EPTMapping Skill Level - Page 2
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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G_Wen
Canada525 Posts
When looking at the maps you've made in the past there are two ways you can respond: 1. "I can't believe I made that." 2. "I can't believe I made that." Nunber 1 is a "Wow that map I made was really great for my skill level back then." while Number 2 is a "what was i thinking?" kind of thing. The Map Makers on TL are maturing to the point of actually being critical of themselves. This is good news, although it also indicates that the community is far from being very highly skilled. Anyone who has ever pursued an artistic skill knows the learning curve is far from linear (much like actually playing Starcraft). In some rare cases you can see map makers get worse over time. But overall the trend is always up. I think the next step for improvement requires the separation of the visuals from the equation when determining if a map is fun to play on or not. Too many people right now are judging maps solely on how good they look. While the final step would be to include replays with your post. Tournaments such as the IMS and MotM competition that draw attention to the maps and allow for some high level feedback from players also help immensely. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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G_Wen
Canada525 Posts
On December 11 2010 05:22 Barrin wrote: That's why I always leave a design for a day until I begin decorating, it lets me come back to it and see it in a fresh sort of way. Most of the times I end up just abandoning it because it doesn't really seem to work. I'd say for every map I release (1 so far) I make about 5 different designs. It's just that one layout that you just happen to stumble upon that really stands out as exceptional. By the time I finish a map I'm really burnt out and sometimes after I finish a map it just doesn't play very well and gets put on the shelf. But every time a map fails it's just another lesson learned.I spend so much time making my maps look cool that by the time I'm finished with them I'm not satisfied with the layout anymore. Every single time. And each time I finish I am really only interested in incorporating what I learned in my next maps. I felt like this even when I was making UMS maps in BW. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
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LoLIsh
United States81 Posts
On December 11 2010 05:22 Barrin wrote: I spend so much time making my maps look cool that by the time I'm finished with them I'm not satisfied with the layout anymore. Every single time. And each time I finish I am really only interested in incorporating what I learned in my next maps. I felt like this even when I was making UMS maps in BW. I have yet to run into this problem with this game, but this used to happen to me back when I did level design for Unreal Tournament 2004 and Unreal Tournament 3. With Starcraft 2 however, I build the layout first. Basic of the basic. Just make sure different textures are used for different levels of Terrain. Then I playtest the shit out of it with friends, family, and bots. Watch the replays, learn from them and how the people/bots played. Also take advice from people in the community, those who sound like they know what their talking about. Make the appropriate changes, then decorate. That's what I've done on my two maps. My first one, I didn't get feedback from a good community (talking about the SC2 official forums and Mapster. No good feedback from those places for anything but NEXUS WARS LAWLS111!!!!111!), and now that I go back and replay it, I notice tons of mistakes. My second (and latest) map was tested from people here on TL.net, and they really helped me a ton. Just got to sort the bad suggestions from the good suggestions. | ||
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lurkerbelow
United States13 Posts
2nd way, make the terrain objects, import them into a mod, then noobs/novice mapmakers will be able to make decent maps with cookie cutter cliffs/and then add the custom middle or whatever this idea came up to me because i make my cliffs really small so the computer ai usually only has enough room to build 1 rack/gate even though there is plenty of space they don't like to cramp up and use rack/gate for walls, other smart compact tactics (they are not very smart) so also new AI would be in order.. also i started out putting my gas in the middle so object groups(?) like 8 minerals and 2 gas which you could rotate would be a good addition for people that are not too savy on "league regulations" and optimal format of the mineral/gas nodes now all you have to do is texture and add/seed doodads distribute in MOD, wait for marketplace i guess (depending on how this works out) | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
I'm just relying on my BW experience lol | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On December 10 2010 07:44 neobowman wrote: people in the mapping forum dont' know **** about what they're talking about. thesis I think this is all that needed to be said, and if you are serious about mapping it should be self evident. If you are not serious about mapping, it doesn't really matter what responses you get. discursion Perhaps other private parties have reached another level, but this is how I see the state of understanding: everyone looks at what seems to work and what doesn't on the ladder maps. What do people complain about? Then people make maps that attempt progress. For a long time there was a big movement for larger maps. Now some people are trying to cram things. This is just one thing that might matter in a map. A lot of players who are into mapping discuss the results. The only maps that really see anything approaching competitive play are the iccup maps. The iccup maps generally take the approach of "don't include anything too experimental", so the pros playing them wouldn't really have much to say either way, since they are solid standard layouts. Ultimately, no one has a deep conceptual level understanding. It's all based on a rough empirical feeling. Being a competent player helps you evaluate, and BW experience translates in a lot of ways. But there is no one with unimpeachable sensibilities, simply because something crazy may turn out to be reasonable in the future. Unlikely, but right now we can't know which. I'm unsatisfied with how I expressed the above, but it serves. That is my view of the state of the art. About this thread. The OP admits to ranting. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem constructive to me. If you are trying to warn newbies to heed feedback with caution, I think you could go about it more directly, as in a guide about how to post a map and what to expect of it. If you wanted to debate map theory, you could do that outright. Stupid comments won't ever have a deleterious effect on high level mapping. They will be ignored by competent people, except perhaps to be used as a teaching point for those of us disposed to pedantry or abundant patience. In any case, whenever the competitive starcraft world begins incorporating 3rd party creations, the cream will be used, and chaff will be invisible. In the pursuit of raising the level of discussion, I think the most productive thing is posting good sense, especially where it's needed most. The most productive thing for improving the community's power to make good maps would be a testing circle of high level players. A thread about this came up and was forgotten. It would take a lot of dedication. I'd love to be a part of something like that. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
