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Valhalla18444 Posts
Close, but No Cigar
Zero: Zero is good, but not very often. ZvZ ain't enough. This should be pretty clear to everyone, despite the MSL Semifinal he tried to play in.
Light: Improving, but not currently in an environment that is really conducive to breaking far into individual leagues. He did what he could to pull MBC out of their Winner's League hole, but his losses were usually pretty tragic.
There's always been a certain level of promise about Light, often completely overlooked because of the high expectations everyone always has of Sea. He isn't playing as good as this top ten, though.
Leta: Playing like ass. Why he's decided to adjust his winning formula I don't understand. He is taking more risks, but doesn't have the mechanics or game sense to back them up. Stick to what works, man. Predictability is not something Leta needs to worry about.
More to come
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Yay, return of the king, LJD!
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WOOOO NEW POWER RANK!!
Thanks fakesteve!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
i also wrote a fancy newspost go check it out
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Awesome rank Steve. Makes sense to me 
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Nada the greatest player of all time? Boxer would have something to say to that. 
He is definitely the most successful progamer though.
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Awesome. Thank you FakeSteve for all your time and effort. Great to see JD back on top by the way.
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yeah Zerg rules 1-2 Luxury fckn [GsP]
CNBC for Light pls
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Hungary11262 Posts
hmm, more CBNC: Leta and Light for starters, as they both dropped out of the rank? Apart from that I am fine with the placement.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
What do you think about Light steve
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NaDa is a hero. He never gives up. I'd say he's like a machine but he's not, he's better than a machine. That guy continues to amaze me. Every time I think he's finally down for the count, he comes back swinging harder than ever.
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Fantasy played so perfectly the first two games that I thought he was going to win the third, but that didn't happen and I do believe that Jaedong is bonjwa material, even though he lost to skyhigh. And jangbi, go for a gold next time! =P
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On April 10 2009 18:10 Plexa wrote:
What do you think about Light steve
Improving, but not currently in an environment that is really conducive to breaking far into individual leagues. He did what he could to pull MBC out of their Winner's League hole, but his losses were usually pretty tragic.
There's always been a certain level of promise about Light, often completely overlooked because of the high expectations everyone always has of Sea. He isn't playing as good as this top ten, though.
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i dont agree on Luxury's ZvP being that good, his placement is justified though.
My toughts on the finals: jangbi is a very strong toss, but not the best against Z, certanely not weak, i dont think he's even top 3, debatable
Game 1: Sim-city mistake, what the hell Jangbi, not even B teamers do this kind of mistakes, with lingrunby he killed 8 probes and the forge once again. Jangbi still was in that, til he decided is fun to send a ctrl group of units in lurkers sunkens spores lings and whatnot at Lux's natural
Game 2: What a letdown, Luxury opened very strong teching hive, having presence on the map, and when Jangbi moves out instead of denieing the next expo or flanking the mian army he sends 2 groups of cracklings to die for nothing..
Game 3 ling runby, you cant blame Jangbi, that was nice, but than with 7-8 lings he barely killed any probes. Ok, he done the dmg, but the best ZvP player should rape the probes with that many lings. Jangbi tought he's smart and gone 2 stargate, gg
Game 4 Nicely done really, this was beautiful, Luxury played it perfect, jangbi didnt but that's not Lux's fault
other than that, very nicely done, pity it's this late
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Oh, and put Leta in CBNC imo, i dont think he seemed weak when he got dropped from the Leauges, still very strong player
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Valhalla18444 Posts
hey Geo.Rion: I can taste your tears, crying about how late the Power Rank is. They are salty, and they are making me dumber. Cry out the dumb, Geo.Rion. Cry it all out.
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On April 10 2009 18:24 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
hey Geo.Rion: I can taste your tears, crying about how late the Power Rank is. They are salty, and they are making me dumber. Cry out the dumb, Geo.Rion. Cry it all out.
answering maybe the main part of my comment not the PostScriptum?
and btw it's strange you are offended when s1 is complaining about you being late, best defence is attack, right?
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YEA NADA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On April 10 2009 18:27 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2009 18:24 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
hey Geo.Rion: I can taste your tears, crying about how late the Power Rank is. They are salty, and they are making me dumber. Cry out the dumb, Geo.Rion. Cry it all out. answering maybe the main part of my comment not the PostScriptum? and btw it's strange you are offended when s1 is complaining about you being late, best defence is attack, right?
I'm not offended, I am suggesting that you are a crying baby
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On April 10 2009 18:20 Geo.Rion wrote:
i dont agree on Luxury's ZvP being that good, his placement is justified though.
My toughts on the finals: jangbi is a very strong toss, but not the best against Z, certanely not weak, i dont think he's even top 3, debatable
Game 1: Sim-city mistake, what the hell Jangbi, not even B teamers do this kind of mistakes, with lingrunby he killed 8 probes and the forge once again. Jangbi still was in that, til he decided is fun to send a ctrl group of units in lurkers sunkens spores lings and whatnot at Lux's natural
Game 2: What a letdown, Luxury opened very strong teching hive, having presence on the map, and when Jangbi moves out instead of denieing the next expo or falnking the mian army he sends 2 groups of cracklings to die for nothing..
Game 3 ling runby, you cant blam Jangbi, that was nice, but than with 7-8 lings he barely killed any probes. Ok, he done the dmg, but the best ZvP player should rape the probes with that many lings. Jangbi tought he's smart and gone 2 stargate, gg
Game 4 Nicely done really, this was beautiful, Luxury played it perfect, jangbi wasnt but that's not Lux's fault
other than that, very nicely done, pity it's this late
Very well put, I agree entirely except my conclusion is very different.
Also I don't even think Luxury is the 2nd best ZvP player in the world. He's not as good as July OR Jaedong.
Let's look at what he actually did this month:
He beat Zero in a ZvZ... well that's not super impressive.
He got dumped out of the OSL by Fantasy.
He went 2win 3loss in Winner's league. Getting utterly destroyed by Jaedong... again.
Then he beats Jangbi in the MSL final. This is impressive and he should rightly get some credit for this. But let's not go wild because Jangbi did not play very well.
When you look at that it's not the resume of a 2nd place PR.
Now consider Fantasy:
He beat Luxury in the OSL.
He beat Bisu convincingly in the OSL.
He went 2-2 in the Winner's league
He lost an amazing TvZ final to the best player in the world. A final he was SO close to winning.
That to me is much more impressive.
Look at the quality of opponents. Fantasy beats Luxury, beats Bisu and takes TWO games off Jaedong. Luxury beats Zero and Jangbi? That's nowhere near as hard.
The fact they played each other in and Fantasy won should make the decision even easier.
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On April 10 2009 18:34 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2009 18:27 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 10 2009 18:24 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
hey Geo.Rion: I can taste your tears, crying about how late the Power Rank is. They are salty, and they are making me dumber. Cry out the dumb, Geo.Rion. Cry it all out. answering maybe the main part of my comment not the PostScriptum? and btw it's strange you are offended when s1 is complaining about you being late, best defence is attack, right? I'm not offended, I am suggesting that you are a crying baby
by this logic, he's not crying, he's stating that it is late (which also happens to be a fact whereas your suggestion is an opinion).
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On April 10 2009 18:34 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2009 18:27 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 10 2009 18:24 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
hey Geo.Rion: I can taste your tears, crying about how late the Power Rank is. They are salty, and they are making me dumber. Cry out the dumb, Geo.Rion. Cry it all out. answering maybe the main part of my comment not the PostScriptum? and btw it's strange you are offended when s1 is complaining about you being late, best defence is attack, right? I'm not offended, I am suggesting that you are a crying baby
i am suggesting you are bashing on whatever you can and ignoring any criticism, i write a ~10 round long post about sg you mentioned, write a PS which include a few words "it's pity it's late", you dont answer my analyses, that's fine, you are not supposed to, but you answer the PS and you are saying i'm a crybaby. Whatever, if that makes you feel happy and mature, go ahead.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
EEJAEDONG
Fantasy is #3. He won games that mattered, he lost 2-3 in the finals. He owned Bisu 3-0.
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
I know Skyhigh monstered through in the WL Finals but you were talking about his weird style, are these games a good example of this or are there others?
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After considered thought:
1. Jaedong
2. Bisu
3. Fantasy
4. Luxury
Bisu goes higher because he also played an amazing best of 5 against Jaedong.
He went 6-2 in the WL.
He beat Best in the OSL.
Now although he did lose to Fantasy. They are teammates and PvT is his worst match-up. Before this game everyone was thinking a Bisu-Jaedong final was a dead-cert because Bisu was on fire.
He slipped up in that game, but I think overall he just pips Fantasy this month.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On April 10 2009 18:58 Klive5ive wrote:
After considered thought:
1. Jaedong
2. Bisu
3. Fantasy
4. Luxury
Bisu goes higher because he also played an amazing best of 5 against Jaedong.
He went 6-2 in the WL.
He beat Best in the OSL.
Now although he did lose to Fantasy. They are teammates and PvT is his worst match-up. Before this game everyone was thinking a Bisu-Jaedong final was a dead-cert because Bisu was on fire.
He slipped up in that game, but I think overall he just pips Fantasy this month.
MSL belt is so irrelevant any bum can get one. Starleague wins must be respected as much as possible even if he didn't have to play jd and bisu (they lost to other players).
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On April 10 2009 19:01 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2009 18:58 Klive5ive wrote:
After considered thought:
1. Jaedong
2. Bisu
3. Fantasy
4. Luxury
Bisu goes higher because he also played an amazing best of 5 against Jaedong.
He went 6-2 in the WL.
He beat Best in the OSL.
Now although he did lose to Fantasy. They are teammates and PvT is his worst match-up. Before this game everyone was thinking a Bisu-Jaedong final was a dead-cert because Bisu was on fire.
He slipped up in that game, but I think overall he just pips Fantasy this month. MSL belt is so irrelevant any bum can get one. Starleague wins must be respected as much as possible even if he didn't have to play jd and bisu (they lost to other players).
Sorry I don't follow, who are you talking about?
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On April 10 2009 18:58 Klive5ive wrote:
After considered thought:
1. Jaedong
2. Bisu
3. Fantasy
4. Luxury
Bisu goes higher because he also played an amazing best of 5 against Jaedong.
He went 6-2 in the WL.
He beat Best in the OSL.
Now although he did lose to Fantasy. They are teammates and PvT is his worst match-up. Before this game everyone was thinking a Bisu-Jaedong final was a dead-cert because Bisu was on fire.
He slipped up in that game, but I think overall he just pips Fantasy this month.
What were you doing in the last months,because I guess watching Starcraft wasn't one of your activities. P v T is no way his worst matchup lately,on the contrary,he is fucking strong in it. Even as a Bisu fan,I must say that even no 3 is too high for him,there is no point in arguing. Btw good rank Steve.
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is awesome32269 Posts
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On April 10 2009 19:04 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2009 19:01 Magic84 wrote:On April 10 2009 18:58 Klive5ive wrote:
After considered thought:
1. Jaedong
2. Bisu
3. Fantasy
4. Luxury
Bisu goes higher because he also played an amazing best of 5 against Jaedong.
He went 6-2 in the WL.
He beat Best in the OSL.
Now although he did lose to Fantasy. They are teammates and PvT is his worst match-up. Before this game everyone was thinking a Bisu-Jaedong final was a dead-cert because Bisu was on fire.
He slipped up in that game, but I think overall he just pips Fantasy this month. MSL belt is so irrelevant any bum can get one. Starleague wins must be respected as much as possible even if he didn't have to play jd and bisu (they lost to other players). Sorry I don't follow, who are you talking about?
What, is it that tough to understand my engrish? He just won a starleague gold, achievement most of the players never come close to. Why is it so disrespected by some people?
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On April 10 2009 19:05 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2009 18:58 Klive5ive wrote:
After considered thought:
1. Jaedong
2. Bisu
3. Fantasy
4. Luxury
Bisu goes higher because he also played an amazing best of 5 against Jaedong.
He went 6-2 in the WL.
He beat Best in the OSL.
Now although he did lose to Fantasy. They are teammates and PvT is his worst match-up. Before this game everyone was thinking a Bisu-Jaedong final was a dead-cert because Bisu was on fire.
He slipped up in that game, but I think overall he just pips Fantasy this month. What were you doing in the last months,because I guess watching Starcraft wasn't one of your activities. P v T is no way his worst matchup lately,on the contrary,he is fucking strong in it. Even as a Bisu fan,I must say that even no 3 is too high for him,there is no point in arguing. Btw good rank Steve.
I don't disagree; his PvT IS fucking strong. But you can't say it's not his weakest without suggesting what is weaker you moron.
You want to tell me his PvP is weaker? With recent wins against Jangbi and Best.
Or his PvZ? He's 14-6in his last 20. Half of those losses came in the incredible series with Jaedong.
You're a pretty awful fan if your favourite player loses one series to a high-level teammate and you write him off.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Steve, if fantasy had won one more game in the OSL would he have been #1?
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On April 10 2009 19:13 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2009 19:04 Klive5ive wrote:On April 10 2009 19:01 Magic84 wrote:On April 10 2009 18:58 Klive5ive wrote:
After considered thought:
1. Jaedong
2. Bisu
3. Fantasy
4. Luxury
Bisu goes higher because he also played an amazing best of 5 against Jaedong.
He went 6-2 in the WL.
He beat Best in the OSL.
Now although he did lose to Fantasy. They are teammates and PvT is his worst match-up. Before this game everyone was thinking a Bisu-Jaedong final was a dead-cert because Bisu was on fire.
He slipped up in that game, but I think overall he just pips Fantasy this month. MSL belt is so irrelevant any bum can get one. Starleague wins must be respected as much as possible even if he didn't have to play jd and bisu (they lost to other players). Sorry I don't follow, who are you talking about? What, is it that tough to understand my engrish? He just won a starleague gold, achievement most of the players never come close to. Why is it so disrespected by some people?
Sorry I was confused because you said "MSL belt is so irrelevant". The context of that was hard to read.
You need a lot of luck to win a gold. In any knock-out competition you have to take the winner with considered opinion because often they aren't the best overall competitor. If you take league wins as Gospel then you're basically basing your opinions on more luck than judgment.
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On April 10 2009 19:15 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2009 19:05 Darth Peter wrote:On April 10 2009 18:58 Klive5ive wrote:
After considered thought:
1. Jaedong
2. Bisu
3. Fantasy
4. Luxury
Bisu goes higher because he also played an amazing best of 5 against Jaedong.
He went 6-2 in the WL.
He beat Best in the OSL.
Now although he did lose to Fantasy. They are teammates and PvT is his worst match-up. Before this game everyone was thinking a Bisu-Jaedong final was a dead-cert because Bisu was on fire.
He slipped up in that game, but I think overall he just pips Fantasy this month. What were you doing in the last months,because I guess watching Starcraft wasn't one of your activities. P v T is no way his worst matchup lately,on the contrary,he is fucking strong in it. Even as a Bisu fan,I must say that even no 3 is too high for him,there is no point in arguing. Btw good rank Steve. I don't disagree; his PvT IS fucking strong. But you can't say it's not his weakest without suggesting what is weaker you moron. You want to tell me his PvP is weaker? With recent wins against Jangbi and Best. Or his PvZ? He's 14-6in his last 20. Half of those losses came in the incredible series with Jaedong. You're a pretty awful fan if your favourite player loses one series to a high-level teammate and you write him off.
First of all I didn't call you moron so that was uncalled for. Second,I think he has no weak matchups. He is fucking strong in all the matchups. I don't really have the balls to call any of his MU "the weakest" right now,because he is equally strong in all of them. Thirdly. I am more like a realistic fan. I don't let my bias cloud my judgmenet. Because he is my favorite player,that doesn't mean I have to say that he is the best even tho he isn't.
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On April 10 2009 19:15 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2009 19:05 Darth Peter wrote:On April 10 2009 18:58 Klive5ive wrote:
After considered thought:
1. Jaedong
2. Bisu
3. Fantasy
4. Luxury
Bisu goes higher because he also played an amazing best of 5 against Jaedong.
He went 6-2 in the WL.
He beat Best in the OSL.
Now although he did lose to Fantasy. They are teammates and PvT is his worst match-up. Before this game everyone was thinking a Bisu-Jaedong final was a dead-cert because Bisu was on fire.
He slipped up in that game, but I think overall he just pips Fantasy this month. What were you doing in the last months,because I guess watching Starcraft wasn't one of your activities. P v T is no way his worst matchup lately,on the contrary,he is fucking strong in it. Even as a Bisu fan,I must say that even no 3 is too high for him,there is no point in arguing. Btw good rank Steve. I don't disagree; his PvT IS fucking strong. But you can't say it's not his weakest without suggesting what is weaker you moron. You want to tell me his PvP is weaker? With recent wins against Jangbi and Best. Or his PvZ? He's 14-6in his last 20. Half of those losses came in the incredible series with Jaedong. You're a pretty awful fan if your favourite player loses one series to a high-level teammate and you write him off.
Bisu right now is a really balanced player, probably best in PvP because he's faster than every toss has better multitask and mechanics. But his PvT and PvZ are S class too, even though he shows signs of weakness sometimes. You seem to forget that he allkilled the terran lineup, (and wemade not long ago with 2 good TvP) this isnt sg a PR must take into consideration, but if you are arguing about his PvT you can't ignore that
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Disagree with the comment "sometimes-better" muta control on Luxury zzzzzzz
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... What has the power rank become 
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On April 10 2009 19:20 Plexa wrote:
Steve, if fantasy had won one more game in the OSL would he have been #1?
Yes, but why are you asking that question? It doesn't make any sense.
Maybe you could ask "If Fantasy had managed to block Jaedong's build a third time and won the series by outplaying Jaedong 3 times in a best of 5 OSL final" instead. Why on earth would you simplify it to "If Fantasy won one more game in the OSL"?
The only way Fantasy would be #1 was if he won game 3, or at least didn't get totally run over in games 3 and 4. Jaedong found a timing on-the-fly to counter Fantasy, and Fantasy couldn't deal with it. That's essentially what the entire series boils down to, as well as that sick 2ling/drone vulture block.
Fantasy is below Bisu and Luxury for the simple reason that this is a recurring theme in his games. He has wonderful snap decision making abilities in TvP, but it doesn't translate to his other matchups. Preparation is only half the battle, you know?
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On April 10 2009 19:20 Plexa wrote:
Steve, if fantasy had won one more game in the OSL would he have been #1?
Probably, If fantasy took game 3 we would get the same scenario as Forgg in Arena MSL, greatest run possible at the time, 3-0ing the best Z, 3-0ing the best P, and taking out the MSL winner. I think he wouldve been no1 with no doubt. Id bump up fantasy to #2 in my rank and bump bisu and lux down. Otherwise not a bad PR and no10 is usually negligible and up for debate.
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
Can we make it a rule that if you lose to someone in a Bo5, then you're below them in the Power Rank?
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On April 10 2009 19:49 HonestTea wrote:
Can we make it a rule that if you lose to someone in a Bo5, then you're below them in the Power Rank?
that would be quite stupid, since the other might have had less time to practice or the best MU vs worst MU scenario etcetc
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it'll be a cold day in hell before i consider fantasy a better terran than flash,
I just cant take into account that bo5 against bisu, its just their team mates and thats what always happens, someone rapes
Its just like Forgg in arena, yeah he 3-0ed the two best players on the planet but what did he do next season, nothing
For fantasy to be a better terran he needs to have some half decent results in proleauge which he isnt doing
I admit that this month he has played better than flash but calling him the best is wrong imo
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I'm just glad Nada is back in again!
And I do think that even if Jaedong had lost the OSL final he should have still been no. 1. His play the last (few) month(s) has just been amazing.
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Even though hes not on the power rank what do you think about ruby? Do you think he has potential? I always liked him because he had a very entertaining tvz style but after losing to by.hero it seems like his confidence in his vs z just disappeared .
Thank you for the pr. Really love reading your thoughts.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 10 2009 19:30 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2009 19:20 Plexa wrote:
Steve, if fantasy had won one more game in the OSL would he have been #1? Yes, but why are you asking that question? It doesn't make any sense. Maybe you could ask "If Fantasy had managed to block Jaedong's build a third time and won the series by outplaying Jaedong 3 times in a best of 5 OSL final" instead. Why on earth would you simplify it to "If Fantasy won one more game in the OSL"? The only way Fantasy would be #1 was if he won game 3, or at least didn't get totally run over in games 3 and 4. Jaedong found a timing on-the-fly to counter Fantasy, and Fantasy couldn't deal with it. That's essentially what the entire series boils down to, as well as that sick 2ling/drone vulture block. Fantasy is below Bisu and Luxury for the simple reason that this is a recurring theme in his games. He has wonderful snap decision making abilities in TvP, but it doesn't translate to his other matchups. Preparation is only half the battle, you know? I'm just not convinced that Luxury is better than fantasy is all. He pushed Jaedong, the best ZvT in the world without question, to within breaking point. He also trashed Luxury 2-1 losing on Medusa (Z>T map anyway) in the OSL. I'm also not convinced that Bisu is worse than Luxury; he pushes Jaedong to the very limit in GOM and he trashed July (ZvP god) and Yarnc in the group stages. Despite stumbling against by.hero, if Bisu and Luxury played 100 time on balanced maps i'd expect bisu to win more than luxury.
=/ I feel that Luxury is too highly placed for what was really quite an easy MSL run. Jaedong/Flash/Bisu were all taken out relatively early on by freak happenings and the overall competition imo was weaker than the OSLs (hence why Jangbi/Luxury weren't semifinalists in the OSL).
Regardless, I agree that Bisu should be over Fantasy though... those maps were the WORST possible maps for the series (all T>>P) and Bisu is the better player.
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i think fantasy should be higher up than luxury even though im not a huge fan...
skyhigh ftw!
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I'd complain about the details, but Jaedong's possession of the throne is all that matters.
Behold the fury of the swarm.
BTW, it would be neat if the names in the PR sidebar linked to the player profiles.
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Now, Bisu is above Fantasy for two reasons. The first should be obvious - Bisu's average game has been astounding lately, whereas Fantasy has only excelled in series where he has a lot of time to prepare.
Second, let's have a look at Bisu vs Fantasy from the OSL Semifinal. Now, this was a 3-0 drubbing of the highest order. Usually, this would be a strong indicator of who is better. In this specific instance, that's not the case. It shows that Bisu vastly underestimated Fantasy, and shows that his preparation went in completely the wrong direction. That's bad, but given Bisu's long history of success, we KNOW this is not the norm, and we KNOW this is not going to happen so simply again.
I disagree with putting Bisu above Fantasy.
I can accept your first reason - that as against other people, Bisu is perhaps better than Fantasy.
But in the head to head matchup, I fail to see why Fantasy's extraordinary preparation for the series should count against him, and at the same time, Bisu's underestimation of Fantasy should be taken in Bisu's favour. If anything at all, these should count in Fantasy's favour - a clear sign of a man with a plan executing it flawlessly against an opponent who underestimated his enemy and had underprepared or misprepared.
Besides, whether Bisu actually underestimated Fantasy is pure speculation on your part. And it's not as if Fantasy had a lot more time to prepare than Bisu - both of them had WL duties a few days ago.
To draw an analogy: take the latest NBA season: Cleveland goes 63-15 in the regular season; whereas Dallas goes 47-31. Both go on to qualify for the playoffs, where Dallas drubs Cleveland 4-0.
Would you put Cleveland on top of Dallas if there was some NBA power rank? If Cleveland had underestimated Dallas, or Dallas had came up with a beautiful game plan just to counter Cleveland, why should that count in Dallas's favour?
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well, I`m ok with the whole PR minus one thing..and I bet you know what: Jaedong ZvP > Luxury's.
the ranking is ok, but the comments are a bit off imo, coz I also don`t agree with Fantasy being the best T, for exactly the same reason you've mentioned, Steve. Sure, he had way better results this month, so he is higher, but not better imho
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On April 10 2009 19:49 HonestTea wrote:
Can we make it a rule that if you lose to someone in a Bo5, then you're below them in the Power Rank?
I believe this breaks the many months of Flash being higher than Jaedong, actually.
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I'm surprised that people seem to be valuing Fantasy's Bo3 win over Luxury so highly, going so far as to say that Fantasy should rank higher than Luxury because of it. You don't think the fact that Luxury was in both leagues had anything at all to do with it?
Also, I know I say this all the time and it hasn't come true yet, but damnit, Zero WILL get his shit together some day.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On April 10 2009 20:27 luiohh wrote:Show nested quote +Now, Bisu is above Fantasy for two reasons. The first should be obvious - Bisu's average game has been astounding lately, whereas Fantasy has only excelled in series where he has a lot of time to prepare.
Second, let's have a look at Bisu vs Fantasy from the OSL Semifinal. Now, this was a 3-0 drubbing of the highest order. Usually, this would be a strong indicator of who is better. In this specific instance, that's not the case. It shows that Bisu vastly underestimated Fantasy, and shows that his preparation went in completely the wrong direction. That's bad, but given Bisu's long history of success, we KNOW this is not the norm, and we KNOW this is not going to happen so simply again.
I disagree with putting Bisu above Fantasy. I can accept your first reason - that as against other people, Bisu is perhaps better than Fantasy. But in the head to head matchup, I fail to see why Fantasy's extraordinary preparation for the series should count against him, and at the same time, Bisu's underestimation of Fantasy should be taken in Bisu's favour. If anything at all, these should count in Fantasy's favour - a clear sign of a man with a plan executing it flawlessly against an opponent who underestimated his enemy and had underprepared or misprepared. Besides, whether Bisu actually underestimated Fantasy is pure speculation on your part. And it's not as if Fantasy had a lot more time to prepare than Bisu - both of them had WL duties a few days ago. To draw an analogy: take the latest NBA season: Cleveland goes 63-15 in the regular season; whereas Dallas goes 47-31. Both go on to qualify for the playoffs, where Dallas drubs Cleveland 4-0. Would you put Cleveland on top of Dallas if there was some NBA power rank? If Cleveland had underestimated Dallas, or Dallas had came up with a beautiful game plan just to counter Cleveland, why should that count in Dallas's favour?
The entire point of all that was I am ranking players according to how well they have played over the last month. It's like suggesting Tempest is a better player than Light because he beat him twice in MSL. There are more variables that need to be considered, and Bisu comes out on top in every one but that series. The point I was trying to make is that Bisu losing 3-0 isn't the be-all and end-all barometer with which we can measure player performance.
And yes, saying Bisu underestimated Fantasy is pure speculation on why Bisu's preparation was so illogical.
HonestTea, why don't we just calculate winrates using TLPD and post that instead? Simplifies the whole process, wouldn't that be nice?
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Fantasy is the best Terran on earth, all his flaws included. Second OSL final in a row, second heartbreaking 2-3 loss. iloveoov is building a mechanical titan, but construction is not yet complete. He's well ahead of schedule, though.
What seperates Fantasy from other Terrans right now is his game sense - his TvP is a thing of beauty; not nearly as mechanically impressive as Flash, but wholly more devastating all the same. Fantasy brings intelligence and flexibility against Protoss to an entirely new level, similar to what Sea[Shield] was doing two years ago. I'm sure Protoss pros will eventually figure this out and begin cheesing him endlessly, but I think Fantasy is capable of shrugging it all off. When you watch Fantasy play, you aren't watching an SKT T1 Terran. You are watching the next inevitable step in the evolution of StarCraft. The fish has grown legs, but the lungs ain't done yet.
Fakesteve i dont see how fantasy has evolved TvP to another level when over the past month he has only played the Bo5 vs bisu where he won easily because he knows bisu's play style so well
There wasnt really anything special about fantasy's play in that series, so i was just wondering what you ment by that comment
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On April 10 2009 17:57 TheTyranid wrote:Nada the greatest player of all time? Boxer would have something to say to that.
I bet he would....until he would notice the badges on Nada`s collar
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konadora
Singapore66117 Posts
Perfect, except that I think July's PvZ has been better than Luxury's the past few weeks, despite the fact that Luxury did win Jangbi in the MSL finals.
Also, despite being a HUUUUGEE Fantasy fan (Not really into Bisu, sorry), I must agree that Bisu is still better than Fantasy, and just because Fantasy won him 3-0 doesn't mean he's better than Bisu. Well-written.
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On April 10 2009 20:36 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2009 19:49 HonestTea wrote:
Can we make it a rule that if you lose to someone in a Bo5, then you're below them in the Power Rank?
Ugh, he obviously meant "lose to someone in a Bo5 THAT MONTH". I believe this breaks the many months of Flash being higher than Jaedong, actually.
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HOLY SHIT. By.hero makes Power Rank. Two Zerg players on top. Great Power Rank. :D
Watch HoeJJa this season.
Also the two Sparkyz Zerg, YarnC and type-b.
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On April 10 2009 20:13 amanet wrote:
bisu > jae & lux
more like JD > All
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Wtf? NaDa on 10?
Don't get me wrong, I love NaDa as much as the next person but to put him on rank 10 for ONE World Class Series? I don't know about that...
I also think that Luxury doesn't quite deserve to be on 2. Especially in direct comparison with fantasy, which some guy above me already did. Best ZvP on earth? I highly highly doubt that. The series against JangBi surely wasn't enough to convince me. Imo it was as much JangBi losing as Luxury winning. And if you can overlook inconsistency as you do it in Luxury's case, then MJY still has the best ZvP on earth(=>AllStar Race Battle)
About Luxury playing "nothing like S-Class" against Leta I can only say that for me and many other people the series has nothing but shown that Luxury isn't able to take straight up games from an A/S-Class Terran. Don't get me wrong. The series was a testimony to his qualities as a player, like nerves, cheesy play and unorthodox strategies. But if I remember correctly he hasn't taken ONE straight up game from Leta in that series, which is mandatory imo if you want to be called S-Class.
I quite agree with the rest of the power rank though. Good job.
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I feel like fantasy 3-0 bisu should have propelled him up to 3rd place. But, your explanation is sufficient I suppose, even though fantasy did almost beat jaedong in the osl finals. Also, I would put skyhigh above hero. He took CJ to a victory over hwaseung and he did it against jaedong, against a toss on a toss favored map and against hiya in a match that he nearly lost. Skyhigh was absolutely excellent in the last proleague and his reverse all-kill alone should have cemented a higher spot for him, considering that it was the finals.
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Yay Jaedong! Number one again at last!
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glad to see skyhigh getting some recognition after that epic reverse AK
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Great to see Jaedong on his #1 spot as he deserves
One thing I disagree is when you said Luxury's ZvP > Jaedong's ZvP
Luxury is known to have weak ZvP. He makes up for this fact by going all-in strategies alot more often than Jaedong has. Hydra break, 5 pool, cheese? Yes.
The ONLY Zerg who can be said to have better ZvP than Jaedong is maybe July. Luxury doesn't even come close. Beating Jangbi's PvZ is not that great of a deal
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oh flash, how far you've dropped. and to the "dragons" not present in the power ranks anymore - shame on you guys.
thanks fakesteve.
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i wonder if there should be an anti power rank. like.. for those who are slumping
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On April 11 2009 01:03 29 fps wrote:
i wonder if there should be an anti power rank. like.. for those who are slumping
Rofl that'd be awesome I'd write it. I love bashing on Savior when it's justified by his play.
Is anyone else interested in this? I would devote the time to watch games and etc. if you are.
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YEAHHH JAEDONG AND LUXURY!!! I knew that Jaedong would be #1 at the Power Rank after his all kill and streak (I was assured when he won the OSL). Luxury would be at 2nd once he raped Jangbi at the MSL. Woot, season of the Zerg!
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pretty good power rank, pretty much agree with everything except for lux having best ZvP. July and Jaedong both have better ZvP IMO.
Sure Lux didn't have to only play s-class players in the MSL, but how often does someone actually have to do that?(I can only think of forgg beating JD and flash in arena MSL) Plus he did beat both leta and jangbi, how many players can do that?
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Nice PR. <3 by.hero and fantasy. ^^
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To everyone complaining about Lux "cheesing," my question to you is: really?
The game is not based on how you win -- it's great to have a super long drawn out lategame brawl, but when it comes down to "best player," it doesn't matter how much you like how they play. It's like complaining that Jaedong likes 2hatch muta too much and shouldn't be first for winning the OSL with it, IE: Retarded. Of course he should be first for winning the OSL and his overall performance, regardless of how much you like his playstyle.
Luxury is aggressive, and some people don't like that. They may prefer good muta control, or maybe a game where dark swarm is the deciding factor, but these are trivial preferences, not criteria for how powerful a player is on the current scene.
Aggressiveness, even bordering overly cheesey, doesn't mean shit about whether or not he is a top player. Flash was called the goddamn cheddar terran, but it didn't matter because he absolutely wrecked anyone in his path with that style for quite some time. Luxury is aggressive, maybe even a cheddar zerg, but he is good. Damn good. As a matter of fact, second only to Jaedong (The closest thing we will ever get to a bonjwa in modern times), even though he plays entirely different.
