for the idea of an overlay and bringing the idea even farther into comparing .gif files. And for being the Official Nitpicker. Btw sry for not getting you to help playtest it We still can if you want
I in no way/shape/form/idea intend to "steal thunder" from Koagel who also created his own version. After testing, I feel the size of his version (156x156) might be a little closer to optimal than mine (180x180). + Show Spoiler +
Btw I think the "optimal size" is very close to 165x165. Unfortunately I am not redoing this version as I think it's actually just fine and I spent more time than I should have on it anyway Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays lulul
Ignore those weird places in the river where the analyzer thinks it's pathable... it's not. I am reporting it to dimfish soon.
Walling (click on picture for closeup; its hard to see) + Show Spoiler +
Siege Tank Range (click on picture for closeup; its hard to see) + Show Spoiler +
Pylon Range (click on picture for closeup; its hard to see) + Show Spoiler +
Other Small Things That Make it Feel Like the Original:
Initially black (not just greyed out) fog of war
Minerals in main pushed up to wall (starting locations not precisely in line with original)
50000 Resources for each minerals/gas field
I made it so that each geyser returns 8 before they're depleted. I personally think that 2 gas geysers in SC2 is roughly equivalent to 1 gas geyser in SC1. Putting 4 gas geysers per base looked really stupid >.< (And requires extra food to mine them).
Gas geysers will still return 2 gas when they run out
There are 4 levels of terrain. 0(dead space), 1(lowest pathable level), 2(medium pathable level), 3(highest pathable level). 0-1 transition cliffs are very tall, much taller than it looks like in the original. So I used a 1-2 cliff transition for the rivers, which looks much closer to BW style. (Level 2 is the pathable terrain, there is no level 0 in this map).
Top left (11:30) position's cliff above mineral line in main can have a siege tank dropped on it (just like original; I had to manipulate pathing fairly carefully to make this happen).
Bottom left (7:30) position can be proxy pylon blocked with a cannon behind mineral line (just like original).
Lighting had to be manipulated carefully in conjunction with a custom texture set to make it look as closely as possible to the original. PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS MAP IS INTENDED TO BE VIEWED WITH TEXTURE SETTING ON "LOW". Custom Texture List:
Agria Dirt
Aiur Dirt
Typhon Dirt
Port Zion Grass
Typhon Grass
Xil Grass
Aiur Small Bricks
Final Comments: There is a good chance that 180x180 might be a little too big. However, I would like to draw your attention to the last 4 images in the picture section.
The openness level really seems perfect to me! Like dead perfect.
The siege tank range also seems perfect to me! o.O
The walling potential seems pretty damn good to me! O.o WniO said that the walling size was perfect, but he also said that when he spawned in the area with the smallest walls overall (by a small margin).
The pylon range is very intriguing IMO. The smaller you make the map, the easier it will be for people to warp in entire armies directly into your base. With this size it's possible, but it's much harder and it takes some extra time. This part right here makes me feel that 180x180 might actually be perfect.
These 4 things really make it seem like 180x180 is actually just fine to me. Perhaps the biggest drawback is that the rush distances are roughly 25% longer than the original. Maybe something like 165x165 would be better overall. But really, that's the key concept here: overall. As long as we're using the sc2 format with sc2 units and sc2 mechanics, no conversions of this map will ever play quite like the original. There are several sliding scales that are independant of each other but dependant on the map size; the 4-5 I mentioned here are the most important ones. Again: I don't know; maybe 180x180 is a little too big; maybe ~165x165 would be a little better. It's all pretty ambiguous really, but I hope you like this version, because I don't plan on redoing it
MerryChristmas / Happy Holidays
This map is published with open source on the NA server (now also on EU). Btw it's a Custom Map (NOT A MELEE MAP), and I enabled all types of play (2v2v2v2, ffa, 3v3, etc etc etc) It's called "True Big Game Hunters"
If you want to play this game with me I'm totally down! PM me on teamliquid, and/or add me in-game Barrin.567
If you play a game on this map please upload a link to it in this thread
Thanks, but my version isn't published yet. I'm currently focusing on other maps and may or may not finish mine.
