LoS_Dark Matter is my first map with the LoS tag. It is a 4-player rotational symetri map with a bit of a gimmick. Mains are placed on lowground with an inbase natural on the highground. The mainchoke has line of sight blockers that the defender can wall in behind and get vision by placing units or structures on the highgrounds around the choke.
Size 156x156 Bases 16 (12 standard, 4 with 6 mineral patches and 1 gas) Available: EU NA
Protoss wall in with stalkers on highground for vision HQ
Terran wall in with marines on the highgrounds for vision HQ
Zerg base with 1 creep tumor providing connection between the hatcheries and enough creep to place a spine crawler close to the choke. Overlords providing vision. HQ
Thanks to my new team LoS for picking me up and providing feedback and motivation as well and to Barrin for always providing endless amounts of feedback.
If someone were to wall off flush against the LOS blockers, could a sacrificial ling get vision behind the wall by running head first into it? If not then scouting on this map would be a nightmare.
Love the aesthetics, the infested space platform look is awesome.
In trying to make a few melee maps myself, i know how much you must want some feedback. So im going to be blunt about it. Dont take any critisism personaly, just constructive
1) I cant quite see the choke on the main very well, but is it the same style as the one on Tal'Darim? It looks wider, and with no ramp im not sure if thats a good idea. The combination of LOS blockers and the high ground to either side of the choke for easy stalker placement may counteract this anyway however.
2) The in-base naturals are ginooooooormous. Im all for the backdoor natural itself, easy to take but low on mins. But being so large it makes it very hard to defend from drops, muta's, and elevator tactics.
3) I very much like the center layout the watchtower would only be nessicary to control in cross map possitions, as the attack routes otherwise wouldnt be covered by it. Giving games a little more variety depending on spawn positions.
4) The map in general seems very open, favoring zergs to get easy surrounds and terrans to get good concaves. The smallest choke seems to be at the main, which is actualy somewhat wide.
5) Probably not intentional (I hope) but theres a swastika in the middle 0.0.
Very exelent map, as i said i love the aesthetics and the high ground around the choke :D
On August 29 2011 06:05 Soluhwin wrote: If someone were to wall off flush against the LOS blockers, could a sacrificial ling get vision behind the wall by running head first into it? If not then scouting on this map would be a nightmare.
standing on the los blocker will give you vision of both sides of it so that is not an issue.
On August 29 2011 06:08 Gl!tch wrote: Love the aesthetics, the infested space platform look is awesome.
In trying to make a few melee maps myself, i know how much you must want some feedback. So im going to be blunt about it. Dont take any critisism personaly, just constructive
1) I cant quite see the choke on the main very well, but is it the same style as the one on Tal'Darim? It looks wider, and with no ramp im not sure if thats a good idea. The combination of LOS blockers and the high ground to either side of the choke for easy stalker placement may counteract this anyway however.
2) The in-base naturals are ginooooooormous. Im all for the backdoor natural itself, easy to take but low on mins. But being so large it makes it very hard to defend from drops, muta's, and elevator tactics.
3) I very much like the center layout the watchtower would only be nessicary to control in cross map possitions, as the attack routes otherwise wouldnt be covered by it. Giving games a little more variety depending on spawn positions.
4) The map in general seems very open, favoring zergs to get easy surrounds and terrans to get good concaves. The smallest choke seems to be at the main, which is actualy somewhat wide.
5) Probably not intentional (I hope) but theres a swastika in the middle 0.0.
Very exelent map, as i said i love the aesthetics and the high ground around the choke :D
1. The choke can be walled off with a standard 2 supply depot/1 barrack or 1gate/1 cyber/pylon.
2. Air play will be very strong on this map. There is a good amount of space around both main and nat and the mineral lines are lined up against that space. It is intentional
5. There is. I considered not posting analyser because of it. But then ppl would just keep asking for one
On August 29 2011 06:44 Archvil3 wrote: PvP is going to be like Tal'Darim Altar and similair maps. Not much can be done about it, any map without a ramp will be like that.
