|
CarZera -> Mar Zera
This thread concist of the older version of Mar Zera and are more or less abondoned.
I have a new thread for the latest version.
(I could no longer keep all the info in the same thread, which is the main reason I posted a new thread)
Ver 1
Overveiw Image
+ Show Spoiler +
Players: 4
Map size: 166x166 (playable)
Bases: 16 (main, nat, third, fourth x4, all regular, no gold)
XelNaga Towers: 3 around the centre
Mains cross-distance: ~158
Mains short distance: ~136
- Third and fourth positioned on each side of the main
- Backdoor ramp between third and nat blocked by rocks.
- Destroy additional rocks on the map to open alternative attacking paths for late game (early game you can sneak through the gaps).
- 3 Xel'Naga Towers in the map middle.
Ver 2
Overveiw Image
+ Show Spoiler +
Bases: 16 (4 gold)
XelNaga Towers: 4
Short main-to-main: 140.3
Cross main-to-main: 164
Short nat-to-nat: 101
Cross nat-to-nat: 126
- Nat is no longer siegable to the same extent
- Fourth replaced with gold expo closer ot the centre.
- Rotational symetry instead of mirrored. The path around the map centre is no longer blocked by rocks, but is quite narrow and surrounds the high ground gold.
- Rocks by the gold bases and nat backdoors only.
- 4 Xel'Naga Towers by the gold bases, spotting the short rush distance paths rather than the centre area.
- Middle area changed completely. See images below.
Detail images ver 1
+ Show Spoiler +Middle + Show Spoiler +Rocked paths between thirds (pathing) + Show Spoiler +Close-up on 1/4 slice (pathing) + Show Spoiler +Map Analyzer Images+ Show Spoiler +Overview ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Qz1Bb.jpg) (does not display huge DSRs. Does not display some path-blocking doodads) Shortest path, 2 to 8 ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/vdbD0.jpg) Shortest path, 4 to 8 ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/vGoYU.jpg) (again, ignores some doodads - the distance is a bit longer. That cliff-walk path ignores the huge DSRs) Shortest path, 10 to 8 ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/WnFq9.jpg) (same error here)
Detail images ver 2
+ Show Spoiler +The new middle+ Show Spoiler +The 3rd, gold and XNT(if XNTs could reveal pathing  ) + Show Spoiler +Scenario 1+ Show Spoiler +In this story, the zerg has mass-expanded - both nat, third and a fourth is taken. Two creep tumors created a lane between main and nat and she destroyed the backdoor rocks to access the third with only one additional tumor. Zerg has also expanded at the gold, but this treck takes three creep tumors to create a creep lane to. Players may choose to keep the rocks between nat and third and take a gold as third instead. Scenario 2+ Show Spoiler +In this other scenario, probably cross-position 1v1 play, the zerg has left the nat backdoor rocks intact, expanding to the nearby golds instead, using a total of 3 creep tumors for the closer left-hand gold and a total of 4 to reach the right-hand gold.
|
Hey I don't have much time to type it all out so I put it in point-form:
Pros:
- Great use of symmetry
- No analyzer for distances? Looks like all the same distance
- Great detail work (doodads, organic vs. manmade cliffs, height tool, textures)
- Original design, with lots of alternative paths (enabled by rocks)
Cons:
- The three rocks seperating horizontal spawns have an opening; intentional?
- Without knocking down rocks, all paths go through middle; Consider opening edges of the map w/ ramps?
- Middle area only has 1 fog doodad; intentional? 
Great looking map, I'd love to see more of the texture work in-game..
|
Haha oneil, I like your cons best. Yeah the gap is intentional (updating OP), which effectively nullifies your second point .. I think?
I thought four or two fog doodads might get too heavy on some comps It does look a bit weird though. However, the visuals are subject to change (I have two or three textures I havn't used yet - I'd like to make the map overall lighter if possible).