To put it simply, if he was second best and played the way you guys wanted (most likely like Jaedong, since everyone loves Jaedong games) he would just be called Jaedong-Lite. Instead, he's goddamn Luxury. Streaky, aggressive, entertaining, but overall, damn, damn, damn good, and one of the only two zergs I would call S-Class right now.
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On April 10 2009 22:42 Mooncat wrote:
Wtf? NaDa on 10?
Don't get me wrong, I love NaDa as much as the next person but to put him on rank 10 for ONE World Class Series? I don't know about that...
A big, big part of that is that his 'world class series' came in April 2009. His first tournament win came in June 2002, and his first game played was in February 2002. Depending how you look at it, he's been playing competitive SC for either slightly over or slightly under seven years. That he's able to continue to play and even defeat the best players in their given matchups so far after entering the scene is a testament to itself, and I totally agree with the reasoning for the 10-spot in a somewhat quiet month.
That's a bit of a wall o' text, but <3 NaDa. Thanks for the PR, FakeSteve!
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Luxury: current best ZvP?
July is a much better PvZ player and so is Jaedong.
If you want some minor ZvP detail (though that is only an indication not a prove),
July's ZvP: 2215.
Jaedong's ZvP: 2208
Luxury's ZvP: 2113
Other ZvP stats (last ZvP and all time ZvP)
July's last 10 ZvP: 8-2 (all time 68.6%)
Jaedong's last 10 ZvP: 6-4 (all time 65.31%)
Luxury's last 10 ZvP: 7-3 (all time 58.82%)
Sorry guys, I still doubt Savior until he builds FBH a sunken heart...
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On April 11 2009 00:52 AzureEye wrote:
Great to see Jaedong on his #1 spot as he deserves
One thing I disagree is when you said Luxury's ZvP > Jaedong's ZvP
Luxury is known to have weak ZvP. He makes up for this fact by going all-in strategies alot more often than Jaedong has. Hydra break, 5 pool, cheese? Yes.
The ONLY Zerg who can be said to have better ZvP than Jaedong is maybe July. Luxury doesn't even come close. Beating Jangbi's PvZ is not that great of a deal
Agree with this guy. Luxury is no where near close to be compared with Jaedong.
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On April 10 2009 20:00 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2009 19:30 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On April 10 2009 19:20 Plexa wrote:
Steve, if fantasy had won one more game in the OSL would he have been #1? Yes, but why are you asking that question? It doesn't make any sense. Maybe you could ask "If Fantasy had managed to block Jaedong's build a third time and won the series by outplaying Jaedong 3 times in a best of 5 OSL final" instead. Why on earth would you simplify it to "If Fantasy won one more game in the OSL"? The only way Fantasy would be #1 was if he won game 3, or at least didn't get totally run over in games 3 and 4. Jaedong found a timing on-the-fly to counter Fantasy, and Fantasy couldn't deal with it. That's essentially what the entire series boils down to, as well as that sick 2ling/drone vulture block. Fantasy is below Bisu and Luxury for the simple reason that this is a recurring theme in his games. He has wonderful snap decision making abilities in TvP, but it doesn't translate to his other matchups. Preparation is only half the battle, you know? I'm just not convinced that Luxury is better than fantasy is all. He pushed Jaedong, the best ZvT in the world without question, to within breaking point. He also trashed Luxury 2-1 losing on Medusa (Z>T map anyway) in the OSL. I'm also not convinced that Bisu is worse than Luxury; he pushes Jaedong to the very limit in GOM and he trashed July (ZvP god) and Yarnc in the group stages. Despite stumbling against by.hero, if Bisu and Luxury played 100 time on balanced maps i'd expect bisu to win more than luxury. =/ I feel that Luxury is too highly placed for what was really quite an easy MSL run. Jaedong/Flash/Bisu were all taken out relatively early on by freak happenings and the overall competition imo was weaker than the OSLs (hence why Jangbi/Luxury weren't semifinalists in the OSL). Regardless, I agree that Bisu should be over Fantasy though... those maps were the WORST possible maps for the series (all T>>P) and Bisu is the better player.
Oh come on don't blame the maps why Bisu lost . Stork made fantasy look like the newby that he really is , twise last OSL on chupung and what did Bisu do a retarded carrier build ? Bisu's PvT isn't that great compared to Stork and JangBi everyone who doesn't agree with this don't bother respoding because i wouldn't bother argueing it . Don't blame the maps please he had medusa in the map pool its only his own fault for being 3 - 0d not maps . Seriously not scouting a hidden third base can't be blamed on map imbalance nor playing average PvT in that series .
And Luxury's road wasn't easy maybe not as hard as Fantasy's but sure as hell wasn't easy .
Now on to the power rank :
I agree with the placements don't agree with :
As a fan of Stork's PvT i still think he would demolish Fantasy if they meet right now . Bisu played bad in my opinion fantasy played at a higher level and won .
Luxury being the best ZvP as others have mentioned nor is Jaedong . July and his prodigy by.hero have the best ZvP .
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I can't agree at all with this power rank.
its not even wrong
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The fanboy in me isn't convinced by your claim that JD has the second best ZvP in the world, but I'll go rewatch some games. I seriously doubt that Luxury could have beaten Bisu in the GOM bo5, but we'll never know.
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NADA! It's good to see him back in the PR 
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Guys, it's not the records that count, it's the games, and Luxury showed that he has a great game against protoss in that set against Jangbi.
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Actually that order looks pretty accurate IMO. I was mainly looking for Jaedong at the top, sKyHigh somewhere in there, and Luxury, Bisu, and Fantasy all in a row in some order or another.
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Some comments:
I also don't think that Luxury is the best ZvP right now. Jaedong's smarts (and his unbelievable mechanics) should not be underestimated. However, I completely agree about him being #2 on power rank. JD was the only person with a better month, period.
With Jangbi, I think the problem is 100% metagame. He doesn't seem to think about metagame at all. When you read his interviews, it's always "practice, practice, practice." Practice is incredibly important, but it won't carry you over any obstacle. A true star has something more, a burning desire, an incredible savviness, and an aura of invincibility that intimidates opponents into submission by sheer force of will. Jangbi doesn't have that.
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Nice Power rank.
When I watched Fantasy's two games against Jaedong I was thoroughly impressed. Too bad he didn't keep it up for one more game.
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On April 11 2009 03:45 scwizard wrote:
Guys, it's not the records that count, it's the games, and Luxury showed that he has a great game against protoss in that set against Jangbi.
They ARE talking about the games though, and in this I agree.
Luxury has nowhere near the same ZvP strength that Jaedong/July have. All Luxury has is aggression aggression aggression that if Jangbi had scouted/defended half decently against he would have been fine.
That shit wouldn't have worked against Bisu and probably not against Stork either considering how defensive he plays PvZ now.
I find July/Jaedong for and away more balanced. They have the ability and micro to be super aggressive when they want and even all in but they ARE capable of an actual standard ZvP game too. I haven't really seen Luxury capable of any long term ZvP play at all.
As for Luxury being number 2? I don't like him at all but any lower than 3 would have been a lie and I can agree with 2 just fine. Bisu got blasted out of the OSL.
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It's a good list.
At first I was surprised by by.hero and NaDa making the list. I didn't think they'd done enough to get on the list.
Then I tried to think of people that deserved to be in those spots more, and I couldn't find any.
It really feels like a lot of players didn't really play at all over the last month and a half. I think that'll change with tournies being in their early stages rather than late, and with the old PL format back.
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On April 11 2009 04:17 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2009 03:45 scwizard wrote:
Guys, it's not the records that count, it's the games, and Luxury showed that he has a great game against protoss in that set against Jangbi. They ARE talking about the games though, and in this I agree. Luxury has nowhere near the same ZvP strength that Jaedong/July have. All Luxury has is aggression aggression aggression that if Jangbi had scouted/defended half decently against he would have been fine. That shit wouldn't have worked against Bisu and probably not against Stork either considering how defensive he plays PvZ now. I find July/Jaedong for and away more balanced. They have the ability and micro to be super aggressive when they want and even all in but they ARE capable of an actual standard ZvP game too. I haven't really seen Luxury capable of any long term ZvP play at all. As for Luxury being number 2? I don't like him at all but any lower than 3 would have been a lie and I can agree with 2 just fine. Bisu got blasted out of the OSL.
His first match against Jangbi went to Hive Tech and he thoroughly beat him. Second round went to ultralisks in which he lost what was a fairly close game up until the storms. The next two rounds were standard Luxury super aggression.
Luxury is perfectly capable of playing a lategame. I think people are too stuck on his long past performance and are ignoring that he is no longer lost when it gets to hivetech.
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That's true, but I'd like to point out that Jangbi was really behind during the first game due to his forge placement and had to play catchup.
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I think that by using the arguement that bisu has played better overall despite the results, both luxury and fantasy would be below bisu.
If you count results as the heavier factor then both fantasy and luxury should be above bisu.
The key is to be consistant in the way you judge their rank.
I also think that Jaedong is actually better than luxury in zvp, making him the best zergplayer in all matchups, even better than july's zvp becuase of his crazy mechanics although july has better understanding of the matchup.
But this months placements 2-4 are extremely hard to judge. And I understand your points.
Good PR though, always interesting to read.
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Eh im in a bit of a hurry to get out the door but i strongly disagree with this rank i will post something more detailed when i get back.
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go nada! :D
4th msl title is up to u!
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back from the dead
you know, i really can't fault any of the logic. luxury's been exploiting zerg's early z>p advantage really well, way better than jaedong ever has. though his multitask isn't the same, and though he has a lot more holes in his knowledge of the matchup...i guess that may not matter because his style is just so much more efficient.
i guess the hard ranking doesn't even matter that much - we all pretty much agree how close lux/bisu/fantasy are right now
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On April 10 2009 18:58 Klive5ive wrote:
After considered thought:
1. Jaedong
2. Bisu
3. Fantasy
4. Luxury
Bisu goes higher because he also played an amazing best of 5 against Jaedong.
He went 6-2 in the WL.
He beat Best in the OSL.
Now although he did lose to Fantasy. They are teammates and PvT is his worst match-up. Before this game everyone was thinking a Bisu-Jaedong final was a dead-cert because Bisu was on fire.
He slipped up in that game, but I think overall he just pips Fantasy this month.
the 2-3 against jaedong was already counted last month.
his 6-2 in WL didnt matter squat because in the finals, he didnt let SKT advance one round. (unlike luxury, who finished off SKT, jaedong 4-0ing KTF helping both their teams advance farther)
He beat a slumping best (he hasnt won since february)
and the 2-3 against jaedong... it should not be ranked higher than osl semis against fantasy... it was an event that isnt kespa sanctioned, and i am sure niether player practiced for it like they would for OSL finals if bisu didnt' fuck up and they met to duke it out.
luxury carried his team past SKT with the help of hoejja, he won the MSL and played monstrous in the games he won.
easy luxury > bisu
i believe fantasy is > bisu on this rank, because in thsi month, he did perform better. overall he is a worse player than bisu currently but i thought power rank was about performing right now. otherwise nada would be#1 for the rest of time.
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About Luxury being #2 though. It may turn out that the only reason he seemed capable of playing late game against JangBi was because he prepared for that match specifically. If he plays like an ass in proleague (which wouldn't be anything new) and shows that he doesn't actually have a late game, then he doesn't deserve that rank.
I don't expect that though, I'm expecting Luxury to live up to his #2.
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yay power rank
i haven't been able to follow progaming much recently so reading this is a nice review to keep me up to date on who's on top
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This PR is dumb and the placements are gona change every month dramatically. Players that dont get to play games have no chance on your list like Kal and yarnc.
Luxury should be 4th or 5th with fantasy above him based on performance, and jaedongs zvp is better. Skyhigh should'nt be top 10 just because he beat up some top 20-150 kespa players. (hes losing to them now-see skyhigh versus rage)
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On April 10 2009 18:58 Klive5ive wrote:
1. Jaedong
2. Bisu
3. Fantasy
4. Luxury
This. Maybe I think about the Power Rank more like Manifesto, but really, despite the loss to Fantasy Bisu is still the second scariest player on Earth by far. I would still put him as a heavy favorite against anyone in the world other than Jaedong in a Bo5. The all-kill of the terran lineup showed conclusively the loss to fantasy was a fluke teammate battle, and Bisu is still a monster.
As for Lux, I don't want to trash on his gold too much; he's certainly had one coming and very much deserves top 4. But thrashing Zero with the world's second best ZvZ and beating Jangbi in the finals isn't really that impressive. For all his impressive skill, Jangbi just doesn't have what it takes to be a champion in my opinion, and won't until he realizes that the mental game is far more important than he's giving it credit for. I honestly didn't even bother watching the MSL finals, just checked the results the next morning and went "yeah, thought so." The current poll pretty much validated that decision for me. Overall, I think fantasy just has a little more spark right now, and the series victory nudges him above Lux in my opinion, but these two are very close right now.
Also very happy to see Nada in the rank again. I'm actually really hoping to see him qualify for the next OSL and run away with it; it would be fitting for him to become the first (only?) player with 4 OSL wins.
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On April 11 2009 09:52 Macavenger wrote:This. Maybe I think about the Power Rank more like Manifesto, but really, despite the loss to Fantasy Bisu is still the second scariest player on Earth by far. I would still put him as a heavy favorite against anyone in the world other than Jaedong in a Bo5. The all-kill of the terran lineup showed conclusively the loss to fantasy was a fluke teammate battle, and Bisu is still a monster. As for Lux, I don't want to trash on his gold too much; he's certainly had one coming and very much deserves top 4. But thrashing Zero with the world's second best ZvZ and beating Jangbi in the finals isn't really that impressive. For all his impressive skill, Jangbi just doesn't have what it takes to be a champion in my opinion, and won't until he realizes that the mental game is far more important than he's giving it credit for. I honestly didn't even bother watching the MSL finals, just checked the results the next morning and went "yeah, thought so." The current poll pretty much validated that decision for me. Overall, I think fantasy just has a little more spark right now, and the series victory nudges him above Lux in my opinion, but these two are very close right now. Also very happy to see Nada in the rank again. I'm actually really hoping to see him qualify for the next OSL and run away with it; it would be fitting for him to become the first (only?) player with 4 OSL wins.
Those MSLs, so easy to get, let me tell you.
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wohooo, my fantasy team has 4 out of the top 10 players!
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On April 11 2009 11:41 TwoToneTerran wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 11 2009 09:52 Macavenger wrote:This. Maybe I think about the Power Rank more like Manifesto, but really, despite the loss to Fantasy Bisu is still the second scariest player on Earth by far. I would still put him as a heavy favorite against anyone in the world other than Jaedong in a Bo5. The all-kill of the terran lineup showed conclusively the loss to fantasy was a fluke teammate battle, and Bisu is still a monster. As for Lux, I don't want to trash on his gold too much; he's certainly had one coming and very much deserves top 4. But thrashing Zero with the world's second best ZvZ and beating Jangbi in the finals isn't really that impressive. For all his impressive skill, Jangbi just doesn't have what it takes to be a champion in my opinion, and won't until he realizes that the mental game is far more important than he's giving it credit for. I honestly didn't even bother watching the MSL finals, just checked the results the next morning and went "yeah, thought so." The current poll pretty much validated that decision for me. Overall, I think fantasy just has a little more spark right now, and the series victory nudges him above Lux in my opinion, but these two are very close right now. Also very happy to see Nada in the rank again. I'm actually really hoping to see him qualify for the next OSL and run away with it; it would be fitting for him to become the first (only?) player with 4 OSL wins. Those MSLs, so easy to get, let me tell you.
Beating Bisu 3-0, walk in the park
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Jd should off-race as P against lux and beat the crap outta him to show that lux's ZvP is weak compared to his ><
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 Bisu should be in second and  Luxury in third, other then that no qualms, i am a big Luxury fan but honestly Bisu is better than luxury, and has been playing better as well.
 iloveoov is slowly but surely creating a monster, but overall i think Flash is still quite a ways ahead of fantasy, but that might change, and considering this Last month ( and 10 days... j/k ^ ^) fantasy deserves all the credit he has received.
Have the dark paths of the night life corrupted Flash, maybe that is why Rekrul ( i think he is in Korea again, no?) went back.
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The Ranking is nice, wouldn't change too much. Your reasoning for putting Bisu over Fantasy convinces me, wasn't sure before myself.
The write-up however does nothing for me, I got bored while reading it. I guess you just wanted to get it over with.
But that's just me and I am wrong all the time.
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Finally someone else recognizes that Luxury's ZvP is amazing. Screw the haters. ^_^
On April 11 2009 08:28 scwizard wrote:
About Luxury being #2 though. It may turn out that the only reason he seemed capable of playing late game against JangBi was because he prepared for that match specifically. If he plays like an ass in proleague (which wouldn't be anything new) and shows that he doesn't actually have a late game, then he doesn't deserve that rank.
I don't expect that though, I'm expecting Luxury to live up to his #2.
His late game ZvP is amazing. If you mean ZvT, that could be correct, it's clearly his worst MU.
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I don't get why people always argue about the PR, it is just his opinion, it doesn't change anything.
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On April 11 2009 21:02 Shikyo wrote:Finally someone else recognizes that Luxury's ZvP is amazing. Screw the haters. ^_^ Show nested quote +On April 11 2009 08:28 scwizard wrote:
About Luxury being #2 though. It may turn out that the only reason he seemed capable of playing late game against JangBi was because he prepared for that match specifically. If he plays like an ass in proleague (which wouldn't be anything new) and shows that he doesn't actually have a late game, then he doesn't deserve that rank.
I don't expect that though, I'm expecting Luxury to live up to his #2. His late game ZvP is amazing. If you mean ZvT, that could be correct, it's clearly his worst MU.
nice flamebait post, just dont bite on it people, he's doing it intentionally probably (hopefuly)
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On April 11 2009 21:03 DM20 wrote:
I don't get why people always argue about the PR, it is just his opinion, it doesn't change anything.
people are givin their opinion, and reflect on what the PR poster says. That's the idea, else the PR's forum section would be disabled
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9070 Posts
Bisu will clean house as soon as MSL begins. He will win his 4th badge this season
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Looks pretty accurate to me. Jaedong is definitely at the top and the other players are within plus or minus one rank of each other.
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jaedong will win his golden mouse next osl
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Looks good, except that Light should be in instead of by.hero
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Yes, Zergs dominating the power rank! for the Swarm!
Now in order for my dreams to come true we need only to see July, FakeYellow and by.hero up there too. (maybe + Crazy.Hydra)
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I hate to repeat what's been said so many times but I also have to agree that it's a bit silly to call Lux's ZvP best in the world. Not to downplay his MSL win but Jangbi played just as bad as Lux played good. Jaedong and July bother have better (and much more consistent) ZvP, IMO.
I don't argue his #2 rank though. He is a Starleague winner and he deserves it.
I like your explanation of Bisu > Fantasy and agree. Team battles often conclude as such, and Bisu is certainly the better player in my eyes. Looking forward to his performance in the new season/round 4, I feel like I haven't seen him play in forever.
Fantasy played a great final against JD. But I still can't help but wonder... Bisu vs. JD... The final that could have been. :'(
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On April 12 2009 04:42 erin[go]bragh wrote:
I hate to repeat what's been said so many times but I also have to agree that it's a bit silly to call Lux's ZvP best in the world. Not to downplay his MSL win but Jangbi played just as bad as Lux played good. Jaedong and July bother have better (and much more consistent) ZvP, IMO.
I don't argue his #2 rank though. He is a Starleague winner and he deserves it.
I like your explanation of Bisu > Fantasy and agree. Team battles often conclude as such, and Bisu is certainly the better player in my eyes. Looking forward to his performance in the new season/round 4, I feel like I haven't seen him play in forever.
Fantasy played a great final against JD. But I still can't help but wonder... Bisu vs. JD... The final that could have been. :'(
it is bisu's own fault. he dropped the ball against fantasy hardcore.
newayz, i really don't think lux's z v p is better than jaedong. when i think z v p, july, savior in his prime and jaedong... but now z v p? is lux's better than by.heros? better than jaedongs? better than july? probably not.
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I agree with all of the rankings but fakesteve is 100% wrong about luxurys zvp. It is still notches below julyzerg. His level of play was not nearly as high jaedongs has been at anytime during the last year, even when jaedong lost to tempest ... Luxury had the sickest map pool of all time ZvP against a finals choker that doesn't compare to jaedong consistently (read all the time) destroying great protoss. Jaedong beat bisu is alot more meaningfull then luxury beating jangbi.
Other then that I feel bad for fantasy, the two players above him he demolished in convincing fashion AND was two or maybe three seconds away from winning the osl. That is rough but the fact is luxury and bisu are better then him. Poor guy.
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" SkyHigh is notoriously a player that has significant nerve problems while playing on TV "
WTF????? He is as cold as ice. Did you watch his last all-kill? I can't think of another situation on which a player would be under more pressure.
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First power rank I agree 100% =D
Nice writeup aswell!
cheers!
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JD will definitely get the Golden Mouse now. It's his! Rawr!!!
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+ Show Spoiler +the best ZvP in the world just showed how dominant he is against the excelent protoss player called Pure
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I have faith enough in fakesteve to not make a comment on Luxury's remarkable performance; undoubtedly I would lose both the argument and my dignity and I admonish all of you to do the same.
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ah a great PR. I like the 2 Z's in the top 2, but i have a feeling both Fantasy and Bisu could take down Luxury. Even with a strong MSL win over Jangbi, Lux's play feels too inconsistant.
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Best zerg v protoss in the world strat: Build 8+ spore colonies instead of sunkens and get run over by like 15 goons and some storms on 5 base.
It's almost like as soon as Steve said something, Lux had a sudden lapse of retard.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Luxury does that all the time, especially in ProLeague. He has always and will always up and play like a moron for a couple days out of nowhere
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On April 12 2009 15:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Best zerg v protoss in the world strat: Build 8+ spore colonies instead of sunkens and get run over by like 15 goons and some storms on 5 base.
It's almost like as soon as Steve said something, Lux had a sudden lapse of retard.
LOL.
I am disappointed in Lux though. Thought he would do much better that, especially the fact that he was in such a strong position. He let all his morphing lurkers melt to storm when he could have just simply cancelled it.
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Not my favorite power rank.
Jaedong goes in all slots... or at the very least, the first five.
edit: He played 90% of the games that mattered anyway...
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Luxury's decision making vs. Pure was terrible. Pure did nothing but fly around with sairs and a pick off a few stray overlords, yet when he came out Luxury got flattened. The first thing considered and ruled out in the neo-gen protoss era on the zerg side was responding with sunk/spore turtling every base. Protoss macro is too good to rape yourself with 5 early spores and unnecessary sunks on only 4 base. Honestly if that was how he intended to play out a long game, Luxury would have been better off trying another 2 hatch hydra break or 5 pool.
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I like how Nada is in the PR.
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Nova the cool thing that is making his super turtle zvp at least always viable is because he just might 4 pool/5pool/2hat hydra/2 hat muta / 3 hat muta/ling/ 3 hat ling/ 5 hat hydra ect unlike jaedong who allows alot of greedy toss (stork/bisu) to go unpunished luxury is the opposite, he wants to punish protoss not play better =).
Thats at least how I view his recent 4 base -> direct hive type play.
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On April 12 2009 17:33 AttackZerg wrote:
Nova the cool thing that is making his super turtle zvp at least always viable is because he just might 4 pool/5pool/2hat hydra/2 hat muta / 3 hat muta/ling/ 3 hat ling/ 5 hat hydra ect unlike jaedong who allows alot of greedy toss (stork/bisu) to go unpunished luxury is the opposite, he wants to punish protoss not play better =).
Thats at least how I view his recent 4 base -> direct hive type play.
yes that's the only + to lux, however JD also cheeses from time to time..but that's just too rarely.
However JD's ZvP is miles ahead of Luxury's. And I see that FS didn`t argue with any of us who said that ^^
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No thing against this rating, but why on earth does it always have to be "MONSTER", "BONJWA", "UNSTOPPABLE" etc when the next month it's someone else who those terms hold true for? No offense, but it's kind of ridiculous.
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I think Jaedong is Jesus. 2-4 aren't important.
It's funny how Fakesteve types like Yoda. "...because ZvZ does not a champion make..."
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On April 12 2009 23:08 kernl wrote:
No thing against this rating, but why on earth does it always have to be "MONSTER", "BONJWA", "UNSTOPPABLE" etc when the next month it's someone else who those terms hold true for? No offense, but it's kind of ridiculous.
i dont see any1 else next month on the top.
Bisu also dominated more than 2 months, etc...
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On April 13 2009 00:58 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2009 23:08 kernl wrote:
No thing against this rating, but why on earth does it always have to be "MONSTER", "BONJWA", "UNSTOPPABLE" etc when the next month it's someone else who those terms hold true for? No offense, but it's kind of ridiculous. i dont see any1 else next month on the top. Bisu also dominated more than 2 months, etc...
I agree that Jaedong is the best player right now, and that Bisu was the preceding months, but terms like "domination" etc are just exaggerated. There is no such thing in starcraft right now. They dropped games to lots of players, and the margin by which they are better than others is way smaller than the striking wording conveys.
Again, I like the PR and I really do agree with it most of the time, I just sometimes don't like the writing style. :/
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On April 13 2009 02:37 kernl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2009 00:58 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 12 2009 23:08 kernl wrote:
No thing against this rating, but why on earth does it always have to be "MONSTER", "BONJWA", "UNSTOPPABLE" etc when the next month it's someone else who those terms hold true for? No offense, but it's kind of ridiculous. i dont see any1 else next month on the top. Bisu also dominated more than 2 months, etc... I agree that Jaedong is the best player right now, and that Bisu was the preceding months, but terms like "domination" etc are just exaggerated. There is no such thing in starcraft right now. They dropped games to lots of players, and the margin by which they are better than others is way smaller than the striking wording conveys. Again, I like the PR and I really do agree with it most of the time, I just sometimes don't like the writing style. :/
well, that's just you, coz I like it
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Belgium9945 Posts
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On April 12 2009 23:08 kernl wrote:
No thing against this rating, but why on earth does it always have to be "MONSTER", "BONJWA", "UNSTOPPABLE" etc when the next month it's someone else who those terms hold true for? No offense, but it's kind of ridiculous.
On April 13 2009 02:37 kernl wrote:
I agree that Jaedong is the best player right now, and that Bisu was the preceding months, but terms like "domination" etc are just exaggerated. There is no such thing in starcraft right now. They dropped games to lots of players, and the margin by which they are better than others is way smaller than the striking wording conveys.
What other word would you use to describe a player who is over 80% lifetime in a matchup that has often been described as 'rock paper scissors'? I think "domination" is the right word for Jaedong's current play vs. players like Yarnc - just look at some of Jaedong's one-year statistics and say that 70% winrate across the board isn't dominant play. This is kinda fanboyish, but the numbers Jaedong has, both now and lifetime, are absolutely ridiculous
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United States17042 Posts
great to see nada at the number 10 spot.
Jaedong deserves to be at the top of course, because his performance in games 3-5 of the osl were...dominating, to say the least.
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i dont get why luxury bo5 with leta is mentioned in this PR and last months PR.
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rank seems pretty good IMO
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Luxury, by.Hero, Nada, Stork overrated
Flash wayyyy underrated
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On April 13 2009 06:35 piratebay wrote:
i dont get why luxury bo5 with leta is mentioned in this PR and last months PR.
Just a point of reference. I feel like if I don't say Luxury plays really dumb from time to time that people will come in here after he drops a single game in PL and say "Y U PUT HIM #2?? HE LOS TO DIS CHOBO"
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I'm a fanboy but I think July, sAviOr and Jaedong all have alot better ZvP than Luxury. If you'd go by which player other players would like to play the least/is most afraid of, then the list should probably look more like:
1 Jaedong
2 Bisu
3 Flash
4 Fantasy
5 Stork
6 Jangbi
7 Luxury
8 Skyhigh
9 -
Going by results does warrant Luxury a high spot though, so it's a good PR.
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I agree with the PR, and i'm glad to see luxury's really tenacious zvp style being recognized.
my heart breaks for flash at 7.. even though he deserves it.
and fantasy is sooo good.
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Doesn't Jaedong's new picture looks like he is looking down on people?
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On April 13 2009 12:58 MuffinDude wrote:
Doesn't Jaedong's new picture looks like he is looking down on people?
Fits the Tyrant Zerg moniker perfectly, IMO. Current pic captures how amazing he played for the past month, destroying people left and right.
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". This guy right here is the best ZvP player on earth, a title held by Jaedong for the last year and a half. "
Oh, FS, do you not consider July's ZvP to be better than Jaedong's during his minislump last year?
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Nice power rank. I don't follow pro-gaming superclosely but those WL finals were intense. Don't know much about by.hero and why is is above skyhigh and nada but ok!
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nada isnt 10th best srry.
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United States3824 Posts
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On April 13 2009 13:43 Jonoman92 wrote:
Nice power rank. I don't follow pro-gaming superclosely but those WL finals were intense. Don't know much about by.hero and why is is above skyhigh and nada but ok!
Winning 3 times in a row against Bisu, beating his teammate Hwasin, taking games off Fantasy and Leta and making semifinals in his first OSL.
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Kinda just sounds like a bunch of fans are upset their favorite player isn't getting the "best zerg player in every MU domination!" recognition they are used to him getting. Luxury showed great ZvP performance in the last month, and plays the matchup in a strong style that is his own. Sometimes his game sense seems off, and other times it's incredible. Just be happy another Zerg player is preforming well and quit taking it like some kind of insult to JD
Lux is a very streaky/inconsistently brilliant player and I can't get over everyone's band wagoning about his "horrible ZvP; lol lost to spear! fakesteve so wrong." Just kind of funny if you ask me.
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On April 12 2009 07:20 AttackZerg wrote:
I agree with all of the rankings but fakesteve is 100% wrong about luxurys zvp. It is still notches below julyzerg. His level of play was not nearly as high jaedongs has been at anytime during the last year, even when jaedong lost to tempest ... Luxury had the sickest map pool of all time ZvP against a finals choker that doesn't compare to jaedong consistently (read all the time) destroying great protoss. Jaedong beat bisu is alot more meaningfull then luxury beating jangbi.
Other then that I feel bad for fantasy, the two players above him he demolished in convincing fashion AND was two or maybe three seconds away from winning the osl. That is rough but the fact is luxury and bisu are better then him. Poor guy.
agree with you, jaedongs zvp is far better than luxurys and julys zvp probably is better too (he has a vastly different style zvp than JD and lux though, so its kinda hard to compare imo).
I think one misconception led to another, steve overrated jangbis pvz before the finals heavily and therefore drew the conclusion that luxurys zvp must be godly since he destroyed jangbi with relative ease.
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On April 12 2009 09:15 Furia wrote:
" SkyHigh is notoriously a player that has significant nerve problems while playing on TV "
WTF????? He is as cold as ice. Did you watch his last all-kill? I can't think of another situation on which a player would be under more pressure.
He used to have a problem with his nerves in broadcast games. iirc he tore through the offline msl qualifications a few msls back and than lost real badly in survivor(broadcasted game). Nice to hear he got rid of it.
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Like others said, fine PR except the part of "luxury has the best zvp".
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My two cents:
* I think you overrate Luxury's ZvP. It's still pretty shaky imo and I'd like to see some greater consistency in his perfomances before you can label him 'best ZvPer'. I'd take Jaedong to ZvP for my life any day over Lux.
* You overrate Fantasy too imo (I guess you need someone to cheer for given Sea's condition  ). If he's given adequate time to prepare, he capable of executing strong, tricky builds to a high degree, but as his form in the WL suggests, his pure BW talent is still behind that of the S-Class gamers (particularly his TvZ which remains unconvincing). By this I mean, when he plays random opponents without preparation, he looks like just another terran.
* I think Skyhigh deserves a higher rank. He's been really impressive all season for CJ and has consistently been the backbone of their strong results culminating in his dominant WL finals display. Of the terrans around right now, I'd put him at #2 behind Flash but just ahead of Fantasy.
* Jaedong is scary good, but I wonder if he'll be able to maintain the rage or drop off like the greats before him who seem to have conquered the peak.
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Luxury is not even close to JD level. Fantasy power rank is more like it. Bias is running amok up in here.