Your layout is much closer to the original, almost perfect if it was not for the size. The texturing is so oldschool it makes me want to reduce the resolution to 640x480. xD
On December 20 2010 11:56 Koagel wrote: Your layout is much closer to the original, almost perfect if it was not for the size. The texturing is so oldschool it makes me want to reduce the resolution to 640x480. xD
ill share that sentiment, excellent work barrin depleted gas returning 2? im curious if the geysers return more per trip if your changing it to even include things like that. this remake has the same number of geysers as the original, but sc2 geysers return 4 because theres 2/base where bw returned 8 off 1
On December 20 2010 11:42 Chairman Ray wrote: Good job!
Can you maybe fix some of the imbalances in that map? A major one is how 11 and 12 share a natural but no other spawn does.
I thought the entire point of playing BGH was the imbalances
Spawning at 11 with an opponent at 12 was always awesome because you knew it would usually be finished with the most effective rush you could muster. BGH would be pretty mundane if it wasn't so imbalanced; when you play on it you always get to think about what you are going to do based on the spawn positions. No two games are ever the same because all the teams/players keep moving around.
hmm.. Well it was there you just had to use certain search terms. I fixed it. It is now called "True Big Game Hunters" (sorry for the rather pretentious name I couldn't really think of anything else that would work). It now shows up on that huge list when you just type in "Big Game Hunters"
depleted gas returning 2? im curious if the geysers return more per trip if your changing it to even include things like that. this remake has the same number of geysers as the original, but sc2 geysers return 4 because theres 2/base where bw returned 8 off 1
Oh yeah I made it so that each geyser returns 8 before they're depleted. I personally think that 2 gas geysers in SC2 is roughly equivalent to 1 gas geyser in SC1. Putting 4 gas geysers per base looked really stupid >.< (And requires extra food to mine them). I forgot to put this in the OP I will in a second.
Gas is more necessary in SC2 than BW. Perhaps make it return 10, so double what a 2gas expo in SC2 would give.
I have heard that this is true. However, in my non-extensive tests I had copious amounts of gas in the early/mid game (lots of sentries as protoss) on just 2 geysers... However it did seem to take a long ass time to get max food of mutalisks off of 3 geysers*... Hmmm...
Please only vote in this poll after playing this map at least once
Poll: Should the number of gas returned per trip be increased?
No (24)
59%
Yes (17)
41%
41 total votes
Your vote: Should the number of gas returned per trip be increased?
The idea of a balanced BGH is humorous. Still GJ on the map. Textures remind me of W3 and it is very faithful to the original. Can't say I'll be playing on it though.
most sc2 maps are 128x128 and they are considered "small" but 128x128 is good enough for Benzene/Fighting Spirit but for sc2, that would probably be much bigger than 128x128
I'm actually super excited. Where is my phantom bgh port! Where is my phantom bgh with SC1 units port! :D!!!!!!!!!
>>>>.<<<< ^_^_^_^_^_^
[epeen] You know it's funny because in my day for SC1/BW mapmaking ~7-10 years ago I knew every single trigger by heart. I barely touched on melee maps (Though I made a couple I think.. only 1 that was a serious attempt at balance). There was literally nothing you could do with any editor that I couldn't also do, and if there was then I had pretty much every connection to find out how. I was even in on some beta testing of private release editors/programs and I could do things that almost nobody else could. [/epeen] But I haven't even touched the trigger editor in sc2 yet (Though that is a long-term goal)! lol. If someone else wants to turn this into a phantom BGH then please do, just let me know ^_^. Also a long-term goal of mine is to make a mod with all BW units that act as closely as possible to the original, using the mpq data files to make everythingproportional.
everything about this post and your work is good good good! (omg the lightning/look is SO CLOSE! well it's fine the way it is, sc2 should look different from sc1)
Wow that is really well done. I'm not sure anyone could do it any better. Seems like warp ins might complicate the map, but hey BGH was always about the imbalances.
for the idea of an overlay and bringing the idea even farther into comparing .gif files. And for being the Official Nitpicker. Btw sry for not getting you to help playtest it We still can if you want
You are quite welcome for all of the help! I will try this out ASAP and let you know what I think. Also, I'll add you on bnet. Go ahead and add me Tex.263
This looks sick indeed, I wish i had starcraft I so i could see where the map is about, As the OP is quite lacking. From what i read its a 2v2v2v2 map with infinite resources.
