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glad to see how bad it looks hehe when others try.. granted this is vs bisu.
Bisuvssoo
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On October 10 2009 04:27 fanatacist wrote: My PvZ is abysmal in general, but I seem to never win on this map EVER. Can someone explain to me why it is considered so imbalanced? I know the deal about the hard-to-secure 3rd base, but what build should I do to take advantage of this fact? P can hold expansions with gate blocks/cannon/temp until they are virtually invincible. P can then turtle around and expand / snipe expansions from zerg since there are so many entry ways to 3rd/4th etc expansions lurkers have to move which is bad but also static is isolated to singular expansions whereas on other maps you can static defend a nat and gain access to at least a main or another base. | ||
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SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
Not a bad sample size. Not great, but not bad. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On October 10 2009 04:41 {88}iNcontroL wrote: P can hold expansions with gate blocks/cannon/temp until they are virtually invincible. P can then turtle around and expand / snipe expansions from zerg since there are so many entry ways to 3rd/4th etc expansions lurkers have to move which is bad but also static is isolated to singular expansions whereas on other maps you can static defend a nat and gain access to at least a main or another base. I see, makes a lot of sense, thank you! | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3474 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On October 10 2009 06:50 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: I've had bad results playing pvz on this map and great results playing zvp. Z can turtle really well with the huge ramps and doom drops are very easy. Once you reach this stalemate situation where both have half of the map and are maxed out z can abuse their mobility so easily. I hear ya.. and I/z's do those things. unfortunately I think the upper level P's (B~A- atm) know they can seal up an expo with a gateway/pylon cannons and a temp and prep for the doom drops. Half map on a 1v1 map favors P's imo. Especially with the middle expansion having cliffs surround it (storm, goon etc). | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
On October 10 2009 05:48 Purind wrote: Fake drop didn't work. He shoulda loaded units into it, and not dropped, faking a fake drop so Bisu doesn't defend, then 10 seconds later dropped the units wow I actually thought a similar thing. not something to be proud of coz it's a bad idea when you look at it seriously. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
Most of the time you gotta give up map control as a P to secure that third, meaning you camp until canons finish so zerg can't backstab with lings or fly around you with mutas. By that time any decent Z has 4th mineral only secured, the 5th base comes free of charge. At this point the match has evolved to Z doing everything in its power to deny/kill protoss' 4th. Sure the 4th is fairly easy to take. What's not easy, on the other hand, is splitting your troops to defend the incoming doom drop while at the same time defending your soon to be overrun 4th. Pressure/harass while expanding? Sure, maybe bisu can distract/pressure zergs enough not to have his 3rd shut down, but what about us mere mortals? I still view heartbreak as a fairly balanced map though. It's a light version of destination. If zerg don't wanna die they can't be killed (not as ridiculous as desti, and zerg are only granted 3 free bases as opposed to 4 on desti lol). 3rd is hard to get up and running for P, but once it's up is fairly easy to defend (again HB much easier than desti to get a third up and running, but still hard). Hard to keep map control and stop zerg from taking more bases while securing 3rd. Well on desti it's pretty much pointless attacking into a zerg expansion unless you're doing some sort of an elaborate timing attack. HB... still hard but certainly doable. *Edit: Thanks alot for the rep, i'm gonna be studying it! | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On October 10 2009 07:28 niteReloaded wrote: wow I actually thought a similar thing. not something to be proud of coz it's a bad idea when you look at it seriously. What, why? It's actually a fantastic idea :S | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On October 10 2009 09:36 Harem wrote: lalush doing what he does best Being fairly wrong? I dunno what you mean by it is hard for the P to secure a 3rd.. it is REALLY easy. If you expand behind your force move out time there is no way a z can get at it without going uphill versus storm / P army and once the expansion has the block with static defense it is damn near impossible to break until swarm or severely overwhelming forces. The bang for your buck potential on HB grossly favors protoss. Like what uniquely about the map helps z? The mineral allows for another expansion? The mineral has a huge gaping ramp in front of it and a path to the side. It is also miles away from the production hatches and has 2 uphill ramps between the main/production and the mineral base. EVEN if you nail down that mineral and eventually secure the gas expansion behind it you are costing yourself static defense there AND at your original 3rd AND your main. If you rely on army all the P has to do (generally) is engage, pull back up a hill storm and roll over. If you try and counter mid/late game you are met with blocks and storms and that leaves only 1 thing to do: drop. Which the P knows so he has cannons/temps set up. It is a painful 20~30 minute process but I cannot tell you how many times I got whittled down due to facing a goon/temp heavy army while trying to counter/drop all day. Is HB like REALLY bad? no.. there are worse. But imo unless you are a progamer (stats are skewed, Z's are generally better than the P's atm) this map is really hard for z's vs p's at the B to A- ranks imo. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
This zerg played very well but he still got stomped Great rep. | ||
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HowitZer
United States1610 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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polarwolf
924 Posts
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imweakless
757 Posts
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StalkerSC
Canada378 Posts
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Mobius
Canada1268 Posts
On October 10 2009 12:59 Boblion wrote: Damn Bisu is so sharp.... This zerg played very well but he still got stomped Great rep. oh for sure | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
