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your Country52798 Posts
On July 16 2011 00:15 DerNebel wrote:
I won't say the map is too "chokey". Shakurah is chokey and fine. I believe your problem lies in how straightforward the desing is. The middle does have all these chokes, but the problem is the extremely small distance between them. This means that you are hyper-advocating a map split, since there really are no ground attack routes to go by that can't easily be reached and fortified by an alert defender. Draw some inspiration from shakurahs here, and add alternate attack routes, while keeping the center as an attractive spot to hold.
*Thinks really hard* Well, I could connect the two center high ground areas and rearrange some ramps, while removing the rocks leading into the third. This would also address issues of the watchtowers being useless.
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your Country52798 Posts
Version 3.1 is out!
+ Show Spoiler +
Only two changes:
The middle is more open.
The semi-island rocks could be passed through by smaller units (it was really weird O_o). No longer!
Edit: A third change: The smaller middle ramps have line of sight blockers at the top.
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Nobody has any criticism? It must be perfect! I'll send it to all of the tournaments!
Seriously, I know that there's something wrong. Just tell me  . Be as brutally honest as you can.
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tbh everything just looks super wrong.
For a start: chokes are way, way too tight. You can almost never place one width ramps/chokes on anything other than your main and even two width ramps are super narrow.
nat - nat looks very close.
Aesthetics are beyond horrible, can't tell if you tried or just go for layout first?
Looks like you can easily abuse reaper bunker rush on the nat with that cliff towards the middle. I personally wouldn't do that, cause I think it's very very strong on Tal'Darim already.
Can't really tell if the map is too small, kinda looks like it but then again as I said everything looks so wrong...
Don't take it personal please but you have to improve so much... good luck with that 
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Could you have some map analyzer images. Those help alot. The gold also seems very easy for zergs to take if they have control of the middle (rocks maybe??). Also are the thirds siegable form the red places because that would be a major problem.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LoMuD.jpg)
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your Country52798 Posts
On July 19 2011 06:49 Ragoo wrote:tbh everything just looks super wrong. For a start: chokes are way, way too tight. You can almost never place one width ramps/chokes on anything other than your main and even two width ramps are super narrow. nat - nat looks very close. Aesthetics are beyond horrible, can't tell if you tried or just go for layout first? Looks like you can easily abuse reaper bunker rush on the nat with that cliff towards the middle. I personally wouldn't do that, cause I think it's very very strong on Tal'Darim already. Can't really tell if the map is too small, kinda looks like it but then again as I said everything looks so wrong... Don't take it personal please but you have to improve so much... good luck with that
Which is better, THIS (1.0)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7R96A.jpg)
or THIS? (current version)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/V4e7z.jpg)
Tell me that the current version isn't way better. ^_^. Of course, there are a couple of things I'm going to add to the current version that were in 1.0.
I'm thinking of removing the rocks into the third and making the ramp/high ground area wider to help against the seigable third. It is currently very easy to completely own a zerg from that ledge.
The aesthetics are preliminary, meaning I'll try to make it prettier but it will turn out a complete disaster .
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Could you post size of the map and analyzer pics (nat-nat distance and summary is the only important thing I want to see).
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On July 19 2011 07:25 Ragoo wrote:
Could you post size of the map and analyzer pics (nat-nat distance and summary is the only important thing I want to see).
Haha so true.
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your Country52798 Posts
On July 19 2011 07:25 Ragoo wrote:
Could you post size of the map and analyzer pics (nat-nat distance and summary is the only important thing I want to see).
I don't have the program 
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your Country52798 Posts
On July 19 2011 06:52 AaronJ wrote:Could you have some map analyzer images. Those help alot. The gold also seems very easy for zergs to take if they have control of the middle (rocks maybe??). Also are the thirds siegable form the red places because that would be a major problem.
The third is siegable I believe, I'll be fixing that.
Rocks on the gold do seem like a reasonable option.
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Alright, I'll just begin with the suggestions.
The main is pretty nicely laid out. Good work on that. My only concern is that the ramp leading to the natural doesn't have much space to build to the side. This can really be a pain for Terran for add-ons and rallying units because there isn't enough space.