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Any CBNC for Hoejja? Or is he too rookie still? I guess he hasn't shown anything that great, but it would be cool to hear your thoughts Steve
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Yes Luxury plays like a total dumbass from time to time, but he's only showed brilliance in the final in ZvP (against a lackluster jangbi, and has been untested otherwise). It's too early to say he has the best ZvP; for example, historically people have been able to excuse sAviOr's and Nada's (bonjwa era) poor PL performance simply because they showed unquestioned dominance in other fields. If Luxury played more than one set against someone who wasn't playing in questionable form, "having the best PvZ" would be realistic. But Jangbi, while having a good PvZ record, has not ever been tested against Jaedong or even sAviOr (having his wins primarily from players like Yarnc and calm). Basing "Best PvZ" on one set, however important the set may be, with a not-superbly-performing Jangbi is akin to saying that Hero has the best PvZ for killing Bisu 2-0; both are based on one important set with a top gamer, and ONLY one set. It's just not realistic, especially when other results besides one Bo5 don't back up the "best PvZ" claim (besides, possibly, the All kill from who knows how long ago).
Further, I'd personally think that Fantasy ought to be ranked above Bisu, for this month only. Who would I predict to be stronger next Starleague season? Bisu, almost doubtlessly. But lets look at this quickly.
Fantasy: vs Z, OSL Finals (top of the world): 2-3 Jaedong. 2-1 Luxury. Sure people will argue the level of play is different. But Fantasy completely destroyed Jaedong sets 1 and 2, and Jaedong just had no answers to Fantasy's mech/biomech, in a final no less. I'm not willing to say he played that well against luxury more than Luxury just dropping the ball, but 2-1 against someone of Luxury's caliber is still impressive, and in the semifinals no less. None of it cheese. Yes he doesn't do that well in Proleague, especially vs Zerg, but the player two slots above him seems to be exempt from that rule. Yes his bionic is still weak, but he plays to his strengths, just like any good gamer, and he played it exceptionally well. I couldn't see any zerg not going 0-5 in that set, had the set been played that long. The ability to mix it up, if anything, outweighs brute mechanics: tons of high level gamers are unable to adapt to a change in standard (free vs great in PL, Luxury vs Leta in group stages, luxury vs fantasy OSL set 3, etc.) Yes next month he will probably get owned again versus Zerg from time to time, but again, this does not seem to trouble the gamer 2 slots above him at the moment.
Bisu: vs Z: 2-3 Jaedong. GomTV invitational, good amount of money involved, but still far removed from the caliber of the OSL finals. That's got to count for less than a great OSL finals. Great play, top notch decision making, but unfortunately its showing signs of mortality (not that Fantasy's is any better), seeing as he's dropped games to players like Bisu, Hero, and Zero, in places where it really counted. He probably is better than Fantasy vs Zerg, and will almost definitely win more proleague games against zerg in the coming season, but he didn't pull it out where it counted, not this month or months prior, where Fantasy did, and this merits Fantasy's rank above him in this matchup, if only for one month.
Fantasy v P: probably Fantasy's strongest matchup, and 3-0 Bisu. In the OSL semifinals no less. Come on, the most prestigious tournaments, no excuses. 3-0 is 3-0, against Bisu no less. Bisu didn't play any worse than he normally has. Fantasy pulled out his S game, and it was too much for Bisu.
Bisu v T: Before this set, Bisu would definitely be the favorite, but Bisu didn't lapse in his dominant PvT form, he played the same and was simply outplayed in a place where it counted. Bisu would primarily be counted as an excellent player vs T following his win against Flash in the non-Kespa sanctioned GomTV Classic, a match Flash stated he did not practice much for. The same Flash that Fantasy is doing quite well against in recent memory.
He did dismantle the terrans in racewars, and looked ridiculous while at it, but if he can't beat players where it matters, it's not going to come to much.
Fantasy vT Very skilled at TvT, 2-0 vs Flash this year, although granted the most recent one was a BO win back to front. His play versus Leta in the OSL Ro16 was similarly dominant, and Leta wasn't doing bad insomuch as he started playing against the top opponents.
Bisu v P: Better than Fantasy's v T almost unquestionably, but nothing happened here in the past month. All in all, for one month, the OSL finalist, in my opinion, deserves a better rank than Bisu for this month, as he's been able to dismantle all three gamers above him (if only Jaedong in two sets) in their strong matchups.
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On April 14 2009 12:50 Vasoline73 wrote:
Any CBNC for Hoejja? Or is he too rookie still? I guess he hasn't shown anything that great, but it would be cool to hear your thoughts Steve
i think he has potential, but cheesing Bisu isnt enough...
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On April 14 2009 15:41 SerpentFlame wrote:
but he's only showed brilliance in the final in ZvP
like suiciding a shittone of lings for nothing when the crack upgrade kikcs in (game 2)?
And i didnt saw his briliance in the first game when Jangbi made 2 mistakes which B level porgamers dont (forge misplacing, sending his main army willingly into an obviously unbreakable defence position). Game 3, with 7 lings in Jangbi's base couldnt kill any probes till the zealot came out when he was forced to attack, and killed like 2, JB lost miniing time ofc. Than Jangbi gone 2 stargates. i dont think there are any progamers who would lose when they got 7 lings in the opponents base + the toss goes 2 stargate against their mass-hydra.
He played well, made just a few mistakes, but almost nothing brilliant
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Games Luxury gets destroyed by nonstandard play:
Luxury vs Leta (on Destination from earlier and Neo Harmony in the SL Bo5), Luxury vs Fantasy (game 3 especially), Luxury vs BeSt (games 3 and 4) last OSL and the zealot-counter-attack-vs-mutalisks Proleague game.
Games Luxury destroys someone with nonstandard (not stupid, just unconventional, and stock standard cheeses don't count) play: N/A
Fortunately for Luxury, Jangbi plays nothing outside of stock standard in PvZ
Also, I know that Luxury can be really inconsistent sometimes, but does he really deserve number 2 because he is? Losing to Pure, WHEN his team is down 0-2 and his team needs the victory so flash can jump out and epic rape, is not PR material, especially because the Proleague has a fair deal of importance to it, more so than the GOM even. Losing to NBS in a similar fashion is also unspectacular, in the WL top 3 even more so. Dropping games sometimes is fine, but doing so at the alarming frequency Luxury is, is just not number 2 material. Being a team player is important too :<
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On April 14 2009 15:54 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2009 15:41 SerpentFlame wrote:
but he's only showed brilliance in the final in ZvP like suiciding a shittone of lings for nothing when the crack upgrade kikcs in (game 2)? And i didnt saw his briliance in the first game when Jangbi made 2 mistakes which B level porgamers dont (forge misplacing, sending his main army willingly into an obviously unbreakable defence position). Game 3, with 7 lings in Jangbi's base couldnt kill any probes till the zealot came out when he was forced to attack, and killed like 2, JB lost miniing time ofc. Than Jangbi gone 2 stargates. i dont think there are any progamers who would lose when they got 7 lings in the opponents base + the toss goes 2 stargate against their mass-hydra. He played well, made just a few mistakes, but almost nothing brilliant
well there you go
+ I haven`t seen Luxury play in any game like JD did in many vs Bisu ( bluestorm, destination, colloseum)
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This list seems decent. The only problem I have with it is Luxury being #2. I admit he is a good player but his recent performance has been below what it needs to be to be ahead of Bisu. Sure Bisu got rolled by fantasy but that was it. Bisu has played extremely well outside of that while Lux hasn't really proved himself past winning an MSL. His play outside the MSL has been bad. From what we can take from the one game Bisu has played since losing to Fantasy is that he still has that fire in him and could possibly take another Starlegue while Luxury looks like a one time deal.
Other wise this list looks fine to me, keep up the good work
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On April 14 2009 16:18 SerpentFlame wrote:
Also, I know that Luxury can be really inconsistent sometimes, but does he really deserve number 2 because he is? Losing to Pure, WHEN his team is down 0-2 and his team needs the victory so flash can jump out and epic rape, is not PR material, especially because the Proleague has a fair deal of importance to it, more so than the GOM even. Losing to NBS in a similar fashion is also unspectacular, in the WL top 3 even more so. Dropping games sometimes is fine, but doing so at the alarming frequency Luxury is, is just not number 2 material. Being a team player is important too :<
I belive it's not inconsistency, he actually seemed pretty consistent to me. Usually playing like shit when his team needed him and usually playing really good when in mattered only for him.
I agree with you, Luxury will never be a serious PR material for me until he starts to play more for his team and less for himself. Like Flash or Jaedong do...
(and this is coming from a former big Luxury fan)
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Ok im going to list some complaints i have with this list:
1. Luxury having the best zvp in the world? Hes Park "Chance" Soo in a straightup game most of the time he gets roflestomped. A year ago he was known for his aweful zvp and because he beat one toss in a series now its godlike. Looking at it from a 15 game perspective july/jaedong both have far superior records. Hell his record is one win better then Calm.
2. Why on earth is nada at 10?! What about Leta/Hiya/Calm/manyothers? Nada narrowly lost to jangbi besides that what has he done to earn ranking. He didnt even win I know he played great but I wouldn't put money on him against any of the players I listed. Not to mention hes not getting played in the pro league roster not a good sign for his recovery.
3. How is Stork still so high he got roflstomped by Jangbi and has been surviving off aggressive builds/cheese lately. His record is also looking terrible.
4. Skyhigh did awesome against lecaf ok cool what else has he done? Even when he beat oz you have to remember JD had a failed 5 pool and their 2 tosses are utter dogshit (spear/young). The only impressive win that night was against Hiya.
5. WHERE THE HELL IS LETA
6. Fantasy is nowhere near the best terran on earth flash/leta both eons better. He survives off creative builds not superior play.
7. Flash should be in the CBNC I know hes awesome but he sucked ass this month. Rememeber when July won the osl and got 4th rank then did nothing for a month and dropped off the rank entirely. Why is this situation any different in his last 12 hes 4 wins 8 losses hes doing far worse then july was when he was stripped of rank entirely. Before you went solely based off of who did what in the month but now you rank based on past performance as well. Flash has done nothing this month and has no business on the rank.
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On April 15 2009 06:15 Kuja900 wrote:
2. Why on earth is nada at 10?! What about Leta/Hiya/Calm/manyothers?
Hiya and Calm have never done anything in an individual league, and never brought an S class game out this month. Nada meanwhile played one of the best sets in Starcraft history where it counted, against the toughest opponent he could've faced into today's starleagues. Calm played 4 games and lost to the mediocre piano and canata. Hiya is closer, going 6-3 against reasonable opponents (including jangbi), but still has never gotten even close to an individual league. (Remember that disaster vs Shuttle in the prelim stages?)
On April 15 2009 06:15 Kuja900 wrote:
5. WHERE THE HELL IS LETA
He played 3 games in March, right after getting knocked out of both Starleagues. One of his wins was against firefist, and the other was against Luxury when Luxury decided to get nothing but mutalisks way after science vessel tech hit (no hive, lurkertech but only 5-ish lurkers). His loss was to the below mentioned Flash.
On April 15 2009 06:15 Kuja900 wrote:
7. Flash should be in the CNBC I know hes awesome but he sucked ass this month. Rememeber when July won the osl and got 4th rank then did nothing for a month and dropped off the rank entirely. Why is this situation any different in his last 12 hes 4 wins 8 losses hes doing far worse then july was when he was stripped of rank entirely. Before you went solely based off of who did what in the month but now you rank based on past performance as well. Flash has done nothing this month and has no business on the rank.
Flash is a much more consistent player than Leta, proven against the very best of opponents, has played and won more games than Leta in March, and has beaten Leta in March as well, and has carried his team pretty much all the way to the Winner League finals before getting beaten in a great game by stim-packed Jaedong. Not only that, but Flash played much better in those games as well. Your claim that Flash deserves CBNC while simultaneously claiming Leta should be on the Power Rank makes zero sense. Flash might've "done nothing", but Leta's done less.
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Ok im going to list some complaints i have with your post:
On April 15 2009 06:15 Kuja900 wrote:
Ok im going to list some complaints i have with this list:
1. Luxury having the best zvp in the world? Hes Park "Chance" Soo in a straightup game most of the time he gets roflestomped. A year ago he was known for his aweful zvp and because he beat one toss in a series now its godlike. Looking at it from a 15 game perspective july/jaedong both have far superior records. Hell his record is one win better then Calm.
At the time of the PR, past 15 games vs. Toss according to TLPD:
Luxury: 12-3
July: 12-3
Jaedong: 10-5
Calm: 9-6
Not necessarily disagreeing with you about Luxury not being as good as JD and July at the matchup, but check your facts.
On April 15 2009 06:15 Kuja900 wrote:
2. Why on earth is nada at 10?! What about Leta/Hiya/Calm/manyothers? Nada narrowly lost to jangbi besides that what has he done to earn ranking. He didnt even win I know he played great but I wouldn't put money on him against any of the players I listed. Not to mention hes not getting played in the pro league roster not a good sign for his recovery.
This is gonna keep coming up so I'm going to bold it for you:
MARCH WAS A SLOW MONTH, NOT MUCH HAPPENED IN MARCH
between the March and April PRs,
Leta played 3 games total, all in one day in the proleague and went 2-1.
HiYa played 9 games total, all in proleague and went 6-3 (probably deserves mention)
Calm played 4 games total, all in proleague and went 2-2
NaDa's set with JangBi had some pretty inspiring play. While you're free to dispute whether he should be 10, it should be no surprise that in a slow month, 1 truly amazing Bo5 is all it took to sneak in at 10.
On April 15 2009 06:15 Kuja900 wrote:
3. How is Stork still so high he got roflstomped by Jangbi and has been surviving off aggressive builds/cheese lately. His record is also looking terrible.
I honestly completely agree with this, lol.
On April 15 2009 06:15 Kuja900 wrote:
4. Skyhigh did awesome against lecaf ok cool what else has he done? Even when he beat oz you have to remember JD had a failed 5 pool and their 2 tosses are utter dogshit (spear/young). The only impressive win that night was against Hiya.
March was a slow month, honestly, his 5-0 in proleague in March, including a reverse all kill in the playoff finals is enough that if I were in charge of the PRs, he'd be 6. So little happened that regardless of the circumstances, overcoming your stage fright to pull your team out of the abyss and onto the podium is better than just about anything else than happened in March.
On April 15 2009 06:15 Kuja900 wrote:
5. WHERE THE HELL IS LETA
playing 3 games and watching the playoffs
slow month, remember?
On April 15 2009 06:15 Kuja900 wrote:
6. Fantasy is nowhere near the best terran on earth flash/leta both eons better. He survives off creative builds not superior play.
I agree that FS's wording was a bit strong, but results are results and Fantasy blew away Flash and Leta's accomplishments in the month of March.
On April 15 2009 06:15 Kuja900 wrote:
7. Flash should be in the CNBC I know hes awesome but he sucked ass this month. Rememeber when July won the osl and got 4th rank then did nothing for a month and dropped off the rank entirely. Why is this situation any different in his last 12 hes 4 wins 8 losses hes doing far worse then july was when he was stripped of rank entirely. Before you went solely based off of who did what in the month but now you rank based on past performance as well. Flash has done nothing this month and has no business on the rank.
funny to me that in your 7th point you seem to be paying attention to what happened in the month when in 1, 2, 4 and 5 you seem to have no perspective on what was being considered for the PR. I agree with your point here though, same as with Stork.
Had I done the PRs, they would look like:
1. JD
2. Lux
3. Fantasy
4. Bisu
5. Jangbi
6. SkyHigh
7-9. some random ordering of Hiya, by.hero, and Nada
10. Uh, I dunno, goodfriend or something, lol what an uneventful month...
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Alot of my points were not as much against the actual rank, even though I disagree with alot of it, but more so against FS's portrayal of the players which is what really got to me. Although some of my arguments were against placement aswell. Fantasy as the best terran on earth and luxury as the best zvp inparticular.
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There's nothing wrong with surviving off creative straight-up builds instead of "superior" play, if it takes you to the OSL finals and wins Bo5's. If anything, mixing it up makes the scene far more entertaining. Arguably, without the creativity, BoxeR may not have been a better player than NC..YellOw. Play to your strengths.
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Why are people complaining about SkyHigh's placement? It is pretty low, and I actually think it could be a lot higher.
SkyHigh was instrumental in CJ's winners league domination. He played 4 games in the most high pressure situation I can imagine, and he played them pretty damn well. He was the only thing standing in between his team and defeat - and proleague (especially the finals) is taken quite seriously by the players.
For a player who used to be known for shaky nerves, I'd say thats quite good, wouldn't you? I would also say that overall, SkyHigh is a far better player than Leta - who many people think should still have a place on this rank after playing not-so-great for a while.
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People seem to not understand that its a monthly based system.
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No, it's a cumulative ranking of progamers with their most recent performance having more weight the past month's performances that is released monthly.
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On April 14 2009 15:48 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2009 12:50 Vasoline73 wrote:
Any CBNC for Hoejja? Or is he too rookie still? I guess he hasn't shown anything that great, but it would be cool to hear your thoughts Steve i think he has potential, but cheesing Bisu isnt enough...
Well, he almost beat JD in a ZvZ :D
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On April 15 2009 16:10 Vasoline73 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2009 15:48 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 14 2009 12:50 Vasoline73 wrote:
Any CBNC for Hoejja? Or is he too rookie still? I guess he hasn't shown anything that great, but it would be cool to hear your thoughts Steve i think he has potential, but cheesing Bisu isnt enough... Well, he almost beat JD in a ZvZ :D
Not really, if you closely analyzed that game, he massed up on lings to exploit a timing before Jaedong had mutalisks. But this left him with less mutalisks after the attack failed, so Jaedong just massed and rolled Hoejja over with his micro. I feel like Hoejja is a zerg version of Nal_ra, and we'll be seeing more unorthodox play from him in the future.
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there's no such thing as "almost" winning in a progamer zvz, jsut because of the anture of the matchup
the entire game the players are usually neck in neck, so as close as the game looks, it can't really be any other way
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On April 16 2009 04:51 anderoo wrote:
there's no such thing as "almost" winning in a progamer zvz, jsut because of the anture of the matchup
the entire game the players are usually neck in neck, so as close as the game looks, it can't really be any other way
well there are games like that, you can't say they arent. however if one of the zergs is winning a lingfight at the start that does not mean he is almost winning the game. For example Y[arnc] was damn close to win the first game in that PL series against JD, however the second one wasn't like that, there was a point when it seemed like Yellow might get it, but JD quickly wiped out those hopes
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On April 15 2009 15:33 Calyx wrote:
For a player who used to be known for shaky nerves, I'd say thats quite good, wouldn't you? I would also say that overall, SkyHigh is a far better player than Leta - who many people think should still have a place on this rank after playing not-so-great for a while.
? uhm no?
Leta unarguably shouldered OGN (maybe with a little Yarnc help) by himself while taking on both SL's.
Skyhigh is on a legendary proleague team with several tried veterans who can help SkyHigh grow and get better.
Leta is on a team, where he is looked up to as one of the "veterans" even though he is reletavly new to the scene. Next to him and Yarnc there are no really "good" players that can dominate in the SL's or the PL.
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On April 15 2009 06:15 Kuja900 wrote:
Ok im going to list some complaints i have with this list:
1. Luxury having the best zvp in the world? Hes Park "Chance" Soo in a straightup game most of the time he gets roflestomped. A year ago he was known for his aweful zvp and because he beat one toss in a series now its godlike. Looking at it from a 15 game perspective july/jaedong both have far superior records. Hell his record is one win better then Calm.
2. Why on earth is nada at 10?! What about Leta/Hiya/Calm/manyothers? Nada narrowly lost to jangbi besides that what has he done to earn ranking. He didnt even win I know he played great but I wouldn't put money on him against any of the players I listed. Not to mention hes not getting played in the pro league roster not a good sign for his recovery.
3. How is Stork still so high he got roflstomped by Jangbi and has been surviving off aggressive builds/cheese lately. His record is also looking terrible.
4. Skyhigh did awesome against lecaf ok cool what else has he done? Even when he beat oz you have to remember JD had a failed 5 pool and their 2 tosses are utter dogshit (spear/young). The only impressive win that night was against Hiya.
5. WHERE THE HELL IS LETA
6. Fantasy is nowhere near the best terran on earth flash/leta both eons better. He survives off creative builds not superior play.
7. Flash should be in the CBNC I know hes awesome but he sucked ass this month. Rememeber when July won the osl and got 4th rank then did nothing for a month and dropped off the rank entirely. Why is this situation any different in his last 12 hes 4 wins 8 losses hes doing far worse then july was when he was stripped of rank entirely. Before you went solely based off of who did what in the month but now you rank based on past performance as well. Flash has done nothing this month and has no business on the rank.
1. i agree, his z v p is brilliant and it sure as hell isn't better than jaedongs. but he did prepare well and did take the msl. he doenst win standard, relies on some kind of early game pressure to gget an advantage, but that his style to win z v p, and it seems to work. losing proleague games here and there he should win doesnt faze me. savior never did well in proleague during his prime along with bisu.
2. calm did absolutely nothing, no leagues, if i remember correctly. yeah, leta and nada are interchangeable imo, but oh well. the problem is besides leta, i dont think anyone did nething to justify climbing into the rankings. nada is there because there is noone better. (hiya.... he shoulda been there had he not FAILED in proleague)
3. stork double berthed into both starleagues. he made it pretty far. he lost to eventual winners in both leagues. he deserves a decent spot, what has the others done? flash crashed and burned in the beginning. nada and by.hero proceeded through one league only to similar advancement as stork. skyhigh i dont believe he even belongs in thsi rank.
4. i agree with you 100%. so what he has nerves to go on an all kill. 2 of the games were against complete scrubs, you dont even need nerves to beat young or spear when you are good as skyhigh. also, jaedong failed on his 5pool, so its like whatever, not even a real game. and against hiya.. he had one good game basically in the month near the end.
5. leta should be 9-10 and take out skyhigh.
6. fantasy's strength remind me of bisu back when he was first emerging. he can prepare like no other when it comes to BoX, but just your average decent gamer when it comes to games on the spot( like winner's league.) when he doesnt knwo the opponent.
7. i think the only thing that kept flash on this rank is his epic game against jaedong... but i believed that by.hero and nada would rank higher than him...
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On April 14 2009 15:48 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2009 12:50 Vasoline73 wrote:
Any CBNC for Hoejja? Or is he too rookie still? I guess he hasn't shown anything that great, but it would be cool to hear your thoughts Steve i think he has potential, but cheesing Bisu isnt enough...
cheesing?? rofl
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I don't even understand the argument for Leta being on the PR. He dropped out of both leagues in February and did absolutely nothing in March. He didn't play (except for beating a couple of shitty KTF zergs and losing to Flash). How the hell does that warrant a spot over even Nada?
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NADA!!! WE ALL LOVE U
' ' v
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FakeSteve cursed Luxury who's been playing as if he forgot his brain after celebration of his win in the MSL.
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On April 16 2009 09:11 piratebay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2009 15:48 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 14 2009 12:50 Vasoline73 wrote:
Any CBNC for Hoejja? Or is he too rookie still? I guess he hasn't shown anything that great, but it would be cool to hear your thoughts Steve i think he has potential, but cheesing Bisu isnt enough... cheesing?? rofl
how do you call an unorthodox, mapsepcific, agressive build which relies on surprising the opponent and is aiming to abuse a weakness of the FE build? I call them cheese builds, any better words wor it that you know?
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I completely agree with this power rank especially on Bisu. Bisu's biggest strength AND weakness is his overconfidence. It works in his favor when he plays powerhouse players but he fucking falls apart against players he's favored to blow out. (Check his history of major losses). And while some Bisu fans think that's an argument in his favor, it is NOT. No one cares about the one who loses, the one standing on the platform is who people have eyes on. Until Bisu realizes that, bonjwa just isn't his title to claim.
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I think Canata has to be considered an early favorite for #1 next month. He has destroyed everyone
+ Show Spoiler + in 2009
+ Show Spoiler +minutes of awful awful TvT
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Now I don't agree with Luxury at second spot.
Nor do I agree with Stork being so low.
Stork is serious right now, few more games and everyone should see...
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On April 16 2009 17:50 Orbifold wrote:I think Canata has to be considered an early favorite for #1 next month. He has destroyed everyone + Show Spoiler + in 2009 + Show Spoiler +minutes of awful awful TvT .
haha. the LR thread was great to read though. i can't wait to see the games from last night
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On April 16 2009 15:03 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2009 09:11 piratebay wrote:On April 14 2009 15:48 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 14 2009 12:50 Vasoline73 wrote:
Any CBNC for Hoejja? Or is he too rookie still? I guess he hasn't shown anything that great, but it would be cool to hear your thoughts Steve i think he has potential, but cheesing Bisu isnt enough... cheesing?? rofl how do you call an unorthodox, mapsepcific, agressive build which relies on surprising the opponent and is aiming to abuse a weakness of the FE build? I call them cheese builds, any better words wor it that you know?
i call it playing to your strengths. it isnt like he went 5 pool liek luxury did against bisu
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On April 16 2009 15:03 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2009 09:11 piratebay wrote:On April 14 2009 15:48 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 14 2009 12:50 Vasoline73 wrote:
Any CBNC for Hoejja? Or is he too rookie still? I guess he hasn't shown anything that great, but it would be cool to hear your thoughts Steve i think he has potential, but cheesing Bisu isnt enough... cheesing?? rofl how do you call an unorthodox, mapsepcific, agressive build which relies on surprising the opponent and is aiming to abuse a weakness of the FE build? I call them cheese builds, any better words wor it that you know?
I think in general, the usual denomination of cheese is a lot more risky and puts the cheeser way behind when scouted. Getting burrow and a few zerglings isn't really cheese, but its' also is not the epitome of awesome PR deserving play.
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On April 17 2009 10:10 piratebay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2009 15:03 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 16 2009 09:11 piratebay wrote:On April 14 2009 15:48 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 14 2009 12:50 Vasoline73 wrote:
Any CBNC for Hoejja? Or is he too rookie still? I guess he hasn't shown anything that great, but it would be cool to hear your thoughts Steve i think he has potential, but cheesing Bisu isnt enough... cheesing?? rofl how do you call an unorthodox, mapsepcific, agressive build which relies on surprising the opponent and is aiming to abuse a weakness of the FE build? I call them cheese builds, any better words wor it that you know? i call it playing to your strengths. it isnt like he went 5 pool liek luxury did against bisu
cheese migth be called playing to your strengths, troughout the history many players were known as dangerous cheesers. But i wonder what you call cheese than, beside 5pooling.
On April 17 2009 14:03 SerpentFlame wrote:
I think in general, the usual denomination of cheese is a lot more risky and puts the cheeser way behind when scouted. Getting burrow and a few zerglings isn't really cheese, but its' also is not the epitome of awesome PR deserving play.
I dont think you realize that spending 200/200 on lingspeed and burrow + delaying your natural hatch + producing lings instead of drones hurts your economy immensly. And it was risky, the burrow trick isnt a guaranteed success, if 2-3 more lings would have remained outside Bisu could have won. I remember Hoejja saying sg like he got lucky with Bisu pulling the probes because somehow the lings got trough more easely if they targeted the probes, instead of the move spam.
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Who cares if he has a more agressive mid-game play, cheeses or not. basing this off game results and by results luxury should be 3rd, 4th or 5th on powerank, not 2nd. Also there is no cheese in sc, only people making excuses because they made risks or wern't good enough at scouting.
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On April 17 2009 16:02 stroggos wrote:
Who cares if he has a more agressive mid-game play, cheeses or not. basing this off game results and by results luxury should be 3rd, 4th or 5th on powerank, not 2nd. Also there is no cheese in sc, only people making excuses because they made risks or wern't good enough at scouting.
Yes, everyone should scout on 8 in every MU then to avoid 5 rax, pools, etc. That's the stupidest I've heard, "there is no cheese in sc". Isn't the definition of cheese something that doesn't work nearly as well if it's scouted or something like that?
Ex. in PvP, a dragoon and zealot are blocking the ramp, they rush DTs, how do you scout it?
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On April 17 2009 16:02 stroggos wrote:
Who cares if he has a more agressive mid-game play, cheeses or not. basing this off game results and by results luxury should be 3rd, 4th or 5th on powerank, not 2nd. Also there is no cheese in sc, only people making excuses because they made risks or wern't good enough at scouting.
thank you that you came and enlightened us that cheese does not exist, we only pretending that is. wtf
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Ok ok, I think with regards to Fantasy's series against Bisu a little logical contemplation is in order. I was as shocked and disappointed as any Bisu fan when Bisu lost 3-0, but any Starcraft BoX series has to be taken with a grain of salt. The reason for this is the nature of *positive feedback* in Starcraft. It is this trait which makes Starcraft different from pretty much all national and international sports out there. What I mean by positive feedback is that when a player gains an advantage during a match, that player will be able to reinforce that advantage and over time it will grow. For example, if a player manages to harrass a player's economy by kililng a probe or 2, they will instantly have a small advantage in economy. But each of their extra probe or 2 will bring in a few extra minerals per mining trip, which will allow them to build probes and units faster than their opponent, which will lead to them being able to gain an even larger economic lead over their opponent. This is the problematic nature of Starcraft. Every little advantage counts, because it reinforces itself and builds up (in some cases exponentially, in fact) over time.
Compare this to a sport without significant positive feedback, like basketball for example. An analogy to starcraft would be that if team A's score dropped to say 10 points below the other team's (team B) score, then team A would be required to pull a player off the court and play 4 vs. 5. This would naturally put them at an even further disadvantage. Of course this doesn't happen in basketball. If a team is down by 10, or even 50 points, they have the same chance to score as they did when they started the game.
My point here is, in 2 out of 3 games Bisu found himself at a disadvantage early on (failed reaver Game 1, failed 2 shuttle harrass Game 3), and as time went on it became harder and harder for him to overcome that disadvantage because of the nature of the game. That's not necessarily a sign of inferior skill. It simply means Fantasy didn't make a large enough mistake for Bisu to capitalize on it and give himself an opportunity to get himself back into the game.
That's why you need to take every series with a grain of salt. It's why Fantasy *shouldn't* be ranked over Bisu, since he historically has performed poorly in the pro leagues (below .500 average), even in the normal Pro League where matches and maps are decided long in advance, giving players plenty of time to practice.
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Ok there is cheese but the point is if the person who's getting cheesed is better than the cheeser then they should come out on top in cheese situations.
So why the hell does it matter if a top pro-gamer cheeses or goes all-in all the time. It's just as hard and risky to cheese/all-in at the top than to do standard play. Unless your cheese is like a 4 pool vs 14CC or something that's rediculously risky.
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On April 17 2009 17:03 latent wrote:
Ok ok, I think with regards to Fantasy's series against Bisu a little logical contemplation is in order. I was as shocked and disappointed as any Bisu fan when Bisu lost 3-0, but any Starcraft BoX series has to be taken with a grain of salt. The reason for this is the nature of *positive feedback* in Starcraft. It is this trait which makes Starcraft different from pretty much all national and international sports out there. What I mean by positive feedback is that when a player gains an advantage during a match, that player will be able to reinforce that advantage and over time it will grow. For example, if a player manages to harrass a player's economy by kililng a probe or 2, they will instantly have a small advantage in economy. But each of their extra probe or 2 will bring in a few extra minerals per mining trip, which will allow them to build probes and units faster than their opponent, which will lead to them being able to gain an even larger economic lead over their opponent. This is the problematic nature of Starcraft. Every little advantage counts, because it reinforces itself and builds up (in some cases exponentially, in fact) over time.
Compare this to a sport without significant positive feedback, like basketball for example. An analogy to starcraft would be that if team A's score dropped to say 10 points below the other team's (team B) score, then team A would be required to pull a player off the court and play 4 vs. 5. This would naturally put them at an even further disadvantage. Of course this doesn't happen in basketball. If a team is down by 10, or even 50 points, they have the same chance to score as they did when they started the game.
My point here is, in 2 out of 3 games Bisu found himself at a disadvantage early on (failed reaver Game 1, failed 2 shuttle harrass Game 3), and as time went on it became harder and harder for him to overcome that disadvantage because of the nature of the game. That's not necessarily a sign of inferior skill. It simply means Fantasy didn't make a large enough mistake for Bisu to capitalize on it and give himself an opportunity to get himself back into the game.
That's why you need to take every series with a grain of salt. It's why Fantasy *shouldn't* be ranked over Bisu, since he historically has performed poorly in the pro leagues (below .500 average), even in the normal Pro League where matches and maps are decided long in advance, giving players plenty of time to practice.
ah, so now it's STARCRAFT's fault that Bisu put himself at a disadvantage and lost, not Fantasy's play or his own bad decisions. Thank you for enlightening us all.
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Protoss is just too weak for Bisu to ever be a Bonjwa, sad to say. He'll have to be satisfied with a couple titles every year or so. Poor guy.
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On April 18 2009 00:51 GGQ wrote:
Protoss is just too weak for Bisu to ever be a Bonjwa, sad to say. He'll have to be satisfied with a couple titles every year or so. Poor guy.
...Mantoss is out there sharpening his machete
So you're saying that..
Nal_Ra, Kingdom, Reach, Pusan, Stork, Garimto, and countless others
played a "weak" race?