suprised he just ran probe away early and did not boether to see what was poping from larvae. Then he would have had the timing right on 2nd cannon. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On October 10 2009 11:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Being fairly wrong? I dunno what you mean by it is hard for the P to secure a 3rd.. it is REALLY easy. If you expand behind your force move out time there is no way a z can get at it without going uphill versus storm / P army and once the expansion has the block with static defense it is damn near impossible to break until swarm or severely overwhelming forces. The bang for your buck potential on HB grossly favors protoss. Like what uniquely about the map helps z? The mineral allows for another expansion? The mineral has a huge gaping ramp in front of it and a path to the side. It is also miles away from the production hatches and has 2 uphill ramps between the main/production and the mineral base. EVEN if you nail down that mineral and eventually secure the gas expansion behind it you are costing yourself static defense there AND at your original 3rd AND your main. If you rely on army all the P has to do (generally) is engage, pull back up a hill storm and roll over. If you try and counter mid/late game you are met with blocks and storms and that leaves only 1 thing to do: drop. Which the P knows so he has cannons/temps set up. It is a painful 20~30 minute process but I cannot tell you how many times I got whittled down due to facing a goon/temp heavy army while trying to counter/drop all day. Is HB like REALLY bad? no.. there are worse. But imo unless you are a progamer (stats are skewed, Z's are generally better than the P's atm) this map is really hard for z's vs p's at the B to A- ranks imo. Even bisu lost that third expo. I think that goes to show how easy it is to backstab within a certain and not so measly timing window. Within 4-5 minutes of getting that expo up you won't have enough canons, you won't have gateways in front of them, and you probably can't spare a templar (if you can, it doesn't do much good anyway with only 4, 5 canons or less there) to defend it. As a P you can't just sit and camp for 5 minutes, that's where the heart of the problem lies for me. That's just giving away 5 free bases to zerg... You gotta be aggressive on the map while still trying to guard yourself against those backstabs. At the same time you know you can't spend too much minerals on canons too quickly, because your army will be too light on units. All these factors combined do, in my opinion, give zerg a reasonable time window to shut that third down. Or if the P decides to just sit and camp, take and secure that 4th with a shitload of lurkers on the high ground on that wide ramp. Static defense? Most macro Zs i play only static def their main. The 3rd won't be accessible from any of the routes. If you switch from threatening the main to being aggressive towards the 4th mineral only, they just shuffle those 12-15 lurkers that were defending the main over to that pain in the ass high ground ramp near the 4th. For most Zs i face the key late game seems to be not letting protoss get control of that high ground leading to the 4th. And if they do... Sandwich them while they're entering the 4th. It's like when a P attacks into the desti 3rd. Half of his army will have a messed up AI chasing shit behind a sim city and the other half (usually dragoons) will be fighting units pouring in from behind. It's a sure way to lose a lead... I know from experience. I'm sure you can list a hundred things that annoy you as a Z on HB. Just remember the list on our side is probably just as long. Do other zergs complain as much as you do about HB? Take someone as ret for an example, he seems to have HB figured out pretty well don't you think? My take on it is that HB is fairly balanced. Possibly even slightly Z favored (as the progamer statistics show). HB really seems to favor macro oriented zergs, especially the ones doing muta tech switches to snipe templars. | ||
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blue_arrow
1971 Posts
On December 21 2012 12:59 Boblion wrote: Damn Bisu is so sharp.... This zerg played very well but he still got stomped Great rep. +1 thanks for the awesome rep | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
2. The map favors easier defense setups than other maps. YOu talk about how Z's can counter.. yep. They do that on ALL maps. This map uniquely makes a counter less productive if prepared for (as P's at higher levels all do). And by prepared I mean like literally 1 gateway, 4 cannons and a temp to absolutely shut down a 3rd. Additionally the 3rd is completely separate from the main so all unit cost for taking down the 3rd is cost specific to that third alone, not a main or another natural. This means amplified cost effective static defenses with a cleanup from the army OR simply a direct counter all result in a base trade of a P 3rd for a Z nat/main or (MORE CRITICAL) Z 3rd or 4th. I could go on.. but I won't for now  | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=1611 latest replay uploaded, pusan vs ych. Pusan has to sit and camp while Z secures 4th. Ych doesn't even play that well imo (doesn't mine on mineral only nor 5th base for a long time and keeps those ~10 lurkers defending the main stationary while the high ground to the 4th is being broken). But he does all those annoying little things that Protosses will complain about on HB. Only static defs his main. Waits until toss enters 4th before he sandwiches (REPEATEDLY). Uses small lingdrops to kill gateways. Muta switches to snipe templars so toss can't break high ground to 4th (although he fails because pusan is pimp... but most other zergs will succeed since toss can't spend too much resources on corsairs on a map like HB). Anyway. Watch it and perhaps you'll find that there are plenty of annoyances plaguing our side too (that you probably just thought of as normal stuff since you're a Z player). | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
The second Pusan switched his point of attack (main as oppose to the mineral only ramp) He stormed the zerg lurkers in transition and made a fairly cost effective attack. Had he at least attempted this instead of bludgeoning a goon/temp/archon army into a fortified ramp he probably would have won. But all that is really too specific for what I am saying. This map offers nothing that specifically makes the z counters good. You keep saying "he can make mutas to snipe temp" on what map does z not do that? "he can do small ling drops" SAME? "he can harrass expansions" same? My argument is that map has small chokes (ample for building block offs) and multiple entry points (bad for lurkers, static defense and z in general). | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28727 Posts
drops are crazy good and even b+ protosses lose games vs mine-mineral zergling runby lol i also do badly pvz there but that goes for most maps | ||
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