--- I would like to see the ramp moved slightly farther away from the map bounds.
The natural has a really awkward shape. with so much terrain sticking out, it makes very awkward building placement, with no good place to put an army. If you build next to the natural's CC, then units can't walk around very easily. If you build on the edges of the natural, you're completely vulnerable from the low ground, and units then move through the mineral line to get out. The really long piece of terrain jutting out is just a nuisance to deal with proxies, reapers/colossi, drops, and nydus.
--- Try to make the natural more rounded, like on Neo Enigma.
The ramp leading out of the natural is really far away, and doesn't allow for easy troop movement towards the gold. This is a problem because defending these expansions requires units too spread out too far. You can take the expansions in your corner, but this really doesn't leave many options for aggressive or defensive expanding.
--- I suggest altering the ramp to something like this.
The expansions in the corners are really too tightly packed. This is a problem because
- The expansions cannot be split between the players
- There is little army movement required to defend the expansions
- Once you take one, the other(s) is free
Some maps have concepts that allow for close expansions, but rarely in 2 player maps. Try to focus on making each expansion really have a meaning in the map- which part of the map must you control, and how does it fit the concept?
--- I would adjust the 3rd and gold to something like this.
The center would still need something to block up how open it is. Right now, there's too much space to get surrounds and flanks. The high ground doesn't really add a choke, it just gives a bit of different in terrain (using vision to your advantage when retreating). I'm not really sure what should go here, but you should experiment with adding a high ground structure to the middle like this.
Hopefully this helps!
[edit] I also suggest removing the straight lines, they look pretty ugly and they are annoying to build next to.
Oh- If you want to do some aesthetics, you might try doing some aesthetics on BelShir (considered the easiest). Here is a bad map I made on BelShir (it doesn't look very good, but its not super difficult).
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your Country52798 Posts
On July 19 2011 12:18 monitor wrote:Alright, I'll just begin with the suggestions. The main is pretty nicely laid out. Good work on that. My only concern is that the ramp leading to the natural doesn't have much space to build to the side. This can really be a pain for Terran for add-ons and rallying units because there isn't enough space. --- I would like to see the ramp moved slightly farther away from the map bounds. The natural has a really awkward shape. with so much terrain sticking out, it makes very awkward building placement, with no good place to put an army. If you build next to the natural's CC, then units can't walk around very easily. If you build on the edges of the natural, you're completely vulnerable from the low ground, and units then move through the mineral line to get out. The really long piece of terrain jutting out is just a nuisance to deal with proxies, reapers/colossi, drops, and nydus. --- Try to make the natural more rounded, like on Neo Enigma. The ramp leading out of the natural is really far away, and doesn't allow for easy troop movement towards the gold. This is a problem because defending these expansions requires units too spread out too far. You can take the expansions in your corner, but this really doesn't leave many options for aggressive or defensive expanding. --- I suggest altering the ramp to something like this.The expansions in the corners are really too tightly packed. This is a problem because - The expansions cannot be split between the players - There is little army movement required to defend the expansions - Once you take one, the other(s) is free Some maps have concepts that allow for close expansions, but rarely in 2 player maps. Try to focus on making each expansion really have a meaning in the map- which part of the map must you control, and how does it fit the concept? --- I would adjust the 3rd and gold to something like this.The center would still need something to block up how open it is. Right now, there's too much space to get surrounds and flanks. The high ground doesn't really add a choke, it just gives a bit of different in terrain (using vision to your advantage when retreating). I'm not really sure what should go here, but you should experiment with adding a high ground structure to the middle like this.Hopefully this helps! [edit] I also suggest removing the straight lines, they look pretty ugly and they are annoying to build next to. Oh- If you want to do some aesthetics, you might try doing some aesthetics on BelShir (considered the easiest). Here is a bad map I made on BelShir (it doesn't look very good, but its not super difficult).
Working on some of your suggestions and a few others that others have come up with.
I made a map on bel'shir. It was the worst looking map I've ever seen in the entire world of starcraft.