Starcraft is valued because of its impeccable balance
no other RTS in the world has this fine balance of kickass
No one race has an advantage over the other
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On April 17 2009 17:03 latent wrote:
My point here is, in 2 out of 3 games Bisu found himself at a disadvantage early on (failed reaver Game 1, failed 2 shuttle harrass Game 3), and as time went on it became harder and harder for him to overcome that disadvantage because of the nature of the game. That's not necessarily a sign of inferior skill. It simply means Fantasy didn't make a large enough mistake for Bisu to capitalize on it and give himself an opportunity to get himself back into the game.
Basically the argument is that you should weigh all losses less, as long as one player didn't tremendously fuck up. In which case, the argument is not unique to Bisu; you can apply it to any player including Fantasy. Fantasy's loss to Jaedong didn't show that he was worse, it showed that Jaedong capitalized on a failed proxy factory, a thwarted vulture harass on Medusa, and a short timing window with mech!
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On April 18 2009 00:51 GGQ wrote:
Protoss is just too weak for Bisu to ever be a Bonjwa, sad to say. He'll have to be satisfied with a couple titles every year or so. Poor guy.
you shouldn't be playing starcraft if you think that.
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Sorry, I guess I should have made my sarcasm less subtle :D. Seriously, I just wish Bisu would stop getting so cocky and have more of a Jaedong like attitude.
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On April 18 2009 10:57 stroggos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2009 00:51 GGQ wrote:
Protoss is just too weak for Bisu to ever be a Bonjwa, sad to say. He'll have to be satisfied with a couple titles every year or so. Poor guy. you shouldn't be playing starcraft if you think that.
who's the Romanian now?
Wait... Damn! oO
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On April 17 2009 17:03 latent wrote:
My point here is, in 2 out of 3 games Bisu found himself at a disadvantage early on (failed reaver Game 1, failed 2 shuttle harrass Game 3), and as time went on it became harder and harder for him to overcome that disadvantage because of the nature of the game. That's not necessarily a sign of inferior skill. It simply means Fantasy didn't make a large enough mistake for Bisu to capitalize on it and give himself an opportunity to get himself back into the game.
That's why you need to take every series with a grain of salt. It's why Fantasy *shouldn't* be ranked over Bisu, since he historically has performed poorly in the pro leagues (below .500 average), even in the normal Pro League where matches and maps are decided long in advance, giving players plenty of time to practice.
Well, according to your line of thought I would say that jaedong isn't any better than fantasy but fantasy still is better than bisu. Fantasy just made 1 mistake more than jaedong which led to his loss 3-2, but if you are the one doing the first mistake every time in 3 games, it does actually more strongly point in the direction of inferior skill, at least on that particular day. Not that I really disagree with the fact that bisu is better than fantasy, just with your justification,
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On April 17 2009 17:03 latent wrote:
Ok ok, I think with regards to Fantasy's series against Bisu a little logical contemplation is in order. I was as shocked and disappointed as any Bisu fan when Bisu lost 3-0, but any Starcraft BoX series has to be taken with a grain of salt. The reason for this is the nature of *positive feedback* in Starcraft. It is this trait which makes Starcraft different from pretty much all national and international sports out there. What I mean by positive feedback is that when a player gains an advantage during a match, that player will be able to reinforce that advantage and over time it will grow. For example, if a player manages to harrass a player's economy by kililng a probe or 2, they will instantly have a small advantage in economy. But each of their extra probe or 2 will bring in a few extra minerals per mining trip, which will allow them to build probes and units faster than their opponent, which will lead to them being able to gain an even larger economic lead over their opponent. This is the problematic nature of Starcraft. Every little advantage counts, because it reinforces itself and builds up (in some cases exponentially, in fact) over time.
Compare this to a sport without significant positive feedback, like basketball for example. An analogy to starcraft would be that if team A's score dropped to say 10 points below the other team's (team B) score, then team A would be required to pull a player off the court and play 4 vs. 5. This would naturally put them at an even further disadvantage. Of course this doesn't happen in basketball. If a team is down by 10, or even 50 points, they have the same chance to score as they did when they started the game.
My point here is, in 2 out of 3 games Bisu found himself at a disadvantage early on (failed reaver Game 1, failed 2 shuttle harrass Game 3), and as time went on it became harder and harder for him to overcome that disadvantage because of the nature of the game. That's not necessarily a sign of inferior skill. It simply means Fantasy didn't make a large enough mistake for Bisu to capitalize on it and give himself an opportunity to get himself back into the game.
That's why you need to take every series with a grain of salt. It's why Fantasy *shouldn't* be ranked over Bisu, since he historically has performed poorly in the pro leagues (below .500 average), even in the normal Pro League where matches and maps are decided long in advance, giving players plenty of time to practice.
dude i'm going to have to ask you not to post in the power rank comments
you make long-winded posts about what you learned in your berkeley sc class, none of which is actually applicable to professional starcraft.
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His post applies. Simply put, he said: every little advantage matters. Long-winded and redundant, yes.
The ability to win in a series is necessary to become champion, so every series is NOT a grain of salt. The one who does not make small mistakes is inherently superior to the one who does because he has cleaner execution.
Most strategies and counters today have been figured out. The largest human factor left seems to be mind games and execution. Like in sports, the one who has the best execution is the best. Any coach can teach strategy. Bisu did not perform up to par. He bogeyed that series.
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On April 19 2009 01:54 vnlegend wrote:
His post applies. Simply put, he said: every little advantage matters. Long-winded and redundant, yes.
The ability to win in a series is necessary to become champion, so every series is NOT a grain of salt. The one who does not make small mistakes is inherently superior to the one who does because he has cleaner execution.
Most strategies and counters today have been figured out. The largest human factor left seems to be mind games and execution. Like in sports, the one who has the best execution is the best. Any coach can teach strategy. Bisu did not perform up to par. He bogeyed that series.
He's not talking about that post only.......
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On April 18 2009 13:07 GGQ wrote:
Sorry, I guess I should have made my sarcasm less subtle :D. Seriously, I just wish Bisu would stop getting so cocky and have more of a Jaedong like attitude.
so you prefer cocky and aggressive to cocky and humorless? =P
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On April 19 2009 15:14 traced wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2009 13:07 GGQ wrote:
Sorry, I guess I should have made my sarcasm less subtle :D. Seriously, I just wish Bisu would stop getting so cocky and have more of a Jaedong like attitude. so you prefer cocky and aggressive to cocky and humorless? =P
it was one game -.-
Though I think he refers to the interviews rather than their playstyles.
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Latent's post made me want to burn my eyes out. Are you frigging serious? Yeah advantages build up, great players stage comebacks. "Bisu lost because he had a disadvantage, therefore Bisu really beat Fantasy.... Think the metagame.""
Bisu made mistakes that game because Fantasy forced them with better play. Simple as that.
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On April 10 2009 19:57 Scaramanga wrote:
it'll be a cold day in hell before i consider fantasy a better terran than flash,
I just cant take into account that bo5 against bisu, its just their team mates and thats what always happens, someone rapes
Its just like Forgg in arena, yeah he 3-0ed the two best players on the planet but what did he do next season, nothing
For fantasy to be a better terran he needs to have some half decent results in proleauge which he isnt doing
I admit that this month he has played better than flash but calling him the best is wrong imo
savior never had good proleague results in his prime. bisu didnt either for like 6 months.
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On April 17 2009 17:03 latent wrote:
Ok ok, I think with regards to Fantasy's series against Bisu a little logical contemplation is in order. I was as shocked and disappointed as any Bisu fan when Bisu lost 3-0, but any Starcraft BoX series has to be taken with a grain of salt. The reason for this is the nature of *positive feedback* in Starcraft. It is this trait which makes Starcraft different from pretty much all national and international sports out there. What I mean by positive feedback is that when a player gains an advantage during a match, that player will be able to reinforce that advantage and over time it will grow. For example, if a player manages to harrass a player's economy by kililng a probe or 2, they will instantly have a small advantage in economy. But each of their extra probe or 2 will bring in a few extra minerals per mining trip, which will allow them to build probes and units faster than their opponent, which will lead to them being able to gain an even larger economic lead over their opponent. This is the problematic nature of Starcraft. Every little advantage counts, because it reinforces itself and builds up (in some cases exponentially, in fact) over time.
Compare this to a sport without significant positive feedback, like basketball for example. An analogy to starcraft would be that if team A's score dropped to say 10 points below the other team's (team B) score, then team A would be required to pull a player off the court and play 4 vs. 5. This would naturally put them at an even further disadvantage. Of course this doesn't happen in basketball. If a team is down by 10, or even 50 points, they have the same chance to score as they did when they started the game.
My point here is, in 2 out of 3 games Bisu found himself at a disadvantage early on (failed reaver Game 1, failed 2 shuttle harrass Game 3), and as time went on it became harder and harder for him to overcome that disadvantage because of the nature of the game. That's not necessarily a sign of inferior skill. It simply means Fantasy didn't make a large enough mistake for Bisu to capitalize on it and give himself an opportunity to get himself back into the game.
That's why you need to take every series with a grain of salt. It's why Fantasy *shouldn't* be ranked over Bisu, since he historically has performed poorly in the pro leagues (below .500 average), even in the normal Pro League where matches and maps are decided long in advance, giving players plenty of time to practice.
This has to be satire. Holy lol.
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On April 19 2009 15:29 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2009 15:14 traced wrote:On April 18 2009 13:07 GGQ wrote:
Sorry, I guess I should have made my sarcasm less subtle :D. Seriously, I just wish Bisu would stop getting so cocky and have more of a Jaedong like attitude. so you prefer cocky and aggressive to cocky and humorless? =P it was one game -.- Though I think he refers to the interviews rather than their playstyles.
yeah i know, thats what i was referring to.
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On April 20 2009 07:24 traced wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2009 15:29 Avidkeystamper wrote:On April 19 2009 15:14 traced wrote:On April 18 2009 13:07 GGQ wrote:
Sorry, I guess I should have made my sarcasm less subtle :D. Seriously, I just wish Bisu would stop getting so cocky and have more of a Jaedong like attitude. so you prefer cocky and aggressive to cocky and humorless? =P it was one game -.- Though I think he refers to the interviews rather than their playstyles. yeah i know, thats what i was referring to.
Really? Could you link one?
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On April 20 2009 09:27 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2009 07:24 traced wrote:On April 19 2009 15:29 Avidkeystamper wrote:On April 19 2009 15:14 traced wrote:On April 18 2009 13:07 GGQ wrote:
Sorry, I guess I should have made my sarcasm less subtle :D. Seriously, I just wish Bisu would stop getting so cocky and have more of a Jaedong like attitude. so you prefer cocky and aggressive to cocky and humorless? =P it was one game -.- Though I think he refers to the interviews rather than their playstyles. yeah i know, thats what i was referring to. Really? Could you link one?
something like:
"i rarely lose in practice vs (x)"
(to fantasy) "i have prepared against all of his possible builds," (fantasy responds), "sorry, but you won't win."
"i will all-kill" (just as much as bisu, who got a lot of shit for saying it.)
they're both cocky, difference is all in the perception
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Fantastic writeup, I love you Fakesteve ^^
I loved the part where Iloveoov is building a machine hehe, btw I think Boxer is helping just as much o,o
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On April 20 2009 17:49 traced wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2009 09:27 Avidkeystamper wrote:On April 20 2009 07:24 traced wrote:On April 19 2009 15:29 Avidkeystamper wrote:On April 19 2009 15:14 traced wrote:On April 18 2009 13:07 GGQ wrote:
Sorry, I guess I should have made my sarcasm less subtle :D. Seriously, I just wish Bisu would stop getting so cocky and have more of a Jaedong like attitude. so you prefer cocky and aggressive to cocky and humorless? =P it was one game -.- Though I think he refers to the interviews rather than their playstyles. yeah i know, thats what i was referring to. Really? Could you link one? something like: "i rarely lose in practice vs (x)" (to fantasy) "i have prepared against all of his possible builds," (fantasy responds), "sorry, but you won't win." "i will all-kill" (just as much as bisu, who got a lot of shit for saying it.) they're both cocky, difference is all in the perception
Really? Could you link one?
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 17 2009 17:03 latent wrote:
Ok ok, I think with regards to Fantasy's series against Bisu a little logical contemplation is in order. I was as shocked and disappointed as any Bisu fan when Bisu lost 3-0, but any Starcraft BoX series has to be taken with a grain of salt. The reason for this is the nature of *positive feedback* in Starcraft. It is this trait which makes Starcraft different from pretty much all national and international sports out there. What I mean by positive feedback is that when a player gains an advantage during a match, that player will be able to reinforce that advantage and over time it will grow. For example, if a player manages to harrass a player's economy by kililng a probe or 2, they will instantly have a small advantage in economy. But each of their extra probe or 2 will bring in a few extra minerals per mining trip, which will allow them to build probes and units faster than their opponent, which will lead to them being able to gain an even larger economic lead over their opponent. This is the problematic nature of Starcraft. Every little advantage counts, because it reinforces itself and builds up (in some cases exponentially, in fact) over time.
Compare this to a sport without significant positive feedback, like basketball for example. An analogy to starcraft would be that if team A's score dropped to say 10 points below the other team's (team B) score, then team A would be required to pull a player off the court and play 4 vs. 5. This would naturally put them at an even further disadvantage. Of course this doesn't happen in basketball. If a team is down by 10, or even 50 points, they have the same chance to score as they did when they started the game.
My point here is, in 2 out of 3 games Bisu found himself at a disadvantage early on (failed reaver Game 1, failed 2 shuttle harrass Game 3), and as time went on it became harder and harder for him to overcome that disadvantage because of the nature of the game. That's not necessarily a sign of inferior skill. It simply means Fantasy didn't make a large enough mistake for Bisu to capitalize on it and give himself an opportunity to get himself back into the game.
That's why you need to take every series with a grain of salt. It's why Fantasy *shouldn't* be ranked over Bisu, since he historically has performed poorly in the pro leagues (below .500 average), even in the normal Pro League where matches and maps are decided long in advance, giving players plenty of time to practice.
Hey, not only was it long-winded but it was also incorrect. I can think of two major sports right off the top of my head with positive feedback: Baseball and Football.
Early edge in runs always gives a pitcher an advantage. He will not be as worried about challenging guys and giving up a lucky home run and will therefore throw more strikes (at least usually). Managers talk about this all the time.
Football is the same way. Early touchdown leads allow teams to turn to the running game, eating up clock time and pounding on opposing defenses. Coaches and fans also talk about this all the time. The advantage of the early lead is huge in these two sports, just like Starcraft and make it harder for the other player/team to claw his/their way back. And in all three cases, good opponents usually have a window or two to get back into the game.
And yes, with Basketball positive feedback is much less of a factor. You have to repeatedly score due to the shot clock, unless it's the last five minutes and that's usually the only time worth watching anyway
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Fantasy is still undefeated since the osl, Jaedong was until he faced the force known as FANTASY. I really hope we get to see a new rivalry emerge between the two. Their play is just a thing of absolute beauty.
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On April 20 2009 22:50 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2009 17:49 traced wrote:On April 20 2009 09:27 Avidkeystamper wrote:On April 20 2009 07:24 traced wrote:On April 19 2009 15:29 Avidkeystamper wrote:On April 19 2009 15:14 traced wrote:On April 18 2009 13:07 GGQ wrote:
Sorry, I guess I should have made my sarcasm less subtle :D. Seriously, I just wish Bisu would stop getting so cocky and have more of a Jaedong like attitude. so you prefer cocky and aggressive to cocky and humorless? =P it was one game -.- Though I think he refers to the interviews rather than their playstyles. yeah i know, thats what i was referring to. Really? Could you link one? something like: "i rarely lose in practice vs (x)" (to fantasy) "i have prepared against all of his possible builds," (fantasy responds), "sorry, but you won't win." "i will all-kill" (just as much as bisu, who got a lot of shit for saying it.) they're both cocky, difference is all in the perception Really? Could you link one?
just find any recent interview or read the osl finals thread
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Yeah I just read the interview, konadora's edition (the same person who translated Fantasy's)
"i rarely lose in practice vs (x)"- this was not part of the interview
" i have prepared against all of his possible builds,"- he said he practiced against the builds fantasy used, but was not able to show it. He never said he practiced against every build.
Yes, he said he would all kill if the chance arrives, but the difference here is that Jaedong never ever blames any losses except on his lack of practice and is aware of the pitfalls of cockiness.
Anyways, you original statement was that Bisu is cocky and aggressive and Jaedong is cocky and humorless. Obviously, this is a whole big coinencidence that most people think that Bisu is cocky and few people think that Jaedong is; both players have a equal number of fans, I'm guessing.
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Poll: Who is more cocky?
(Vote): Bisu
(Vote): Jaedong
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Stop the presses! Bisu is more arrogant than Jaedong! Obviously that also means Jaedong isn't arrogant at all! Wait, no, that's retarded...
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Who the fuck would assume that? You're making inferences yourself and debunking them. My poll is valid. My polls are always valid.
On April 21 2009 06:58 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:
Are you some kind of agricultural by-product, the dry stalk of a cereal plant, after the grain or seed has been removed, that has somehow transformed into a man?
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On April 21 2009 11:44 Sentenal wrote:
Stop the presses! Bisu is more arrogant than Jaedong! Obviously that also means Jaedong isn't arrogant at all! Wait, no, that's retarded...
Holy crap no way! I had not idea there was a reason people focus on Bisu's "cockiness" rather than Jaedong's. You should tell traced that.
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On April 21 2009 09:29 purple[time] wrote:
Fantasy is still undefeated since the osl, Jaedong was until he faced the force known as FANTASY. I really hope we get to see a new rivalry emerge between the two. Their play is just a thing of absolute beauty.
You mean Fantasy won ONE game after the OSL and that is considered "still undefeated"? Don't use fancy words for a very minor achievement. There haven't been enough games to use words like that.
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Fantasy was pretty awesome beating jaedong in proleague, game was pretty intense overall. Even if he didn't finish him off in the OSL. Though I wish by.hero took JD out and had a Fantasy by.hero final. Would've been much more interesting to watch imo.
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On April 22 2009 01:13 Zeridian wrote:
Fantasy was pretty awesome beating jaedong in proleague, game was pretty intense overall. Even if he didn't finish him off in the OSL. Though I wish by.hero took JD out and had a Fantasy by.hero final. Would've been much more interesting to watch imo.
Yeah by.hero beeing that smart 9 pool speeds him 3 times in a row and beats fantasy that has 1 marine and a factory building every game by that time :D .But you never know how will all turn out .
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On April 21 2009 11:09 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Anyways, you original statement was that Bisu is cocky and aggressive and Jaedong is cocky and humorless.
that's actually the exact opposite of my original statement
the guy said he wished bisu would have a jaedong attitude, implying jaedong's attitude is better.
so i said, "so you prefer cocky and aggressive to cocky and humorless? =P"
don't get too bent out of shape because of it, i thought the smiley made it clear i was kidding
On April 21 2009 12:04 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2009 11:44 Sentenal wrote:
Stop the presses! Bisu is more arrogant than Jaedong! Obviously that also means Jaedong isn't arrogant at all! Wait, no, that's retarded... Holy crap no way! I had not idea there was a reason people focus on Bisu's "cockiness" rather than Jaedong's. You should tell traced that.
i think you misunderstood this too...
like, i think you're making up my argument in your mind. i'm just saying they're both cocky, in regards to that dude's statement. which they are. i don't care if bisu is more cocky.
WHY IS EVERYTHING SO DIFFICULT, TEAMLIQUID
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okay, you're right, I'm wrong, it must be more of a feeling the Koreans get from the players or a rep they have.
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NADA <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
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On April 21 2009 09:21 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 17 2009 17:03 latent wrote:
Ok ok, I think with regards to Fantasy's series against Bisu a little logical contemplation is in order. I was as shocked and disappointed as any Bisu fan when Bisu lost 3-0, but any Starcraft BoX series has to be taken with a grain of salt. The reason for this is the nature of *positive feedback* in Starcraft. It is this trait which makes Starcraft different from pretty much all national and international sports out there. What I mean by positive feedback is that when a player gains an advantage during a match, that player will be able to reinforce that advantage and over time it will grow. For example, if a player manages to harrass a player's economy by kililng a probe or 2, they will instantly have a small advantage in economy. But each of their extra probe or 2 will bring in a few extra minerals per mining trip, which will allow them to build probes and units faster than their opponent, which will lead to them being able to gain an even larger economic lead over their opponent. This is the problematic nature of Starcraft. Every little advantage counts, because it reinforces itself and builds up (in some cases exponentially, in fact) over time.
Compare this to a sport without significant positive feedback, like basketball for example. An analogy to starcraft would be that if team A's score dropped to say 10 points below the other team's (team B) score, then team A would be required to pull a player off the court and play 4 vs. 5. This would naturally put them at an even further disadvantage. Of course this doesn't happen in basketball. If a team is down by 10, or even 50 points, they have the same chance to score as they did when they started the game.
My point here is, in 2 out of 3 games Bisu found himself at a disadvantage early on (failed reaver Game 1, failed 2 shuttle harrass Game 3), and as time went on it became harder and harder for him to overcome that disadvantage because of the nature of the game. That's not necessarily a sign of inferior skill. It simply means Fantasy didn't make a large enough mistake for Bisu to capitalize on it and give himself an opportunity to get himself back into the game.
That's why you need to take every series with a grain of salt. It's why Fantasy *shouldn't* be ranked over Bisu, since he historically has performed poorly in the pro leagues (below .500 average), even in the normal Pro League where matches and maps are decided long in advance, giving players plenty of time to practice. Hey, not only was it long-winded but it was also incorrect. I can think of two major sports right off the top of my head with positive feedback: Baseball and Football. Early edge in runs always gives a pitcher an advantage. He will not be as worried about challenging guys and giving up a lucky home run and will therefore throw more strikes (at least usually). Managers talk about this all the time. Football is the same way. Early touchdown leads allow teams to turn to the running game, eating up clock time and pounding on opposing defenses. Coaches and fans also talk about this all the time. The advantage of the early lead is huge in these two sports, just like Starcraft and make it harder for the other player/team to claw his/their way back. And in all three cases, good opponents usually have a window or two to get back into the game. And yes, with Basketball positive feedback is much less of a factor. You have to repeatedly score due to the shot clock, unless it's the last five minutes and that's usually the only time worth watching anyway
The positive feedback in baseball is marginal. The psychological factor is very difficult to quantify or account for. Managers also talk about "gut feelings", and if sabermetrics has demonstrated anything, it's that "gut feelings" are more often than not meaningless. The point is in starcraft it's built into the nature of the game. Your point about football is interesting. However, the advantage the leading team has doesn't continually increase over time, or balloon exponentially as an economic advantage in starcraft does. Also, the ball-control methodology's advantages can be reduced by a strong defense (which interestingly is why defensive-oriented teams perform so much better in the playoffs).
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what match is the much v flash? what league, i cant find it on youtube.
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On April 24 2009 21:29 GreEny K wrote:
what match is the much v flash? what league, i cant find it on youtube.
It was in winners league.
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On April 22 2009 03:23 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2009 01:13 Zeridian wrote:
Fantasy was pretty awesome beating jaedong in proleague, game was pretty intense overall. Even if he didn't finish him off in the OSL. Though I wish by.hero took JD out and had a Fantasy by.hero final. Would've been much more interesting to watch imo. Yeah by.hero beeing that smart 9 pool speeds him 3 times in a row and beats fantasy that has 1 marine and a factory building every game by that time :D .But you never know how will all turn out .
except, fantasy can use m&ms.. Rewatch the finals again.
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the next power rank will look so much differently
its going to be funny when comparing the 2.
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On April 21 2009 11:11 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:Poll: Who is more cocky?( Vote): Bisu ( Vote): Jaedong
Bisu 100%
Jaedong is a Budhist
Bisu is a egotistic
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this surely was a PR with really few comments
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Luxury should drop a few spots next month he's been killing my FPL together with Stork , but don't drop him to much , because he is been losing to good players except pure ... Stork and JangBi should drop too . Leta skyhigh and Fantasy should move up . Also Kal hasn't been doing to shaby Free also .
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I got bored so I thought I'd see how the current PR players have been doing this month. This all starts at April 11th since those were the first games played since this PR was posted.
Jaedong: 5-4 since April 11th. 3-0 ZvZ, but 2-4 for anything else.
Luxury: 1-4. Only win is against Sea on Outsider.
Bisu: 3-1. Wins against Light, Backho, and Reach. Lost to the Great Contain though.
Fantasy: Perfect 4-0 so far including a win over Jaedong.
Jangbi: 1-5. Only win was going 1-2 against Baby in GOM where he was eliminated regardless.
Stork: 2-4. His wins came from ZerO and going 1-2 against MVP in GOM.
Flash: 6-2. Lost in the MST Winners match and lost a TvZ on Battle Royal. While Flash would be eliminated from the MSL if he loses again, it's pretty unlikely considering his competition.
by.hero: 2-1. He really didn't do much this month. Beat Sair 2-0 in GOM and lost to Piano in PL.
Skyhigh: 3-1. Advanced to MSL by beating Hyuk and Flash and has gone 1-1 in PL (Win over Young, Loss to Jaehoon)
Nada: 1-2. Eliminated from GOM by going 1-2 against Falcon.
The MST on the 30th will be pretty important for some people.
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It seems that Terrans have risen to the top again with Flash, Fantasy, Skyhigh, Light, Leta...
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9070 Posts
meh, I see no reason for JD to drop the top spot... ofc if he somehow gets outed from the MSL so early it could be a different story, but I doubt it will happen. Below him its hard to say whats what but I guess fantasy bisu flash and skyhigh should be somewhere near the top as well
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Skyhigh really making a tear up the ranks. I don't remember the last time someone went up so fast so soon. I'm not counting Leta, since he was good for a long time before his PR entrance.
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Luxury should fall IMO. I don't know where Jaedong should go, if he should even go anywhere. He has gone like 5-5 since OSL finals, right? He lost game 1 in MST, so is borderline there (though, still likely to make it out). 3-3 in PL so far. Advanced 2-1 in GOM. Mediocre results, but mainly the biggest thing against him right now is PL losses, which I don't really put too much weight on. I guess he should stay at #1 for the month, but other people like Bisu and Fantasy are catching up (both should rise IMO).
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Jd producing some awful results, but he didnt drop out from nowhere.
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On April 29 2009 07:34 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Skyhigh really making a tear up the ranks. I don't remember the last time someone went up so fast so soon. I'm not counting Leta, since he was good for a long time before his PR entrance.
Did everyone forget the fact that Skyhigh was a GOM season 2 semifinalist and teared everyone's ass through( except Bisu who was in god-mode at that time) including his series vs Best which was fucking impressive SC while Best was still playing good PvT? Skyhigh was playing good SC last season 2, just his all kill put him on the spot, thats all. Fantasy(In series especially),Flash,Leta, are better than Skyhigh although he has been playing sick SC recently.
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I don't envy FakeSteve's job for next month, this month's results are pretty hard to analyze as it's just early GOM games, MST groups, and proleague games on some maps with serious balance issues...
I'm honestly expecting a pretty unambitious rank next month with some ordering of Flash/Bisu/Jaedong in the top 3 pending anything silly happening and knocking any of them out of a league early. Other than that, I don't really know what to expect besides Lux remaining on the list at either 8, 9, or 10 with some sort of warning of dropping off if he doesn't step his shit up, Jangbi getting smashed for his poor proleague performances (and probably for losing to Baby too, but Baby played a hell of a series, so it's harder to fault him for that loss even if it is in his godmode matchup), and Stork getting a stern talking to for fucking up vs. MVP or possibly being removed from the list straight up.
eh, as per usual, I just wanna see Steve write some ridiculous shit that's a good read.
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On April 29 2009 22:29 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2009 07:34 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Skyhigh really making a tear up the ranks. I don't remember the last time someone went up so fast so soon. I'm not counting Leta, since he was good for a long time before his PR entrance. Did everyone forget the fact that Skyhigh was a GOM season 2 semifinalist and teared everyone's ass through( except Bisu who was in god-mode at that time) including his series vs Best which was fucking impressive SC while Best was still playing good PvT? Skyhigh was playing good SC last season 2, just his all kill put him on the spot, thats all. Fantasy(In series especially),Flash,Leta, are better than Skyhigh although he has been playing sick SC recently.
I personally have had my eye on Skyhigh for a long time... Especially after Idra said something like "If MSL was offline, SkyHigh would win it". Not too surprising that he's doing well atm, and I'm expecting a lot more of him in the future.
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I think you're forgetting Fantasy, Mogwai.
It's gotta be Jaedong at 1 (poor week but enough to hold his OSL win for another month since Fantasy and Bisu have only played 4 games each).
Bisu for 2nd if he 2-0s his MST, otherwise he switches with Fantasy for 3rd.
Flash for 4th, it's a big jump from 7 for 6-2 but everyone in between dropped the ball.
(3-1 proleague, 1 bo3 over Pure, 1-1 to loser's game in MST)
The rest of the rankings is muddy but uncontroversial.
Luxury played even below expectations, if that's possible. His MSL win had to be honored last month but this month's proleague results should put him in a spot he more accurately deserves.
Jangbi may have narrowly averted a free fall with his + Show Spoiler + but won't be in the conversation for the top spots with his performance.
Not that Skyhigh and by.hero aren't great and all but no matter what, their positions this month are probably going to be overrated. Expectations exceed results for them by a large margin simply because there weren't enough games.
I'd still put Stork somewhere around the 8th spot. Nada is out of course, but Leta belongs somewhere.
Zero, Effort, and Calm are all looking really good. Is it enough to break Power Rank? You could easily slap them all on CBNC, zerg has the best up and coming talent.
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On April 29 2009 23:36 Mogwai wrote:
I don't envy FakeSteve's job for next month, this month's results are pretty hard to analyze as it's just early GOM games, MST groups, and proleague games on some maps with serious balance issues...
I'm honestly expecting a pretty unambitious rank next month with some ordering of Flash/Bisu/Jaedong in the top 3 pending anything silly happening and knocking any of them out of a league early. Other than that, I don't really know what to expect besides Lux remaining on the list at either 8, 9, or 10 with some sort of warning of dropping off if he doesn't step his shit up, Jangbi getting smashed for his poor proleague performances (and probably for losing to Baby too, but Baby played a hell of a series, so it's harder to fault him for that loss even if it is in his godmode matchup), and Stork getting a stern talking to for fucking up vs. MVP or possibly being removed from the list straight up.
eh, as per usual, I just wanna see Steve write some ridiculous shit that's a good read.
Steve might just skip a couple weeks and wait till the situation becomes clerarer, haven't heard a word from him for quite some time, and it's the last day of the month so....
why dont we make a "guess when the PR will come out" poll?
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On April 30 2009 00:33 Verilan wrote:I think you're forgetting Fantasy, Mogwai. It's gotta be Jaedong at 1 (poor week but enough to hold his OSL win for another month since Fantasy and Bisu have only played 4 games each). Bisu for 2nd if he 2-0s his MST, otherwise he switches with Fantasy for 3rd. Flash for 4th, it's a big jump from 7 for 6-2 but everyone in between dropped the ball. (3-1 proleague, 1 bo3 over Pure, 1-1 to loser's game in MST) The rest of the rankings is muddy but uncontroversial. Luxury played even below expectations, if that's possible. His MSL win had to be honored last month but this month's proleague results should put him in a spot he more accurately deserves. Jangbi may have narrowly averted a free fall with his + Show Spoiler + but won't be in the conversation for the top spots with his performance. Not that Skyhigh and by.hero aren't great and all but no matter what, their positions this month are probably going to be overrated. Expectations exceed results for them by a large margin simply because there weren't enough games. I'd still put Stork somewhere around the 8th spot. Nada is out of course, but Leta belongs somewhere. Zero, Effort, and Calm are all looking really good. Is it enough to break Power Rank? You could easily slap them all on CBNC, zerg has the best up and coming talent.
If Steve's not willing to put Fantasy over Bisu for 3-0ing Bisu and taking 2 out of 5 vs. Jaedong because he's "He just isn't as good as Bisu yet," what makes you think that he'll put Fantasy over Flash in a month where their results aren't as lopsided as last (where Fantasy did a helluva lot and Flash didn't do jack). Fantasy isn't as good as flash and in a month where you can mostly just look at proleague, losing to a Zerg on battle royal is a foregone conclusion anyway and that's the only real difference in their records. I'd be surprised to see Fantasy over Flash, and if that's the way it is, I'll be interested to hear the method behind FS's madness.
