On September 15 2011 01:01 NASL tweeted: We're switching things up! Check out the changes we have made to our open tournament structure this season! http://t.co/M3n7Pp0
Open & Semi Open Featuring New Maps
As part of our effort to bring in new maps and involve the map-making community, the two open tournaments, as well as the Semi Open Tournament, will be played on brand new maps, thanks to our partner The Planetary Workshop! 9 new maps will be added for the tournaments. We will then take pro-gamer and community feedback and select the best 3-4 maps ,and add them to the NASL Season 3 rotation.
Maps mentioned so far: TPW Concrete Dreams TPW Lunar Station TPW Ohana TPW Emerald Jungle
Congrats guys, and respect to NASL for doing this, nice way to make up for some of the mistakes from season 1! Gotta say I'm getting excited for this, how about you?
I think MotM should add a strict goal, like... those who made the top 5 in the previous MotM cannot participate in the next one to allow others to have a better chance (but may resume in the following motm). I think this would make a lot of people happy.
So let's say all five finalists were TPW guys in MotM A. In MotM B, those 5 finalists from A cannot participate or submit, which allows others to get a chance to shine, but they can come back in MotM C. That may sound a bit harsh and I know us TPW guys are always anxious to submit new maps, but I really think that the more map-team maps make the top 5, the more steamed up people will get.
Holy shit, TPW partnership with NASL is sick news. Now we have TPW+NASL, ESV and Korean Mapmakers+GOM and ESL+MotM. What will MLG do?
I don't like the idea that top5 can't participate. I also don't like the idea that judges have to change or another tournament is set up or whatever. I think only the mentality needs to change a bit, the structure, judges and mapmakers are not the problem, they are the reason we got this far.
edit: Hopefully someone is making a bigass hype thread about the TPW+NASL news!?!^^
On September 15 2011 02:15 WniO wrote: this is great news for our community but why did they add maps that have been BARELY tested and just came out?
NASL described them as a "testing ground" and then with the help of their high-level players, they will choose the best 3-4 TPW maps and insert them into season 3 for NASL.
On September 15 2011 01:50 IronManSC wrote: So let's say all five finalists were TPW guys in MotM A. In MotM B, those 5 finalists from A cannot participate or submit, which allows others to get a chance to shine, but they can come back in MotM C. That may sound a bit harsh and I know us TPW guys are always anxious to submit new maps, but I really think that the more map-team maps make the top 5, the more steamed up people will get.
Its not really an issue with TPW in and of itself, but more to do with these 5 individual judges anxious to upvote TPW maps, and trying to correlate "original and innovative" with "shakuras retexture"
I think that would be sort of counterproductive. Motm wants the best maps available, Why would they exclude mapmakers for being too good? I also don't think the map pool needs to be increased unless the size of the tournament is increased As well.
As for the innovative maps, let me tell you that you will Be able to See damage Inc in the nasl tournaments, too
On September 15 2011 02:15 WniO wrote: this is great news for our community but why did they add maps that have been BARELY tested and just came out?
that's because nasl was mostly interested in introducing new maps instead of using older existing Maps. But there are also going to Be some older ones included
On September 15 2011 01:50 IronManSC wrote: I think MotM should add a strict goal, like... those who made the top 5 in the previous MotM cannot participate in the next one to allow others to have a better chance (but may resume in the following motm). I think this would make a lot of people happy.
So let's say all five finalists were TPW guys in MotM A. In MotM B, those 5 finalists from A cannot participate or submit, which allows others to get a chance to shine, but they can come back in MotM C. That may sound a bit harsh and I know us TPW guys are always anxious to submit new maps, but I really think that the more map-team maps make the top 5, the more steamed up people will get.
It was, thanks for putting it out there. I'd rather people offer solutions than hold them back to avoid criticism. Sometimes what seems as a poor idea can be built upon to offer a great solution.
On September 15 2011 04:32 FoxyMayhem wrote: It was, thanks for putting it out there. I'd rather people offer solutions than hold them back to avoid criticism. Sometimes what seems as a poor idea can be built upon to offer a great solution.
Perhaps, like only the winner can't enter next month?
Less punishing all around, but gives the other top 5'ers, and some others, a better chance of winning next time, and forces the winner to take their sweet time on their next map. Win/Win.
On September 15 2011 04:32 FoxyMayhem wrote: It was, thanks for putting it out there. I'd rather people offer solutions than hold them back to avoid criticism. Sometimes what seems as a poor idea can be built upon to offer a great solution.
Perhaps, like only the winner can't enter next month?
Less punishing all around, but gives the other top 5'ers, and some others, a better chance of winning next time, and forces the winner to take their sweet time on their next map. Win/Win.
Isn't the winner invited to be a judge for the next month? thereby taking them out of the competition.
On September 15 2011 01:47 FoxyMayhem wrote:I've tested Nightmare Hollow for more than 50 hours, and by the end of today I will have observerd several dozen games with Grandmasters. It's taken months, but I am really committed to making a knock-out map. Hopefully my studying this map will be taken into consideration at some point, should maps be allowed back in at any point.
Which, considering the main problem with the innovative maps is the need for refinement, I believe they should be permitted again at some point, giving us the opportunity to refine.
