year ago. In fact I promised (probably more than once) that I would make a [D] thread on it, but I never did. The concept goes something like this: each dot of terrain means something and has the potential to have an affect on the game itself (even if it has miniscule potential to have an affect on the actual outcome of the game).

Another thing to understand here is that things matter more in the early game. In other words, early game terrain has a bigger effect on more games played than late game terrain (probably all games, tbh). The earlier in the game it is used, the more it matters.

A less than ideal example is Main Chokes in PvP. It doesn't really get any more early game than your main choke. If the main choke is flat instead of a ramp (los blockers and high ground next to it aside), all of the sudden the entire PvP matchup is broken because of one small piece of terrain.

A simple overlord pod where there wasn't one can mean the difference between the zerg seeing an army coming across a path in time to move his army to defend the target base or not seeing it at all and half the workers and the hatchery at the target base dying.

A little bit of air space behind a main can mean the difference between a full octodrop (or two) at the ~10 minute mark being picked off by stalkers or not.

There are many timing attacks that can either be very effective or completely useless against an enemy natural ramp depending on if the ramp is 2 blocks wide or 3 blocks wide.

A single tile of pathable terrain can mean the difference between whether or not a the mineral line (or gas geyser) at a nat or third base is siegable.

There are countless more less significant examples. But all of these can have very significant affects on games... and we're only talking about very small pieces of terrain!

-----

You guessed it: medium sized pieces of terrain can have an even bigger impact.

Move a third base a whole 8x8 square (diagonally) and you can "tuck" almost "behind" your natural entrance (depending on positioning). This can mean the difference between very macro oriented games or games that tend to stay on 2-bases significantly longer.

Give a gold base a tight choke instead of an open one and all of the sudden Terran reigns supreme.

Make a main base small (23 CC)'s instead of medium (30 CC's) and T's and P's QQ all day that they don't have enough room to build, and arguably more importantly it becomes MUCH easier to scout (giving information that is acted upon instead of remaining unknown).

There are hundreds (probably thousands) of examples like this, many of which we haven’t even found yet.


Can you think of any two maps that have been in the ladder pool that have very similar categories but significantly different styles? Think for a minute; if you can't come up with something, you have no place to call overgrown and emerald jungle too similar to shakuras plateau.

+ Show Spoiler +
Of course I am speaking of Shattered Temple and Metalopolis. Categorically wise, they are almost identical:

Shattered Temple:
4(3) spawns
12 bases
medium size
reflection symmetry
easy natural
medium third(s)
2+ optional thirds
medium (scattered) air space around map

Metalopolis:
4(3) spawns
12 bases
medium size
reflection symmetry
medium natural
medium third(s)
2+ optional thirds
medium (scattered) air space around map

Yet somehow they manage to have relatively different styles. This is even a suboptimal example of how drastically different styles can be (its easy to relate to though).

*These two maps are indeed the "standard" for their categories.





Alright, now let's take a close look at the two maps people are saying is too much like Shakuras.


Overgrown + Show Spoiler +
Shakuras (156x128):
4(3) spawns
14 bases
medium/large size
reflection symmetry
easy natural
medium third(s)
2 optional thirds
low air space around map

Overgrown (158x137):
4(3) spawns
14 bases
medium/large size*
reflection symmetry
easy natural
hard third(s)
2 optional thirds
medium (scattered) air space around map

[image loading]

In the context of what's possible, this map is more like Shakuras than it is unlike Shakuras.

The categories are almost the same, can't deny that.

Aside from basic base layout, the style is actually quite different.

Take a close look at the naturals. The differences actually have a significant effect on the early game, which in turn makes a profound effect on the mid and late game.

Think about trying to take a third on shakuras, then think about trying to take a third on overgrown. That's right; it's a lot harder to do it on overgrown. One of the thirds is VERY open. The other third is kinda far away from the open third, which in combination with the openness of the other third, makes it hard to hold both of them. Unlike Shakuras, the third you take on overgrown kind of funnels you in to one of two (very different) expansion patterns.

