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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On April 18 2009 00:51 GGQ wrote: Protoss is just too weak for Bisu to ever be a Bonjwa, sad to say. He'll have to be satisfied with a couple titles every year or so. Poor guy. you shouldn't be playing starcraft if you think that. | ||
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GGQ
Canada2653 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On April 18 2009 10:57 stroggos wrote: you shouldn't be playing starcraft if you think that. who's the Romanian now? Wait... Damn! oO | ||
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Zinbiel
Sweden878 Posts
On April 17 2009 17:03 latent wrote: My point here is, in 2 out of 3 games Bisu found himself at a disadvantage early on (failed reaver Game 1, failed 2 shuttle harrass Game 3), and as time went on it became harder and harder for him to overcome that disadvantage because of the nature of the game. That's not necessarily a sign of inferior skill. It simply means Fantasy didn't make a large enough mistake for Bisu to capitalize on it and give himself an opportunity to get himself back into the game. That's why you need to take every series with a grain of salt. It's why Fantasy *shouldn't* be ranked over Bisu, since he historically has performed poorly in the pro leagues (below .500 average), even in the normal Pro League where matches and maps are decided long in advance, giving players plenty of time to practice. Well, according to your line of thought I would say that jaedong isn't any better than fantasy but fantasy still is better than bisu. Fantasy just made 1 mistake more than jaedong which led to his loss 3-2, but if you are the one doing the first mistake every time in 3 games, it does actually more strongly point in the direction of inferior skill, at least on that particular day. Not that I really disagree with the fact that bisu is better than fantasy, just with your justification, | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On April 17 2009 17:03 latent wrote: Ok ok, I think with regards to Fantasy's series against Bisu a little logical contemplation is in order. I was as shocked and disappointed as any Bisu fan when Bisu lost 3-0, but any Starcraft BoX series has to be taken with a grain of salt. The reason for this is the nature of *positive feedback* in Starcraft. It is this trait which makes Starcraft different from pretty much all national and international sports out there. What I mean by positive feedback is that when a player gains an advantage during a match, that player will be able to reinforce that advantage and over time it will grow. For example, if a player manages to harrass a player's economy by kililng a probe or 2, they will instantly have a small advantage in economy. But each of their extra probe or 2 will bring in a few extra minerals per mining trip, which will allow them to build probes and units faster than their opponent, which will lead to them being able to gain an even larger economic lead over their opponent. This is the problematic nature of Starcraft. Every little advantage counts, because it reinforces itself and builds up (in some cases exponentially, in fact) over time. Compare this to a sport without significant positive feedback, like basketball for example. An analogy to starcraft would be that if team A's score dropped to say 10 points below the other team's (team B) score, then team A would be required to pull a player off the court and play 4 vs. 5. This would naturally put them at an even further disadvantage. Of course this doesn't happen in basketball. If a team is down by 10, or even 50 points, they have the same chance to score as they did when they started the game. My point here is, in 2 out of 3 games Bisu found himself at a disadvantage early on (failed reaver Game 1, failed 2 shuttle harrass Game 3), and as time went on it became harder and harder for him to overcome that disadvantage because of the nature of the game. That's not necessarily a sign of inferior skill. It simply means Fantasy didn't make a large enough mistake for Bisu to capitalize on it and give himself an opportunity to get himself back into the game. That's why you need to take every series with a grain of salt. It's why Fantasy *shouldn't* be ranked over Bisu, since he historically has performed poorly in the pro leagues (below .500 average), even in the normal Pro League where matches and maps are decided long in advance, giving players plenty of time to practice. dude i'm going to have to ask you not to post in the power rank comments you make long-winded posts about what you learned in your berkeley sc class, none of which is actually applicable to professional starcraft. | ||
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