That is really impressive, and I agree that it should lead to something more than one shot at MotM. Along with a structure that allows resubmission or other possible improvements to recognize work like this, allow me to illustrate a hypothetical situation:
Imagine MotM is a "household name" in the sc2 world in several months and all segments of the community actively look to it each month for rejuvenating ideas and well-executed maps. Major tournaments will watch for potential new maps as a matter of course, and players will discuss maps in threads whose length and cacophony of imba! cries rivals patch notes threads. In this environment, if you submit a map that goes as Nightmare Hollow went--with a map thread detailing all kinds of testing, refinement, consideration and reconsideration, etc.--but it doesn't get picked as a finalist... it may get picked up by a tournament organizer who sees it anyway and likes it! This is what exposure will create. Why do we see Testbug repeatedly at MLG events? It was never the winner of a map tournament. It probably had minimal pro-level testing when the first version was released and some of the iccup maps were being used in the koths and whatnot. Anyway I don't know the answer but the point is that maps get picked up because of existing relationships built up over time, not necessarily because of the merit of a map, or the work that was put into it. Of course these things should count but it's hard to create a system that works perfectly in this way, an the alternative of the web of esports notoriety and politicking is in its own way an approximation of merit-based and innovation-seeking map promotion and use. It moves much more slowly. It always does. The rabblerousers are NOT wrong for agitating against this. I love the ideas and that we have this discussion. In some cases I would prefer less bickering, but whatever, open feelings are good too. By sharing my feelings I hope to impart a certain amount of confidence that things are looking good despite the raw nerves that we all feel when we see our beloved creation left by the wayside, because that's honestly how I feel. I have the utmost sense of auspiciousness about the trajectory of community mapping.
I do have one call to action, however. I would implore all the mappers who start to see success to bring everyone else with them. It's far too early to say that that isn't happening. But it's plain that some of us begin to perceive a tiered mapper community, even if it isn't really. It's been an awesome effort so far. Those of you who garner that wider attention, continue to reach out and support the up-and-comers and the desperate innovators (as I label myself). And in that environment of support, up-and-comers should feel comfortable approaching the shining lights of the map community to work with them, not compete against the prevailing philosophies.
To make this clear, here's an example of what I mean. Now that TPW has a relationship with NASL--which is awesome--I would love to see them exercise their raised status and responsibility to look into including a 3rd party map or two for the NASL open tournament map testing. It would be like sponsoring a mapper who doesn't have a team but who has an awesome creation. To be clear, I'm not saying this is a great idea and it has to happen, I'm saying this would be very cool and it's an example of what I mean in the above paragraph. It might not even have to operate so directly.
Anyway, FoxyMayhem, how on earth did you get grandmasters to play on your map?? I would love that, but I can't ever settle on one map of mine that I think deserves to be perfected to that degree, let alone find access to that level of testing input. ;D
On September 15 2011 06:27 EatThePath wrote: That is really impressive, and I agree that it should lead to something more than one shot at MotM. Along with a structure that allows resubmission or other possible improvements to recognize work like this
That's why I think MotM should select a top10 instead of top5, at the begining it was fine with a top5, there were barely enough good maps to make a top5 anyway, but now there are enough good maps to make a decent 10 (or maybe even 15) map pool every month. Most of these maps are a lot of time wasted if they don't make it to top 5, most of them won't be played ever again and that's a terrible waste.
On September 15 2011 06:27 EatThePath wrote: Imagine MotM is a "household name" in the sc2 world in several months and all segments of the community actively look to it each month for rejuvenating ideas and well-executed maps.
that's why I want the special awards back in MotM, so the maps and mappers who don't make it to the top5 can get some highlight. Even if I never made it to top5 because I'm a very bad map maker I had a texture award once, so I know my maps are stupid and imbalanced but have good aesthetics (and that's why Foxy asked me to do the aesthetics on Nighmare hollow, wich has the greatest underwater ever thanks to my artistic talent and godlike modesty).
On September 15 2011 06:27 EatThePath wrote: To make this clear, here's an example of what I mean. Now that TPW has a relationship with NASL--which is awesome--I would love to see them exercise their raised status and responsibility to look into including a 3rd party map or two for the NASL open tournament map testing. It would be like sponsoring a mapper who doesn't have a team but who has an awesome creation. To be clear, I'm not saying this is a great idea and it has to happen, I'm saying this would be very cool and it's an example of what I mean in the above paragraph. It might not even have to operate so directly.
No, seriously, don't even expect that. If you're good enough just try to join TPW, if they're serious about their team they have no interest to promote mapmakers who are not part of it, if you're really that good they should try to recruit you, not try to promote you as a freelancer.
On September 15 2011 06:27 EatThePath wrote: Anyway, FoxyMayhem, how on earth did you get grandmasters to play on your map?? I would love that, but I can't ever settle on one map of mine that I think deserves to be perfected to that degree, let alone find access to that level of testing input. ;D
Just ask them ? Try to run a tournament on your maps, eventually you'll get some masters to play it. I have master players in my tournament every month (and master on EU is better than master on NA as everyone knows).
Oh, and also huge GG to TPW for your partnership with NASL, if I didn't decide to quit mapmaking I'd definitely try to join your team. Wait, what ? I quit ? Yes, I quit mapmaking, that was my last MotM and I failed again, sour.
Don't leave fenX Your map were always so good looking I always taught you were one of the best with working with texture and doodad. I would have wish someday you make the texture and doodad of one my map.
This is a sad day for map making losing one of his best artist
EPT