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On April 30 2009 01:06 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2009 00:33 Verilan wrote:I think you're forgetting Fantasy, Mogwai. It's gotta be Jaedong at 1 (poor week but enough to hold his OSL win for another month since Fantasy and Bisu have only played 4 games each). Bisu for 2nd if he 2-0s his MST, otherwise he switches with Fantasy for 3rd. Flash for 4th, it's a big jump from 7 for 6-2 but everyone in between dropped the ball. (3-1 proleague, 1 bo3 over Pure, 1-1 to loser's game in MST) The rest of the rankings is muddy but uncontroversial. Luxury played even below expectations, if that's possible. His MSL win had to be honored last month but this month's proleague results should put him in a spot he more accurately deserves. Jangbi may have narrowly averted a free fall with his + Show Spoiler + but won't be in the conversation for the top spots with his performance. Not that Skyhigh and by.hero aren't great and all but no matter what, their positions this month are probably going to be overrated. Expectations exceed results for them by a large margin simply because there weren't enough games. I'd still put Stork somewhere around the 8th spot. Nada is out of course, but Leta belongs somewhere. Zero, Effort, and Calm are all looking really good. Is it enough to break Power Rank? You could easily slap them all on CBNC, zerg has the best up and coming talent. If Steve's not willing to put Fantasy over Bisu for 3-0ing Bisu and taking 2 out of 5 vs. Jaedong because he's "He just isn't as good as Bisu yet," what makes you think that he'll put Fantasy over Flash in a month where their results aren't as lopsided as last (where Fantasy did a helluva lot and Flash didn't do jack). Fantasy isn't as good as flash and in a month where you can mostly just look at proleague, losing to a Zerg on battle royal is a foregone conclusion anyway and that's the only real difference in their records. I'd be surprised to see Fantasy over Flash, and if that's the way it is, I'll be interested to hear the method behind FS's madness.
It would be crazy to rank Flash above Fantasy. I mean Fantasy was no3 because in the past,after the OSL he played like an ass in Proleague,Gom and MSL. Now that he is tearing shit up in Proleague too,and being fresh off of an awesome OSL run,there is no way in hell Flash should be above him. Flash was always good in PL,we have to see how he will do in the current Starleagues before we even consider him for top 3. And so far,he didn't shine in the MSL.
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well, let's see what happens with Fantasy in MST tonight, though I fully expect him to make it out of that group tonight.
I just think that it's a PR theme that if FS has a gut feeling about who's a better player in a slow month, he will put his gut feeling ahead of somewhat inconsequential differences in recent game results. I'm still not sold on Fantasy being better than Flash, and at the end of the day, I think that Steve's gut feeling on that issue is what's going to determine their ordering.
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On April 30 2009 02:51 Mogwai wrote:
well, let's see what happens with Fantasy in MST tonight, though I fully expect him to make it out of that group tonight.
I just think that it's a PR theme that if FS has a gut feeling about who's a better player in a slow month, he will put his gut feeling ahead of somewhat inconsequential differences in recent game results. I'm still not sold on Fantasy being better than Flash, and at the end of the day, I think that Steve's gut feeling on that issue is what's going to determine their ordering.
Yeah,Steve puts his gut feelings ahead,but even if he had balls as big as July has,he couldn't put Flash in top 3 after 4 victories against players like Pure,Horang 2 and Piano,even if Flash looked well in those games. To sum it up,Flash looked okay last month,while Fantasy looked FUCKING great last month,and even before the last month. Flash can't get a top 3 spot yet just because he is a more established player. Bisu was above Fantasy because he still played unbelieavably that month. If it was about gut feeings than Boxer,Savior and Nada should be the top 3 in every single PR.
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My top 10 would be:
1.Jaedong
2.Bisu
3.Fantasy
4.Flash,I guess
5. Leta
6. Skyhigh
7. Luxury
8. Jangbi
9. Great
10. Thezerg
It's weird that there is two zergs who are winning because of map imbalances i guess,but still,you have to put somebody in the PR,and out of the zergs,these two have performed the best. Stork plays god awful,the other zergs are inconsistent,so are the terrans,I would even have a hard time putting Jangbi in,but whatever and I don't know,maybe Free is the only other option,or so. Really hard month.
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eh, I don't like great or TheZerg on the list over Calm or Zero or Effort. I mean, hell, you could drop Jangbi and Luxury for playing like asses and just put all Calm, Zero, Effort and Great @ 7-10 and I'd be fine with it. I expect your top 8 are roughly correct for what'll come out though, maybe a little shuffling around among them, but probably those 8 players + 2 out of Calm Zero Effort and Great at 9-10...
I dunno, great has some nice wins... but seriously... ZergBong? dude... how're you gonna get booted from an individual league by ZergBong?
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Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi...
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Yeah, I mean previous month's performance shouldn't be considered no matter how awesome they are.
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On April 30 2009 16:15 Samurai- wrote:
Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi...
Yeah but he hasn't been eliminated from either of the leagues. As Fakesteve says,he lost in games that don't really matter,and in games that mattered he won. You can't overthrow JD based on just Proleague performances,because they are always lying.
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On April 30 2009 16:39 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2009 16:15 Samurai- wrote:
Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi... Yeah but he hasn't been eliminated from either of the leagues. As Fakesteve says,he lost in games that don't really matter,and in games that mattered he won. You can't overthrow JD based on just Proleague performances,because they are always lying.
He lost in games that dont really matter? What? Am i missing something or there was only proleague where every game matters, MST where you cant be eliminated yet if you loose 1 game, but loosing to ganzi and being the best player doesnt go together, and you cant say game doesnt matter in MST..
Only GOM doesnt matter for me, but that is my personal opinion, and if you watch his games there they were nothing special, and he lost 1 game anyway..
You can't overthrow JD based on just Proleague performances,because they are always lying. WHAT? Everything counts, and MST and GOM is not only Proleague and how is Proleague performance lying?
If there is only Proleague then you base your performance on proleague, or is better to say hmm he sux in proleague, but hey, this is false, we should base his performance on this invisible league where he should go 10:0 so he should be #1.. You just doesnt make sense..
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On April 30 2009 16:51 Samurai- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2009 16:39 Darth Peter wrote:On April 30 2009 16:15 Samurai- wrote:
Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi... Yeah but he hasn't been eliminated from either of the leagues. As Fakesteve says,he lost in games that don't really matter,and in games that mattered he won. You can't overthrow JD based on just Proleague performances,because they are always lying. He lost in games that dont really matter? What? Am i missing something or there was only proleague where every game matters, MST where you cant be eliminated yet if you loose 1 game, but loosing to ganzi and being the best player doesnt go together, and you cant say game doesnt matter in MST.. Only GOM doesnt matter for me, but that is my personal opinion, and if you watch his games there they were nothing special, and he lost 1 game anyway.. Show nested quote +You can't overthrow JD based on just Proleague performances,because they are always lying. WHAT? Everything counts, and MST and GOM is not only Proleague and how is Proleague performance lying? If there is only Proleague then you base your performance on proleague, or is better to say hmm he sux in proleague, but hey, this is false, we should base his performance on this invisible league where he should go 10:0 so he should be #1.. You just doesnt make sense..
Proleague is lying because there were many players who performed great in Proleague and sucked in MSL,OSL(Flash,Sea,Leta can be counted here too),and there were a lot of champions who sucked in Proleague(Luxury,Stork,Jaedong). I wanted to say that I will only count MST if he is eliminated. If he gets eliminated,he shouldn't be no1,but I couldn't care less if he qualifies 2:0 or 2:1.and lost to Ganzi,that is one game. He didn't play spectacular, or didn't do anything special but based on these games,you can't say yet that Fantasy or Bisu or Leta are better. And I care about Gom too,and he qualified there.
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On April 30 2009 17:03 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2009 16:51 Samurai- wrote:On April 30 2009 16:39 Darth Peter wrote:On April 30 2009 16:15 Samurai- wrote:
Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi... Yeah but he hasn't been eliminated from either of the leagues. As Fakesteve says,he lost in games that don't really matter,and in games that mattered he won. You can't overthrow JD based on just Proleague performances,because they are always lying. He lost in games that dont really matter? What? Am i missing something or there was only proleague where every game matters, MST where you cant be eliminated yet if you loose 1 game, but loosing to ganzi and being the best player doesnt go together, and you cant say game doesnt matter in MST.. Only GOM doesnt matter for me, but that is my personal opinion, and if you watch his games there they were nothing special, and he lost 1 game anyway.. You can't overthrow JD based on just Proleague performances,because they are always lying. WHAT? Everything counts, and MST and GOM is not only Proleague and how is Proleague performance lying? If there is only Proleague then you base your performance on proleague, or is better to say hmm he sux in proleague, but hey, this is false, we should base his performance on this invisible league where he should go 10:0 so he should be #1.. You just doesnt make sense.. Proleague is lying because there were many players who performed great in Proleague and sucked in MSL,OSL(Flash,Sea,Leta can be counted here too),and there were a lot of champions who sucked in Proleague(Luxury,Stork,Jaedong). I wanted to say that I will only count MST if he is eliminated. If he gets eliminated,he shouldn't be no1,but I couldn't care less if he qualifies 2:0 or 2:1.and lost to Ganzi,that is one game. He didn't play spectacular, or didn't do anything special but based on these games,you can't say yet that Fantasy or Bisu or Leta are better. And I care about Gom too,and he qualified there.
Then you are just wrong, your logic is wrong.. Everything matters.. Every game counts or there is no point in power rank at all... And how did Jaedong sucked in proleague ? Or bisu ? Its up to them where they put priority like stork said when he won his OSL that he didnt actually practice against kal in MSL . Come to think of it, you are horribly horribly wrong.. When flash won his OSL he was also completely destroying everyone in the proleague.. Leta also didnt suck in Starleague and until starleague came he was destroying everyone in proleague, and loosing to a MSL champion doesnt mean he sucked in MSL.. Just stop please..
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On April 30 2009 17:45 Samurai- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2009 17:03 Darth Peter wrote:On April 30 2009 16:51 Samurai- wrote:On April 30 2009 16:39 Darth Peter wrote:On April 30 2009 16:15 Samurai- wrote:
Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi... Yeah but he hasn't been eliminated from either of the leagues. As Fakesteve says,he lost in games that don't really matter,and in games that mattered he won. You can't overthrow JD based on just Proleague performances,because they are always lying. He lost in games that dont really matter? What? Am i missing something or there was only proleague where every game matters, MST where you cant be eliminated yet if you loose 1 game, but loosing to ganzi and being the best player doesnt go together, and you cant say game doesnt matter in MST.. Only GOM doesnt matter for me, but that is my personal opinion, and if you watch his games there they were nothing special, and he lost 1 game anyway.. You can't overthrow JD based on just Proleague performances,because they are always lying. WHAT? Everything counts, and MST and GOM is not only Proleague and how is Proleague performance lying? If there is only Proleague then you base your performance on proleague, or is better to say hmm he sux in proleague, but hey, this is false, we should base his performance on this invisible league where he should go 10:0 so he should be #1.. You just doesnt make sense.. Proleague is lying because there were many players who performed great in Proleague and sucked in MSL,OSL(Flash,Sea,Leta can be counted here too),and there were a lot of champions who sucked in Proleague(Luxury,Stork,Jaedong). I wanted to say that I will only count MST if he is eliminated. If he gets eliminated,he shouldn't be no1,but I couldn't care less if he qualifies 2:0 or 2:1.and lost to Ganzi,that is one game. He didn't play spectacular, or didn't do anything special but based on these games,you can't say yet that Fantasy or Bisu or Leta are better. And I care about Gom too,and he qualified there. Then you are just wrong, your logic is wrong.. Everything matters.. Every game counts or there is no point in power rank at all... And how did Jaedong sucked in proleague ? Or bisu ? Its up to them where they put priority like stork said when he won his OSL that he didnt actually practice against kal in MSL . Come to think of it, you are horribly horribly wrong.. When flash won his OSL he was also completely destroying everyone in the proleague.. Leta also didnt suck in Starleague and until starleague came he was destroying everyone in proleague, and loosing to a MSL champion doesnt mean he sucked in MSL.. Just stop please..
I didn't talk about the OSL Champion Flash,I talked about the Flash of the last three seasons,when he dominated the proleague,and got eliminated from both leagues in the early stages. I am going back more in the past. It just seems that you are just looking to places where you can attack my arguments. If every game matters why does FS say that he played like total ass in games that don't really matter? When Jaedong qualified in the Arena MSL finals,he lost a great amount of games in PL and his stats were like this,and he got 1st place. Bisu also wasn't known for his Proleague performances during his first two MSL victories. I am just saying that Starleagues are above Proleague,and since Jaedong wasn't eliminated from either of them, it would be wrong to drop him,because even the previous months matter. If I remember well,Jangbi was no1 because he was the only player who was consistent in the last three months leading to the Power Rank. The only person I could imagine being changed with JD right now is Fantasy,but even that is premature.
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On April 30 2009 18:09 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2009 17:45 Samurai- wrote:On April 30 2009 17:03 Darth Peter wrote:On April 30 2009 16:51 Samurai- wrote:On April 30 2009 16:39 Darth Peter wrote:On April 30 2009 16:15 Samurai- wrote:
Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi... Yeah but he hasn't been eliminated from either of the leagues. As Fakesteve says,he lost in games that don't really matter,and in games that mattered he won. You can't overthrow JD based on just Proleague performances,because they are always lying. He lost in games that dont really matter? What? Am i missing something or there was only proleague where every game matters, MST where you cant be eliminated yet if you loose 1 game, but loosing to ganzi and being the best player doesnt go together, and you cant say game doesnt matter in MST.. Only GOM doesnt matter for me, but that is my personal opinion, and if you watch his games there they were nothing special, and he lost 1 game anyway.. You can't overthrow JD based on just Proleague performances,because they are always lying. WHAT? Everything counts, and MST and GOM is not only Proleague and how is Proleague performance lying? If there is only Proleague then you base your performance on proleague, or is better to say hmm he sux in proleague, but hey, this is false, we should base his performance on this invisible league where he should go 10:0 so he should be #1.. You just doesnt make sense.. Proleague is lying because there were many players who performed great in Proleague and sucked in MSL,OSL(Flash,Sea,Leta can be counted here too),and there were a lot of champions who sucked in Proleague(Luxury,Stork,Jaedong). I wanted to say that I will only count MST if he is eliminated. If he gets eliminated,he shouldn't be no1,but I couldn't care less if he qualifies 2:0 or 2:1.and lost to Ganzi,that is one game. He didn't play spectacular, or didn't do anything special but based on these games,you can't say yet that Fantasy or Bisu or Leta are better. And I care about Gom too,and he qualified there. Then you are just wrong, your logic is wrong.. Everything matters.. Every game counts or there is no point in power rank at all... And how did Jaedong sucked in proleague ? Or bisu ? Its up to them where they put priority like stork said when he won his OSL that he didnt actually practice against kal in MSL . Come to think of it, you are horribly horribly wrong.. When flash won his OSL he was also completely destroying everyone in the proleague.. Leta also didnt suck in Starleague and until starleague came he was destroying everyone in proleague, and loosing to a MSL champion doesnt mean he sucked in MSL.. Just stop please.. I didn't talk about the OSL Champion Flash,I talked about the Flash of the last three seasons,when he dominated the proleague,and got eliminated from both leagues in the early stages. I am going back more in the past. It just seems that you are just looking to places where you can attack my arguments. If every game matters why does FS say that he played like total ass in games that don't really matter? When Jaedong qualified in the Arena MSL finals,he lost a great amount of games in PL and his stats were like this,and he got 1st place. Bisu also wasn't known for his Proleague performances during his first two MSL victories. I am just saying that Starleagues are above Proleague,and since Jaedong wasn't eliminated from either of them, it would be wrong to drop him,because even the previous months matter. If I remember well,Jangbi was no1 because he was the only player who was consistent in the last three months leading to the Power Rank. The only person I could imagine being changed with JD right now is Fantasy,but even that is premature.
Attack your arguments ? I could say it is you who attack mine, since you replied to my quotes.. Anyway. You said that Proleague results = lie. You cant say this holds for only few months, and only for certain players... It either holds or doesnt, and in your case it doesnt.. Yes every game matters but because of lack of time, they must prioritize, but the game still matters.. And if starleague are above proleague ( and i dont say its not, it probably should be, so it matters even more), as you say, then jeadong who lost to GANZI is even worse..
And there is a difference if you qualify 2:0 owning good people or qualify 2:1 barely beating people and loose to ganzi.. To me, jaedong just didnt show enough results to still be first.. But that is just me..
But since the rank is not up to me, i ll stop here..
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On April 30 2009 18:18 Samurai- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2009 18:09 Darth Peter wrote:On April 30 2009 17:45 Samurai- wrote:On April 30 2009 17:03 Darth Peter wrote:On April 30 2009 16:51 Samurai- wrote:On April 30 2009 16:39 Darth Peter wrote:On April 30 2009 16:15 Samurai- wrote:
Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi... Yeah but he hasn't been eliminated from either of the leagues. As Fakesteve says,he lost in games that don't really matter,and in games that mattered he won. You can't overthrow JD based on just Proleague performances,because they are always lying. He lost in games that dont really matter? What? Am i missing something or there was only proleague where every game matters, MST where you cant be eliminated yet if you loose 1 game, but loosing to ganzi and being the best player doesnt go together, and you cant say game doesnt matter in MST.. Only GOM doesnt matter for me, but that is my personal opinion, and if you watch his games there they were nothing special, and he lost 1 game anyway.. You can't overthrow JD based on just Proleague performances,because they are always lying. WHAT? Everything counts, and MST and GOM is not only Proleague and how is Proleague performance lying? If there is only Proleague then you base your performance on proleague, or is better to say hmm he sux in proleague, but hey, this is false, we should base his performance on this invisible league where he should go 10:0 so he should be #1.. You just doesnt make sense.. Proleague is lying because there were many players who performed great in Proleague and sucked in MSL,OSL(Flash,Sea,Leta can be counted here too),and there were a lot of champions who sucked in Proleague(Luxury,Stork,Jaedong). I wanted to say that I will only count MST if he is eliminated. If he gets eliminated,he shouldn't be no1,but I couldn't care less if he qualifies 2:0 or 2:1.and lost to Ganzi,that is one game. He didn't play spectacular, or didn't do anything special but based on these games,you can't say yet that Fantasy or Bisu or Leta are better. And I care about Gom too,and he qualified there. Then you are just wrong, your logic is wrong.. Everything matters.. Every game counts or there is no point in power rank at all... And how did Jaedong sucked in proleague ? Or bisu ? Its up to them where they put priority like stork said when he won his OSL that he didnt actually practice against kal in MSL . Come to think of it, you are horribly horribly wrong.. When flash won his OSL he was also completely destroying everyone in the proleague.. Leta also didnt suck in Starleague and until starleague came he was destroying everyone in proleague, and loosing to a MSL champion doesnt mean he sucked in MSL.. Just stop please.. I didn't talk about the OSL Champion Flash,I talked about the Flash of the last three seasons,when he dominated the proleague,and got eliminated from both leagues in the early stages. I am going back more in the past. It just seems that you are just looking to places where you can attack my arguments. If every game matters why does FS say that he played like total ass in games that don't really matter? When Jaedong qualified in the Arena MSL finals,he lost a great amount of games in PL and his stats were like this,and he got 1st place. Bisu also wasn't known for his Proleague performances during his first two MSL victories. I am just saying that Starleagues are above Proleague,and since Jaedong wasn't eliminated from either of them, it would be wrong to drop him,because even the previous months matter. If I remember well,Jangbi was no1 because he was the only player who was consistent in the last three months leading to the Power Rank. The only person I could imagine being changed with JD right now is Fantasy,but even that is premature. Attack your arguments ? I could say it is you who attack mine, since you replied to my quotes.. Anyway. You said that Proleague results = lie. You cant say this holds for only few months, and only for certain players... It either holds or doesnt, and in your case it doesnt.. Yes every game matters but because of lack of time, they must prioritize, but the game still matters.. And if starleague are above proleague ( and i dont say its not, it probably should be, so it matters even more), as you say, then jeadong who lost to GANZI is even worse.. And there is a difference if you qualify 2:0 owning good people or qualify 2:1 barely beating people and loose to ganzi.. To me, jaedong just didnt show enough results to still be first.. But that is just me.. But since the rank is not up to me, i ll stop here..
Fair enough.
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We have like another 15 days before the rank is out so speculating about ranks now is abit early imo.
If jaedong keeps 50% winningpercentage then ofcourse he can't be nr1 no matter what games he lose.
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On April 30 2009 19:17 StylishVODs wrote:
We have like another 15 days before the rank is out so speculating about ranks now is abit early imo.
If jaedong keeps 50% winningpercentage then ofcourse he can't be nr1 no matter what games he lose.
I admire your optimism, Stylish.
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Poll: The new PR will come out on:
(Vote): 1st - 3rd of May
(Vote): 4th - 6th of May
(Vote): 7th - 9th of May
(Vote): 10th - 15th of May
(Vote): later...
(Vote): in June
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In july when july will win 4-th osl
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offline OSL qualifiers spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +Jangbi lost to PuMa. "Who the fuck is PuMa?" you may ask. Well, he's a terran from eSTRO. Are you fucking kidding me? You can't be one of the best PvTers on the planet if you drop a Bo3 vs. a no name terran from eSTRO... Frankly, after a shitty month in proleague and now this, I'd drop Jangbi off the goddamn power rank.
Great lost to a no name terran from MBC (kkong).
Calm lost to HoGiL
I guess neither of these are killer or anything, but considering that ZerO, Effort, and TheZerg didn't choke in their groups and are still alive in the OSL, I think it gives them an upper hand in the new wave of up and coming Zergs.
sKyHigh lost to Canata. I suppose this isn't terrible, since Canata's a pretty damn respectable TvTer (57.14%), but it's definitely disappointing to me and I think will hurt his ranking.
Other people who scrubbed out:
Mind
HiyA
Free
ForGG
sAviOr
Sea
Nada
Much
Firebathero
sigh...
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On April 30 2009 17:03 Darth Peter wrote: And I care about Gom too,and he qualified there.
Say that to SKT1.
Since when did anyone have to qualify to play in GOM?
On May 02 2009 00:32 Mogwai wrote:offline OSL qualifiers spoiler: + Show Spoiler +Jangbi lost to PuMa. "Who the fuck is PuMa?" you may ask. Well, he's a terran from eSTRO. Are you fucking kidding me? You can't be one of the best PvTers on the planet if you drop a Bo3 vs. a no name terran from eSTRO... Frankly, after a shitty month in proleague and now this, I'd drop Jangbi off the goddamn power rank.
Great lost to a no name terran from MBC (kkong).
Calm lost to HoGiL
I guess neither of these are killer or anything, but considering that ZerO, Effort, and TheZerg didn't choke in their groups and are still alive in the OSL, I think it gives them an upper hand in the new wave of up and coming Zergs.
sKyHigh lost to Canata. I suppose this isn't terrible, since Canata's a pretty damn respectable TvTer (57.14%), but it's definitely disappointing to me and I think will hurt his ranking.
Other people who scrubbed out:
Mind
HiyA
Free
ForGG
sAviOr
Sea
Nada
Much
Firebathero
sigh...
Well if you do knock him off, then who's gonna take his place? A lot of other PRers have also basically dropped off the face of the Earth this month.
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On May 02 2009 08:46 SerpentFlame wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2009 17:03 Darth Peter wrote: And I care about Gom too,and he qualified there.
Say that to SKT1. Since when did anyone have to qualify to play in GOM? Show nested quote +On May 02 2009 00:32 Mogwai wrote:offline OSL qualifiers spoiler: + Show Spoiler +Jangbi lost to PuMa. "Who the fuck is PuMa?" you may ask. Well, he's a terran from eSTRO. Are you fucking kidding me? You can't be one of the best PvTers on the planet if you drop a Bo3 vs. a no name terran from eSTRO... Frankly, after a shitty month in proleague and now this, I'd drop Jangbi off the goddamn power rank.
Great lost to a no name terran from MBC (kkong).
Calm lost to HoGiL
I guess neither of these are killer or anything, but considering that ZerO, Effort, and TheZerg didn't choke in their groups and are still alive in the OSL, I think it gives them an upper hand in the new wave of up and coming Zergs.
sKyHigh lost to Canata. I suppose this isn't terrible, since Canata's a pretty damn respectable TvTer (57.14%), but it's definitely disappointing to me and I think will hurt his ranking.
Other people who scrubbed out:
Mind
HiyA
Free
ForGG
sAviOr
Sea
Nada
Much
Firebathero
sigh... Well if you do knock him off, then who's gonna take his place? A lot of other PRers have also basically dropped off the face of the Earth this month.
He beat Movie in Gom.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Next month imo we should see
#1 fantasy
#2 Jaedong
#3 Bisu
#4 Flash
#5 Zero
#6 Leta
+ others
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9070 Posts
On May 02 2009 22:14 Plexa wrote:
Next month imo we should see
#1 fantasy
#2 Jaedong
#3 Bisu
#4 Flash
#5 Zero
#6 Leta
+ others
Agreed.
But lets first see if JD and Flash will make it to the MSL. Not that I doubt it, but if one of them fails, I think it should be rank affecting
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I won't argue that Fantasy deserves to be first right now, but whenever a non-SL player is first on the PR, it just feels wrong to me. That's just a personal opinion, and should have no bearing on the ranking.
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Jaedong's few PL losses aren't that bad , but if he gets eliminated from the MSL then he should move down . Even if he lost to Ganzi you have to take note that Byzantinum is a bad map for zerg in both MUs . He still played a great third game against Movie crushing him when he was economicaly behind . Don't know maybe if he drops more games , but i still think he is the best player and others should show more results and dominance before overthrowing him ?
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Jaedong and Bisu are my two favorites:D
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i dont see the problem with losing 5 proleague games. savior never won many in his prime, bisu lost 99% of his proleague games during his rise, and shit like that. i dont mind putting fantasy above jaedong, but he shouldnt drop below 2 because of a handful of proleague games lost AFTER winning an OSL. winners curse and he is still winning games.
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On April 30 2009 16:15 Samurai- wrote:
Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi...
Give him a break, Ganzi is a Terran. We all know Terran > Zerg in history of SC so Jaedong has to fight an uphill battle. He can't win all the uphill battles
+ Show Spoiler +Just kidding but Terran mech TvZ is pretty imba imo
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On May 04 2009 07:18 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2009 16:15 Samurai- wrote:
Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi... Give him a break, Ganzi is a Terran. We all know Terran > Zerg in history of SC so Jaedong has to fight an uphill battle. He can't win all the uphill battles + Show Spoiler +Just kidding but Terran mech TvZ is pretty imba imo
oh god i was really happy to see you were joking.
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On May 04 2009 11:19 purple[time] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2009 07:18 AzureEye wrote:On April 30 2009 16:15 Samurai- wrote:
Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi... Give him a break, Ganzi is a Terran. We all know Terran > Zerg in history of SC so Jaedong has to fight an uphill battle. He can't win all the uphill battles + Show Spoiler +Just kidding but Terran mech TvZ is pretty imba imo oh god i was really happy to see you were joking.
I'm not joking about the mech part though. 34% winning rate for Zergs when they face mech is ridiculous
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On May 04 2009 11:48 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2009 11:19 purple[time] wrote:On May 04 2009 07:18 AzureEye wrote:On April 30 2009 16:15 Samurai- wrote:
Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi... Give him a break, Ganzi is a Terran. We all know Terran > Zerg in history of SC so Jaedong has to fight an uphill battle. He can't win all the uphill battles + Show Spoiler +Just kidding but Terran mech TvZ is pretty imba imo oh god i was really happy to see you were joking. I'm not joking about the mech part though. 34% winning rate for Zergs when they face mech is ridiculous
how did you get that figure of 34%? to my knowledge, it can't be seen from tlpd.
Also, how would you classify fantasy's game 1 medusa build against Jaedong in OSL finals? It was mech at the start to fend off mutas.. but then he transitioned to mnms + tanks
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On May 04 2009 13:05 Tyxiquale wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2009 11:48 AzureEye wrote:On May 04 2009 11:19 purple[time] wrote:On May 04 2009 07:18 AzureEye wrote:On April 30 2009 16:15 Samurai- wrote:
Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi... Give him a break, Ganzi is a Terran. We all know Terran > Zerg in history of SC so Jaedong has to fight an uphill battle. He can't win all the uphill battles + Show Spoiler +Just kidding but Terran mech TvZ is pretty imba imo oh god i was really happy to see you were joking. I'm not joking about the mech part though. 34% winning rate for Zergs when they face mech is ridiculous how did you get that figure of 34%? to my knowledge, it can't be seen from tlpd. Also, how would you classify fantasy's game 1 medusa build against Jaedong in OSL finals? It was mech at the start to fend off mutas.. but then he transitioned to mnms + tanks
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86679
Calculates the TvZ mech winning percentage to be like 67% or something close
I think Mech opening to fend mutas, then transitioning into bio / tanks is just as strong if not stronger. When T suddenly switches like that, Z might not have lurks ready which will screw him over. MnM eats up hydras and so do tanks. The powerful thing about Terran tech is not the power of the units themselves (very powerful nevertheless) but how much Z's unit composition has to change to adapt to it. Whether or not Z switches it up, going mass hydras, or mass mutas, MnM or mass goliaths/tanks are like jack-of-all trades, they can handle different things Z throws at it. It cannot be said the same for Z's units
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United States13143 Posts
On May 04 2009 13:24 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2009 13:05 Tyxiquale wrote:On May 04 2009 11:48 AzureEye wrote:On May 04 2009 11:19 purple[time] wrote:On May 04 2009 07:18 AzureEye wrote:On April 30 2009 16:15 Samurai- wrote:
Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi... Give him a break, Ganzi is a Terran. We all know Terran > Zerg in history of SC so Jaedong has to fight an uphill battle. He can't win all the uphill battles + Show Spoiler +Just kidding but Terran mech TvZ is pretty imba imo oh god i was really happy to see you were joking. I'm not joking about the mech part though. 34% winning rate for Zergs when they face mech is ridiculous how did you get that figure of 34%? to my knowledge, it can't be seen from tlpd. Also, how would you classify fantasy's game 1 medusa build against Jaedong in OSL finals? It was mech at the start to fend off mutas.. but then he transitioned to mnms + tanks http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86679Calculates the TvZ mech winning percentage to be like 67% or something close I think Mech opening to fend mutas, then transitioning into bio / tanks is just as strong if not stronger. When T suddenly switches like that, Z might not have lurks ready which will screw him over. MnM eats up hydras and so do tanks. The powerful thing about Terran tech is not the power of the units themselves (very powerful nevertheless) but how much Z's unit composition has to change to adapt to it. Whether or not Z switches it up, going mass hydras, or mass mutas, MnM or mass goliaths/tanks are like jack-of-all trades, they can handle different things Z throws at it. It cannot be said the same for Z's units
That was over 4 months ago now. Since then, zergs have figured out how to fight mech, and the winrate is much closer to 50-50 these days.
Mech into bio is a different story, but I don't think it's been used enough yet to really see how well it works on the pro level.
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On May 04 2009 16:08 raga4ka wrote:
I agree.
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On May 04 2009 15:13 Elyvilon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2009 13:24 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2009 13:05 Tyxiquale wrote:On May 04 2009 11:48 AzureEye wrote:On May 04 2009 11:19 purple[time] wrote:On May 04 2009 07:18 AzureEye wrote:On April 30 2009 16:15 Samurai- wrote:
Why would jaedong be #1 again?
Fantasy, Bisu, Flash and specially Leta are all showing stronger play... Jaedong showed nothing special this month since his OSL win was already counted for the previous month..
edit: he even lost to fucking ganzi... Give him a break, Ganzi is a Terran. We all know Terran > Zerg in history of SC so Jaedong has to fight an uphill battle. He can't win all the uphill battles + Show Spoiler +Just kidding but Terran mech TvZ is pretty imba imo oh god i was really happy to see you were joking. I'm not joking about the mech part though. 34% winning rate for Zergs when they face mech is ridiculous how did you get that figure of 34%? to my knowledge, it can't be seen from tlpd. Also, how would you classify fantasy's game 1 medusa build against Jaedong in OSL finals? It was mech at the start to fend off mutas.. but then he transitioned to mnms + tanks http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86679Calculates the TvZ mech winning percentage to be like 67% or something close I think Mech opening to fend mutas, then transitioning into bio / tanks is just as strong if not stronger. When T suddenly switches like that, Z might not have lurks ready which will screw him over. MnM eats up hydras and so do tanks. The powerful thing about Terran tech is not the power of the units themselves (very powerful nevertheless) but how much Z's unit composition has to change to adapt to it. Whether or not Z switches it up, going mass hydras, or mass mutas, MnM or mass goliaths/tanks are like jack-of-all trades, they can handle different things Z throws at it. It cannot be said the same for Z's units That was over 4 months ago now. Since then, zergs have figured out how to fight mech, and the winrate is much closer to 50-50 these days. Mech into bio is a different story, but I don't think it's been used enough yet to really see how well it works on the pro level.