Oh and also - What are the zerg imbalances for this map, Siege tanks and pylons sounds great. But is zerg being left in the dark?
think it looks great, you even got the cliffs replicated just right. call me old fashioned, but i think it's still critical to have wallins that can be done with only a depot and a barracks and 4 gasses in each main!
Oh my bad dude lol I read it and I had intended to respond to it... I forgot though and I forgot what I was waiting for >.< I just did
This looks sick indeed, I wish i had starcraft I so i could see where the map is about, As the OP is quite lacking. From what i read its a 2v2v2v2 map with infinite resources.
It's just a remake of the most well known SC1/BW map ever made o.O There are dozens of other remakes, but almost all of them are 128x128 which is just wayyyyy too small. BTW You can play it however you like: 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, 2v2v2v2, FFA, and everything in between.
Oh and also - What are the zerg imbalances for this map, Siege tanks and pylons sounds great. But is zerg being left in the dark?
*shrug* I didn't really think about that to be honest. The pylon thing is just a result of the way the map is made. Perhaps zerg's benefit is that they aren't hurt as much as every other sc2 version of this map The siege tank thing was there in SC1 too, and the pylon thing is just a result of the way the map is designed (I didn't really design it o.O). Overlords in the right areas should help you deal with the pylons though
Very nice map! Due to the custom map system I dont think Ill be playing this unless its at some lan event or something. Dont think waiting in an empty lobby is plausible. I dont get why blizzard doesnt keep the create but change the join...
i think it's still critical to have wallins that can be done with only a depot and a barracks
yeah It's just a result of scaling up the map so much really. The only way I could do that would be to make it not look quite like the original... which isn't a bad option I guess o.O Maybe bigger ramps is another thing that helps zerg (see BuuGhost's reply and my reply to him)
and 4 gasses in each main!
4 gasses in each main just looked dumb, so I just doubled the amount of resources they return instead. 4 gasses would also have an effect on maxed armies
Due to the custom map system I dont think Ill be playing this unless its at some lan event or something. Dont think waiting in an empty lobby is plausible. I dont get why blizzard doesnt keep the create but change the join...
I turn into a utterly rabid and very ugly pandabear whenever I express my frustration with the current system. *suppress*
This seems awesome, there was a lot of effort put into making a good BGH here and I cannot wait to give it a shot. The old 2v2v2v2 games were the most fun playing StarCraft that we just about ever had. Thanks!
I absolutely love BGH (imbalances included!) and so many props for bringing it to SC2. My only gripe with it, however, is that the smiley face isn't as pronounced :D
I absolutely love BGH (imbalances included!) and so many props for bringing it to SC2. My only gripe with it, however, is that the smiley face isn't as pronounced :D
LOL yeah I was wondering if anyone would mention that. Unfortunately it's pretty difficult to make the blue minerals contrast well with the grass. If you notice, the minerals in sc1 are actually much brighter. I could do the same thing here, it's just that it would probably make the not only the minerals glow too much, but also protoss units (and maybe even zerg units). But I will admit I didn't really try to do it... its just what I learned from doing lighting in my last map. Maybe it's possible without drawbacks.