Please focus on gameplay cons and pros, though 
|
why is the exterior so plain? is it water, sorta hard to tell. the middle area looks pretty cool.
|
great looking map!
my only comment is the chokes to the 3rd/4ths seem narrow and too easily blocked off with bunkers/cannons... anyway of opening up the paths to the bases?
|
I just want to make sure you're aware the natural is quite vulnerable to lower-ground tanks and the vespene placement hinders troops rushing the cliff to shoot down at them:
(red is approx. tank range, I guestimated based on the 13 range)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/MFaDu.jpg)
|
Thats a good valid point. I was aware of it when I made it, but eventually felt I had to squeece in the nat there. Perhaps that high ground next to the geysers does not help either?
I supose tank siegeing of the nat gas/minerals is something that should be avoided. Most maps do, when thinking about it.
What change do you suggest?
|
You could take the left and right high grounds (where the lava is) & move the expansion to where they are, make them high yields. In close positions this would encourage a player to expand away from his/her opponent. Then alter it so that the siege tanks cannot hit it.
Edit: I forgot to mention, very nice looking and clean map ^_^.
Idk, just an idea.
-cLvPanda
|
@PandaBlunt
Thanks but I'm not sure I'm getting what you suggest exactly. Are you saying I should move the third expo (the left hand one) closer to the map centre and make it into a HY? I think that would be a very close HY expo, although I've been thinking about moving the third closer to the map centre. However, beacuse of the general layout the thirds would be very close to one another (look at the overview image) with only rocks between. Did I get your suggestion right?
Edit: I think I could make the map 1/4 rotational instead. That would look so much better and I could have the right hand third remain mostly as it is while the left hand third is closer to the map centre.
Do you think the map centre plays well btw? The overall concept with three towers and the ring of high ground..
|
I do like the middle yes, it's esthetically pleasing and performs a tactical purpose..
|
To solve the natural problem you'd probably have to extend the lava a bit, kinda like this:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/BPd9k.jpg)
Obviously you'd have to make the part between those two regions a bit tighter.
|
@FlopTurnReaver Thanks for taking your time to draw a sweet pic I made a bigger change instead, since it was so much I wasn't content with.
I made a new version. It's like a remake and it has rotational symetry. I embraced PandaBlunt's idea to change the third into gold and move it closer to the centre (at least I think that's what he meant). I think 4 golds for a map is a bit much, but on a 4p rotational symetry map it makes sense to have 4 rather than 2, just as 4 towers rather than 2 makes more sense.
I'll update the thread about the details later. Here's an overview though:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/UsuNg.jpg)
XelNaga Towers: 4
Bases: 16 (4 gold)
Distances
Short main-to-main: 140.3
Cross main-to-main: 164
Short nat-to-nat: 101
Cross nat-to-nat: 126
The middle has two distinct features. The absolute centre is narrow and risky late game, but provides for short rush distances early game. The other feature is the small high grounds that overlook the main path. On the other side of the gap, there is the gold base with XNT that spots those high grounds.
|
Please provide a screenshot of the new middle, it was definitely a selling point previously.
|
|
|
New main, nat third and gold scenarios
Scenario 1
+ Show Spoiler +
In this story, the zerg has mass-expanded - both nat, third and a fourth is taken. Two creep tumors created a lane between main and nat and she destroyed the backdoor rocks to access the third with only one additional tumor. Zerg has also expanded at the gold, but this treck takes three creep tumors to create a creep lane to.
Players may choose to keep the rocks between nat and third and take a gold as third instead.
Scenario 2
+ Show Spoiler +
In this other scenario, probably cross-position 1v1 play, the zerg has left the nat backdoor rocks intact, expanding to the nearby golds instead, using a total of 3 creep tumors for the closer left-hand gold and a total of 4 to reach the right-hand gold.
Edit: Just realized the first scenario was invalid, so changed it some.
|
OP updated with both versions described. Now you can influence me on what I should throw away and keep from both versions The goal is to have one better version of the map in the end.
Both are published on EU as as CarZera (ver 2) and Core Delta (ver 1) if you want to try them out.
|
It looks like if the players spawn vertically or horizontally then one player's third is toward the opponent's while the opponent's is away. I had the same issue with Moon Sailor, which is why I changed it to mirrored symmetry. Plus, it looks like a Terran opponent could set up camp on the gold money high ground area and safely blast away. I drew some pictures to give a better idea of what I mean.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tv4Ec.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QNqKA.jpg)
In this last picture, the purple dotted lines are the paths that ground units would have to take in order to reach any units on the high ground.