There is also a hell of a lot more pathing options on Overgrown than on Shakuras. The "central width" of Shakuras is very small in relation to it's size, which (if you ask any pro player) is one of it's biggest defining features. This is a huge point, but it's hard to explain it's profound impact on the mid-late and late game (comes with experience).

Again, in the context of what's possible, this map is more like Shakuras than it is unlike Shakuras. However, it's almost as unlike Shakuras as it could possibly be while still being mostly like Shakuras.


Emerald Jungle + Show Spoiler +
Shakuras (156x128):
4(3) spawns
14 bases
medium/large size
reflection symmetry
easy natural
medium third(s)
2 optional thirds
low air space around map

Emerald Jungle (158x152):
4(3) spawns
16 bases
large size
reflection symmetry
medium natural
easy third + hard third
2 optional thirds
medium (scattered) air space around map

[image loading]

The categories are in the same ballpark. Significantly different, however. Emerald Jungle is hardly even a rectangle (shakuras is VERY rectangular, part of why it has a small central width).

Holy fuck the style is soooo different. I'm seriously about to noobslap anyone who thinks otherwise. TWICE if you have to look any farther than the basic base layout in combination with the pathing to see it.

I dare you to show me why I'm wrong.


You say they're too much like Shakuras? I say you look too much at the category, and not nearly enough at the style.




While we're looking at specific maps, let's take a look at Tenarsis.

Some of you are saying this map is too standard. Tell me, which "standardish" map does this map resemble...? Take your time.

That's right. There is none (actually it does kinda remind me of my next still-private map >.<, but that's besides the point).

What you really mean is that it uses a bunch of MINOR, non-unique map features and tries to put a new spin on them (and spinning it does).

Quite frankly I've never seen a map with the same midgame layout as this one, or even close to it. The area outside of the natural is fairly unique (please prove otherwise).

Someone specified that the fact that there is optional thirds is one reason why this map isn't unique. I've never seen an optional thirds layout quite like this one (especially considering the fairly small (not too small..) natural rush distances.

I love how you can place your army at the gold and simultaneously soundly defend the two bases behind it (but leaving your natural adequately vulnerable). This isn't entirely new, but in the context of the whole map it is.

And you see, that's the thing. It's not only about individual map features. It's also how those individual map features interact with the rest of the map... Everything in a game like SC2 is connected; you can't say you know everything about something without also knowing the entire context that it takes place in. Indeed, as the context (map) changes, so does the concept (feature). + Show Spoiler +
This is how you can talk to someone about some concept in SC2 that you both can identify and understand, but the fact that you have more context to refer to means that they won't really understand it the same way you do. We run into this constantly in judge discussions. I personally run into this all the time when trying to explain things to people.

And by the way, if it's recognition for your good work you seek, then it doesn't really help you if few other people can fully appreciate the depth of your work. I wont lie, this is actually a main reason why I used to be very vocal in this community... What was the point of making badass maps if I'm the only one who understands why they're badass? (disclaimer: I never actually made a badass map, but if I did...!)


What I'm saying is that you can take old ""standard"" features and do something new and creative with them. This is not the only way to be creative, but it is a huge part of it. How ridiculous would it be if you made a map with only 100% new features anyway (if that's even possible)?

(By the way there are sorta different levels of "features". So far I meant only individual features (example: double ramp main on scrap station). You can categorize them further and have a series of connected individual features (I will call these "structures"). You should always make sure that each individual feature actually fits in to the overall concept of a map (there's probably more overall concepts than individual features).)




Nobody is claiming that Bardiche and/or Derelict are standard-ish (especially Bardiche), right? *raises ban hammer*loljk* Seriously though. They're not - at all.




Unique != Good.

I'll be honest. I am aware that there is more to the feeling of "standard" that I have yet to acknowledge in this post. There is something that is done quite properly in pretty much every non-blizzard map that made it to the bigger 1v1 tournaments.