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your Country52798 Posts
Steppes of Bore Version 4.0 has come out!
Changes: Third has been pushed back slightly, gold moved, natural completely redone. The ramp leading down into the third is wider, not blocked by rocks, that high ground area is wider, the gold has destructible debris blocking a command center/hatch/nexus.
Problems still lingering from before: The natural is massive. Every base but the main and natural (edit: and third) is siegable.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Iyim3.jpg)
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On July 20 2011 02:50 TehTemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 12:18 monitor wrote:Alright, I'll just begin with the suggestions. The main is pretty nicely laid out. Good work on that. My only concern is that the ramp leading to the natural doesn't have much space to build to the side. This can really be a pain for Terran for add-ons and rallying units because there isn't enough space. --- I would like to see the ramp moved slightly farther away from the map bounds. The natural has a really awkward shape. with so much terrain sticking out, it makes very awkward building placement, with no good place to put an army. If you build next to the natural's CC, then units can't walk around very easily. If you build on the edges of the natural, you're completely vulnerable from the low ground, and units then move through the mineral line to get out. The really long piece of terrain jutting out is just a nuisance to deal with proxies, reapers/colossi, drops, and nydus. --- Try to make the natural more rounded, like on Neo Enigma. The ramp leading out of the natural is really far away, and doesn't allow for easy troop movement towards the gold. This is a problem because defending these expansions requires units too spread out too far. You can take the expansions in your corner, but this really doesn't leave many options for aggressive or defensive expanding. --- I suggest altering the ramp to something like this.The expansions in the corners are really too tightly packed. This is a problem because - The expansions cannot be split between the players - There is little army movement required to defend the expansions - Once you take one, the other(s) is free Some maps have concepts that allow for close expansions, but rarely in 2 player maps. Try to focus on making each expansion really have a meaning in the map- which part of the map must you control, and how does it fit the concept? --- I would adjust the 3rd and gold to something like this.The center would still need something to block up how open it is. Right now, there's too much space to get surrounds and flanks. The high ground doesn't really add a choke, it just gives a bit of different in terrain (using vision to your advantage when retreating). I'm not really sure what should go here, but you should experiment with adding a high ground structure to the middle like this.Hopefully this helps! [edit] I also suggest removing the straight lines, they look pretty ugly and they are annoying to build next to. Oh- If you want to do some aesthetics, you might try doing some aesthetics on BelShir (considered the easiest). Here is a bad map I made on BelShir (it doesn't look very good, but its not super difficult). Working on some of your suggestions and a few others that others have come up with. I made a map on bel'shir. It was the worst looking map I've ever seen in the entire world of starcraft.
Just want to make sure, you know the underlined words in my post are links to images?
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your Country52798 Posts
On July 20 2011 03:03 monitor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 02:50 TehTemplar wrote:On July 19 2011 12:18 monitor wrote:Alright, I'll just begin with the suggestions. The main is pretty nicely laid out. Good work on that. My only concern is that the ramp leading to the natural doesn't have much space to build to the side. This can really be a pain for Terran for add-ons and rallying units because there isn't enough space. --- I would like to see the ramp moved slightly farther away from the map bounds. The natural has a really awkward shape. with so much terrain sticking out, it makes very awkward building placement, with no good place to put an army. If you build next to the natural's CC, then units can't walk around very easily. If you build on the edges of the natural, you're completely vulnerable from the low ground, and units then move through the mineral line to get out. The really long piece of terrain jutting out is just a nuisance to deal with proxies, reapers/colossi, drops, and nydus. --- Try to make the natural more rounded, like on Neo Enigma. The ramp leading out of the natural is really far away, and doesn't allow for easy troop movement towards the gold. This is a problem because defending these expansions requires units too spread out too far. You can take the expansions in your corner, but this really doesn't leave many options for aggressive or defensive expanding. --- I suggest altering the ramp to something like this.The expansions in the corners are really too tightly packed. This is a problem because - The expansions cannot be split between the players - There is little army movement required to defend the expansions - Once you take one, the other(s) is free Some maps have concepts that allow for close expansions, but rarely in 2 player maps. Try to focus on making each expansion really have a meaning in the map- which part of the map must you control, and how does it fit the concept? --- I would adjust the 3rd and gold to something like this.The center would still need something to block up how open it is. Right now, there's too much space to get surrounds and flanks. The high ground doesn't really add a choke, it just gives a bit of different in terrain (using vision to your advantage when retreating). I'm not really sure what should go here, but you should experiment with adding a high ground structure to the middle like this.Hopefully this helps! [edit] I also suggest removing the straight lines, they look pretty ugly and they are annoying to build next to. Oh- If you want to do some aesthetics, you might try doing some aesthetics on BelShir (considered the easiest). Here is a bad map I made on BelShir (it doesn't look very good, but its not super difficult). Working on some of your suggestions and a few others that others have come up with. I made a map on bel'shir. It was the worst looking map I've ever seen in the entire world of starcraft. Just want to make sure, you know the underlined words in my post are links to images?