I do believe that 4gate on bel'shire beach is quite bad (I think Artosis said that at least once), due to the pretecting highground. That in mind, I think that this map is great as a PvP macro map, though Im not a P player and can only rely on what I hear (and a little bit of offracing...)
On the map: Great layout (wanted to do those Pipes myself in my next map, now I have to rethink :S) Nice thinking with the main choke and the backdoor expansion, but the only issue I can see is that, even when you sacrifice a zergling to poke at the front and put it on the LoS-Blockers, wouldn't it only give you vision in a straigth line, and therefore be horrible at counting units (which is the only really reliable scouting source in ZvP). Hm... but even if it were that way, I guess it wouldn't still be to imba and I guess it is just something one had to get used to.
The Watchtower might be an issue, as it is only one and placed in a way, that it only really matters when you are in cross position, for anything else you will need more spotters. I could see that being an issue in the Z MUs, and in PvT against early Terran attacks.
On August 29 2011 06:44 Archvil3 wrote: PvP is going to be like Tal'Darim Altar and similair maps. Not much can be done about it, any map without a ramp will be like that.
I want to find out exactly how much you gain from the high ground. If you can do a full wall with a pylon, I don't think a 4gate can power through into a clear lead while taking shots from the high ground. If you bring stalkers up to attack the wall while zealots attack for vision, you start losing stalkers. If you only attack with zealots on the wall, you are losing time and money. Obviously you can break the wall but will it have cost too much?
Also, if you put a cannon right at the corner pivot (where it can hit everything), maybe you can do a late blink timing with a nexus in there somewhere, with a +1 followup.
I'm sorry to be a downer, but the textures as well as overall map looks so similar to Terminus. It still loooks really balanced and could be solid to play on, but a tad repetitive. Love LoS though
On August 29 2011 09:25 wattabeast wrote: I'm sorry to be a downer, but the textures as well as overall map looks so similar to Terminus. It still loooks really balanced and could be solid to play on, but a tad repetitive. Love LoS though
You sure it looks like terminus? Terminus use most of the texture from the tileset Castanar and this map use mostly for the metal parts Braxis Alpha. I'm happy to have this map in LoS, but I I have to admit that we will try to test it a lot to see how much all the gimmicks impacts the game. I don't see that much of similarity with Terminus in terms of layout wise. It got a in-base natural, base on low ground, even the center doesn't look at Terminus. In the end, I don't see any similarity. Don't forget that rotanionnal symmetries maps all look a like in term of layout wise, But I think this one as a lot of unique feature.
I'm happy to have this map in LoS, but I I have to admit that we will try to test it a lot to see how much all the gimmicks impacts the game.
Yeah, this is something i run into alot making new maps I always want to try a bunch of new things but you cant add too many new twists to just one map. You wont know how each new feature (ie. A xel'naga tower controled by air, or a low ground main, or high ground overlooking a choke) will interact with eachother. Similar to the way Blizzard cant make to many balance changes at once, because making 2 things change might ruin something whereas just 1 would be ok.
I phrased that wrong. At a glance it resembles terminus greatly, but after a further look I am wrong. It is just how the overview looked in my eyes that it resembled Terminus. The bases still look similar, but I was wrong and I am sorry for that comment. Still huge fan of LoS I do like how there are 2 possible thirds based on spawn positions, and I'd be happy to test this map if you guys need it I'm in the MotM staff room. (dia zerg, NA)
I think I would rather see the map set up more like this...
Reason being is the inbase natural is only a 1/2 base and if you want to take another full base you have to spread yourself out pretty dang far. So now you're most likely going to do some 1 1/2 base timing attack or just some 1 base. I think doing this will make the Third a lot more protected but will still be fairly hard to take. But with the back of the 3rd facing where your inbase natural is you won't have to worry as much about air harass, which there is tons of it currently.
The Red star, I'm in up in the air about it. part of my feels like you should get rid of the ramp there and just make it non-pathable. Would help zergs out with scouting as well because they could park an overlord up there.
Overall it's a great map, I love it a lot although I think it still needs some minor tweaks to make it better.