Although I disagree that mech is imbalanced (new builds always cause a ripple before they're dealt with; Terran mech is not even new, it was used all the time in 2002/2003, where it then faded out of prominence due to being too weak, as opposed to too strong), there's no denying that the ability for a Terran to do both mech and bionic, with the ability to both integrate them and mix it up during games, has created a much more powerful and fearsome Terran v Zerg than the TvZ of 6 months ago; the zerg just has to deal with the possibility of so many more options from the Terran player.
Speaking of such terrans, how come Upmagic has never been on the CBNC list on the Power Rank in the recent months? His TvT is definitely S class (not only has he destroyed flash in some great sets in the OSL and the proleague, but his losses are never really him playing badly as opposed to his opponent playing excellently; his games are all brilliantly fun to watch as well). Upmagic's also sported a good record vs Zerg for the past half year, and he's shown some spectacular play last MSL/OSL.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 03 2009 02:27 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I won't argue that Fantasy deserves to be first right now, but whenever a non-SL player is first on the PR, it just feels wrong to me. That's just a personal opinion, and should have no bearing on the ranking.
If it were up to me Luxury and Jangbi would be CBNC this month
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On May 05 2009 21:10 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2009 02:27 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I won't argue that Fantasy deserves to be first right now, but whenever a non-SL player is first on the PR, it just feels wrong to me. That's just a personal opinion, and should have no bearing on the ranking. If it were up to me Luxury and Jangbi would be CBNC this month
+1
but who to put instead of them? 2 or even 3 others are certanely out too so, i dont know...
Steve doesnt know either, so he decided to skip the month, props to the smart ppl who voted "June" at the poll
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I wouldn't put Fantasy in 1st place, out of the 6 wins he's had, only 2 were tough opponents, Jaedong and Anytime
But then again, Jaedong is playing mediocore so no one is really qualified for the 1st place spot.
But then again...+ Show Spoiler +Fantasy just got raped by HoGil? Lmao
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every top player plays like shit recently... or just bad... even Fanta, he barely beat anytime, at a given time he had the game lost but somehow anytime messed up the micro and the scv's held off the attack. Not talking about Jangbi, Stork, Lux etc... JD barely has his record positive this month
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What about Bisu? Nobody is talking about him anymore,when he lost only one game,and that to a proxy hatchery,and has been owning everybody left and right,and qualified in the MSL easily, and he is near the top for the last three months,making him the only player to play consistantly for some time.
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On May 06 2009 05:27 Sprite wrote:Please Consider by.great for top 10
Yeah, by.great has been destroying everyone in proleague.
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horang2 has been doing really well, along with skyhigh.
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Bisu has the highest ELO and a 75% winning percentage since the beginning of the 2008-09 Proleague Season, the highest among all players. He's at the top of my list for best in SC.
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Norway1530 Posts
The only dragon not slumping atm
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Check Thursday 14th on the TL calendar xD
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9070 Posts
On May 08 2009 01:40 Geo.Rion wrote:
Check Thursday 14th on the TL calendar xD
haha ^^ thats cute. Hopefully he will make it for the sake of top notch MSL, but the map seems to be pretty good for PvZ as Bisu already pointed
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I think Plexa just copied it from the poster that posted the schedule in that thread. Sorry for so many pronouns.
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After today's matches, + Show Spoiler +Zer0 absolutly deserve a spot in the next PR :D
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Haha @ the next power ranking. I can't fucking wait.
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On May 08 2009 23:32 Aylear wrote:
Haha @ the next power ranking. I can't fucking wait.
Steve did not even tell a fake deadline to it, so dont get too excited it wont come out anytime soon
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nothing has been happening so you can't really make a ranknig
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On May 09 2009 16:16 jodogohoo wrote:
nothing has been happening so you can't really make a ranknig
Well its a bit outdated .... By.hero and Nada should drop out due to inactivity and have someone else replace them like Zero /Leta . Flash should move up , JangBi should drop out , Luxury should move down and thats about it .
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I wouldn't be abject to swapping Bisu and Jaedong, either, considering the general performance of both. I'm a bigger JD fan but he was doing pretty badly directly after the OSL title (Even given horrible map match ups, he still was losing to no names). Also wouldn't be peeved if he stayed #1.
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On May 09 2009 18:37 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2009 16:16 jodogohoo wrote:
nothing has been happening so you can't really make a ranknig Well its a bit outdated .... By.hero and Nada should drop out due to inactivity and have someone else replace them like Zero /Leta . Flash should move up , JangBi should drop out , Luxury should move down and thats about it .
Don't you think Jaedong should move down? Also I thought Flash lost a few games.
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On May 05 2009 21:10 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2009 02:27 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I won't argue that Fantasy deserves to be first right now, but whenever a non-SL player is first on the PR, it just feels wrong to me. That's just a personal opinion, and should have no bearing on the ranking. If it were up to me Luxury and Jangbi would be CBNC this month
Jangbi doesnt even deserve CNBC in my book.
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On May 10 2009 07:54 latent wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2009 18:37 raga4ka wrote:On May 09 2009 16:16 jodogohoo wrote:
nothing has been happening so you can't really make a ranknig Well its a bit outdated .... By.hero and Nada should drop out due to inactivity and have someone else replace them like Zero /Leta . Flash should move up , JangBi should drop out , Luxury should move down and thats about it . Don't you think Jaedong should move down? Also I thought Flash lost a few games.
Losing a few games doesn't really mean much compared to how terrible some people have been doing.
Some records since last PR:
Skyhigh 6-2
Jaedong 7-5
Bisu 7-1 (lost to great's proxy hatch on medusa)
Fantasy 6-1
Great 8-4
Flash 7-3
Leta 7-5
Calm 8-3
Zero 11-2
These all look pretty good compared to records like these:
Stork 4-4
Jangbi 2-7
Luxury 3-5 (2 wins being over a CJ B-teamer in ZvZ)
Nada 1-4
Light 3-5
I don't think putting Flash at 4 or 5 would be unwarranted, Bisu should be #1 though in my opinion and Fantasy #2.
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Give it a week though and I could see Jaedong holding his 1st place spot. He's got some redeeming to do for his midapril slump he always gets.
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Why should Bisu be above Fantasy? I see no reason.
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On May 10 2009 13:07 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Why should Bisu be above Fantasy? I see no reason.
Bisu was ranked above Fantasy last power rank, and nothing has happened since to differentiate them. That said, I think Bisu and Fantasy are interchangable in terms of goodness right now.
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On May 10 2009 13:07 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Why should Bisu be above Fantasy? I see no reason.
Well, I could see it going either way but I don't see much of a compelling reason to put Fantasy above Bisu either so I just figured it would make sense to leave him in the higher position.
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If we're basing the next power rank off of what has happened so far since the last one, then
+ Show Spoiler +Bisu winning today and Fantasy losing puts Bisu at the top
Also maybe you should mention Leta's 7-5 is really more of an 8-4 due to the pp DQ. And I think Jaedong's 7-5 just doesn't look that good when stacked next to those other top performers, especially considering the people he lost to.
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Yeah, following today, Bisu needs to be above Fantasy. Bisu has only lost to Great's proxy hatchery gayness since the last rank (I think). Fantasy has lost to both Hogil and Calm. Thats enough to have Bisu at least stay above Fantasy.
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POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR TODAYS MATCHES
I dont know about you, but i dont see Bisu playing insanely well. His play is damn strong, but he could have lost at least 2 more games, but his opponents were so surprised that they have a tremendous advantage over Beesuit that they eventually threw the game away (Backho, Shuttle). + As it was said in the interview after his loss vs Great, they prepared against proxy hatch, and this was not the first time it was used on the pro scene, so that's an entirely legitime loss for Bisu.
Fantasy? I dont see him playing that well either, his bio fails every time, he beat JD since the last PR, but that's all, barely, barely overcome Anytime, and raped some lesser players (frozean, zergbong, everyone is joking with their names etc).
JD had a bad april month, but he's back again and during his "minislump" nothing crucial happened. He's in all of the Leauges, OZ is still first. I don't think he should be dropped just because another player or two done better in the PL. Fantasy right now just cannot be first, he's on 2 game losing streak ffs.
some zergs who done really well in the past month: Zero, Effort, Calm
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Barring some ridic fail from bisu in his upcoming match, I don't think Jaedong will remain on top. He's easily third though. Maybe second even.
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wait what, your arguement is bisu almost/could have lost some games he won but didnt so he isnt that good and jaedong lost a heap of games but they werent important?
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I don't like the PR since there's so much pointless arguing.
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On May 10 2009 15:12 latent wrote:If we're basing the next power rank off of what has happened so far since the last one, then + Show Spoiler +Bisu winning today and Fantasy losing puts Bisu at the top . Also maybe you should mention Leta's 7-5 is really more of an 8-4 due to the pp DQ. And I think Jaedong's 7-5 just doesn't look that good when stacked next to those other top performers, especially considering the people he lost to.
How can Leta's 7-5 become an 8-4? I know the DQ decision was retarded, but he wasn't even winning that game.
Anyway, for top 3 I can see:
1. Jaedong
2. Bisu
3. Fantasy
JD lost a few games, but he's back in shape now, imo.
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On May 10 2009 15:43 Lachrymose wrote:
wait what, your arguement is bisu almost/could have lost some games he won but didnt so he isnt that good and jaedong lost a heap of games but they werent important?
wait, my argument was that his PLAY did not look unbetable at all, not that his 7-1 should be 5-3 or sg like that.
And yes, JD's games werent that important. And if you follow the PR's history players dont move down that fast because a couple unexpected losses. SL winners are always favored even a month after they won the title
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On May 10 2009 15:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I don't like the PR since there's so much pointless arguing.
A lot of ppl dont like either, the strategy they use is to not read and not post here. Let those noobies who like arguing about pointless stuff "enjoy" their time.
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De4ngus Leta was winning that match... that's a major reason everyone was so upset about the DQ.
IIRC he took out Kal's reaver and was well in the lead.
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On May 10 2009 15:12 latent wrote:If we're basing the next power rank off of what has happened so far since the last one, then + Show Spoiler +Bisu winning today and Fantasy losing puts Bisu at the top . Also maybe you should mention Leta's 7-5 is really more of an 8-4 due to the pp DQ. And I think Jaedong's 7-5 just doesn't look that good when stacked next to those other top performers, especially considering the people he lost to.
Jaedong lost 1 game to Fantasy , Movie and a ZvZ to Hyvva thoes are the games that carry the bigger weight . His other loss to Movie is meaningless since he eliminated him from GOM and the game against Ganzi was somewhat bad , but you have to take note that Byzantinum 3 is what 10 -1 in favour of terrans ? This loss will also be meaningless if Jaedong makes it out of the MST . The gap is close between the top players , but it is still to early to tell who is on top unless someone makes a bigger blunder then the other .
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Valhalla18444 Posts
hey guys
i'm gonna get someone else to take over this column for a while. i'm working the weekend again and it's pretty obvious i don't have the time necessary to give the power rank the care it deserves.
i will try my best to find a replacement i feel is both qualified and entertaining enough to fill these shoes, but for now, i can't be reliable enough with this to do it myself
i will say that given how everyone has played over the last month, there is absolutely no choice but fantasy for #1.
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On May 10 2009 15:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I don't like the PR since there's so much pointless arguing.
Yeah, curse people passionately debating StarCraft and their foul creating of healthy opposition and non-conformity.
I read and enjoy the Power Rank, even when I feel someone on it is misplaced for that particular month. To not enjoy an arbitrary list because people debate it? I'm not sure what you want from the Power Rank, but you need to re-evaluate your priorities.
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On May 10 2009 19:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
hey guys
i'm gonna get someone else to take over this column for a while. i'm working the weekend again and it's pretty obvious i don't have the time necessary to give the power rank the care it deserves.
i will try my best to find a replacement i feel is both qualified and entertaining enough to fill these shoes, but for now, i can't be reliable enough with this to do it myself
i will say that given how everyone has played over the last month, there is absolutely no choice but fantasy for #1.
im really curious how you figure that not only has fantasy more than bisu at all, not only has he done enough more than bisu to pass him but he has done so much more than bisu you have no choice but to put fantasy ahead? o_O
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Valhalla18444 Posts
i'm glad you know how to use tlpd but that isn't how the power rank is decided. fantasy is the best player in the world right now, it's pretty clear-cut. bisu is playing average games against average opponents and winning, fantasy is playing brilliantly.
edit: I should clarify this, because I don't mean to say Bisu's play is comparable to 'the average protoss'. Bisu is definitely the clear choice for #2 (sorry jaedong fans, he's started using 2hatch muta as a crutch lately - his play is uncharacteristically weak these days), I simply meant that he is playing average relative to his own skill level. Nothing he's doing lately is particularily incredible, and fantasy is outshining him in nearly every aspect of gameplay. Bisu's a damned good Protoss, but we have a player pushing the envelope and displaying new, terrifyingly effective applications of old ideas, as well as fresh innovations. There's just no comparison right now between the two.
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On May 11 2009 00:15 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
i'm glad you know how to use tlpd but that isn't how the power rank is decided. fantasy is the best player in the world right now, it's pretty clear-cut. bisu is playing average games against average opponents and winning, fantasy is playing brilliantly.
and he's on a 2 loss streak, if Bisu's opponents were averege what do you say about Fantasy's(Frozean, Zergbong, slumping players). His best win was against JD, and JD showed he's the better player in the recent OSL finals, how does 1 bo1 change this much? I'm not impressed with him at all.
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I hope Hot_Bid or Mani does the next PR.
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I really disagree with fantasy as best player right now
He can contest for it, but there is no way he is out and out number 1 player
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On May 11 2009 00:15 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
i'm glad you know how to use tlpd but that isn't how the power rank is decided. fantasy is the best player in the world right now, it's pretty clear-cut. bisu is playing average games against average opponents and winning, fantasy is playing brilliantly.
edit: I should clarify this, because I don't mean to say Bisu's play is comparable to 'the average protoss'. Bisu is definitely the clear choice for #2 (sorry jaedong fans, he's started using 2hatch muta as a crutch lately - his play is uncharacteristically weak these days), I simply meant that he is playing average relative to his own skill level. Nothing he's doing lately is particularily incredible, and fantasy is outshining him in nearly every aspect of gameplay. Bisu's a damned good Protoss, but we have a player pushing the envelope and displaying new, terrifyingly effective applications of old ideas, as well as fresh innovations. There's just no comparison right now between the two.
Other than Jaedong, they are playing the same type of oppenents, more or less, but Bisu has more wins. If Bisu is just playing averagely compared to his own skill, and won every game except vs Great's proxy hatch, and Fantasy is playing brilliantly but with less wins and more losses, how does that make Fantasy above him?
I just don't see a reason for Fantasy above Bisu right now, considering his past 2 games.
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the reason he's doing it is because the OSL finals were in the early part of last month and fantasy lost 2-3. I still dont think fantasy was the strongest player that month....I hope Leta finally gerts the spot he deserves (Mani placed him (deservingly) at first once and he's been pretty much gone from the rank since.
Skyhigh also deserves a fairly high spot, as of course do bisu and jaedong. Flash also had a fairly good month, and I dont think its fair to double-punish a player for getting eliminated from leagues in the past month.
I feel that the Power rank has become too much about who won the individual league that month, and not enough about who is actually the most powerful player.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
jesus
you guys watch fantasy's games and bisu's games and you don't see a CLEAR difference?
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Well, one thing I notice in Fantasy's games, is he seems to type GG more often.
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I think Bisu should be above fantasy because of his horrendous understanding of bio tvz he showed in the last two games.
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On May 11 2009 02:41 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jesus
you guys watch fantasy's games and bisu's games and you don't see a CLEAR difference?
Did you see Fantasy non mech last 2 TvZs?
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Don't ruin the surprise. Shh...
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I think Fantasy is definitely playing more creatively and seems to be trying harder than the other 3 players currently at the top or close to it (J.B.F., if you know what I mean. Jangbi is in a hole crying right now, btw.). When he wins against weaker players like Frozean, who isn't the noobiest of the pros but isn't someone you brag about beating either, he does it with extra flair because of that. However, as others have mentioned, his last few games where he played bio were an eyesore. Bio should be the foundation of Terran in TvZ, despite the mech "revolution," especially since so many new maps are coming out that are unfavorable for mech (at least I think so, I could be wrong). Being bested by what we would expect to be inferior players to Fantasy is not something to be taken lightly.
Of course, Fantasy is a monster, pushing Jaedong just as far as Bisu did in their series, except in an OSL finals setting (more impressive obviously). But that was THEN. At this moment, I would not put him above Bisu, because even if Bisu isn't working as hard as Fantasy and therefore does not look as deadly against lesser opponents, he is getting better results and I don't think it's a sign of lack of skill when he doesn't pour his heart out into a game that he can win by being more conservative. Bisu is a weathered progamer, he seems to be pacing himself in my eyes. Or he's just cocky. Either way, his play did not have the same fatal endings that Fantasy's TvZ did.
1. Bisu
2. Fantasy
The rest, I honestly have no idea. Lux and Jangbi probably off the list, Flash still on it, maybe add Zero (eh).
Let me know what you think, Steve?
P.S.: Good luck to the next PR writer!
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I'm sure all of the top players (Flash/Bisu/JD/Fantasy) are working as hard as ever but the difference is how they focus their time. Fantasy probably is devoting more time to new strategies and such.
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On May 11 2009 04:26 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I'm sure all of the top players (Flash/Bisu/JD/Fantasy) are working as hard as ever but the difference is how they focus their time. Fantasy probably is devoting more time to new strategies and such.
That's a fair point. I guess that's what I meant by trying harder.
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I really love how people are discussing stats and everything but... would you please just watch the games?
Watch fantasy's last 10 and Bisu's last 10. Can you seriously tell me that Bisu's play is looking stronger? fantasy is more creative, smart and deadly right now.
Also the "Bisu is just playing as good as he is forced too, etc. blah" argument doesn't count, because a player's strength is not measured by how well he COULD have played if he wanted to, but by what he has actually SHOWN.
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Um, by watching their last 10 games, Bisu is playing better, since Fantasy really sucked it up in the last two games.
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On May 11 2009 06:42 Mooncat wrote:
I really love how people are discussing stats and everything but... would you please just watch the games?
Watch fantasy's last 10 and Bisu's last 10. Can you seriously tell me that Bisu's play is looking stronger? fantasy is more creative, smart and deadly right now.
Also the "Bisu is just playing as good as he is forced too, etc. blah" argument doesn't count, because a player's strength is not measured by how well he COULD have played if he wanted to, but by what he has actually SHOWN.
Why go all-out like he did vs. Jaedong when fighting scrubs?
Even then, playing against weaker players makes it hard to play top-of-the-line revolutionary omfg style.
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Jaedong should only lose #1 if he is eliminated from MSL. No champion practices the week after OSL finals anyway, give credit where it's due
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I don't know what you mean when you say Bisu's games demonstrate weakness. He consistently demonstrates an ability to multi-task head and shoulders above his competition. Even if he makes mistakes he subsequently turns it up a notch and rolls over his opponent.
Let's look at Fantasy. He has wins against *zergbong*, *Frozean*, and Anytime. As much as I love Anytime, he's *2-8* in his last 10. I don't understand how you can talk about the "creativity" of Fantasy's wins against such low quality players.
Now look at who Bisu has won against. We're talking about Sair, Calm, Light, Zero, Leta!!! These are no pushovers. They're all recognizable high-quality competitors. Bisu absolutely demolished his zerg opponents, including his mini-nemesis Zero. They never even had a chance. His game against Light was so multi-tasking intensive I doubt any Protoss besides Bisu could have pulled out the win. He just beat someone whose only 2 losses against Protoss have been against Bisu. Shouldn't that be enough to put the Revolutionist on top?
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9070 Posts
Man, I dont know about fantasy #1. I just dont feel he is the best atm. Thou he is indeed showing very impressive play and some of his games are just eye-candies, but he lack the consistency of Bisu and KTY is still without a doubt the ace card in the SKT house. I would rather have JD on the top for another month, fantasy is just not there yet
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On May 11 2009 02:41 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jesus
you guys watch fantasy's games and bisu's games and you don't see a CLEAR difference?
Yeah, Bisu plays characteristically, Fantasy can't even pull off preschool bionic half the time. :>
Fantasy hasn't been any more particularly impressive than when he trashed Bisu 0:3. As a matter of fact, I'd say while he's performing adequately, his in-game play is just his normal routine. He hasn't become some amazing juggernaut you're making him out to be -- not anymore than he was in april. And while that could put him in front of Jaedong who started to slump in april (as per usual), it's no excuse to put him past Bisu who is on a really good tear in PL.
I don't have a problem with JD dropping to third (even though his last two games showed a little bit of that luster he used to have, good ol May rejuvination), but saying fantasy has somehow surpassed Bisu decisively is a little silly, considering Fantasy's losses in PL lately.
I'd also like to clarify, I *really* dislike Bisu and his overly annoying fanbase, much more than I dislike Fantasy, but I have no delusions that Bisu has been playing tougher opponents and getting more wins.
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I think Bisu should be #1 honestly.
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If anyone should take the #1 spot from Jaedong...that's Bisu.
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I can't believe how underrated creativity is these days.
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I'm pretty sure this is the power rank, and not the creativity rank.
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On May 11 2009 13:25 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I'm pretty sure this is the power rank, and not the creativity rank.
QFT.
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Maybe no one should be number 1 and it should just be left blank.
I know that isn't going to happen but that's kind of how I feel about it right now.
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On May 11 2009 15:46 Scamp wrote:
Maybe no one should be number 1 and it should just be left blank.
I know that isn't going to happen but that's kind of how I feel about it right now.
Not really. Bisu is playing much better than Fantasy. I don't care how creative Fantasy's play is. Bisu is still the better player right now. Like someone said, this is the power rank, not the creativity rank. Also, Steve said to watch the games, and after watching Fantasy fail epically trying to go bio, TWICE, I don't know why the heck he should be above Bisu, who only lost to the great contain with sick obs sniping.
Speaking of Great, that guy deserves at least #10. He's the only one keeping Samsung alive at the moment, and the only one who took a game off of Bisu since the last PR. He was also on a 6 game win streak until he randomly lost a ZvZ yesterday.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
I'm really glad none of you have any chance at taking over the PR in my absence
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On May 11 2009 16:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I'm really glad none of you have any chance at taking over the PR in my absence
Even after the last 2 bio games you think that Fantasy is a scarier, more well-rounded, and more unbeatable opponent than Bisu?
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Steve you hate being wrong, But if you are going to dodge Fantasy's last 2 games you can dodge JDs mini losses this month. Seriously, if JD doesnt deserve no1, the only person that deserves it is Bisu. Watch the games again and think of it, Bisu played sloppy in some games,like the game vs Backho, but what matters is that he wins. Also take the fact that JD has gom to practice for too, which both the SKT players do not have. The only thing that has happened is that these current big 3 are plowing through no names with JD and Fantasy dropping games. Bisu only dropped 1 game to an excellent strategy. Bisu isnt playing at his best but he is still winning games and IS the undisputed best PvP and PvZ for quite a while now.
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I seriously don't see how you can say Fantasy is CLEARLY better than Bisu. For one, the quality of opponents Bisu has been beating is better than the non-Jaedong opponents Fantasy has been beating. Secondly, Fantasy has more losses than Bisu, who has only lost to that gay Proxy-Hatch from Great. And those more losses than Fantasy has over Bisu show possible big holes in his Bio TvZ play (which is essential for Terran).
I do respect Steve's opinion with these things, but I really would like to see his justification for Fantasy>Bisu. It just doesn't make sense.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 11 2009 16:56 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 16:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I'm really glad none of you have any chance at taking over the PR in my absence Even after the last 2 bio games you think that Fantasy is a scarier, more well-rounded, and more unbeatable opponent than Bisu?
you think that two inconsequential losses from a player who created and uses heavily modified mech builds that are safe and effective rather than upmagic and every other terran''s style of hoping to catch the zerg with their pants down...
you think those two losses mean more than the other games he's played lately?
this is why i said i'm glad. anything i say goes in one ear and out the other with you guys, but you won't watch the games themselves, or if you do, you don't understand what you're seeing. No one is playing anywhere near Fantasy's level right now and it's a damn shame that so many people have forgotten what makes a great player great. it sure as hell ain't proleague statistics.
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On May 11 2009 19:52 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 16:56 fanatacist wrote:On May 11 2009 16:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I'm really glad none of you have any chance at taking over the PR in my absence Even after the last 2 bio games you think that Fantasy is a scarier, more well-rounded, and more unbeatable opponent than Bisu? you think that two inconsequential losses from a player who created and uses heavily modified mech builds that are safe and effective rather than upmagic and every other terran''s style of hoping to catch the zerg with their pants down... you think those two losses mean more than the other games he's played lately? this is why i said i'm glad. anything i say goes in one ear and out the other with you guys, but you won't watch the games themselves, or if you do, you don't understand what you're seeing. No one is playing anywhere near Fantasy's level right now and it's a damn shame that so many people have forgotten what makes a great player great. it sure as hell ain't proleague statistics.
Inconsequental losses? If those are inconsequential losses,than Jaedongs's are as well,and Bisu's sloppy plays against Backho and Shuttle and Light. Everything is inconsequential. I am sorry to say,but for the first time you don't make any sense. I am glad that you don't write the PR as well.
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On May 11 2009 19:52 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 16:56 fanatacist wrote:On May 11 2009 16:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I'm really glad none of you have any chance at taking over the PR in my absence Even after the last 2 bio games you think that Fantasy is a scarier, more well-rounded, and more unbeatable opponent than Bisu? you think that two inconsequential losses from a player who created and uses heavily modified mech builds that are safe and effective rather than upmagic and every other terran''s style of hoping to catch the zerg with their pants down... you think those two losses mean more than the other games he's played lately? this is why i said i'm glad. anything i say goes in one ear and out the other with you guys, but you won't watch the games themselves, or if you do, you don't understand what you're seeing. No one is playing anywhere near Fantasy's level right now and it's a damn shame that so many people have forgotten what makes a great player great. it sure as hell ain't proleague statistics.
"The problem with the world is that stupid people are absolutely sure about everyting, and smart people are doubting all the time" (I guess ^^)<- translated from a hungarian proverb, i dont know how good it sounds.
Those heavily modified mech opneings result in bio or biomech armies, so for a player liek him mnm control would be important i guess. I dont know how you watch the games, but please name 3 sets from the last month which were outstandingly good from fantasy. One of them should be against JD, that was great from Fanta, but JD did not play as good as he could have either. And he proved he can beat him in a bo5. I'm curious about the other 2 sets you will mention. Please dont disappoint me and say the game vs Anytime on Outsider.
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On May 11 2009 19:52 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 16:56 fanatacist wrote:On May 11 2009 16:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I'm really glad none of you have any chance at taking over the PR in my absence Even after the last 2 bio games you think that Fantasy is a scarier, more well-rounded, and more unbeatable opponent than Bisu? you think that two inconsequential losses from a player who created and uses heavily modified mech builds that are safe and effective rather than upmagic and every other terran''s style of hoping to catch the zerg with their pants down... you think those two losses mean more than the other games he's played lately? this is why i said i'm glad. anything i say goes in one ear and out the other with you guys, but you won't watch the games themselves, or if you do, you don't understand what you're seeing. No one is playing anywhere near Fantasy's level right now and it's a damn shame that so many people have forgotten what makes a great player great. it sure as hell ain't proleague statistics.
The mech builds fantasy uses are not safe . They are still vulnerable as Jaedong showed in the OSL final the last 3 games ended in 10 minutes each . There are precise timings that zerg can abuse with both lings , hydras or mutas to do damage . It's also map dependent otherwise fantasy will not have gone direct bio in his last 2 games and lost . If the vulture harras doesn't do as much damage the zerg can stil proside to the macro game and win like the recent effort vs Flash game .
I'm not convinced that Fantasy is the best player right now he hasn't shown that much after his OSL finals . I think Bisu is a more of a candidate for the top spot then him . Need to see more of fantasy to be convinced . His TvZ isn't top notch imo even with his ''brilliant'' mech builds he is still an avarage TvZer in my mind . Leta and Flash are better TvZers then him , also Leta's wraiths in to bio while not new seems to have as good or better results . Need to see more of fantasy to consider him the top player . Even if fantasy has created a modern mech build that doesn't meen he is playing better starcraft then the other top players .
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9070 Posts
people have forgotten what makes a great player great.
hmm, really? I remember,like 2 years ago, Federer doing just enough to beat his opponents in the early stages of the tournaments. You see, he was doing nothing spectacular, yet he still seemed unbeatable by all these average guys. But when it was about a really important match in the further stages of the tournament Fed really started to push things. My point is what makes a great player great is the ability not to lose games, no matter how good or focused his play was. With that being said fantasy is just fireworks and candies atm, yes, he is entertaining but that doesnt make him the best player atm.
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On May 11 2009 21:36 disciple wrote:hmm, really? I remember,like 2 years ago, Federer doing just enough to beat his opponents in the early stages of the tournaments. You see, he was doing nothing spectacular, yet he still seemed unbeatable by all these average guys. But when it was about a really important match in the further stages of the tournament Fed really started to push things. My point is what makes a great player great is the ability not to lose games, no matter how good or focused his play was. With that being said fantasy is just fireworks and candies atm, yes, he is entertaining but that doesnt make him the best player atm.
For once i agree with disciple . I would rather have Bisu or Jaedong staying at the top . Fantasy isn't as consistent as them he may as well get eliminated by tempest again in the MSL we need more games to see from him imo . There is no spark of dominance when i see him play , even if he sometimes plays brilliant its not that often .
Also your last month's arguments why Bisu should be above fantasy and this month's are completely different and don't make any sence to me .
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Since the last PR was post on April 10th
Jaedong has gone 7-5, with 5 of these wins in his best matchup ZvZ. He lost a ZvZ, and lost to players the caliber of ganzi and movie.
Fantasy has gone 6-2 with win over Sea and Jaedong himself, however with lossed to rising Zerg stars, Calm and Hogil
Bisu has gone 8-1 with a loss to cheese from By.Great. He be beat players the likes of Light, Calm, Zero, and Leta, all of whom have been playing very well.
Make of that what you will.....
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9070 Posts
On May 11 2009 21:41 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 21:36 disciple wrote: people have forgotten what makes a great player great. hmm, really? I remember,like 2 years ago, Federer doing just enough to beat his opponents in the early stages of the tournaments. You see, he was doing nothing spectacular, yet he still seemed unbeatable by all these average guys. But when it was about a really important match in the further stages of the tournament Fed really started to push things. My point is what makes a great player great is the ability not to lose games, no matter how good or focused his play was. With that being said fantasy is just fireworks and candies atm, yes, he is entertaining but that doesnt make him the best player atm. For once i agree with disciple .
lol :D I'm actually with you on most of the things you post with the exception of the stuff about Luxury. He sucks, man
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On May 11 2009 21:48 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 21:41 raga4ka wrote:On May 11 2009 21:36 disciple wrote: people have forgotten what makes a great player great. hmm, really? I remember,like 2 years ago, Federer doing just enough to beat his opponents in the early stages of the tournaments. You see, he was doing nothing spectacular, yet he still seemed unbeatable by all these average guys. But when it was about a really important match in the further stages of the tournament Fed really started to push things. My point is what makes a great player great is the ability not to lose games, no matter how good or focused his play was. With that being said fantasy is just fireworks and candies atm, yes, he is entertaining but that doesnt make him the best player atm. For once i agree with disciple . lol :D I'm actually with you on most of the things you post with the exception of the stuff about Luxury. He sucks, man
This month he sucks , but i think he deserved his second place last month .
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On May 11 2009 20:51 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 19:52 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 11 2009 16:56 fanatacist wrote:On May 11 2009 16:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I'm really glad none of you have any chance at taking over the PR in my absence Even after the last 2 bio games you think that Fantasy is a scarier, more well-rounded, and more unbeatable opponent than Bisu? you think that two inconsequential losses from a player who created and uses heavily modified mech builds that are safe and effective rather than upmagic and every other terran''s style of hoping to catch the zerg with their pants down... you think those two losses mean more than the other games he's played lately? this is why i said i'm glad. anything i say goes in one ear and out the other with you guys, but you won't watch the games themselves, or if you do, you don't understand what you're seeing. No one is playing anywhere near Fantasy's level right now and it's a damn shame that so many people have forgotten what makes a great player great. it sure as hell ain't proleague statistics. Inconsequental losses? If those are inconsequential losses,than Jaedongs's are as well,and Bisu's sloppy plays against Backho and Shuttle and Light. Everything is inconsequential. I am sorry to say,but for the first time you don't make any sense. I am glad that you don't write the PR as well.
Is this a joke? Lol.