Aside from those two points, the rest would be about how sweet this map looks. I like how you used different cliff styles, organic and man-made, to section off the mains from the rest of the map. From what I can see, the texture work looks nice and organized and the blue fog is pretty cool in contrast with the lava. All in all I would say you're sitting on a winner.
|
On April 10 2011 01:20 lovablemikey wrote:It looks like if the players spawn vertically or horizontally then one player's third is toward the opponent's while the opponent's is away. I had the same issue with Moon Sailor, which is why I changed it to mirrored symmetry. Plus, it looks like a Terran opponent could set up camp on the gold money high ground area and safely blast away. I drew some pictures to give a better idea of what I mean. + Show Spoiler +In this last picture, the purple dotted lines are the paths that ground units would have to take in order to reach any units on the high ground. Aside from those two points, the rest would be about how sweet this map looks. I like how you used different cliff styles, organic and man-made, to section off the mains from the rest of the map. From what I can see, the texture work looks nice and organized and the blue fog is pretty cool in contrast with the lava. All in all I would say you're sitting on a winner.
I generally don't mind rotational imbalance, but I think it might be nice to make the 3rds more neutral here.
|
@lovablemikey haha your pictures are lovable, especially the zerg in the last one :D The imbalance of rotational symetry has been on my mind like a pest since I made this latest version, so I'm aware of it, which is why I show of the first version for comparision.
I was hoping for more suggestions on how to fix this imbalance.
About the gold.. I'll either make it low ground or have the tower on a spot where it overlooks the gold, but not too close to it... I think ><
@monitor - the imbalance is worse on my map than most rotational symetry maps? Please give me some examples of when rotational imbalance is fine?
Proposed change
I think I'll just add another possible third pretty identical to the excisting third, but on the right side of the main. That means two backdoor ramps into the nat. I'll keep the golds, but move them closer to the map centre and make them half expos with 4 mineral and 1 gas, so I wont have crazily full 20 expos on the map, rather 16 + 4 half. What do you think?
I can't help but thinking NOT having the gold bases at all and still having the possible thirds so far from the map centre would be bad for the general flow of the map - no flow towards the centre.
Something like this?
(a quick sketch .. faster than changing the map I think)
|
Ooo, I like that idea. I say go with that.
I was going to suggest bringing the third's resources closer to the main, but that idea seems stupid now. Your's is much better.
|
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Sn13U.jpg)
Mar Zera
I thinking about moving natural down to the low groudn in front of the ramp, and moving the entire main platform to the location (and height) of the natural. Thoughts? The geysers around the middle are high yield vespene geysers and you can build CCs on two positions on thosehigh grounds. Also, currently the distance between nat and the possible thirds are 4 creep tumors... too much, or just nice?
|
Whoa, this is a thrilling map thread! I only saw it when there was discussion for the first version.
Meltage, great work, rework, and experimentation! I like the thirds now, and I don't think the creep spread distance is too far for thirds. By the time I get to a third base I have two or three queens, so its all way less of an issue after you've defended any early one-base pressure where creep is essential.
Unless your map is Jungle Basin, which it deliciously is not.
One more thing: I can't tell from the direct overhead shot: between the thirds and the center pods, are there a lot of double-high cliffs? If so, and since they since to be mostly for decoration, can you try to lower the part of a double-high cliff that would be on the far side from the camera, just to reduce area where units will be hidden?
|
@dimfish glad you like my work Good to hear that you think the nat to third distance is fine for a zerg. That's been my greatest concern. At first, I had two DSR-backdoors from nat to both thirds but thought that would be some many chokes into the nat.
There's cerntainly been some experimentation, such as the high yield vespenes around the centre, and the varying high grounds and ramps there. Is one HY vespene attractive enough to stear flow towards the centre?
Heres another update, and a more HQ shot of the map:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/sohkd.jpg)
EDIT: OP updated with images and info
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/KbLo2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/izg7X.png)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/oVNgN.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/N0W2c.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/dvcHl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Pli6o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/WIKgr.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/3d3aB.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/sniLn.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/ob0ho.jpg)