On December 20 2010 11:16 Barrin wrote: These 4 things really make it seem like 180x180 is actually just fine to me. Perhaps the biggest drawback is that the rush distances are roughly 25% longer than the original. Maybe something like 165x165 would be better overall. But really, that's the key concept here: overall. As long as we're using the sc2 format with sc2 units and sc2 mechanics, no conversions of this map will ever play quite like the original. There are several sliding scales that are independant of each other but dependant on the map size; the 4-5 I mentioned here are the most important ones. Again: I don't know; maybe 180x180 is a little too big; maybe ~165x165 would be a little better.
yeah, in redoing Wuthering Heights I ended up at 152x152. Like you say, there are different scales. I could have gone bigger based on tank range, but it started to make distances too large. Makes BW ports difficult. You probably hit on a good size for BGH. I mean who wants to rush on that map anyway
On December 20 2010 15:09 nalgene wrote: most sc2 maps are 128x128 and they are considered "small" but 128x128 is good enough for Benzene/Fighting Spirit but for sc2, that would probably be much bigger than 128x128
That's a misconception. The standart SC2 maps are in fact bigger than it says on Liquipedia (tried to change it once, didn't work for some reason). Maps like Metalopolis or LT are actually around 140x140 and still don't feel really big.
Btw. trying to upload on EU since I just can't find a good version on there.
I've been waiting for a proper BGH port. High fives all around!
Yeah!!!
Wow I was being stupid lol... People from EU can't access it through the editor (but you can on NA)... facepalm. I sent a download link to FlopTurnReaver he said he will put it on EU
1) Geysers are set to 2500. I believe the original BGH had geysers at 25000 or was it 50k?. I played for like 15 minutes and already one of my geysers were exhausted. EDIT: only top left and top middle have 2500 gas on geysers; the other locations are correct with 50K gas.
2) Tank drops at cliffs: I was only able to tank drop top left 11:00 base's cliff, 9:00's behind the minerals and 6:00's behind the minerals. Are you sure other bases' cliff's are tank droppable. I couldn't get any of the other bases.
I shoulda triple checked the geysers lol they were high yield instead of just regular. I just fixed em and republished it
I will make it so the tanks can be placed in those areas that you showed That'll be up in a few hours. I'll send the next version to FlopTurnReaver hopefully he'll publish it on EU again ^_^_^
Hey barrin, I was fooling around on this today and I noticed that at the 12 'oclock there's a mineral patch that my scv's took a long route to get to. Apparently some of the nearby patches are too close together?
Units feel the right size on this map, but buildings are way too tiny. The mains feel oddly spacious... Also, I can't wall in and abuse the AI
Lastly, there are treacherous patches where mules have a chance of getting called down into a trapped position (at the 9 and 11 o'clock mains). You shouldn't fix this imo.
I have to tell you, I tried this today and although there are a few very very minor differences, I love it! this is the best BGH for SC2 thus far. Thanks for all of the effort!
Lastly, there are treacherous patches where mules have a chance of getting called down into a trapped position (at the 9 and 11 o'clock mains). You shouldn't fix this imo.
Haha the last part was unexpected, but I guess I can agree with that.
Yeah the chokes look a lot bigger
But I guess that, if zerg does need their "imbalance" to make up for the pylons, it would be that T and P have to build more to wall off their chokes and that the chokes are bigger (and units clump easier in sc2) so that Zerg can fight in tighter spaces easier .
All tank drop locations are pretty much the same as in BW.
7:30 position might fit a few more siege tanks but I think the idea there was that you could drop more than was necessary anyway >.<
the 9:00 position only fits 1 siege tank behind the minerals... I can't really think of an elegant solution to this sry
thanks again pinktemplar, if anyone else sees any quirks like that that were in BW but not in this version please let me know and I will see what I can do to make it more like original
Hey barrin, I was fooling around on this today and I noticed that at the 12 'oclock there's a mineral patch that my scv's took a long route to get to. Apparently some of the nearby patches are too close together?
fixed
Units feel the right size on this map, but buildings are way too tiny. The mains feel oddly spacious... Also, I can't wall in and abuse the AI
Yeah sry I can't do much about that I'm not sure what you mean by 'abuse the AI' btw I have a few hunches but I donno for sure :O
Lastly, there are treacherous patches where mules have a chance of getting called down into a trapped position (at the 9 and 11 o'clock mains). You shouldn't fix this imo.
semi-intentional and agreed
I found something else that makes me sad... The borders of the map aren't grayed out like in pretty much every other map... I think it might have to do with the minimap black fog of war. I'll do some testing on it and see what I can do with it but:
Poll: Is the lack of darkened border indication bad?