I'm not stupid
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your Country52798 Posts
Ok, I did some tests in-game.
Main-to-main is about 162 (72 seconds with a marine, ~57 and 2/3 seconds with an SCV). The third is NOT siegable. 5 mineral patches and a geyser of the gold are siegable from that ledge, along with both geysers and 4 mineral fields of the fourth (blue).
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I think the map is improved from the last version you posted.
If you want to make the natural smaller, I think that you should simply move the face of the natural toward the center of the map closer to the minerals and bring the expansions in the corner slightly closer to the nat.
If it were me, I would do something like this:
+ Show Spoiler +
You could also enlarge the main into the natural to reduce the size of the natural.
edit: also, for aesthetics, my suggestion is to replace that green xil rock texture in the main and nat with a brick texture from aiur or belshir, SC2 rock textures of that type just look really bad when used in large areas imo.
edit2: I don't have the program
it looks like the newest versions of the analyzer are here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162365
you should try it, it's really useful.
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your Country52798 Posts
On August 27 2011 12:08 Namrufus wrote:I think the map is improved from the last version you posted. If you want to make the natural smaller, I think that you should simply move the face of the natural toward the center of the map closer to the minerals and bring the expansions in the corner slightly closer to the nat. If it were me, I would do something like this: + Show Spoiler +You could also enlarge the main into the natural to reduce the size of the natural. edit: also, for aesthetics, my suggestion is to replace that green xil rock texture in the main and nat with a brick texture from aiur or belshir, SC2 rock textures of that type just look really bad when used in large areas imo. edit2: it looks like the newest versions of the analyzer are here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162365you should try it, it's really useful.
Thanks!
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Hey, I took a spin on your map since you've been so since to bump my two map threads and here are my thoughts:
(I know this point isn't that important to you but...) To me the geometrical asthetic is more important than the actual textures/doodads and I think that your latest version is not too bad in that regard.
On to stuff you do care about:
~ Someone else mentioned changing the ramp out of the main. I got P on this playing random and I have to say it was tricky to figure out exactly where to place my buildings for the choke. I did wind up making a choke but it took my an extra pylon to fill the right gap. I didn't play around with it any more than a single game, but you might want to play around with it a bit and figure out optimal wall off arrangements for P/T and maybe use some Add Texture to the spots where these buildings should go to make it more intuitive for first time map users so this does not wind up turning them off. At least that's what I would do if I didn't want to change the shape of the choke for some reason.
~ Also, since this is supposed to be a remake of steppes (or at least based on it), which I assume you wanted to make a more friendly remake, I thought that the ramp out of the natural, was actually less friendly as far as holding a push is concerned. It seems much easier to just get in up the ramp since the path is so straightforward. There isn't as much wrap around and pathing getting stuck on the corner of the ramp/cliff the way there is on steppes if you just A-move. Also I think the lack of LOSB actually make it more friendly to the attacker since they never really have to worry what is in front of them before the ramp. This may be intended and I don't know if it is better or worse, but that is my impression.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OFK2D.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pcHiX.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Dwenb.jpg)