I can't speak for the rest of the judges, but personally I put A LOT of weight on this. Three words:

Army. Positioning. Gameplay.

Some of you probably remember my [D] Base Vulnerabilities thread. Army Positioning Gameplay is the other half of that story.

I am definitely going to make a [D] thread on Army Positioning Gameplay soon enough (I've been thinking about it specifically for several months now, making sure I get it down).

Army Positioning Gameplay is an extremely important concept at the highest of levels. Army Positioning Gameplay is akin to Micro; it is like Micro's bigger brother.

It is not easy at all to make a map with very good Army Positioning Gameplay while simultaneously being very unique AND balanced. It's downright fucking hard, actually. It is an art.

This topic deserves it's own thread (don't worry I'll make it), so I don't wanna get too detailed here. For now I think it's sufficient to say that two things in particular cause bad Army Positioning Gameplay.

(1) Too much restriction in pathing. This is usually caused by multiple LONG cliffs or unpathable space (long as in no breaks). It can make engagements too predictable, and it can allow you to always engage exactly where you want in a defensive posture. Boring, lowers skill ceiling.

(2) Too little restriction in pathing. For the most part, having every pathway and every base pathing-connected to every pathway and every base next to it is, you guessed it: boring. When you have too much freedom in pathing, you're not risking enough when you move your army around; you cannot be as easily be punished for your mistakes and in turn cannot as easily punish people for their mistakes. There must be suspense (that's a very basic way of putting it). Also, pathing restriction is one of your biggest tools for making your map unique and interesting.

Of course, armies don't just run all around the map trying to find the most efficient choke points to engage in. Armies defend bases, and armies attack bases (and other armies). Mostly defend actually. Which means they usually must remain in reasonably close proximity to the base(s) they are trying to protect (unless they're attacking o.O). But the best place to defend your natural often shouldn't be the best place to defend both your natural and your third, etc. And it should occasionally make sense to move your army away from this position (for a variety of reasons).

Many (if not most) of the maps submitted this month that are "unique" and "non-standard" have pretty sub-par Army Positioning Gameplay. IMO, at least.




I believe that more people should be focusing more on (strategy A) improving on your current mapmaking skills and less on (strategy B) taking what you do know and trying to shove it all into a single map in hopes you will win a competition or a large tournament will use your map.


- Barrin


i enjoyed reading this but I have to make a rebuttal. please see the following (spoiler as to not derail thread)

+ Show Spoiler +
you talk alot about army positioning but do not mention army movement. You mention how wider paths and wider base areas effect gameplay yet, in the case of these copy cat maps, the end result is the same as the game progresses in the same way as the original.

this is what great map pools feature - originality in gameplay from map to map in a series.

in the case of motm, compare funcmode's two maps:
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

while your point with the nuances of terrain may be true, and that certain 'areas' of the map may alter the engagements a bit, in this particular example, you cannot definitely argue it provides a radically different experience. this is where motm falters.

this is what sets tournaments such as the GSL in an upper echelon altogether as with their map selection, they realize the importance of having this variance in their map pool. in the following example, the 4p GSL maps, you will notice the differences. of note is the similarity between antiga and taldarim, but the expansion layout on antiga is very different than that of taldarim
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

the same cannot be said with overgrown. if you replace shakuras in your map pool with overgrown, the players move, attack, and expand in all the same general directions. yes, there is one additional attack path in overgrown, but it only comes into play in the later game; it is essentially the same map.
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


your point on the the fact that there is a finite limit to general map layouts is true. even my own shuriken map follows the same boring map concept of a 4 player rotational. but in this situation, the job of the mapper is provide an experience unlike other maps. in the following example, i have orientated my map to mimic motm's. you will see the expansion layout is generally the same, yet (as per your argument) are obvious the major terrain differences and alteration of the expansion path.
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
note my map is reversed in the above image, to have the same expansion+attack path

the following is the actual map orientation and expansion directions,
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]





please see personal comment,
+ Show Spoiler +
i have been very outspoken against motm and its judging in the last little while, yet, i feel the above speaks for itself, and is probably the standpoint of alot of mappers here. you wonder when you look at the GSL map pool in all its variety, and then quite literally bow your head in shame when looking at the motm pool. i say shame because it reflects on myself to think i had an active interest in such a movement, the hope it would truly showcase the originality and uniqueness of the mapping community and the wide variety of play you could see in sc2. for individual mappers, they invest many hours to strive to figure out and provide these different maps, only to be left in the dust because a map team can put in the man hours to make prettier use of doodads. you question your use of time and support around the matter.

