• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:46
CEST 04:46
KST 11:46
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview9TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection5Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview5[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2
Community News
[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June2Weekly Cups (May 25-31): Clem doubles, 2v2 circuit heads toward finale0StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th151Weekly Cups (May 18-24): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League6
StarCraft 2
General
TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes? What kind of tool would you be interested in? Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) WardiTV Mondays Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed Mutation # 528 Infection Detected Welcome to the External Content forum
Brood War
General
FlaSh's ASL S21 Finals Review 25 Years Since Brood War Patch 1.08 [BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June BW animated web series: seeking contributors FlaShFTW vs A.Alm Grudge Match Event
Tourneys
[BSL22] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CEST [ASL21] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Megathread Summer Games Done Quick 2026! Nintendo Switch Thread The Perfect Game Path of Exile
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Trading/Investing Thread YouTube Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Esportsmanship: How to NOT B…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4185 users

Double Cliff Main, Single Cliff Natural \o/

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
FlopTurnReaver
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Switzerland1980 Posts
February 04 2011 00:08 GMT
#1
Ok seriously people. At first I though "oh well that's just a short phase because Shakuras Plateau is on of the few more or less balanced maps, it's just gonna be a couple of maps". But now I've been seeing this "phenomen" over and over and over again.

Let's say in the past 3-4 weeks it was a part of about 70% of Melee Maps. I mean come on.. is this really the only thing people can think of these days when creating a main and natural setup? I don't wanna say it's bad, it just gets reeeeally boring after a certain time. There are many different ways you can place main and natural. They can even be on the same cliff level.

Think that I am exaggerating? Don't take my word for it. Do you know the gif's that feature people with the same facial expression on every picture? Well I did kinda the same here. Had to make 2 of those to cover all the maps of the last 2 weeks:


+ Show Spoiler [Fast Version] +
[image loading] [image loading]


+ Show Spoiler [Slow Version] +
[image loading] [image loading]


So please stop using the same exact features on every single of your maps. I know that there are a lot of fantastic mappers on TL. Don't go with this stupid trend and at least vary it a bit.
Check out @MapOfTheMonth on Twitter and under http://bit.ly/motmorg
dezi
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1536 Posts
February 04 2011 00:16 GMT
#2
Argh, even slow seems to be to fast for me to see details beside the ramps ^^
TPW Member | My Maps @ TL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=171486 | Search 'dezi' at EU
SidianTheBard
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2475 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-04 00:36:36
February 04 2011 00:36 GMT
#3
It's just the best design to be honest.

How else would you do your Main into nat? .

Single Cliff into Ground which is what we see in 100% of the maps before shakuras.

Or....

You could put Main and Nat both on the ground level but then you'd have to have a small 3x3 choke at one corner of your base which would look bad as well as not give the defender any advantages and therefore make all-ins / timing attacks more viable.

You can't have the nat on a level higher then the main because that would favor the attacker rather than the defender.

To give the defender the advantage (which is what they need to have or else all-ins / timing attacks would be even more powerful then they are now) you have to either have the double into single cliff or a single cliff into ground level for the Main to Nat.
Creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Battle on the Boardwalk, Habitation Station, Honorgrounds, IPL Darkness Falls, King's Cove, Korhal Carnage Knockout & Moonlight Madness.
WniO
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2706 Posts
February 04 2011 00:48 GMT
#4
oh what dude my flower map has both nat and main on same level so there
dimfish
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States663 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-04 01:01:23
February 04 2011 00:51 GMT
#5
That's ridiculous Sid, there are infinity ways to make a main/natural setup with defender's advantage (edit: yeah, like Flower ^), and not every map should be equally defensive anyway. Infinity!

Applaud flop for calling out the emperor, but... yeah, its one cool setup and don't skip over a map with double cliff main/ single cliff nat that might have other new and interesting features, either. MotM february is shaping up to have some awesome entries
TedJustice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1324 Posts
February 04 2011 01:24 GMT
#6
In my humble and uneducated opinion, if your main isn't on the high ground with a ramp small enough for a single forcefield, it's probably going to lead to strange games and lots of cheese. Just look at scrap station in any protoss matchup.
SmashHammer
Profile Joined January 2011
United States148 Posts
February 04 2011 01:41 GMT
#7
Interesting observation. I think people just like giving the defender the advantage so there are longer games. Will try to come up with some different layouts though.
TPW Mapping - theplanetaryworkshop.com
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-04 01:58:36
February 04 2011 01:58 GMT
#8
--- Nuked ---
Leeoku
Profile Joined May 2010
1617 Posts
February 04 2011 02:10 GMT
#9
agreed. we need some more maps with abit more open entrances like BW
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
Amantes de StarCraft 2 #45
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 167
ProTech100
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 4300
Rain 2956
Artosis 631
Dewaltoss 4
Dota 2
monkeys_forever749
XaKoH 360
NeuroSwarm122
League of Legends
JimRising 735
Counter-Strike
taco 209
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King72
Other Games
summit1g14510
C9.Mang0693
CosmosSc2 19
minikerr7
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1075
BasetradeTV274
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP97
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush283
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
7h 14m
PiGosaur Cup
21h 14m
Replay Cast
1d 6h
Kung Fu Cup
1d 8h
Maestros of the Game
1d 12h
Classic vs Lambo
Clem vs Maru
Replay Cast
1d 21h
The PondCast
2 days
Maestros of the Game
2 days
Serral vs Rogue
herO vs SHIN
Replay Cast
2 days
Maestros of the Game
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
OSC
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 22
2026 GSL S2
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
Acropolis #4 - GSB
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Murky Cup 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Heroes Pulsing #3
Heroes Pulsing #2
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.