The ability to win in a series is necessary to become champion, so every series is NOT a grain of salt. The one who does not make small mistakes is inherently superior to the one who does because he has cleaner execution. Most strategies and counters today have been figured out. The largest human factor left seems to be mind games and execution. Like in sports, the one who has the best execution is the best. Any coach can teach strategy. Bisu did not perform up to par. He bogeyed that series. | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On April 19 2009 01:54 vnlegend wrote: His post applies. Simply put, he said: every little advantage matters. Long-winded and redundant, yes. The ability to win in a series is necessary to become champion, so every series is NOT a grain of salt. The one who does not make small mistakes is inherently superior to the one who does because he has cleaner execution. Most strategies and counters today have been figured out. The largest human factor left seems to be mind games and execution. Like in sports, the one who has the best execution is the best. Any coach can teach strategy. Bisu did not perform up to par. He bogeyed that series. He's not talking about that post only....... | ||
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traced
1739 Posts
On April 18 2009 13:07 GGQ wrote: Sorry, I guess I should have made my sarcasm less subtle :D. Seriously, I just wish Bisu would stop getting so cocky and have more of a Jaedong like attitude. so you prefer cocky and aggressive to cocky and humorless? =P | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
On April 19 2009 15:14 traced wrote: so you prefer cocky and aggressive to cocky and humorless? =P it was one game -.- Though I think he refers to the interviews rather than their playstyles. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7805 Posts
Bisu made mistakes that game because Fantasy forced them with better play. Simple as that. | ||
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piratebay
United States399 Posts
On April 10 2009 19:57 Scaramanga wrote: it'll be a cold day in hell before i consider fantasy a better terran than flash, I just cant take into account that bo5 against bisu, its just their team mates and thats what always happens, someone rapes Its just like Forgg in arena, yeah he 3-0ed the two best players on the planet but what did he do next season, nothing For fantasy to be a better terran he needs to have some half decent results in proleauge which he isnt doing I admit that this month he has played better than flash but calling him the best is wrong imo savior never had good proleague results in his prime. bisu didnt either for like 6 months. | ||
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Orbifold
United States1922 Posts
On April 17 2009 17:03 latent wrote: Ok ok, I think with regards to Fantasy's series against Bisu a little logical contemplation is in order. I was as shocked and disappointed as any Bisu fan when Bisu lost 3-0, but any Starcraft BoX series has to be taken with a grain of salt. The reason for this is the nature of *positive feedback* in Starcraft. It is this trait which makes Starcraft different from pretty much all national and international sports out there. What I mean by positive feedback is that when a player gains an advantage during a match, that player will be able to reinforce that advantage and over time it will grow. For example, if a player manages to harrass a player's economy by kililng a probe or 2, they will instantly have a small advantage in economy. But each of their extra probe or 2 will bring in a few extra minerals per mining trip, which will allow them to build probes and units faster than their opponent, which will lead to them being able to gain an even larger economic lead over their opponent. This is the problematic nature of Starcraft. Every little advantage counts, because it reinforces itself and builds up (in some cases exponentially, in fact) over time. Compare this to a sport without significant positive feedback, like basketball for example. An analogy to starcraft would be that if team A's score dropped to say 10 points below the other team's (team B) score, then team A would be required to pull a player off the court and play 4 vs. 5. This would naturally put them at an even further disadvantage. Of course this doesn't happen in basketball. If a team is down by 10, or even 50 points, they have the same chance to score as they did when they started the game. My point here is, in 2 out of 3 games Bisu found himself at a disadvantage early on (failed reaver Game 1, failed 2 shuttle harrass Game 3), and as time went on it became harder and harder for him to overcome that disadvantage because of the nature of the game. That's not necessarily a sign of inferior skill. It simply means Fantasy didn't make a large enough mistake for Bisu to capitalize on it and give himself an opportunity to get himself back into the game. That's why you need to take every series with a grain of salt. It's why Fantasy *shouldn't* be ranked over Bisu, since he historically has performed poorly in the pro leagues (below .500 average), even in the normal Pro League where matches and maps are decided long in advance, giving players plenty of time to practice. This has to be satire. Holy lol. | ||
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traced
1739 Posts