but alas, I don't really expect motm to change its ways. it was very clear in the last thread that for whatever professional reason, they will play it safe in map picking. and it is their organization, so there's nothing more to say on the matter. i probably wont be submitting maps to motm ever again as a result, but such is to be expected from the above.

GL to tpw in nasl.
starleague forever
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
September 18 2011 05:03 GMT
#353
Your gifs have paths going through cliffs or taking non-optimal paths, most noticeably on Overgrown.
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
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Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2404 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 05:12:28
September 18 2011 05:07 GMT
#354
On September 18 2011 13:20 a176 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2011 04:59 Barrin wrote:
I started writing this several days ago, but then I got the worst cold I've ever had (didn't even touch computer for a day and a half). That's also why my write-ups are late (posting today or tomorrow).

<big wall of text here>

- Barrin


please see personal comment,
i have been very outspoken against motm and its judging in the last little while, yet, i feel the above speaks for itself, and is probably the standpoint of alot of mappers here. you wonder when you look at the GSL map pool in all its variety, and then quite literally bow your head in shame when looking at the motm pool. i say shame because it reflects on myself to think i had an active interest in such a movement, the hope it would truly showcase the originality and uniqueness of the mapping community and the wide variety of play you could see in sc2. for individual mappers, they invest many hours to strive to figure out and provide these different maps, only to be left in the dust because a map team can put in the man hours to make prettier use of doodads. you question your use of time and support around the matter.

but alas, I don't really expect motm to change its ways. it was very clear in the last thread that for whatever professional reason, they will play it safe in map picking. and it is their organization, so there's nothing more to say on the matter. i probably wont be submitting maps to motm ever again as a result, but such is to be expected from the above.

GL to tpw in nasl.


While I understand your concern (and appreciate you voicing it- seriously, it helps when people say what they think), I do believe that most of what your saying isn't entirely true. I'll just post a few of my thoughts in spoilers, it's kind of long-

you wonder when you look at the GSL map pool in all its variety, and then quite literally bow your head in shame when looking at the motm pool. i say shame because it reflects on myself to think i had an active interest in such a movement, the hope it would truly showcase the originality and uniqueness of the mapping community and the wide variety of play you could see in sc2.


+ Show Spoiler +
First of all, GSL and MotM are kind of different. The GSL is a professional tournament that has korean map testing (via Gisado) and almost exclusively uses map from the Prime mapmakers. Each map is made privately by the top level mapmakers, tested by professionals, and modified for use in the GSL. However, MotM takes any map from any person in the entire universe and has to pick the top five ranging from the worst maps to pretty decent ones. You cannot expect MotM to have equal or more experimental maps than the GSL because we don't have the same testing or experienced mapmakers required to balance and design a competitive experimental map.

That being said, I can't understand how you possibly say you bow your head in shame to the MotM maps. Lets see this month:

Bardiche: Absolutely crazy map with all sorts of features that completely change the metagame of Starcraft 2. Nothing like any map out except the layout of the main and natural- the first two bases almost have to be like this for map balance. Compared to BelShir Beach and Daybreak this map is far more experimental.

Derelict: Never before seen middle design with a small path and larger path on the outside, completely unique expansion layout, and a unique gold third design. Amazing work with map control features- no map has had the same "brood war-esque" map control that this has because of the highground sickle. This map is just as experimental as XelNaga Fortress and Metalopolis.