Yes; try to fix it please (7)
70%
Borders are fine. (3)
30%
10 total votes
Your vote: Is the lack of darkened border indication bad?
(Vote): Yes; try to fix it please (Vote): Borders are fine.
Oh yeah I also figured out how to get all of the resources to 50,000 without making it a custom map (as opposed to a melee map)... Just like sc1 editor! Lol I was dumb to assume it was anything else. I could make it a melee map instead of a custom map... BUT i would have to double the number of gas geysers (keep in mind that doubling gas geysers doubles the number of workers you need to mine them which takes away from your capped army). Anyways I think having it a melee map instead of a custom map is pretty dumb anyway + Show Spoiler +
(and not because changing all the resources to 50,000 would be a lot of work)
(facepalm@custom map join system)
Poll: Turn into Melee (from Custom) and double gas geysers?
No (14)
64%
Yes (8)
36%
22 total votes
Your vote: Turn into Melee (from Custom) and double gas geysers?
I cant really vote Because i havent played it, But there is really little difference between a melee and custom map, The main thing being the loading screen. so i voted No, Also 4gas geysers sound really bad. Prehaps if you could input a auto refinery for all races. But i think its better the way it is (2gas with 8 being brought back)
yeah, my 'abuse the AI' comment was refering to how in BW the AI would never attack your wall, meaning melee units (lings and zealots especially) would just dance around outside your wall. You could successfully turtle against 7 AI behind a wall, two bunkers, and 10-12 tanks.
Unit sizes feeling correct on this map is a HUGE plus, but I really miss my wall-ins... Q_Q. I guess I'll have to try some PF walls or something.
Fantastic map! I'm really excited to give it a try.
As for melee vs custom, I would 100% say you should make it a "Melee" map. Because of the ridiculous popularity system, it would be unrealistic for it to make it to the front page of the Custom games list (which is absolutely huge). There are only a few team maps in the Melee list, and if you look at the # of games played on the maps in the first page of the melee list, you'll see the numbers are significantly lower than the first page of the Custom games list. I think BGH would have a much easier time reaching the front page and taking off if it were in the Melee games list.
I think that, as in the other BW conversions, there should always be twice as much vespine gas. So either 4/2 geysers or change back to rich geysers. Especially the expansions with only one geyser feel weird :s
Dunno about the darkened boarder but what I noticed is that on the top there's not a lot of "empty" space. You could expand the map 1 portion.
yeah, my 'abuse the AI' comment was refering to how in BW the AI would never attack your wall, meaning melee units (lings and zealots especially) would just dance around outside your wall. You could successfully turtle against 7 AI behind a wall, two bunkers, and 10-12 tanks.
oh ok thats what i thought u might have meant ^_^
You Sir, are my best friend.
can never have too few of those! ^_^_^
Fantastic map! I'm really excited to give it a try.
As for melee vs custom, I would 100% say you should make it a "Melee" map. Because of the ridiculous popularity system, it would be unrealistic for it to make it to the front page of the Custom games list (which is absolutely huge). There are only a few team maps in the Melee list, and if you look at the # of games played on the maps in the first page of the melee list, you'll see the numbers are significantly lower than the first page of the Custom games list. I think BGH would have a much easier time reaching the front page and taking off if it were in the Melee games list.
Either way, great job!
excellent point. done.
v1.3
Now a melee map (not custom).
All geysers are now simply high yield geysers (returning 8 each still)
All minerals and geysers still have 50000 (geysers no long return 2 on depletion >.<)
Fog of war now grey instead of black (necessary to make it melee map o.O)
Deleted most of the area off of map limits (now 180x180 playable, 184x184 total)
On December 23 2010 08:55 cowsinspace wrote: I have went through the entire list under 'melee' and still can't find it...any reason why?