On April 19 2009 15:29 Avidkeystamper wrote: it was one game -.- Though I think he refers to the interviews rather than their playstyles. yeah i know, thats what i was referring to. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
Really? Could you link one? | ||
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traced
1739 Posts
something like: "i rarely lose in practice vs (x)" (to fantasy) "i have prepared against all of his possible builds," (fantasy responds), "sorry, but you won't win." "i will all-kill" (just as much as bisu, who got a lot of shit for saying it.) they're both cocky, difference is all in the perception | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
I loved the part where Iloveoov is building a machine hehe, btw I think Boxer is helping just as much o,o | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
On April 20 2009 17:49 traced wrote: something like: "i rarely lose in practice vs (x)" (to fantasy) "i have prepared against all of his possible builds," (fantasy responds), "sorry, but you won't win." "i will all-kill" (just as much as bisu, who got a lot of shit for saying it.) they're both cocky, difference is all in the perception Really? Could you link one? | ||
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Hugo(Sphere)
United States44 Posts
On April 17 2009 17:03 latent wrote: Ok ok, I think with regards to Fantasy's series against Bisu a little logical contemplation is in order. I was as shocked and disappointed as any Bisu fan when Bisu lost 3-0, but any Starcraft BoX series has to be taken with a grain of salt. The reason for this is the nature of *positive feedback* in Starcraft. It is this trait which makes Starcraft different from pretty much all national and international sports out there. What I mean by positive feedback is that when a player gains an advantage during a match, that player will be able to reinforce that advantage and over time it will grow. For example, if a player manages to harrass a player's economy by kililng a probe or 2, they will instantly have a small advantage in economy. But each of their extra probe or 2 will bring in a few extra minerals per mining trip, which will allow them to build probes and units faster than their opponent, which will lead to them being able to gain an even larger economic lead over their opponent. This is the problematic nature of Starcraft. Every little advantage counts, because it reinforces itself and builds up (in some cases exponentially, in fact) over time. Compare this to a sport without significant positive feedback, like basketball for example. An analogy to starcraft would be that if team A's score dropped to say 10 points below the other team's (team B) score, then team A would be required to pull a player off the court and play 4 vs. 5. This would naturally put them at an even further disadvantage. Of course this doesn't happen in basketball. If a team is down by 10, or even 50 points, they have the same chance to score as they did when they started the game. My point here is, in 2 out of 3 games Bisu found himself at a disadvantage early on (failed reaver Game 1, failed 2 shuttle harrass Game 3), and as time went on it became harder and harder for him to overcome that disadvantage because of the nature of the game. That's not necessarily a sign of inferior skill. It simply means Fantasy didn't make a large enough mistake for Bisu to capitalize on it and give himself an opportunity to get himself back into the game. That's why you need to take every series with a grain of salt. It's why Fantasy *shouldn't* be ranked over Bisu, since he historically has performed poorly in the pro leagues (below .500 average), even in the normal Pro League where matches and maps are decided long in advance, giving players plenty of time to practice. Hey, not only was it long-winded but it was also incorrect. I can think of two major sports right off the top of my head with positive feedback: Baseball and Football. Early edge in runs always gives a pitcher an advantage. He will not be as worried about challenging guys and giving up a lucky home run and will therefore throw more strikes (at least usually). Managers talk about this all the time. Football is the same way. Early touchdown leads allow teams to turn to the running game, eating up clock time and pounding on opposing defenses. Coaches and fans also talk about this all the time. The advantage of the early lead is huge in these two sports, just like Starcraft and make it harder for the other player/team to claw his/their way back. And in all three cases, good opponents usually have a window or two to get back into the game. And yes, with Basketball positive feedback is much less of a factor. You have to repeatedly score due to the shot clock, unless it's the last five minutes and that's usually the only time worth watching anyway  | ||
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purple[time]
13 Posts
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traced
1739 Posts
just find any recent interview or read the osl finals thread | ||
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