Does the inbase natural really have to be that big? As of right now there's just as much space at that inbase natural then you have at your main.
after playing on it multiple times i think that the map is a little too dark, now this isnt a bad thing since units/buildings really pop out from the terrain but maybe some lights could do the trick. its a great start though for the layout, but the entrance needs to be changed a tad.
This map looks really great. Looks like cross positions would set up for some sick lategame, with five easy bases and and interesting high ground feature to battle over, that doesnt directly decide the game ala Antiga.
With a regular main and nat setup you would have enough space to make the ccw third saver and have less positional imbalance, but this would be a different map.
besides concerns of positional imbalances - that always occur in rotational three or fourplayer maps - i think this is quite a solid map. and i am looking forward to see your main/nat setup in action!
Oh my god an innovative 4p rotational map! Quickly, kill it!
I definitely like the innovation in this one, really want to see how it plays out. I'm a bit concerned about changing the natural to a 6min1gas.
As others have said the main+natural seems to be a bit out of proportion. Normally a main should be around 40 CC units (correct me if I'm wrong) and this one already has near 50 + the natural is huge as well. I don't necessarily think that's bad but normally you want to keep everything as small as possible, right?^^
On August 29 2011 18:29 Ragoo wrote: Oh my god an innovative 4p rotational map! Quickly, kill it!
I definitely like the innovation in this one, really want to see how it plays out. I'm a bit concerned about changing the natural to a 6min1gas.
As others have said the main+natural seems to be a bit out of proportion. Normally a main should be around 40 CC units (correct me if I'm wrong) and this one already has near 50 + the natural is huge as well. I don't necessarily think that's bad but normally you want to keep everything as small as possible, right?^^
i think 40CC already is to big. 25-35 is fine and should be made accordingly to a bigger/smaller nat. bigger mains are harder to scout (offensivly and defensivly) and easier to drop.
the main is quite circular in shape, so it is not that difficult (50CC size and long/bend is worse), but still it is really big. i do not ask for killing the concept, but at least changing the mai and nat to good proportions. this should free enough space to set the ccw third back a bit and make the map even better.
On August 29 2011 18:29 Ragoo wrote: Oh my god an innovative 4p rotational map! Quickly, kill it!
I definitely like the innovation in this one, really want to see how it plays out. I'm a bit concerned about changing the natural to a 6min1gas.
As others have said the main+natural seems to be a bit out of proportion. Normally a main should be around 40 CC units (correct me if I'm wrong) and this one already has near 50 + the natural is huge as well. I don't necessarily think that's bad but normally you want to keep everything as small as possible, right?^^
i think 40CC already is to big. 25-35 is fine and should be made accordingly to a bigger/smaller nat. bigger mains are harder to scout (offensivly and defensivly) and easier to drop.
the main is quite circular in shape, so it is not that difficult (50CC size and long/bend is worse), but still it is really big. i do not ask for killing the concept, but at least changing the mai and nat to good proportions. this should free enough space to set the ccw third back a bit and make the map even better.
I think the analyzer might be counting the whole area including the two high grounds. When you play the map, it definitely doesn't feel too big. Terran will want that extra space at the in-base expansion. Also, since that is all space behind your main choke, who cares what the proportions are? There's no rule that says you need a bigger blob next to your starting CC than anywhere else. ;D
This map is deceptively subtle with how the choke plays out. It's definitely not too easy to defend. You only get a mini expo anyway. I would be in favour of shifting the 3rd just a little bit closer to promote taking the outside expansion. The four bases closest to the center need to be juicier for being so vulnerable, and they should have two geysers so as not to be anti-zerg.
Played a lot of pvp to test out the choke. We all agreed the space outside the LosB should be slightly narrower so you can't avoid stalker fire from either cliff. I don't think 4gate is mandatory because attackers will be taking enough fire walking in, a good 3gate should hold. Sentries are useless though, unless you can pull off a trick by hiding the sentry until they try to walk through a partial wall-in and split them in half. Blink is basically mandatory since there is so much cliff space and so much maneuvering room in general.
Still want to play more games, I'll be around in MOTM channel on NA next couple days hoping for some testing.