I was having the same problem (on the NA server)., but here's what I did: Instead of going to "Find a Custom Match", go to "Create a Custom" instead. There you can use the search bar in the top right. Put in "True Big Game Hunters" and it'll be near the bottom of the list (Alphabetical order).
hey flop turn reaver i'll add you the next time i'm on battle.net, i've had exactly zero success getting a game of this going so far but we'll be one eventually :D anyone else wanting to have a go at some point add me rolfe.745 on EU and hopefully we'll get enough
also the map looks awesome, can't wait
[edit] just played one and the map is awesome. thanks :D
about chat channels leading to more play on iccup motm or sc2bw maps
iGrok's advice is the perfect: open said bratchannels and go do something else... then chat/play if anyone comes in, or set a date to do so...
channels must be "hosted", if enough people do it all day long, the pop will reward "naturally" these maps + Show Spoiler +
please people, do not "boost", as it'll only encourage people with lousy bugged maps to do the same...and you'll possibly get "noticed" by blizz for doing so (at some point they will act on these practices + Show Spoiler +
(this is more likely than them returning us lan)
)
this way is so much better than adding friends (from map threads or other), because many players doing it will work (mapmakers have less time since they map/play/host)...
fight the power (blizz pop): host motm and scbw in your own realm/region!
i have, before i type this, already opened up motm and sc2bw bratchnnls, littlenemo on eu
qbout the map: it's way cool, i'd much rather have it changed introducing no imba start positiions, but that's me... or else make it that players with "highest skill" get the under powered positions..lol
On March 25 2011 07:55 deadmau wrote: Sorry for ressurecting this thread, but I can't seem to find this map anywhere online, does anyone know where it is hosted for download?
Here's an easy way to find it:
-Create a custom game in SC2. -In the search bar for the map, type "True Big Game Hunters". -Scroll down the list quite a bit until you find the map and download it.
Hey, impressive layout work. There is a jungle of bad Hunters clone out there. I'd like to see this layout on a regular The Hunters map. If you are done with the layout, please make a version for higher settings, with doodads, nice textures and such?
On March 25 2011 07:55 deadmau wrote: Sorry for ressurecting this thread, but I can't seem to find this map anywhere online, does anyone know where it is hosted for download?
noone should ever be sorry for bumping this thread :D which server are you on? i'm pretty sure its on both NA and i've played it on EU. anyone else here fancy a game sometime? we should have a chat channel specifically for this game
On March 25 2011 07:55 deadmau wrote: Sorry for ressurecting this thread, but I can't seem to find this map anywhere online, does anyone know where it is hosted for download?
Here's an easy way to find it:
-Create a custom game in SC2. -In the search bar for the map, type "True Big Game Hunters". -Scroll down the list quite a bit until you find the map and download it.
It's there, just keep your eyes open.
sorry for the retarded question, I only play 1v1 2v2 ladder, never even attempted custom games or campaign before lol. These simple mechanics that should be known are surprisingly not known by everyone. Don't got time for those "fun" custom games that i used to play in BW that's why haha.
On March 26 2011 01:40 rolfe wrote: noone should ever be sorry for bumping this thread :D which server are you on? i'm pretty sure its on both NA and i've played it on EU. anyone else here fancy a game sometime? we should have a chat channel specifically for this game
I play on NA, yea imma try looking for it now, I only played custom in BW so I didn't know how it worked in sc2
I know this is an old thread (seriously, anything over two months is considered old?), but this is a fantastic map, and I'm wondering if you could make a version where you start out with more workers. It'd be nice for Terran and Protoss to get a wall off faster, because the chokes are huge*, and this is minor but more workers + more minerals = more split micro woot! lol. And it would get the action started faster
*I should mention I'm happy about the size of the map, all the other BGH I've tried feel too small