|
While examining some old BW maps, one concept that immediately interested me was the reverse semi-island map. These maps have two assimilators that allow all units to pass through, until they are destroyed, after which almost no units can pass through: a few examples are  Troy and Battle Royal. It got me wondering if vespene geysers behaved similarly in SC2. I did a few simple tests, and it turns out they behave very differently. However, they still work in an odd way, with certain combinations allowing some units to pass through while others do not.
I couldn't find any other resource on this topic, so I wrote a simple guide as to what can pass through what. Everything here applies to extractors and assimilators as well.
First off, I found that when dealing with geysers, you can divide units into three size categories:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/df98v.jpg)
Note: Colossi are MEDIUM, archons are LARGE. I accidentally left them out of the picture.
Large units can never pass next to a vespene geyser or refinery if it is adjacent to another geyser, refinery, or cliffside. The notable unit here is siege tanks: although they appear to be smaller than immortals and queens, they actually are counted the same as thors and ultras.
Now, as for small and medium units. They behave mostly the same, except for one special case: diagonal cliffside + geyser, which I'll get to in a second. So, what exactly can small and medium units pass through?
Small/medium units CAN pass through two adjacent geysers, vertical or horizontal, OR a refinery and a geyser, stacked vertically (if the geyser is on the bottom):
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bhnbl.jpg)
Small/medium units can NOT pass through two adjacent refineries, vertical or horizontal, OR a refinery and a diagonal cliffside:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VC5Cm.jpg)
Small units CAN pass through a diagonal cliffside + a geyser, but medium units can NOT:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OqeA6.jpg)
Small/medium units CAN pass through a vertical refinery + geyser, IF the geyser is on the bottom. If the geyser is on top, units can NOT pass through.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/5Q9O8.jpg)
So now that we have this information, how can we use it? What sort of creative terrain can you make with adjacent refineries and geysers? Well, for one example, take an expansion like this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0cGnC.jpg)
It starts off as an island, blocked by two 500hp refineries with 1 armor. After destroying both refineries, you can fit workers, queens, and other small/medium units through. Now, you have a choice: you can take one or both geysers, turning the expansion back into an island, OR you can leave them unharvested, giving you a mineral-only expansion that can still be defended by marines/hydras/stalkers/etc. Of course, that's only one example.
Feel free to use this info without credit, I just felt like clearing up a somewhat nebulous issue in mapmaking. I think SC2's geyser behavior is much more interesting than BW's and could provide for some very unique maps.
Post corrections/feedback if needed!
|
you could achieve the same thing as in BW by changing the footprints of the refineries or vespene geysers.
|
On January 18 2011 17:46 MavercK wrote:
you could achieve the same thing as in BW by changing the footprints of the refineries or vespene geysers.
Wouldn't modifying footprints make it non-melee? This is more intended for standard melee maps, just explaining how they block in SC2 rather than trying to recreate BW.
|
not necessarily - it depends on the exact unit that you modify. not sure about refineries
|
Pretty interesting concept. Would require that to be common knowledge before it is used in any high level setting. It's definatly not something explored enough, but the game is still yound and I can't wait to see a map with this in to change up the game a little.
I'm assuming Colossus is a large unit when considering two gysers.
|
that does sound quite interesting, however it does seem like the geysers would be too vulnerable, and it would annoy me!
also troy and battle royal were two of my most hated maps in BW.
|
This is interesting, reminds me of walling of in SC1 where you really had to know your building placement quite a bit to make stuff zergling tight.
|
Interesting; thanks for taking the time to test out this idea. I could definitely see these ideas incorporated into future maps.
|
sorry off topic:
thanks, i'd like someone to discuss the same thing for minerals
+ Show Spoiler +
on topic:
 love "mapmaking" rants/posts/banwagon/stickied/balance ... mapmaking discussions threads like this one+ Show Spoiler +but would rather discuss more common "issue" of minerals someone should link the two recent "balanced" maps with gas issues... + Show Spoiler + Gas Chamber comes of course to mind (catchy still)... but there was another with a "gas only base" map...iwillreturnifnooneget'sit
|
Is the footprint the same for assimilators and extractors?
(One can assume so, but I don't think that is a good thing to do  )
Otherwise it is a neat idea, and it will certainly be interesting to try
|
On January 19 2011 01:42 NullCurrent wrote:Is the footprint the same for assimilators and extractors? (One can assume so, but I don't think that is a good thing to do )
As far as I can tell, they do. I copied over all the tests with assimilators and extractors and didn't notice anything different.