Main point is for the people who don't know **** about what they're talking about ot stop giving critcism on threads. Or at least to help the newbies figure out who to listen to and who not to listen to. But I added on a lot of my personal feelings in the post. | ||
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baskerville
541 Posts
On December 10 2010 09:51 G_Wen wrote: So uh.... can you write a guide for this? now... that's funny | ||
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Koagel
Austria167 Posts
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baskerville
541 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Neobowman (op): + Show Spoiler + thank you for stirrin' it up Quick recap/highlights --------------------------- Neobowman: forum dont' know **** about what they're talking about many people come into a map thread and give comments that have no basis you do get a lot of good advice too balance isn't completely defined yet respect the higher level mappers opinions. They're usually right. It's not because we're internet jerks who like to bash on people, even if it seems like that sometimes Best of luck --------------------------- Vanished131 will stay out of the rest of this --------------------------- ProdiG love this post --------------------------- WniO people need to actually play the maps out themselves and then comment --------------------------- G_Wen can you write a guide for this?+ Show Spoiler + “Like how you can explain how to play starcraft to your girlfriend, but it takes a ton of time for her to actually understand how to play even at a decent level.” --------------------------- Antares777 'how to submit high quality accurate feedback' --------------------------- Barrin goddamn #$*%ing shitload of concepts involved in this game and the maps themselves, and almost all of them interact in some way with every single other concept I just sort-of roll with it for the most part if you're not it's just because you're setting the bar too low and you're probably not actually sure what you're after next two expansions are just going to compound all of this --------------------------- TedJustice You really can't tell just by looking at a map. You have to play, and you have to play a lot --------------------------- BoomStevo "How would I play this map?" I don't think everyone plays or thinks the same way and having other people explain the way they would play the map is helpful. --------------------------- LunarC I think that the biggest problem is that I find it hard pressed to get much feedback we could all benefit from creating a group of people that are willing to playtest maps --------------------------- LoLIsh See what others can do with the thought. --------------------------- WniO i will test out anyones map pretty much whenever im online --------------------------- Barrin I think the average knowledge of this forum has gone up drastically in the past few months --------------------------- G_Wen "I can't believe I made that." --------------------------- EatThePath It's all based on a rough empirical feeling something crazy may turn out to be reasonable in the future the cream will be used, testing circle of high level players --------------------------- Barrin map testing thread i thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread, it spawned many another thread, check regularly + Show Spoiler + i'm still on the fence as to my adding any more to the discussion | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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EffectS
Belgium795 Posts
On December 12 2010 06:34 Koagel wrote: I think guides could be useful to teach visuals, not so much the other stuff, although I think it would be helpful if an experienced map maker would describe the whole process and write down the most important thoughts that go into placing certain features. I tried making some sort of guidelines for new mappers but I haven't seen much reponse on the thread. Probably I'm doing it completely wrong? Then again, even though I wrote that, I'm not slightly an experienced mapper such as iCCup'ers who've been in the mapping scene since beta if not since SC1. In the last few weeks running up to MotM #1 I've seen some mappers stepping it up and really trying hard to make a balanced map, while some still remain and 'sketches' of balanced maps in their minds. I can relate to those people though, I've made several bad maps in my past, and I will make several bad maps to come. (referring to City of the Sun, which is loaded with flaws & Shakuras Marshes, where close positions are super bad). But unlike some I'm learning from every mistake I make and trying to create a top notch map the next time. This is also the reason I refrain myself from replying to alot of mapthreads, I neither have the proper experience to do so, and I don't wanna say stuff that could hurt people and discourage them from creating better maps. | ||
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
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baskerville
541 Posts
+1"You need pictures that show what you explain there.." edit: cool, eye candy forthcoming @everyone: since i can't hold up, and it can go unnoticed i'll rant on this post about: mapmaker's skill + Show Spoiler + the first thing to come to mind is that "mapmaking and skill level gives you too many ins and outs to consider the second is that who you are when "applying a skill level to a mapmaker" counts for different people differently...(ie: anyone, a player, a pro, a mapmaker, and "old" mapmaker, a pig headed mapmaker....) my take+ Show Spoiler + in fact is very simple and only philosophically oriented: first and foremost: surf and make maps "seriously" second share third enjoy + Show Spoiler + a skill level applied to any other "variable" seems irrelevant and boring to me not that this thread is (quite the contrary), as shown when i bumped it, and would do it again next week until all "serious" mapmaker dipped their foot in... or Barrin does it. | ||
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EffectS
Belgium795 Posts
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