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On May 11 2009 22:05 iCCup.d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 20:51 Darth Peter wrote:On May 11 2009 19:52 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 11 2009 16:56 fanatacist wrote:On May 11 2009 16:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I'm really glad none of you have any chance at taking over the PR in my absence Even after the last 2 bio games you think that Fantasy is a scarier, more well-rounded, and more unbeatable opponent than Bisu? you think that two inconsequential losses from a player who created and uses heavily modified mech builds that are safe and effective rather than upmagic and every other terran''s style of hoping to catch the zerg with their pants down... you think those two losses mean more than the other games he's played lately? this is why i said i'm glad. anything i say goes in one ear and out the other with you guys, but you won't watch the games themselves, or if you do, you don't understand what you're seeing. No one is playing anywhere near Fantasy's level right now and it's a damn shame that so many people have forgotten what makes a great player great. it sure as hell ain't proleague statistics. Inconsequental losses? If those are inconsequential losses,than Jaedongs's are as well,and Bisu's sloppy plays against Backho and Shuttle and Light. Everything is inconsequential. I am sorry to say,but for the first time you don't make any sense. I am glad that you don't write the PR as well. Is this a joke? Lol.
He said he is not going to write the PR because of RL problems,so he will find somebody qualified. If you already knew that please tell me what was so funny about my post because my explaining in English is not the best,and if you point out what's funny,perhaps I can rephrase it.
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On May 11 2009 21:44 Neptuneajax wrote:
Since the last PR was post on April 10th
Jaedong has gone 7-5, with 5 of these wins in his best matchup ZvZ. He lost a ZvZ, and lost to players the caliber of ganzi and movie.
Fantasy has gone 6-2 with win over Sea and Jaedong himself, however with lossed to rising Zerg stars, Calm and Hogil
Bisu has gone 8-1 with a loss to cheese from By.Great. He be beat players the likes of Light, Calm, Zero, and Leta, all of whom have been playing very well.
Make of that what you will.....
Fantasy 8raxed Sea in his nat, granted Bisu cheesed Leta too, but has been winging and pulling things out and winning.
Also to Steve about creativity:
Isnt Leta's TvZ something more original and powerful that Fantasy ever does, and it is his own build that no one else can mimic as well. Make fun of Upmagic as much as you want, but he has helped modify Fantasy's build after incruit to create the standard TvZ build that was used last season. I am not talking about the vult harass into Valk/M&M, but the build where you go speed vults to harass and pressure into Mass Goli, few tanks. JD's new response to the mech build, the 2hat Den/Muta seems to be doing well against all of fantasy's mech variations, including the Valk/M&M build where Z counters by massing lurkers to counter. Shouldnt Jaedong get credit for providing a powerful counter for Zs to the build instead of using 3hat everytime?
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On May 11 2009 22:37 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 21:44 Neptuneajax wrote:
Since the last PR was post on April 10th
Jaedong has gone 7-5, with 5 of these wins in his best matchup ZvZ. He lost a ZvZ, and lost to players the caliber of ganzi and movie.
Fantasy has gone 6-2 with win over Sea and Jaedong himself, however with lossed to rising Zerg stars, Calm and Hogil
Bisu has gone 8-1 with a loss to cheese from By.Great. He be beat players the likes of Light, Calm, Zero, and Leta, all of whom have been playing very well.
Make of that what you will..... Fantasy 8raxed Sea in his nat, granted Bisu cheesed Leta too, but has been winging and pulling things out and winning. Also to Steve about creativity: Isnt Leta's TvZ something more original and powerful that Fantasy ever does, and it is his own build that no one else can mimic as well. Make fun of Upmagic as much as you want, but he has helped modify Fantasy's build after incruit to create the standard TvZ build that was used last season. I am not talking about the vult harass into Valk/M&M, but the build where you go speed vults to harass and pressure into Mass Goli, few tanks. JD's new response to the mech build, the 2hat Den/Muta seems to be doing well against all of fantasy's mech variations, including the Valk/M&M build where Z counters by massing lurkers to counter. Shouldnt Jaedong get credit for providing a powerful counter for Zs to the build instead of using 3hat everytime?
exactly
also, how is movie a bad player and hogil a rising star ?
As I've said earlier, Imho, if JD loses the #1 spot, then Bisu should take it.
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On May 11 2009 22:11 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 22:05 iCCup.d(O.o)a wrote:On May 11 2009 20:51 Darth Peter wrote:On May 11 2009 19:52 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 11 2009 16:56 fanatacist wrote:On May 11 2009 16:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I'm really glad none of you have any chance at taking over the PR in my absence Even after the last 2 bio games you think that Fantasy is a scarier, more well-rounded, and more unbeatable opponent than Bisu? you think that two inconsequential losses from a player who created and uses heavily modified mech builds that are safe and effective rather than upmagic and every other terran''s style of hoping to catch the zerg with their pants down... you think those two losses mean more than the other games he's played lately? this is why i said i'm glad. anything i say goes in one ear and out the other with you guys, but you won't watch the games themselves, or if you do, you don't understand what you're seeing. No one is playing anywhere near Fantasy's level right now and it's a damn shame that so many people have forgotten what makes a great player great. it sure as hell ain't proleague statistics. Inconsequental losses? If those are inconsequential losses,than Jaedongs's are as well,and Bisu's sloppy plays against Backho and Shuttle and Light. Everything is inconsequential. I am sorry to say,but for the first time you don't make any sense. I am glad that you don't write the PR as well. Is this a joke? Lol. He said he is not going to write the PR because of RL problems,so he will find somebody qualified. If you already knew that please tell me what was so funny about my post because my explaining in English is not the best,and if you point out what's funny,perhaps I can rephrase it.
You said you don't write which implies that the person does not write them IE somebody else does. He most certainly writes PR's simply not this next one.
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On May 11 2009 13:25 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I'm pretty sure this is the power rank, and not the creativity rank.
"Power?" Why is seperate from ELO then? Hmm? Because statistics alone aren't what makes a player great.
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On May 12 2009 03:03 Nylan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 13:25 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I'm pretty sure this is the power rank, and not the creativity rank. "Power?" Why is seperate from ELO then? Hmm? Because statistics alone aren't what makes a player great.
Because ELO totally ignores how they play, you can play godly without too much creativity. And the ELO ranking is way off in some cases, for example just look at Iris, he's 7th or so, and players who are on a roll in the PL aren't even in the top 10/20/30 like Hogil and many others
But this has been discussed for one million times already, Power rank does not have that much to do with ELO, and nothing to do with Kespa rankings
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On May 12 2009 02:35 iCCup.d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 22:11 Darth Peter wrote:On May 11 2009 22:05 iCCup.d(O.o)a wrote:On May 11 2009 20:51 Darth Peter wrote:On May 11 2009 19:52 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 11 2009 16:56 fanatacist wrote:On May 11 2009 16:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I'm really glad none of you have any chance at taking over the PR in my absence Even after the last 2 bio games you think that Fantasy is a scarier, more well-rounded, and more unbeatable opponent than Bisu? you think that two inconsequential losses from a player who created and uses heavily modified mech builds that are safe and effective rather than upmagic and every other terran''s style of hoping to catch the zerg with their pants down... you think those two losses mean more than the other games he's played lately? this is why i said i'm glad. anything i say goes in one ear and out the other with you guys, but you won't watch the games themselves, or if you do, you don't understand what you're seeing. No one is playing anywhere near Fantasy's level right now and it's a damn shame that so many people have forgotten what makes a great player great. it sure as hell ain't proleague statistics. Inconsequental losses? If those are inconsequential losses,than Jaedongs's are as well,and Bisu's sloppy plays against Backho and Shuttle and Light. Everything is inconsequential. I am sorry to say,but for the first time you don't make any sense. I am glad that you don't write the PR as well. Is this a joke? Lol. He said he is not going to write the PR because of RL problems,so he will find somebody qualified. If you already knew that please tell me what was so funny about my post because my explaining in English is not the best,and if you point out what's funny,perhaps I can rephrase it. You said you don't write which implies that the person does not write them IE somebody else does. He most certainly writes PR's simply not this next one.
I meant to respond to his words that" I am glad none of you will write the next PR while I'm away", and Ia said I am glad too,because you do not write the PR.
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On May 12 2009 04:08 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 03:03 Nylan wrote:On May 11 2009 13:25 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I'm pretty sure this is the power rank, and not the creativity rank. "Power?" Why is seperate from ELO then? Hmm? Because statistics alone aren't what makes a player great. Because ELO totally ignores how they play, you can play godly without too much creativity. And the ELO ranking is way off in some cases, for example just look at Iris, he's 7th or so, and players who are on a roll in the PL aren't even in the top 10/20/30 like Hogil and many others But this has been discussed for one million times already, Power rank does not have that much to do with ELO, and nothing to do with Kespa rankings
Yes exactly
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The power rank as I've always understood it is who is the most powerful player at the moment. Not who is the most creative, who is the most fun to watch or even who just happened to win a league or qualify for a league. The person on top of the power rank should be the progamer everyone is the most afraid of playing.
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On May 12 2009 05:15 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 02:35 iCCup.d(O.o)a wrote:On May 11 2009 22:11 Darth Peter wrote:On May 11 2009 22:05 iCCup.d(O.o)a wrote:On May 11 2009 20:51 Darth Peter wrote:On May 11 2009 19:52 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 11 2009 16:56 fanatacist wrote:On May 11 2009 16:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I'm really glad none of you have any chance at taking over the PR in my absence Even after the last 2 bio games you think that Fantasy is a scarier, more well-rounded, and more unbeatable opponent than Bisu? you think that two inconsequential losses from a player who created and uses heavily modified mech builds that are safe and effective rather than upmagic and every other terran''s style of hoping to catch the zerg with their pants down... you think those two losses mean more than the other games he's played lately? this is why i said i'm glad. anything i say goes in one ear and out the other with you guys, but you won't watch the games themselves, or if you do, you don't understand what you're seeing. No one is playing anywhere near Fantasy's level right now and it's a damn shame that so many people have forgotten what makes a great player great. it sure as hell ain't proleague statistics. Inconsequental losses? If those are inconsequential losses,than Jaedongs's are as well,and Bisu's sloppy plays against Backho and Shuttle and Light. Everything is inconsequential. I am sorry to say,but for the first time you don't make any sense. I am glad that you don't write the PR as well. Is this a joke? Lol. He said he is not going to write the PR because of RL problems,so he will find somebody qualified. If you already knew that please tell me what was so funny about my post because my explaining in English is not the best,and if you point out what's funny,perhaps I can rephrase it. You said you don't write which implies that the person does not write them IE somebody else does. He most certainly writes PR's simply not this next one. I meant to respond to his words that" I am glad none of you will write the next PR while I'm away", and Ia said I am glad too,because you do not write the PR.
Than what you mean to say is I am glad you will not be writing the PR. What you said assumes past tense as well. Sorry I'm a dick sometimes
On May 12 2009 04:08 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 03:03 Nylan wrote:On May 11 2009 13:25 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I'm pretty sure this is the power rank, and not the creativity rank. "Power?" Why is seperate from ELO then? Hmm? Because statistics alone aren't what makes a player great. Because ELO totally ignores how they play, you can play godly without too much creativity. And the ELO ranking is way off in some cases, for example just look at Iris, he's 7th or so, and players who are on a roll in the PL aren't even in the top 10/20/30 like Hogil and many others But this has been discussed for one million times already, Power rank does not have that much to do with ELO, and nothing to do with Kespa rankings
Sarcasm detector is way off.
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On May 12 2009 03:03 Nylan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 13:25 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I'm pretty sure this is the power rank, and not the creativity rank. "Power?" Why is seperate from ELO then? Hmm? Because statistics alone aren't what makes a player great.
Clearly the measure of how a player plays is divided into only creativity and statistics. -.-
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On May 12 2009 05:39 fusionsdf wrote:
The power rank as I've always understood it is who is the most powerful player at the moment. Not who is the most creative, who is the most fun to watch or even who just happened to win a league or qualify for a league. The person on top of the power rank should be the progamer everyone is the most afraid of playing.
QFT
Also someone mentioned that Bisu's games against Light, Shuttle and Backho were sloppy. While I agree his game against Backho was sub-par, I felt his game against Light and Shuttle (except for losing those goons at his 3rd) were simply high-level games played against people who had practiced very hard to gun him down. Shuttle played extremely well and made almost no mistakes, and he would have won if not for Bisu's clutch nexus snipe. Against Light Bisu pulled off so many recalls I lost count. Maybe they weren't all effective, but the effectiveness of a recall can't solely be attributed to "sloppiness", as there are so many factors the Protoss user can't control for. I thought Light played extremely well. He's no pushover and can occasionally raise his game to unprecedented heights.
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Que: FakeSteve!!
latent v FS round 62! fight!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 11 2009 20:51 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 19:52 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 11 2009 16:56 fanatacist wrote:On May 11 2009 16:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I'm really glad none of you have any chance at taking over the PR in my absence Even after the last 2 bio games you think that Fantasy is a scarier, more well-rounded, and more unbeatable opponent than Bisu? you think that two inconsequential losses from a player who created and uses heavily modified mech builds that are safe and effective rather than upmagic and every other terran''s style of hoping to catch the zerg with their pants down... you think those two losses mean more than the other games he's played lately? this is why i said i'm glad. anything i say goes in one ear and out the other with you guys, but you won't watch the games themselves, or if you do, you don't understand what you're seeing. No one is playing anywhere near Fantasy's level right now and it's a damn shame that so many people have forgotten what makes a great player great. it sure as hell ain't proleague statistics. Inconsequental losses? If those are inconsequential losses,than Jaedongs's are as well,and Bisu's sloppy plays against Backho and Shuttle and Light. Everything is inconsequential. I am sorry to say,but for the first time you don't make any sense. I am glad that you don't write the PR as well.
Attention idiot: Bisu and Jaedong's recent losses are inconsequential. All three of them are playing very well, Fantasy is playing by far the best of the three.
You can't take what I say and make it like I'm saying something completely different.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 11 2009 22:37 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 21:44 Neptuneajax wrote:
Since the last PR was post on April 10th
Jaedong has gone 7-5, with 5 of these wins in his best matchup ZvZ. He lost a ZvZ, and lost to players the caliber of ganzi and movie.
Fantasy has gone 6-2 with win over Sea and Jaedong himself, however with lossed to rising Zerg stars, Calm and Hogil
Bisu has gone 8-1 with a loss to cheese from By.Great. He be beat players the likes of Light, Calm, Zero, and Leta, all of whom have been playing very well.
Make of that what you will..... Fantasy 8raxed Sea in his nat, granted Bisu cheesed Leta too, but has been winging and pulling things out and winning. Also to Steve about creativity: Isnt Leta's TvZ something more original and powerful that Fantasy ever does, and it is his own build that no one else can mimic as well. Make fun of Upmagic as much as you want, but he has helped modify Fantasy's build after incruit to create the standard TvZ build that was used last season. I am not talking about the vult harass into Valk/M&M, but the build where you go speed vults to harass and pressure into Mass Goli, few tanks. JD's new response to the mech build, the 2hat Den/Muta seems to be doing well against all of fantasy's mech variations, including the Valk/M&M build where Z counters by massing lurkers to counter. Shouldnt Jaedong get credit for providing a powerful counter for Zs to the build instead of using 3hat everytime?
what?! every unconventional build leta has ever done has come from Upmagic and Lomo are you kidding me
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...Are you really going to use that argument? First of all, not every unconventional build is from upmagic. Second, even if it was, why would it matter? This is the power rank, not the creativitiy rank, and is based on who is the most scary/awe inspiring/powerful, not who we happen to like or like to watch. Third, fantasy? You mean the guy who gets builds fed regularly to him by boxer and iloveoov? Somehow that warrants fantasy being first while the blanket statement that leta gets some of his builds from upmagic is a strike against him?
Look, I dont think there has been anyone in this thread who agrees with you that fantasy was obviously the most powerful player last month. He certainly competes for it, but you're acting like everyone who thinks it should be bisu or jaedong instead only looks at TLPD and never actually watches any games.
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On May 12 2009 11:40 fusionsdf wrote:
...Are you really going to use that argument? First of all, not every unconventional build is from upmagic. Second, even if it was, why would it matter? This is the power rank, not the creativitiy rank, and is based on who is the most scary/awe inspiring/powerful, not who we happen to like or like to watch. Third, fantasy? You mean the guy who gets builds fed regularly to him by boxer and iloveoov? Somehow that warrants fantasy being first while the blanket statement that leta gets some of his builds from upmagic is a strike against him?
Look, I dont think there has been anyone in this thread who agrees with you that fantasy was obviously the most powerful player last month. He certainly competes for it, but you're acting like everyone who thinks it should be bisu or jaedong instead only looks at TLPD and never actually watches any games.
Have you forgotten? Anyone that disagrees with FS in terms of gameplay is inexperienced and a retard in comparison to his overwhelming StarCraft knowledge, we are mere peons in comparison and our opinions are worth less than the dirt we stand on.
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Fantasy's play was not any more awe-inspiring over the last month than Bisu's or Jaedong's. I also don't understand why creativity in builds is a tool for measuring the strength of a player, when ultimately any strategy that gets results (read: Bisu) is equally effective.
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On May 12 2009 12:32 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 11:40 fusionsdf wrote:
...Are you really going to use that argument? First of all, not every unconventional build is from upmagic. Second, even if it was, why would it matter? This is the power rank, not the creativitiy rank, and is based on who is the most scary/awe inspiring/powerful, not who we happen to like or like to watch. Third, fantasy? You mean the guy who gets builds fed regularly to him by boxer and iloveoov? Somehow that warrants fantasy being first while the blanket statement that leta gets some of his builds from upmagic is a strike against him?
Look, I dont think there has been anyone in this thread who agrees with you that fantasy was obviously the most powerful player last month. He certainly competes for it, but you're acting like everyone who thinks it should be bisu or jaedong instead only looks at TLPD and never actually watches any games. Have you forgotten? Anyone that disagrees with FS in terms of gameplay is inexperienced and a retard in comparison to his overwhelming StarCraft knowledge, we are mere peons in comparison and our opinions are worth less than the dirt we stand on.
Exactly. Peons don't practice with the likes of SEA[SHIELD] AND SAINT[Z-ZONE].
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 12 2009 11:40 fusionsdf wrote:
...Are you really going to use that argument? First of all, not every unconventional build is from upmagic. Second, even if it was, why would it matter? This is the power rank, not the creativitiy rank, and is based on who is the most scary/awe inspiring/powerful, not who we happen to like or like to watch. Third, fantasy? You mean the guy who gets builds fed regularly to him by boxer and iloveoov? Somehow that warrants fantasy being first while the blanket statement that leta gets some of his builds from upmagic is a strike against him?
Look, I dont think there has been anyone in this thread who agrees with you that fantasy was obviously the most powerful player last month. He certainly competes for it, but you're acting like everyone who thinks it should be bisu or jaedong instead only looks at TLPD and never actually watches any games.
You asked if Leta's TvZ was more original and powerful than Fantasy's, that's all I answered. It definitely is not, nowhere near. How could you think so?
The entire thing with people saying Fantasy "gets fed builds from boxer and iloveoov" as justification for their low opinion of him is the biggest line of bullshit I've ever heard. There's a huge difference between seeing another pro do something and emulating it, and working with a coach to create something entirely new.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 12 2009 12:49 NathanSC wrote:
Fantasy's play was not any more awe-inspiring over the last month than Bisu's or Jaedong's. I also don't understand why creativity in builds is a tool for measuring the strength of a player, when ultimately any strategy that gets results (read: Bisu) is equally effective.
Bisu's play has not had the level of finesse and utter dominance that Fantasy's games have.
Watch some fucking games you heathens! Don't watch two Bisu wins and Fantasy's last two losses and think that's enough! Don't look at TLPD and assess the name value of their respective opponents! WATCH THE GAMES.
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Kay.
...
God Fantasy has terrible MnM control.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
cool go back farther than two games you dunce!!!!!!
ps: i know i'm being a jerk if i had time to go into detail on this i'd be writing the power rank hahah
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Yeah it's cool. Everyone has their reasons, but blanket saying "You're all clueless and have no idea who is the best!" when quite a few might be just as knowledgeable about the game as you demands some mean sarcasm!
I don't entirely disagree with Fantasy being at the top, but I do disagree with how you say it's clear cut he's playing the best. He's playing good enough to be in the running for the top, in which is creativity and unexpected builds could push him over the slightly more predictable Jaedong and Bisu.
edit: to clarify even more, I think people are kind of overreacting to your overreaction. You've long been known as...boisterous, to put it politely, and people should expect when you think someone is at the top, regardless of the gap, you're so sure of it that you will bite someone's jugular out if they so much as raise a finger against you.
That and general ignorance to your fervor lead to almost knee-jerk counter arguments, especially following a month where the #1 was so clear cut it wasn't even close to a challenge (Jaedong at the time of the last PR was playing better starcraft than anyone ever has in the history of the game, as far as I'm concerned) and no one really had much to argue with.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 12 2009 15:15 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Yeah it's cool. Everyone has their reasons, but blanket saying "You're all clueless and have no idea who is the best!" when quite a few might be just as knowledgeable about the game as you demands some mean sarcasm!
I don't entirely disagree with Fantasy being at the top, but I do disagree with how you say it's clear cut he's playing the best. He's playing good enough to be in the running for the top, in which is creativity and unexpected builds could push him over the slightly more predictable Jaedong and Bisu.
edit: to clarify even more, I think people are kind of overreacting to your overreaction. You've long been known as...boisterous, to put it politely, and people should expect when you think someone is at the top, regardless of the gap, you're so sure of it that you will bite someone's jugular out if they so much as raise a finger against you.
That and general ignorance to your fervor lead to almost knee-jerk counter arguments, especially following a month where the #1 was so clear cut it wasn't even close to a challenge (Jaedong at the time of the last PR was playing better starcraft than anyone ever has in the history of the game, as far as I'm concerned) and no one really had much to argue with.
uhhhh no one knows as much as me
maybe you passed over the words 'sea[shield] and saint[z-zone]' in more_minerals's post????
and yeah i always vehemently defend the #1 choice, to the grave, mine or yours. I'll raise hell if my stand-in doesn't see it the same way
in all seriousness though, the edge fantasy has is in execution. during his game against frozean he basically just 'decided' before the match to overwhelm frozean with macro, and that's exactly what happened. that is definitely not fantasy's normal style. during the game against zergbong, fantasy was on the ropes due to a clever 1hatch lurker build. he turned what would be a scraping comeback victory by any other top terran into a complete blowout, like the lurkers didn't bother him at all. he is incredible.
edit: zergbong, not oversky. i always type the one name when i mean the other with these two
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On May 12 2009 15:36 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 15:15 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Yeah it's cool. Everyone has their reasons, but blanket saying "You're all clueless and have no idea who is the best!" when quite a few might be just as knowledgeable about the game as you demands some mean sarcasm!
I don't entirely disagree with Fantasy being at the top, but I do disagree with how you say it's clear cut he's playing the best. He's playing good enough to be in the running for the top, in which is creativity and unexpected builds could push him over the slightly more predictable Jaedong and Bisu.
edit: to clarify even more, I think people are kind of overreacting to your overreaction. You've long been known as...boisterous, to put it politely, and people should expect when you think someone is at the top, regardless of the gap, you're so sure of it that you will bite someone's jugular out if they so much as raise a finger against you.
That and general ignorance to your fervor lead to almost knee-jerk counter arguments, especially following a month where the #1 was so clear cut it wasn't even close to a challenge (Jaedong at the time of the last PR was playing better starcraft than anyone ever has in the history of the game, as far as I'm concerned) and no one really had much to argue with. uhhhh no one knows as much as me maybe you passed over the words 'sea[shield] and saint[z-zone]' in more_minerals's post???? and yeah i always vehemently defend the #1 choice, to the grave, mine or yours. I'll raise hell if my stand-in doesn't see it the same way in all seriousness though, the edge fantasy has is in execution. during his game against frozean he basically just 'decided' before the match to overwhelm frozean with macro, and that's exactly what happened. that is definitely not fantasy's normal style. during the game against oversky, fantasy was on the ropes due to a clever 1hatch lurker build. he turned what would be a scraping comeback victory by any other top terran into a complete blowout, like the lurkers didn't bother him at all. he is incredible.
Yeah, it's pretty funny. You're like some iconic ragemachine here, but a total sweetheart on somethingawful.
And there we go, that's what I was looking for! "Edge" as opposed to "GOD FANTASY COULD FONDLE A SUPER MODEL, PUNCH A NAZI, AND PLAY WITH HIS FEET RIGHT NOW AND RIP JAEDONG AND BISU APART IN A 1v2!"
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 12 2009 15:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 15:36 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 12 2009 15:15 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Yeah it's cool. Everyone has their reasons, but blanket saying "You're all clueless and have no idea who is the best!" when quite a few might be just as knowledgeable about the game as you demands some mean sarcasm!
I don't entirely disagree with Fantasy being at the top, but I do disagree with how you say it's clear cut he's playing the best. He's playing good enough to be in the running for the top, in which is creativity and unexpected builds could push him over the slightly more predictable Jaedong and Bisu.
edit: to clarify even more, I think people are kind of overreacting to your overreaction. You've long been known as...boisterous, to put it politely, and people should expect when you think someone is at the top, regardless of the gap, you're so sure of it that you will bite someone's jugular out if they so much as raise a finger against you.
That and general ignorance to your fervor lead to almost knee-jerk counter arguments, especially following a month where the #1 was so clear cut it wasn't even close to a challenge (Jaedong at the time of the last PR was playing better starcraft than anyone ever has in the history of the game, as far as I'm concerned) and no one really had much to argue with. uhhhh no one knows as much as me maybe you passed over the words 'sea[shield] and saint[z-zone]' in more_minerals's post???? and yeah i always vehemently defend the #1 choice, to the grave, mine or yours. I'll raise hell if my stand-in doesn't see it the same way in all seriousness though, the edge fantasy has is in execution. during his game against frozean he basically just 'decided' before the match to overwhelm frozean with macro, and that's exactly what happened. that is definitely not fantasy's normal style. during the game against oversky, fantasy was on the ropes due to a clever 1hatch lurker build. he turned what would be a scraping comeback victory by any other top terran into a complete blowout, like the lurkers didn't bother him at all. he is incredible. Yeah, it's pretty funny. You're like some iconic ragemachine here, but a total sweetheart on somethingawful. And there we go, that's what I was looking for! "Edge" as opposed to "GOD FANTASY COULD FONDLE A SUPER MODEL, PUNCH A NAZI, AND PLAY WITH HIS FEET RIGHT NOW AND RIP JAEDONG AND BISU APART IN A 1v2!"
i try to be a good representative of tl and starcraft outside of teamliquid itself
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man this power rank is old now lol
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On May 12 2009 16:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 15:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On May 12 2009 15:36 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 12 2009 15:15 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Yeah it's cool. Everyone has their reasons, but blanket saying "You're all clueless and have no idea who is the best!" when quite a few might be just as knowledgeable about the game as you demands some mean sarcasm!
I don't entirely disagree with Fantasy being at the top, but I do disagree with how you say it's clear cut he's playing the best. He's playing good enough to be in the running for the top, in which is creativity and unexpected builds could push him over the slightly more predictable Jaedong and Bisu.
edit: to clarify even more, I think people are kind of overreacting to your overreaction. You've long been known as...boisterous, to put it politely, and people should expect when you think someone is at the top, regardless of the gap, you're so sure of it that you will bite someone's jugular out if they so much as raise a finger against you.
That and general ignorance to your fervor lead to almost knee-jerk counter arguments, especially following a month where the #1 was so clear cut it wasn't even close to a challenge (Jaedong at the time of the last PR was playing better starcraft than anyone ever has in the history of the game, as far as I'm concerned) and no one really had much to argue with. uhhhh no one knows as much as me maybe you passed over the words 'sea[shield] and saint[z-zone]' in more_minerals's post???? and yeah i always vehemently defend the #1 choice, to the grave, mine or yours. I'll raise hell if my stand-in doesn't see it the same way in all seriousness though, the edge fantasy has is in execution. during his game against frozean he basically just 'decided' before the match to overwhelm frozean with macro, and that's exactly what happened. that is definitely not fantasy's normal style. during the game against oversky, fantasy was on the ropes due to a clever 1hatch lurker build. he turned what would be a scraping comeback victory by any other top terran into a complete blowout, like the lurkers didn't bother him at all. he is incredible. Yeah, it's pretty funny. You're like some iconic ragemachine here, but a total sweetheart on somethingawful. And there we go, that's what I was looking for! "Edge" as opposed to "GOD FANTASY COULD FONDLE A SUPER MODEL, PUNCH A NAZI, AND PLAY WITH HIS FEET RIGHT NOW AND RIP JAEDONG AND BISU APART IN A 1v2!" i try to be a good representative of tl and starcraft outside of teamliquid itself
I'm on to your chicanery!
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Why is that Steve dodges me every time i adress him? (19th page)
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On May 11 2009 21:59 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 21:48 disciple wrote:On May 11 2009 21:41 raga4ka wrote:On May 11 2009 21:36 disciple wrote: people have forgotten what makes a great player great. hmm, really? I remember,like 2 years ago, Federer doing just enough to beat his opponents in the early stages of the tournaments. You see, he was doing nothing spectacular, yet he still seemed unbeatable by all these average guys. But when it was about a really important match in the further stages of the tournament Fed really started to push things. My point is what makes a great player great is the ability not to lose games, no matter how good or focused his play was. With that being said fantasy is just fireworks and candies atm, yes, he is entertaining but that doesnt make him the best player atm. For once i agree with disciple . lol :D I'm actually with you on most of the things you post with the exception of the stuff about Luxury. He sucks, man This month he sucks , but i think he deserved his second place last month .
no...he did not.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 12 2009 16:58 Geo.Rion wrote:
Why is that Steve dodges me every time i adress him? (19th page)
if i dont have time to write the power rank what makes you think i have time to write a detailed analysis of why specific games are amazing
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On May 12 2009 18:11 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 16:58 Geo.Rion wrote:
Why is that Steve dodges me every time i adress him? (19th page) if i dont have time to write the power rank what makes you think i have time to write a detailed analysis of why specific games are amazing
i only asked for naming 3 games, i dont even want to argue about it, i'd just liek to know what you think are fanta's best games...
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Valhalla18444 Posts
if i do that all you're gonna do is watch them and point out every miniscule detail you think fantasy could have done better
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To be fair, I'd also like to know which matches you saw the sparkle in, and not at all to be a pompous dick, I swear!
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On May 12 2009 19:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
if i do that all you're gonna do is watch them and point out every miniscule detail you think fantasy could have done better
I wont even say a word about any of them. Deal?
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2 loses vs 2 great wins. It's not that great imo
+ those loses were from the last 2 games
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Also something else bothers me. Why on earth some of the people count JDs loses in a series against him. It's like saying: jeee, JD lost 2 games against fantasy (in the osl finals), while player X is with a 4-0 record.
I know that wining 2-1 isn`t the same thing as winin` 2-0, but it's still a win, so it shouldn`t count as a minus to the winner.
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On May 12 2009 20:47 Jaeden wrote:
Also something else bothers me. Why on earth some of the people count JDs loses in a series against him. It's like saying: jeee, JD lost 2 games against fantasy (in the osl finals), while player X is with a 4-0 record.
I know that wining 2-1 isn`t the same thing as winin` 2-0, but it's still a win, so it shouldn`t count as a minus to the winner.
I don't think people are counting Jaedong dropping two games to Fantasy in a series against him, since 3-2 is 3-2 no matter how you look at it. But Fantasy winning 2 games in a series against Jaedong is definitely a plus to him.
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On May 13 2009 07:48 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 20:47 Jaeden wrote:
Also something else bothers me. Why on earth some of the people count JDs loses in a series against him. It's like saying: jeee, JD lost 2 games against fantasy (in the osl finals), while player X is with a 4-0 record.
I know that wining 2-1 isn`t the same thing as winin` 2-0, but it's still a win, so it shouldn`t count as a minus to the winner. I don't think people are counting Jaedong dropping two games to Fantasy in a series against him, since 3-2 is 3-2 no matter how you look at it. But Fantasy winning 2 games in a series against Jaedong is definitely a plus to him.
QFT.
Jaeden you're just being biased although given your name/sig/country that is not surprising.
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Way to call someone out for no reason.
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On May 13 2009 10:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Way to call someone out for no reason.
The reason was there because his statement made no sense, and it was because of his bias.
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It made sense, and everyone's biased, so what's your point? It was uncalled for.
Note how the other guy even agrees. And then you come along.
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On May 13 2009 10:15 Avidkeystamper wrote:
It made sense, and everyone's biased, so what's your point? It was uncalled for.
Note how the other guy even agrees. And then you come along.
He didn't agree with him in any sense. He discounted his belief that people are holding 2 losses against Jaedong, and he said that it is a major plus to Fantasy. It's the butt-hurt mentality "my player is not number 1 because people are counting 2 losses to Fantasy fix please JD #1!!!!!"
