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United States1971 Posts
Nice update for Verdun, I think no XWTs works better than what I had suggested after reexamining the middle. 
Tiara definitely has a solid layout, and with regards to the middle, I like the left side example. I think that the middle on this map would serve best as a positional advantage and not a resource advantage like on Jungle Basin. Though, I understand that there would be little interest in that location during early and maybe into mid game because of the DRs. When I look at the middle of Tiara, something in my mind is shouting "low ground path!" like on Blistering Sands. That map had its problems, but I think that Blizzard knew some of what they were doing. If the middle on this map was low ground and the rocks were removed, then it would have RvR by being risky to travel to the low ground, but beneficial because it was the quickest and easiest way to get to your opponent.
Now, if Tiara evolved into that concept, only the middle path should be altered. The left and right sides of that path could remain at a higher level, and become like the gold expansions of Metalopolis, with a ramp towards the enemy, towards you, and towards neither of you. The other side would cliff the low ground path through the middle.
That was just a cool idea I had from looking at this map in more depth, but do what you want with it. It's mainly a cross between Metalopolis and Blistering Sands.
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
Mh, changing the mid to low ground means i have to scrap the lvl 2 areas and raise the now level 1 areas to level 2 and level 0 to level 1. That's why i'm unsure if this would still fit the theme i want to give this map.
Both current versions of Tiara for everyone all to compare:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Ljhta.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/nVgEP.jpg)
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Hey dezi, I just checked out churchill reservoir ingame and it is a really beautyful map!
As for the 2 pics you just posted, I think the lower one just feels by the looks of it much better!
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United States1971 Posts
On January 14 2011 20:44 dezi wrote:
Mh, changing the mid to low ground means i have to scrap the lvl 2 areas and raise the now level 1 areas to level 2 and level 0 to level 1. That's why i'm unsure if this would still fit the theme i want to give this map.
Ah, I see your point.
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Some suggestions for Tiara: -- nice name btw!
About the middle - I would
- widen the ramp blocked by rocks if possible (should still be blocked by 1 or 2+ sets of rocks)
- add on each side a tiny ramp with 90° and 270° angle, these can be really tiny (scouting, early aggression). Or a medium sized (early aggression + mid movement), depends on what you want to achieve.
- maybe remove the bases again. I think they messed with the the good parts about your old middle layout. Though, might just be my mind thinking the center should be designed for movement and fights and bases compromise this.
- narrow the gap between natural and center
- place the geyser nearer to center close to the main, move mineral patches as necesary
Layout general:
- Add one more base between third and fourth
- Redo third and fourth as needed
- remove that small high ground outside the natural. Instead push the center outwards again, or just leave it open.
cheers,
madsquare.
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- widen the ramp blocked by rocks if possible (should still be blocked by 1 or 2+ sets of rocks)
I think this is an awesome idea, though I completly disagree with everything else you suggested xD. The layout of the map atm is so nice and clear, if you add a fith between third and forth it gets overloaded, just as overloaded as the mid is with those bases...oh c, i agree with u here too.
I really don't see why u want the gap between natural and center narrowed, looks fine to me.
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i guess i might have been wrong when suggesting the extra bases on central structure.
still the wider cliff in the upper image looks more usefull to me.
i would try Madsquare's ideas.
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
Gonna work on those ideas tomorrow (gonna go watch Bundesliga soon ^^). Gonna see how this will look like (but for now concept 1 seems the to be the best version). Btw. where do you suggest to place those small ramps you mentioned Madsquare (PS: The name comes from the K-Pop band T-ara i was listening to while working on this one).
FYI: The blocked ramp is a double wide ramp blocked by a 6x6 rock.
Also drew another 4 player concept. It takes some ideas of Verdun but concludes in a complete different shape.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Vc7v8.jpg)
-136x136 playable size
-will use a pimped agria tileset (different man made cliff and some other textures)
-maybe gonna flood some areas like in Flushing Meadows
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somewhere here:
+ Show Spoiler +
But I would also redo the centers border and then fiddle around until I reach my desired rush distance.