Emerald Jungle: How many reflection maps are there in competitive play right now? I can think of one that is becoming out of date. Other than that, Emerald Jungle also introduces an unusual natural and third layout. While it is not that experimental, it is no less than Antiga Shipyard.

Tenarsis: Not many features of this map are highly unusual, but nothing will have the same expansion pattern and army positioning/movement that it has. The only thing close is XNC, but the expansions are much more limited and harder to hold on that.

Not to direct something at you, but can you please run through which maps we should have chosen instead? Like all of the maps that were submitted that are way more experimental and balanced than these.


for individual mappers, they invest many hours to strive to figure out and provide these different maps, only to be left in the dust because a map team can put in the man hours to make prettier use of doodads.


+ Show Spoiler +
The only map worked on by a team was Concrete Dreams, and it didn't win.

Additionally, you act as if the individual mapmakers are much better than the teams who just are good at aesthetics. Instead of just saying teams, lets say TPW because we know that's what you are talking about. TPW and ESV strive to create new and interesting maps just as much as anybody else does- I'd better probably twice as much on average. If you are talking about yourself spending much more time than map teams, say that and not "for individual mappers" because it is not true.

I can assure you the least of our concerns is how good a map looks. Anybody can do that, and it is almost purely personal preference. Only a knowledgeable and experienced mapmaker can make a well designed and balanced melee map. Basically if you have two maps that are the same, the one with better aesthetics wins. End of story in my opinion.


but alas, I don't really expect motm to change its ways. it was very clear in the last thread that for whatever professional reason, they will play it safe in map picking.


+ Show Spoiler +
If in order to be happy you must get your maps into tournaments, then mapmaking is not for you.

But seriously, this is true. Nobody except a very few people have gotten their maps into big tournaments at this point. If "winning a competion" is something you have to do in order to want to keep going, just don't keep going - find something else you enjoy doing. Note: I realize you just say you won't enter, not that you will stop mapmaking.

MotM is not "Experimental Map of the Month". We judge on many things including balance, concept, proportions, creativity, and aesthetics. Don't pretend that you understand everything about mapmaking- nobody knows it all. Right now if MotM as an organization only picks maps because they are the most creative, it cannot continue under sponsorship, being casted professionally, and have a pro-gaming tournament. The fact is that most maps that users submit that you call "creative" aren't going to hold up for very long in competitive play.
Mapmaker & TLMC Judge. Amygdala, Frostline, Crimson Court, and Korhal Compound (WoL).
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
September 18 2011 05:36 GMT
#355
--- Nuked ---
LunaSaint
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom620 Posts
September 18 2011 07:25 GMT
#356
On September 18 2011 09:24 Barrin wrote:I think it's okay to change these EVER SO SLIGHTLY if you're ONE HUNDRED PERCENT SURE you know what you're doing. BE SUBTLE.

I think it's okay to be a little more liberal with the doodads, but it's probably not a good idea to shove a bunch of 500% sized doodads all over the place (maybe 200-300% trees and the occasional 500% tree if u REALLY want around map borders?)


*Whistles innocently*
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 07:32:19
September 18 2011 07:28 GMT
#357
I urge debaters to avoid strawman arguments, wherein you portray the opposing person's ideas as a more extreme version in order to make your argument easier, or portray theirs as ridiculous. No one, I believe, has asked for creativity to be the only criteria for judging.

+ Show Spoiler [Straw Man Fallacy detailed explanation] +
From TVTropes.org
The Straw Man occurs when a debater constructs a more easily defeated version of his opponent's position to attack, rather than addressing his real arguments. The fallacy takes its name from straw dummies used in old-fashioned combat training; these dummies were made to look like a potential opponent, but provide no actual resistance. The fallacy itself is comparable to defeating such a dummy, then proclaiming you have defeated an actual opponent.


Hat's of to all ye.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
September 18 2011 07:32 GMT
#358
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Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 07:46:41
September 18 2011 07:42 GMT
#359
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Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
September 18 2011 08:05 GMT
#360
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