----
One more thing that I just noticed a few minutes ago, that's actually quite important: When a geyser and a refinery/assim/extractor/etc. are stacked vertically, the geyser must be on the bottom for units to pass through. If the refinery is on the bottom, it forms a solid wall.
+ Show Spoiler +
I'll edit this into the OP in a second.
|
Cool. I'll try to implement this in a future map.
|
On January 18 2011 18:01 iGrok wrote:
not necessarily - it depends on the exact unit that you modify. not sure about refineries
You can modify any unit in the game and keep the map melee. Large tournaments will not pick up a map knowing that the map has altered some core game mechanics like that (This was a subject of huge internal debate on my mapmaking team in regards to Obsidian Inferno)
|
Great post. Very interesting.
|
Calgary25977 Posts
Amazing post. I love when someone focuses on a smart part of SC/SC2 and summarizes everything you could want to know about it. It's great
|
I'd say this is somewhat imbalanced for toss, As who ever uses archons in actual combat, but collosus are mosly used as combat unit
Now, I don't want to start off a balance discussion, But im just pointing it out in a somewhat quesitonable form.
However, this seems to be pretty damn nice if implented into maps. It adds to security and aswell to danger.
Your gas is heavily under easy pressure without you being able to do little. But your mineral line is well protected in return.
Whatsoever, All in all, Nice read and a great post. Like pointed out already.
|
On January 19 2011 03:38 Chill wrote:Amazing post. I love when someone focuses on a smart part of SC/SC2 and summarizes everything you could want to know about it. It's great
Got to agree here. I love little tidbits of info like this quite a bit .
Sort of reminds me of the Troy Gates from BW.
|
That is... a really interesting thing to consider. I guess I never really thought about it. I assumed that geysers would have the same collision as refineries. I take it all these rules apply to Assimilators and Extractors, as well?
Also, that expansion idea would be even more awesome (for any mappers looking at this thread) if..
a) the cliffs were thinner, so no tanks on it
b) line of sight blockers in front of the gas geysers? If possible, to the point where you are forced to send a small unit to investigate.
|
Wow this is a great post. I can foresee some interesting maps in the future utilizing this! Thanks ^^
|
On January 19 2011 04:38 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 03:38 Chill wrote:Amazing post. I love when someone focuses on a smart part of SC/SC2 and summarizes everything you could want to know about it. It's great Got to agree here. I love little tidbits of info like this quite a bit . Sort of reminds me of the Troy Gates from BW.
Sounded exactly like troy and battle royal. Haha, didn't know the same thing would pop up in SC2.
Gosh, he even addressed both those maps in the OP. Who reads the opening paragraph when there isn't a banner anyways?^^
|
This is great stuff. I'd be interested in seeing if HY geysers had any affect on it. I know in beta they had weird pathing issues but now i'm wondering if they can be exploited.
|
I love when I see someone curious about something small in the game, and, instead of just posting an "open for discussion on TL", he or she goes out and learns, quite literally, everything there is to know about the topic.
Kudos to you.
My sentence is not a run-on.
|
|
|
A few more facts:
1. Corner gap between refineries.
In a block of buildings that looks like
RB
RB
where R = refinery, B = other building, there is a gap right in the middle where the 4 corners meet (it does not work when two B positions are occupied by a single building). A worker that blocks itself in here will not teleport out like they usually do. When this worker mines gas at the refinery, it pops out at the same spot (even if the spot is now occupied - see below) and remains stuck.
2. Dropping things between geysers.
You can never drop a unit between two geysers, even if it can walk there. However, you can drop a small unit into the gap described above, as long as the spot is not already occupied. You cannot warp in a unit there. I haven't tested with infested terrans or viking landings.
3. Construction of refineries.
You can never block the construction of a refinery by standing units at locations that would be inaccessible if the refinery were built. The refinery builds anyway, and the units remain there. They can walk in either direction as if it was an unbuilt geyser, but once they reach the corner of the refinery, they can't move back.
I tested this on the map Crossfire, which has two adjacent geysers at the natural.
|
so can we see the interesting Protoss gas of Tory an Battle to Royal in StarCraft2?
|
On November 14 2017 14:57 WenHe wrote:
so can we see the interesting Protoss gas of Tory an Battle to Royal in StarCraft2?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/CalDeum
as far as i know, this old GSL map is the only pro map to ever take advantage of the geyser collision boxes, featuring a neutral assimilator which can be destroyed to open a narrow gap into the nat.
highly doubt anything like this will make it onto ladder unfortunately, it'll be deemed "too complex/unintuitive for noobs" or something like that
|
Bit late to the party, but iirc they changed the footprint of gas extraction structures, so Caldeum and this thread might not work very well anymore.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