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United States1971 Posts
On January 15 2011 02:47 dezi wrote:Gonna work on those ideas tomorrow (gonna go watch Bundesliga soon ^^). Gonna see how this will look like (but for now concept 1 seems the to be the best version). Btw. where do you suggest to place those small ramps you mentioned Madsquare (PS: The name comes from the K-Pop band T-ara i was listening to while working on this one). FYI: The blocked ramp is a double wide ramp blocked by a 6x6 rock. Also drew another 4 player concept. It takes some ideas of Verdun but concludes in a complete different shape. -136x136 playable size -will use a pimped agria tileset (different man made cliff and some other textures) -maybe gonna flood some areas like in Flushing Meadows
That's a pretty sweet concept, it inspired me to start making rotationally symmetrical maps, which I haven't made before. It is very similar to Verdun, except the middle is a lot more interesting in what kinds of gameplay it would lead to. Having the small sections of raised ground makes flanking and positioning on this map interesting, and it has a good XWT placement.
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reminds me of ICCup Europa with all these ramps from nat up and back down into third in both directions
+ Show Spoiler +
generally good concept. in comparison to Europa i lke that there is no extra ramps into a lower centre.
i think it could be interesting to have a really different centre. why not try something different? get rid of xelnagawatchtower and make a diamondshape plateau (pretty much between all small stone towers in centre). then you can only control a fourth in the middle when you control this little mountain top :D
think this would make it a bit more unique and interesting. make it motm-2 
tiara is nice, but probably a bit conservative/boring imho..
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
On January 15 2011 19:05 Samro225am wrote:reminds me of ICCup Europa with all these ramps from nat up and back down into third in both directions + Show Spoiler +generally good concept. in comparison to Europa i lke that there is no extra ramps into a lower centre. i think it could be interesting to have a really different centre. why not try something different? get rid of xelnagawatchtower and make a diamondshape plateau (pretty much between all small stone towers in centre). then you can only control a fourth in the middle when you control this little mountain top :D think this would make it a bit more unique and interesting. make it motm-2 tiara is nice, but probably a bit conservative/boring imho..
Made a version with your suggestions. But first take a look at the old one with Analyzer picture (note: 136x136 playable size and i gonna block the area of the nat from where you otherwise would be able to siege the the gas of the clockwise 3rd):
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/7AlzP.jpg)
Version with ideas from Samro:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/PG9lR.jpg)
Might gonna turn the area with the trees into a destructible rock. Also have a version with slightly repositioned ramps in the mid (the area next to the ramp is slightly bigger).
Analyzer Picture Gallery: http://img600.imageshack.us/g/einekartefrstarcraftii2.png/
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![[image loading]](http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1160/einekartefrstarcraftiis.png)
I think you really have to open the areas from fourth to fourth to fourth, in order to create a circle around the platform and/or make the ramps wider (full width of platform) otherwise zerg will have problem to fight uphill.this make the fourth easier to attack, but as the you layout is qite inteligent, players - also in close position - can always expand away into the next third, too.
when you want to expand towards he centre you have to control it, too. i think this can be a nice mechanic, when you have to decide where to get with your third and fourth.
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United States1971 Posts
I like Samro's version and your version, they are both really good and the middles are entirely different. I can't really chose one over the other.
When is iCCup going to add you to their mapping team lol?
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
On January 16 2011 04:11 Antares777 wrote:
I like Samro's version and your version, they are both really good and the middles are entirely different. I can't really chose one over the other.
When is iCCup going to add you to their mapping team lol?
Still not sure which one i choose. The version with the High Ground seems to be aesthetically more pleasing but also hinders movement. Already tought bout the idea to add small ramps next to the big ones (and maybe block them initially?) Something like this:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/kGAvo.jpg)
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did you try wide(like realy wide!) ramps? guess then there is not enoug space for the expansion.
i like the option to open up the space needed.
how many hitpoints are there, if one would try to open two or three sides?
did you try with one ramp and a small opening with one XNWT at each 'door' instead of trees? just keep on trying different stuff. I think the first try is well enough, but it looks like quite all iccup maps. there are so few things one can do in the tight centre of a rotational map.
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
I don't want to place 4 watchtowers in the mid. The blockers are currently unchanged (2k HP). Gonna lower this to maybe 500 if i keep this version. It's really to hard to create a good looking and also balanced mid :/
//edit
Another possibility would be to turn it into a low ground area ^^
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Hidden nazi-symbol produced by the map-analyzer :>,
although, finish Tiara or make it at avaible on EU plx -> wanna play it, still looks friggin awesome
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sMCmn.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/UB2xU.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/mOEGc.jpg)
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