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Bisu's been 8-1 since his last OSL loss. That 1 loss is cheese. How does Fantasy deserve a #1 spot over Bisu when Fantasy has been 6-2 since OSL finals? Bisu's games have been 1 sided lately as well (i.e. Bisu vs Calm)
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Obviously, if you watched the games it should be obvious.
@ Fanta, you're right, but you don't have to call out every instance of bias, especially only against Jaedong supporters.
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On May 13 2009 10:03 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 07:48 Sentenal wrote:On May 12 2009 20:47 Jaeden wrote:
Also something else bothers me. Why on earth some of the people count JDs loses in a series against him. It's like saying: jeee, JD lost 2 games against fantasy (in the osl finals), while player X is with a 4-0 record.
I know that wining 2-1 isn`t the same thing as winin` 2-0, but it's still a win, so it shouldn`t count as a minus to the winner. I don't think people are counting Jaedong dropping two games to Fantasy in a series against him, since 3-2 is 3-2 no matter how you look at it. But Fantasy winning 2 games in a series against Jaedong is definitely a plus to him. QFT. Jaeden you're just being biased although given your name/sig/country that is not surprising.
Did you seriously just say his bias comes from his country? How xenophobic can you fucking be dude.
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Erm, that's just a joke around here that people from Romania are a little...off (dumb).
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Ah, yes, overgeneralized racist jokes. How not xenophobic.
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On May 13 2009 11:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 10:03 fanatacist wrote:On May 13 2009 07:48 Sentenal wrote:On May 12 2009 20:47 Jaeden wrote:
Also something else bothers me. Why on earth some of the people count JDs loses in a series against him. It's like saying: jeee, JD lost 2 games against fantasy (in the osl finals), while player X is with a 4-0 record.
I know that wining 2-1 isn`t the same thing as winin` 2-0, but it's still a win, so it shouldn`t count as a minus to the winner. I don't think people are counting Jaedong dropping two games to Fantasy in a series against him, since 3-2 is 3-2 no matter how you look at it. But Fantasy winning 2 games in a series against Jaedong is definitely a plus to him. QFT. Jaeden you're just being biased although given your name/sig/country that is not surprising. Did you seriously just say his bias comes from his country? How xenophobic can you fucking be dude.
Shouldn't your country say "Romania" too?
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No, I just happen to not be an enormous asshole.
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you sure you're not from romania?
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Fantacist, fu, u didnt seem so ...off() on my first impression
anyway, my example was a little off, I didnt want to make it seem like I complain for the final against fantasy, I've exagerated, but anyways, the thing is that JDs match against Movie counts against him, coz he only won 2-1. That's stupid imho.
also Movie is no Zergbong, thanks.
ohh and ALSO for the ones who understand only what they want(yeah you!), I wont mind Bisu beein` #1 (I dont agree with Fantasy #1), coz he played better than JD this month.
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Fantacist, u should know this, coz we had a little discussion a few months ago. I`m trying to not be biased, but, I am.
And another thing, how can u make the analogy with my name? Everyone calls me Jaeden, that's my nickname, it has nothing to do with Jaedong.
oh and, I dont mind the Romanian jokes, coz those are stupid, and veeeeeeery outdated anyways
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On May 13 2009 11:59 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Erm, that's just a joke around here that people from Romania are a little...off (dumb).
Actually you are way off. The term "romanian" is used here on TL when someone does not get the sarcasm in a post, and takes its first meaning, but it's a joke...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=81085
2. point
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On May 13 2009 11:46 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Obviously, if you watched the games it should be obvious.
@ Fanta, you're right, but you don't have to call out every instance of bias, especially only against Jaedong supporters.
In my opinion, it seemed to be aiming to argue the current topic underhandedly; it appeared to me that he was saying something along the lines of "everyone is picking on Jaedong for his losses to Fantasy, but Jaedong won the series" which really means "Jaedong is better than Fantasy just no one realizes it" which means "JAEDONG NUMBA 1". If my initial premise (that he was arguing the current topic) is incorrect, then it was just a post unrelated to the current discussion that was clearly put to promote a certain player, and when the bias is so strong in doing so, I called it out.
I have nothing against Jaedong or his fans, I think he is a fucking A+ gamer and is at least on par with Bisu if not greater in terms of skill. If his PL record was slightly better than Bisu's, I would be all for having him #1. But right now Bisu is on a killing spree, whereas neither Fantasy or Jaedong are. Power is a measure of how good the player is - good players don't drop games except the occasional cheese (Bisu). This means that losing 2 games due to poor MnM usage (Fantasy) does not apply to being #1. And although pointing out that the 2 losses against Fantasy are being overrated (Jaedong), it does not address the other issue - why his PL stats are not as impressive as Bisu's.
On May 13 2009 11:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 10:03 fanatacist wrote:On May 13 2009 07:48 Sentenal wrote:On May 12 2009 20:47 Jaeden wrote:
Also something else bothers me. Why on earth some of the people count JDs loses in a series against him. It's like saying: jeee, JD lost 2 games against fantasy (in the osl finals), while player X is with a 4-0 record.
I know that wining 2-1 isn`t the same thing as winin` 2-0, but it's still a win, so it shouldn`t count as a minus to the winner. I don't think people are counting Jaedong dropping two games to Fantasy in a series against him, since 3-2 is 3-2 no matter how you look at it. But Fantasy winning 2 games in a series against Jaedong is definitely a plus to him. QFT. Jaeden you're just being biased although given your name/sig/country that is not surprising. Did you seriously just say his bias comes from his country? How xenophobic can you fucking be dude.
On May 13 2009 12:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Ah, yes, overgeneralized racist jokes. How not xenophobic.
On May 13 2009 18:45 Jaeden wrote:Fantacist, fu, u didnt seem so ...off( ) on my first impression anyway, my example was a little off, I didnt want to make it seem like I complain for the final against fantasy, I've exagerated, but anyways, the thing is that JDs match against Movie counts against him, coz he only won 2-1. That's stupid imho. also Movie is no Zergbong, thanks. ohh and ALSO for the ones who understand only what they want(yeah you!), I wont mind Bisu beein` #1 (I dont agree with Fantasy #1), coz he played better than JD this month.
What I bolded is exactly what I was talking about.
I understand your sentiments but the fact is Jaedong should not be dropping even 1 game to players like Movie is he is S-class. Especially in a series, where players like Jaedong/Bisu/Fantasy are considered to be at their strongest. It also makes his record not as impressive as Bisu's. Not saying Movie is Zergbong; Movie is a pretty good player, but he's not near the level of Bisu either, which should be Jaedong's only competent P opponent at the moment (as evidenced by their series a few months ago).
I don't understand only what I want, I understand only what you said, which was "JAEDONG WON THE SERIES, DON'T YOU DARE FORGET!" You said nothing of the latter part of your post (Bisu #1).
On May 13 2009 18:49 Jaeden wrote:Fantacist, u should know this, coz we had a little discussion a few months ago. I`m trying to not be biased, but, I am. And another thing, how can u make the analogy with my name? Everyone calls me Jaeden, that's my nickname, it has nothing to do with Jaedong. oh and, I dont mind the Romanian jokes, coz those are stupid, and veeeeeeery outdated anyways
Look at the posts around yours and see if yours was in the right place at the right time, addressing the issue EVERYONE was talking about. When you bring it up seemingly out of the blue, and make it ambiguous (since you said you really meant that losing against Movie should not be held against him, that you were against Fantasy #1, and that Bisu played better than Jaedong this month), it makes it glare out as flaming bias.
Ah, well that's my bad, it seemed to be too much of a coincidence to be unrelated.
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Jaedong almost always loses his first game in a series. This did not prevent him to take and hold the nr.1 rank so far, so you sohuld get over it. Jd is known for doing this, check his bo3 and bo5 series.
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On May 13 2009 21:14 Geo.Rion wrote:
Jaedong almost always loses his first game in a series. This did not prevent him to take and hold the nr.1 rank so far, so you sohuld get over it. Jd is known for doing this, check his bo3 and bo5 series.
Yea, but there is a difference between doing that with Fantasy or Bisu and doing that with Movie. It's irrelevant if that's how Jaedong does it every time if he does it when he faces no-name scrubs, players worse than him that are still good, AND other S-class gamers.
Are you trying to argue that he loses the first game on purpose? That would be the only excuse for his loss. However, I doubt Jaedong is that stupid.
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On May 13 2009 21:18 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 21:14 Geo.Rion wrote:
Jaedong almost always loses his first game in a series. This did not prevent him to take and hold the nr.1 rank so far, so you sohuld get over it. Jd is known for doing this, check his bo3 and bo5 series. Yea, but there is a difference between doing that with Fantasy or Bisu and doing that with Movie. It's irrelevant if that's how Jaedong does it every time if he does it when he faces no-name scrubs, players worse than him that are still good, AND other S-class gamers. Are you trying to argue that he loses the first game on purpose? That would be the only excuse for his loss. However, I doubt Jaedong is that stupid.
he's not doing it on purpose. It's just a habit or sg , there were some intreviwes where they asked him why does this happen. Try to find them, i dont have the whole day .
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On May 13 2009 11:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 10:03 fanatacist wrote:On May 13 2009 07:48 Sentenal wrote:On May 12 2009 20:47 Jaeden wrote:
Also something else bothers me. Why on earth some of the people count JDs loses in a series against him. It's like saying: jeee, JD lost 2 games against fantasy (in the osl finals), while player X is with a 4-0 record.
I know that wining 2-1 isn`t the same thing as winin` 2-0, but it's still a win, so it shouldn`t count as a minus to the winner. I don't think people are counting Jaedong dropping two games to Fantasy in a series against him, since 3-2 is 3-2 no matter how you look at it. But Fantasy winning 2 games in a series against Jaedong is definitely a plus to him. QFT. Jaeden you're just being biased although given your name/sig/country that is not surprising. Did you seriously just say his bias comes from his country? How xenophobic can you fucking be dude.
Teamliquid meme.
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On May 13 2009 11:33 AzureEye wrote:
Bisu's been 8-1 since his last OSL loss. That 1 loss is cheese. How does Fantasy deserve a #1 spot over Bisu when Fantasy has been 6-2 since OSL finals? Bisu's games have been 1 sided lately as well (i.e. Bisu vs Calm)
I don't think that a proxy hatch contain halfway through a game counts as cheese, and Bisu didn't respond to it half as well as free did.
I'm not debating your main point (Bisu owns joo), but you can't just dismiss the loss. To be clear, great beats Bisu with a 5-pool? Cheese. great beats Bisu by building map control and sunken-containing? Not cheese.
Plus, regardless of the methods employed, Bisu still lost. Results matter.
Alternatively, we have to discount Bisu's win over Leta, which was truly cheesy. But that would be silly.
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The thing is, if Jd wins a tournament, that is important, not the fact that he 3-2/2-1 every opponent he faced and not beat them 3-0. If Movie would've advance in that series, then yeah, it would've been a CLEAR minus to JD, but since he didn`t, it's perfectly fine.
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On May 13 2009 21:18 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 21:14 Geo.Rion wrote:
Jaedong almost always loses his first game in a series. This did not prevent him to take and hold the nr.1 rank so far, so you sohuld get over it. Jd is known for doing this, check his bo3 and bo5 series. Yea, but there is a difference between doing that with Fantasy or Bisu and doing that with Movie. It's irrelevant if that's how Jaedong does it every time if he does it when he faces no-name scrubs, players worse than him that are still good, AND other S-class gamers. Are you trying to argue that he loses the first game on purpose? That would be the only excuse for his loss. However, I doubt Jaedong is that stupid.
He has to warm up. Plus movie isnt that bad a player
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There is a significant difference between winning a series 3-0, and winning a series 3-2.
For example:
Flash beat Stork 3-0 in Bacchus 08. The TL News post for that series was "Prison Rape". There was no question about the utter domination Flash had at that time. It wasn't a particularly good series, but no one could deny Flash after that. 3-0 implies dominance.
If we look at either of the past two OSL Finals, both have been 3-2. 3-2 series are much more entertaining to watch as a viewer, but it shows the series was relatively close, with even the losing player coming extremely close to winning. It implies that the two players are at least close in skill level.
Winning 3-0 or even 2-0 should show dominance. Winning 3-2 or 2-1 shows a relatively close series.
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yeah but why does that count as a minus to bisu..who doesnt even play in gsl, I mean, it's better to win even though 2-1, than to no play at all, right? (don`t get me wrong, bisu had a better month I`m not arguing with that)
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what exactly are you arguing again?
Jaedong had other losses in proleague that showed some little hitches in his flawless play from last month that make talking about whether he should stay on top a worthwhile debate.
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On May 14 2009 03:50 Jaeden wrote:
yeah but why does that count as a minus to bisu..who doesnt even play in gsl, I mean, it's better to win even though 2-1, than to no play at all, right? (don`t get me wrong, bisu had a better month I`m not arguing with that)
What? What sort of argument is that...? No one faults Bisu for not being in GOM s3, that was his team's decision, not his.
If someone didn't play in something, they didn't play in something. I guess I can fault Jaedong for not playing in SKT1 vs STX... No wait, that's retarded. Players should be judged based on the games they played, and the results produced by those games.
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On May 13 2009 21:30 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 21:18 fanatacist wrote:On May 13 2009 21:14 Geo.Rion wrote:
Jaedong almost always loses his first game in a series. This did not prevent him to take and hold the nr.1 rank so far, so you sohuld get over it. Jd is known for doing this, check his bo3 and bo5 series. Yea, but there is a difference between doing that with Fantasy or Bisu and doing that with Movie. It's irrelevant if that's how Jaedong does it every time if he does it when he faces no-name scrubs, players worse than him that are still good, AND other S-class gamers. Are you trying to argue that he loses the first game on purpose? That would be the only excuse for his loss. However, I doubt Jaedong is that stupid. he's not doing it on purpose. It's just a habit or sg , there were some intreviwes where they asked him why does this happen. Try to find them, i dont have the whole day .
It's your argument, YOU find your evidence. Until you prove to me otherwise, that argument is
1. stupid, as it implies he does it on purpose or does nothing to fix his habit
2. false, and therefore does not make the loss to Movie any more justified
~fusionsdf: Like I said, Movie is not a terrible player, but he is not someone who should be 1 game away from a win in a Bo3 against an in-form Jaedong.
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On May 14 2009 05:43 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 21:30 Geo.Rion wrote:On May 13 2009 21:18 fanatacist wrote:On May 13 2009 21:14 Geo.Rion wrote:
Jaedong almost always loses his first game in a series. This did not prevent him to take and hold the nr.1 rank so far, so you sohuld get over it. Jd is known for doing this, check his bo3 and bo5 series. Yea, but there is a difference between doing that with Fantasy or Bisu and doing that with Movie. It's irrelevant if that's how Jaedong does it every time if he does it when he faces no-name scrubs, players worse than him that are still good, AND other S-class gamers. Are you trying to argue that he loses the first game on purpose? That would be the only excuse for his loss. However, I doubt Jaedong is that stupid. he's not doing it on purpose. It's just a habit or sg , there were some intreviwes where they asked him why does this happen. Try to find them, i dont have the whole day . It's your argument, YOU find your evidence. Until you prove to me otherwise, that argument is 1. stupid, as it implies he does it on purpose or does nothing to fix his habit 2. false, and therefore does not make the loss to Movie any more justified ~ fusionsdf: Like I said, Movie is not a terrible player, but he is not someone who should be 1 game away from a win in a Bo3 against an in-form Jaedong.
It does not worth arguing with you, you're too narrow minded. IN a bo3/5/7/92313217312 losing one of the game has no importance at all. It does not have any further effect. Like in football a 4-0 win worths as much as a 2-1 win point-wise, but the number of goals could play a role eventually. In SLs they dont play any role.
He should not drop even one game that's true, but he does, but the thing is that he shows he's the better player after all, + add the fact that he's not doing so well in the first sets for some wierd (probably psycholgicly) reason, or because he isnt warmed up or hell knows. This losses are almost expected. He can afford that.
Nobody says JD is one million times better than anyone else, he can be baten and he has more games to practice for than players like movie or ganzi etc. do. He's always on the A lineup of OZ, and he always has to practice for the ace match. While the others can sit and figure out a way to take JD down, which does not happen after all, they just "score a goal" sometimes. I dont know if you got the point, if you did not, please do not answer i really dislike your stlye of posting, it's not about this little "fight" here, i've read many of your posts in many topics, and there were really few i could agree with or could aknowledge.
About the interview, i'm pretty sure it was done by lilsusie in GOM(ther could be more ofc), if you dont care that much to search for it, i wont waste the time searching it for you, you wont give a s**t about it anyways and would reply something which reflects that.
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Games won in a series are much different from points scored in a game, that is a terrible comparison. I already showed why there is a big difference between 3-0 and 3-2 earlier.
On the other hand, if you want to use the analogy of "points scored in a game" = "games won in a series", then here is one: Lets say the #1 team in the county beats the worst team in the country 21 - 20. The #1 team still won, but it sure as hell was an ugly win considering their competition. This is an extreme example, but it gets the idea across.
A perfect example of it would be this past season of NCAA Football. UGA was ranked #1 at the beginning of the season. They beat Georgia Southern 45-21. Georgia Southern is much smaller school, and isn't even a AAA school. Because UGA had slight "problems" with a school they had no business having problems against, UGA dropped in the rankings the following week. The same principle can be applied here.
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KeSPA #1 Power Rank
Absolutely destroyed Leta and GoRush without dropping a match.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 14 2009 01:04 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 11:33 AzureEye wrote:
Bisu's been 8-1 since his last OSL loss. That 1 loss is cheese. How does Fantasy deserve a #1 spot over Bisu when Fantasy has been 6-2 since OSL finals? Bisu's games have been 1 sided lately as well (i.e. Bisu vs Calm) I don't think that a proxy hatch contain halfway through a game counts as cheese, and Bisu didn't respond to it half as well as free did. I'm not debating your main point (Bisu owns joo), but you can't just dismiss the loss. To be clear, great beats Bisu with a 5-pool? Cheese. great beats Bisu by building map control and sunken-containing? Not cheese. Plus, regardless of the methods employed, Bisu still lost. Results matter. Alternatively, we have to discount Bisu's win over Leta, which was truly cheesy. But that would be silly.
The most important facet of that game isn't that Bisu lost, it's that he played so, so, so, SO bad
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On May 14 2009 15:01 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 01:04 Musoeun wrote:On May 13 2009 11:33 AzureEye wrote:
Bisu's been 8-1 since his last OSL loss. That 1 loss is cheese. How does Fantasy deserve a #1 spot over Bisu when Fantasy has been 6-2 since OSL finals? Bisu's games have been 1 sided lately as well (i.e. Bisu vs Calm) I don't think that a proxy hatch contain halfway through a game counts as cheese, and Bisu didn't respond to it half as well as free did. I'm not debating your main point (Bisu owns joo), but you can't just dismiss the loss. To be clear, great beats Bisu with a 5-pool? Cheese. great beats Bisu by building map control and sunken-containing? Not cheese. Plus, regardless of the methods employed, Bisu still lost. Results matter. Alternatively, we have to discount Bisu's win over Leta, which was truly cheesy. But that would be silly. The most important facet of that game isn't that Bisu lost, it's that he played so, so, so, SO bad
That is true, but can't we say the same thing about Fantasy's recent losses?
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On May 14 2009 06:08 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 05:43 fanatacist wrote:On May 13 2009 21:30 Geo.Rion wrote:On May 13 2009 21:18 fanatacist wrote:On May 13 2009 21:14 Geo.Rion wrote:
Jaedong almost always loses his first game in a series. This did not prevent him to take and hold the nr.1 rank so far, so you sohuld get over it. Jd is known for doing this, check his bo3 and bo5 series. Yea, but there is a difference between doing that with Fantasy or Bisu and doing that with Movie. It's irrelevant if that's how Jaedong does it every time if he does it when he faces no-name scrubs, players worse than him that are still good, AND other S-class gamers. Are you trying to argue that he loses the first game on purpose? That would be the only excuse for his loss. However, I doubt Jaedong is that stupid. he's not doing it on purpose. It's just a habit or sg , there were some intreviwes where they asked him why does this happen. Try to find them, i dont have the whole day . It's your argument, YOU find your evidence. Until you prove to me otherwise, that argument is 1. stupid, as it implies he does it on purpose or does nothing to fix his habit 2. false, and therefore does not make the loss to Movie any more justified ~ fusionsdf: Like I said, Movie is not a terrible player, but he is not someone who should be 1 game away from a win in a Bo3 against an in-form Jaedong. It does not worth arguing with you, you're too narrow minded. IN a bo3/5/7/92313217312 losing one of the game has no importance at all. It does not have any further effect. Like in football a 4-0 win worths as much as a 2-1 win point-wise, but the number of goals could play a role eventually. In SLs they dont play any role. He should not drop even one game that's true, but he does, but the thing is that he shows he's the better player after all, + add the fact that he's not doing so well in the first sets for some wierd (probably psycholgicly) reason, or because he isnt warmed up or hell knows. This losses are almost expected. He can afford that. Nobody says JD is one million times better than anyone else, he can be baten and he has more games to practice for than players like movie or ganzi etc. do. He's always on the A lineup of OZ, and he always has to practice for the ace match. While the others can sit and figure out a way to take JD down, which does not happen after all, they just "score a goal" sometimes. I dont know if you got the point, if you did not, please do not answer i really dislike your stlye of posting, it's not about this little "fight" here, i've read many of your posts in many topics, and there were really few i could agree with or could aknowledge. About the interview, i'm pretty sure it was done by lilsusie in GOM(ther could be more ofc), if you dont care that much to search for it, i wont waste the time searching it for you, you wont give a s**t about it anyways and would reply something which reflects that.
wat
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 14 2009 16:21 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 15:01 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 14 2009 01:04 Musoeun wrote:On May 13 2009 11:33 AzureEye wrote:
Bisu's been 8-1 since his last OSL loss. That 1 loss is cheese. How does Fantasy deserve a #1 spot over Bisu when Fantasy has been 6-2 since OSL finals? Bisu's games have been 1 sided lately as well (i.e. Bisu vs Calm) I don't think that a proxy hatch contain halfway through a game counts as cheese, and Bisu didn't respond to it half as well as free did. I'm not debating your main point (Bisu owns joo), but you can't just dismiss the loss. To be clear, great beats Bisu with a 5-pool? Cheese. great beats Bisu by building map control and sunken-containing? Not cheese. Plus, regardless of the methods employed, Bisu still lost. Results matter. Alternatively, we have to discount Bisu's win over Leta, which was truly cheesy. But that would be silly. The most important facet of that game isn't that Bisu lost, it's that he played so, so, so, SO bad That is true, but can't we say the same thing about Fantasy's recent losses?
yes we certainly can
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I think that best zvp has ofc July : ) I love to watch his low eco strats:D
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On May 14 2009 04:38 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 03:50 Jaeden wrote:
yeah but why does that count as a minus to bisu..who doesnt even play in gsl, I mean, it's better to win even though 2-1, than to no play at all, right? (don`t get me wrong, bisu had a better month I`m not arguing with that) What? What sort of argument is that...? No one faults Bisu for not being in GOM s3, that was his team's decision, not his. If someone didn't play in something, they didn't play in something. I guess I can fault Jaedong for not playing in SKT1 vs STX... No wait, that's retarded. Players should be judged based on the games they played, and the results produced by those games.
what? I didnt fault bisu omg, I`m just saying that that shouldn`t count as a minuuuuuuus, omg seems like my english is broken
ALSO KEEP IN MIND THAT I AGREE BISU HAD A BETTER MONTH THAN JD!, so stop saying that I keep arguing pls
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On May 14 2009 04:19 Mogwai wrote:
what exactly are you arguing again?
Jaedong had other losses in proleague that showed some little hitches in his flawless play from last month that make talking about whether he should stay on top a worthwhile debate.
Jesus, I`ve never said that JD should remain on top :|
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I think JD should stay on top. 8-2 in his last 10 games isn't really anything to be embarrassed about, especially since he hasn't really lost any important games except for some proleague losses. Then again, everyone loses sometimes and I would like to wait to see how he'll perform in the starleagues before putting Bisu ahead of him. Jaedong is the OSL champion, after all, whereas Bisu failed to do anything in the starleagues last season.
Also, I think it's about time for Stork to go.
(P)Horang2 OGN 2109 - 2040 - 2005 - 2051 -
(P)Stork KHAN 2108 2282 2192 2251 2120 2166 2043 2184
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If the PR would've gone up in time, I would've been firmly behind JD going down to third. But Jaedong's not only producing better results lately, he's playing like his OSL winning beastly self. I wouldn't be upset if he isn't #1 once the new PR goes up, but if he keeps up like he is, I might cock an eyebrow at dropping him.
I mean, Oz is 9:0 in their latest Proleague games so it's not like he's even doing bad in proleague (sure it's mostly zvz thanks to battle royale but 9:0 is 9:0 for good reason). He's advanced in MSL (a little shaky at first but he's solidly in) and in GOM, Oz is still #1, etc etc. He's on top of everything.
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eh, I still think Bisu has been putting up slightly better results lately, and it could be argued for fantasy as well. It really depends on how much emphasis you put on recent performances as opposed to older(i.e. OSL) ones.
As long as Jaedong/Fantasy/Bisu are the top three(in whatever order) i'm not going to complain too much.
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Bisu #1 for PR please
EDIT: + Show Spoiler +Saw Jaedong tear up Ganzi and Doctor K just now. Now I don't know if Jaedong should remain #1 or give it to Bisu.
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Is the PR about last month's performance or the last 30 days?
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It's about the current best player.
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On May 15 2009 02:15 Avidkeystamper wrote:
It's about the current best player.
Theoretically, this is what PR should be about, (and I would love to see Flash / Jaedong / Bisu on top of PR for a year) but since PR is monthly, and people are damn impatient and always wants change, PR becomes more of a monthly performance. Someone said PR would be "boring" if they saw those 3 titans on top 3 for a year, but I disagree
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Fantasy is, in general, playing much better than Flash and would be considered the current best Terran, as far as I'm aware. Bisu and JD are obvious shoe ins, given the poooor performance of the dragons club, and every Zerg but Zero being kind of meh.
But yeah we know results don't really matter when Fakesteve is in charge, considering he kept Savior at #1 back when Bisu thoroughly stomped him. It's just who the writer thinks is totally totally better than anyone below them. We already know the #1 for this month is Fantasy (Steve said that was his choice and he seems adamant on picking someone who thinks specifically like him), so it's more of an argument between JD and Bisu on who gets 2nd, which, given Steve's recent "God Bisu be failin' " post, might be a little more clearcut then some people would think.
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On May 15 2009 02:45 TwoToneTerran wrote:and every Zerg but Zero being kind of meh.
Zero's playing like a monster, but still, Calm and Effort?
Since last PR:
Zero is 12-2
Calm is 10-3
Effort is 9-2
none of these three are playing too shabby and all deserve spots on the PR as far as I'm concerned.
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Effort maybe (he is kind of underrated), but didn't calm not even qualify for the MSL? He might get a lower spot but getting knocked out in the prelims is kind of damaging to your status as "top ten" player on the scene.
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On May 15 2009 03:17 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Effort maybe (he is kind of underrated), but didn't calm not even qualify for the MSL? He might get a lower spot but getting knocked out in the prelims is kind of damaging to your status as "top ten" player on the scene.
Calm isn't out of the MSL. He plays the winner of Sair/go.go tonight and if he wins, he's in.
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Ah alright, my bad. I just remember Bisu taking him out earlier.
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yea, his only losses in the past month and a half are vs. Bisu, Zero and Great, I have faith that he'll be able to take out go.go or Sair tomorrow night.
That's for OSL though, he did get booted from MSL by Hogil I think in the offline qualifiers...
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No no, that's for MSL, tomorrow's MST Group 12.
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On May 15 2009 02:39 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2009 02:15 Avidkeystamper wrote:
It's about the current best player. Theoretically, this is what PR should be about, (and I would love to see Flash / Jaedong / Bisu on top of PR for a year) but since PR is monthly, and people are damn impatient and always wants change, PR becomes more of a monthly performance. Someone said PR would be "boring" if they saw those 3 titans on top 3 for a year, but I disagree
This is going to be a little... exaggerated, but I need to do it to make my point.
What if Jaedong somehow got DQ'd out of the OSL back in the Ro16? What if his team also didn't make the WL playoffs because Hiya wasn't there to pick up some slack?
In the real world, Jaedong went into beast mode and won a lot of shit. In this pretend world, Jaedong wouldn't have played a single game during the time span that this current PR covers. How do you rank someone on playing ability when you have no idea how well they played in a month? Would he still be ranked #1? Would he still even be in the top 3? In a perfect world we always know how good a player is, but in reality we can only base this on games which are broadcast.
Due to this, PR must be somewhat based on monthly performance. The only way you could fairly justify Jaedong being highly ranked after that would be if you had access to practice games, in which I would wonder why you're not sharing them with the replay section.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
Jaedong should remain #1, OSL win is too fresh and he kind of defeated the curse slump, started raping people hard again.
Bisu looks unbeatable once again, he's can hardly be beaten in PL when he can prepare for the opponent on one specific map, his stats are great.
He should be the only protoss on the list.
Lux sucks way too hard right now. By.hero never plays, same for Nada.
Calm, zero, fantasy, flash, leta, effort are all should be there, they are interchangeable. Maybe also Iris, but he never plays.
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Nominal Hyvaa inclusion for actually beating Jaedong zvz.
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On May 15 2009 03:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:
No no, that's for MSL, tomorrow's MST Group 12.
oh sorry, he's out of the OSL then by Hogill :p and still potentially in the MSL...
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On May 15 2009 01:53 AzureEye wrote:EDIT: + Show Spoiler +Saw Jaedong tear up Ganzi and Doctor K just now. Now I don't know if Jaedong should remain #1 or give it to Bisu.
Doctor.K microed like he'd lost a hand and GanZi just failed, to be fair.
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On May 15 2009 05:35 Nylan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2009 01:53 AzureEye wrote:EDIT: + Show Spoiler +Saw Jaedong tear up Ganzi and Doctor K just now. Now I don't know if Jaedong should remain #1 or give it to Bisu. Doctor.K microed like he'd lost a hand and GanZi just failed, to be fair.
Yeah every game Jaedong wins, his opponent messes up severely right? I mean, the only reason Fantasy lost the finals to Jaedong was he caught the swine flu for the last 3 games
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While I agree that Jaedong was playing like his old self, Ganzi and Doctor. K both made some pretty bad moves those games. They weren't as important as JD's crazy flanks and other such nonsense but they weren't really playing a class or anything.
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Sadly, Flash isn't playing up to his potential, so he does deserve that position on the power rank. I think once he gets his confidence back, his mechanics will fall into place and he'll start dominating again.
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Well, really those games shouldn't detract from much since Jaedong was expected to steamroll them, and he did. Though tense, back and forth games are more entertaining, they are, in most cases, not as impressive as an easy win.
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On May 15 2009 06:08 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2009 05:35 Nylan wrote:On May 15 2009 01:53 AzureEye wrote:EDIT: + Show Spoiler +Saw Jaedong tear up Ganzi and Doctor K just now. Now I don't know if Jaedong should remain #1 or give it to Bisu. Doctor.K microed like he'd lost a hand and GanZi just failed, to be fair. Yeah every game Jaedong wins, his opponent messes up severely right? I mean, the only reason Fantasy lost the finals to Jaedong was he caught the swine flu for the last 3 games
I think he was just saying that there wasn't anything out of the ordinary that happened with those games. Jaedong played like Jaedong, and Doctor.K and Ganzi played like Doctor.K and Ganzi.
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Well, why should that matter is Jaedong raped them like he should've?. The "to be fair" comment suggests that those games should not be counted as normal wins, since they are lower quality opponents, but that's not a good way to look at the skill level.
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On May 15 2009 07:35 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Well, why should that matter is Jaedong raped them like he should've?. The "to be fair" comment suggests that those games should not be counted as normal wins, since they are lower quality opponents, but that's not a good way to look at the skill level.
Winning against Doctor.K or Ganzi isn't something that should make someone go "OMG THIS IS THE BEST PLAYER EVER, HE BEAT BOTH DOCTOR.K AND GANZI!" I think that was the point he was making.
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But the person he was posting for didn't even so anything close to that. He was still ambivalent about Jaedong's position.
Obviously then, the guy that responded to azure's intent was closer to my previous post.
Whatever, this is irrelevant to the PR.
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On May 14 2009 07:53 Nylan wrote:
KeSPA #1 Power Rank
Absolutely destroyed Leta and GoRush without dropping a match.
+ Show Spoiler + this smiley is really cute
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
FakeSteve I am rereading all the old Power Ranks and I loved your description for #1 for this month's.
Lulz.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://lollernet.com/pics/gif/roflcopter.gif)
