• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:40
CEST 01:40
KST 08:40
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!9[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier3Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1[$1250] International ShieldBattery League49Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.164Rollback Netcode in Brood War145
StarCraft 2
General
How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins Server Blocker SCII needs to put more weight on strategy and tact
Tourneys
ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier WORTEX Challenger Series — Open SC2 LAN in Budapes RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 548 Shining Bright The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror Mutation # 546 Catch the Train
Brood War
General
Do we even care about balance? SOOP Announces New Women's Monthly Tournament [Megathread] Daily Funny Videos BW General Discussion Rollback Netcode in Brood War
Tourneys
[ASL22] Grand Finals [$1250] International ShieldBattery League [Women's StarCraft] Tier 8 CK 2026-10-20 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Armies of Exigo - YesYes? Dawn of War IV Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread The Chess Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
How Much Genes Contribute to…
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9550 users

Double Cliff Main, Single Cliff Natural \o/

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
FlopTurnReaver
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Switzerland1980 Posts
February 04 2011 00:08 GMT
#1
Ok seriously people. At first I though "oh well that's just a short phase because Shakuras Plateau is on of the few more or less balanced maps, it's just gonna be a couple of maps". But now I've been seeing this "phenomen" over and over and over again.

Let's say in the past 3-4 weeks it was a part of about 70% of Melee Maps. I mean come on.. is this really the only thing people can think of these days when creating a main and natural setup? I don't wanna say it's bad, it just gets reeeeally boring after a certain time. There are many different ways you can place main and natural. They can even be on the same cliff level.

Think that I am exaggerating? Don't take my word for it. Do you know the gif's that feature people with the same facial expression on every picture? Well I did kinda the same here. Had to make 2 of those to cover all the maps of the last 2 weeks:


+ Show Spoiler [Fast Version] +
[image loading] [image loading]


+ Show Spoiler [Slow Version] +
[image loading] [image loading]


So please stop using the same exact features on every single of your maps. I know that there are a lot of fantastic mappers on TL. Don't go with this stupid trend and at least vary it a bit.
Check out @MapOfTheMonth on Twitter and under http://bit.ly/motmorg
dezi
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1536 Posts
February 04 2011 00:16 GMT
#2
Argh, even slow seems to be to fast for me to see details beside the ramps ^^
TPW Member | My Maps @ TL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=171486 | Search 'dezi' at EU
SidianTheBard
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2475 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-04 00:36:36
February 04 2011 00:36 GMT
#3
It's just the best design to be honest.

How else would you do your Main into nat? .

Single Cliff into Ground which is what we see in 100% of the maps before shakuras.

Or....

You could put Main and Nat both on the ground level but then you'd have to have a small 3x3 choke at one corner of your base which would look bad as well as not give the defender any advantages and therefore make all-ins / timing attacks more viable.

You can't have the nat on a level higher then the main because that would favor the attacker rather than the defender.

To give the defender the advantage (which is what they need to have or else all-ins / timing attacks would be even more powerful then they are now) you have to either have the double into single cliff or a single cliff into ground level for the Main to Nat.
Creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Battle on the Boardwalk, Habitation Station, Honorgrounds, IPL Darkness Falls, King's Cove, Korhal Carnage Knockout & Moonlight Madness.
WniO
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2706 Posts
February 04 2011 00:48 GMT
#4
oh what dude my flower map has both nat and main on same level so there
dimfish
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States663 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-04 01:01:23
February 04 2011 00:51 GMT
#5
That's ridiculous Sid, there are infinity ways to make a main/natural setup with defender's advantage (edit: yeah, like Flower ^), and not every map should be equally defensive anyway. Infinity!

Applaud flop for calling out the emperor, but... yeah, its one cool setup and don't skip over a map with double cliff main/ single cliff nat that might have other new and interesting features, either. MotM february is shaping up to have some awesome entries
TedJustice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1324 Posts
February 04 2011 01:24 GMT
#6
In my humble and uneducated opinion, if your main isn't on the high ground with a ramp small enough for a single forcefield, it's probably going to lead to strange games and lots of cheese. Just look at scrap station in any protoss matchup.
SmashHammer
Profile Joined January 2011
United States148 Posts
February 04 2011 01:41 GMT
#7
Interesting observation. I think people just like giving the defender the advantage so there are longer games. Will try to come up with some different layouts though.
TPW Mapping - theplanetaryworkshop.com
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-04 01:58:36
February 04 2011 01:58 GMT
#8
--- Nuked ---
Leeoku
Profile Joined May 2010
1617 Posts
February 04 2011 02:10 GMT
#9
agreed. we need some more maps with abit more open entrances like BW
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 50m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft298
SpeCial 92
JuggernautJason37
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 629
GuemChi 325
Mini 173
Dota 2
syndereN516
monkeys_forever371
League of Legends
Doublelift4932
Other Games
summit1g6004
FrodaN609
shahzam528
C9.Mang0313
Maynarde90
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick904
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 104
• musti20045 33
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 3
• Azhi_Dahaki2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Scarra576
Other Games
• imaqtpie965
• Shiphtur539
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
50m
The PondCast
10h 20m
Kung Fu Cup
11h 20m
IntoTheTV X SOOP
1d 11h
Reynor vs Zoun
Neeb vs Rogue
FEL
3 days
Patches Events
3 days
AI Arena Tournament
3 days
FEL
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
6 days
ByuN vs Lambo
MaxPax vs Bunny
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 22
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
IPSL Winter 2026-27
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Acropolis #5 - GSC
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.