On August 29 2011 18:29 Ragoo wrote: Oh my god an innovative 4p rotational map! Quickly, kill it!
I definitely like the innovation in this one, really want to see how it plays out. I'm a bit concerned about changing the natural to a 6min1gas.
As others have said the main+natural seems to be a bit out of proportion. Normally a main should be around 40 CC units (correct me if I'm wrong) and this one already has near 50 + the natural is huge as well. I don't necessarily think that's bad but normally you want to keep everything as small as possible, right?^^
i think 40CC already is to big. 25-35 is fine and should be made accordingly to a bigger/smaller nat. bigger mains are harder to scout (offensivly and defensivly) and easier to drop.
the main is quite circular in shape, so it is not that difficult (50CC size and long/bend is worse), but still it is really big. i do not ask for killing the concept, but at least changing the mai and nat to good proportions. this should free enough space to set the ccw third back a bit and make the map even better.
I think the analyzer might be counting the whole area including the two high grounds. When you play the map, it definitely doesn't feel too big. Terran will want that extra space at the in-base expansion. Also, since that is all space behind your main choke, who cares what the proportions are? There's no rule that says you need a bigger blob next to your starting CC than anywhere else. ;D
This map is deceptively subtle with how the choke plays out. It's definitely not too easy to defend. You only get a mini expo anyway.
I would be in favour of shifting the 3rd just a little bit closer to promote taking the outside expansion. The four bases closest to the center need to be juicier for being so vulnerable, and they should have two geysers so as not to be anti-zerg.+ Show Spoiler +
Played a lot of pvp to test out the choke. We all agreed the space outside the LosB should be slightly narrower so you can't avoid stalker fire from either cliff. I don't think 4gate is mandatory because attackers will be taking enough fire walking in, a good 3gate should hold. Sentries are useless though, unless you can pull off a trick by hiding the sentry until they try to walk through a partial wall-in and split them in half. Blink is basically mandatory since there is so much cliff space and so much maneuvering room in general.
Still want to play more games, I'll be around in MOTM channel on NA next couple days hoping for some testing
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this!
it is all about what you do after having the main and nat setup. The space in the main is not an issue, but the space could be used differently really. the "fourth" is something you might want to take to expand away from your opponent in the current setup, but it is vulnarable from the centre. so either the third should be a definite third that you take before going ccw or the third and the fourth have to be equaly save.
Okay just played on it and I take back my previous concerns. The nat and main has fiitting proportions and the nat only having 6mins1gas is great in relation to the third
Aesthetics are nice and solid and from what I saw PvP should play out fine (possibly better than on normal maps cause you can expand easier?!)
Thanks for all the feedback guys, its pretty awesome.
The changes I'm going to be looking at first is to move the third closer to the main choke. Even when you spawn counterclock wise from your opponent I want you to take that as your third and not consider the middle expansion as your third. I think that would cause a positional imbalance issue if you were to take that as your third while your oponent get a much easier defendable third.
Second change is going to be to make the middle expansions full mining bases with 8m2g instead of 6m1g.
I've also had a lot of feedback regarding the choke. Some say it should be smaller to make it a better defendable position. My worry is that it becomes too good and nearly impossible to attack.
I will also have another look at the aesthetics, I hear improvements can be made.
I'm gonna start working on the changes as soon as I get rid of my cold(thanks MLG for messing up my sleep schedule and depriving me of my sleep causing me to leave work today with a cold and a massive headache! )
The thirds have been pushed a bit closer to the choke/natural. It was a bit too hard to take and defend when spawning ccw compared to the cw who had a much easier 3rd. I may change it a bit more and push it back further if it's still the case that ccw spawn is worse off then cw.
The middle expansions are now full 8m/2g bases.
I will work on an aesthetic update as well. More creep and destruction of the map to come!
I finally did the update that I wanted to make 2 months ago.
All lowground was raised to highground and all highground was raised to double highground. This allowed me redesign the center and put it on lowground.
The small highground near 3rd/4th that was previously pathable is now covered in doodads and unpathable.
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