EPTPower Rank 03/03/2007 - Page 12
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
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Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
 He sould be 2nd i think... with SaviOr still first imo. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36369 Posts
On March 20 2007 10:53 rgfdxm wrote: I was under the impression that if every zerg under the sun loses on RLT, but Savior wins, then that means Savior is really fucking good. You seem to think it means that Savior likes the map so it doesn't count. Regardless, you are right that Savior got outplayed, but don't try to stretch that point too far or it'll break. Outplaying him doesn't change the fact that the maps were unpleasant. Yes, it is absolutely the case that Nada did just rape the best ZvTer ever, maps notwithstanding. You can see that in my above post, I said as much, almost word for word. What my point was about the maps seems not to have been clear enough, so let me elucidate: In a situation with unbalanced maps, the person who is favored has to put up more results and play more convincingly than normal in order to earn his place. If two players are somewhat close in skill but one is better, say 55%-45%, but the maps are perhaps 40%-60%, the better player might lose most of the games. Groundbreaking conclusion, I know. But as obvious as that is, the implications are inescapable. If we know the maps suck, and the favored player is winning, we can't give him the credit he would deserve unless he wins a fucking lot. Sucks if he was the better player all along, but if he's better and has nice maps, he really should be winning enough to prove it. Simply put, Savior's win in the OSL finals was more impressive than Nada's win in the Shinhan Masters, just from a maps perspective. If you don't like that, then as I said before, your problem is with OGN, not all the "Nada-haters" you see around you. They're the ones who are making it hard for Nada to get the recognition he deserves. Oh yeah, and Nada himself too, for losing the OSL finals. THIS MAN SPEAKS THE TRUTH just because michael jordan wins shooting with his left hand, that doesn't mean all shooters are better shooting left handed. logic police. TRUTH if you take savior's stats away from longinus and RLT the T>Z stats are pretty ridiculous. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
"It's an imba ZvT map. Why? Take out Savior and Yellow[ArnC] and T wins so much more!" yeah, no shit, because if you take out the two best zergs right now (and the only ones playing a lot on it) of course the stats are going to shift towards the T's. that's like saying "take away nada's and casy's and iris' and midas' wins on RLT and it's such a Z >>>> T map" Either you count all the stats, or you don't count them at all. Selectively looking at it lets you twist it any way you want. As for the NaDa > Savior, let's look at the maps: Peaks: Savior's choice Arkanoid: NaDa's choice. Not imba towards T so much as it is imba towards NaDa. 815: Bunker rush. Don't even start that shit about how the map is imbalanced and therefore NaDa won, unless you're prepared to defend how 815 somehow makes bunker rushes stronger RLT: Savior won If we know the maps suck, and the favored player is winning, we can't give him the credit he would deserve unless he wins a fucking lot. What we're saying is that the maps didn't suck this time. They weren't imbalanced in favor of Terran. And Savior still couldn't win. I agree with leaving Savior at #1, but to discount NaDa's performance because "OSL mattered more" or "maps imbaaaaa" is insulting | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
its plain stupid and fan boyish.. | ||
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rgfdxm
United States239 Posts
You know what argument I hate most in here? Good thing nobody made that argument. Try reading what I write."It's an imba ZvT map. Why? Take out Savior and Yellow[ArnC] and T wins so much more!" Even conceding your point, the OSL finals still did matter more. Nada > Savior on T=Z, fine. But Savior > Nada on T>Z. Is it a huge difference? No. But I don't think it's equal. As for discounting Nada's performance, I answered all of this in my last post, so should I copy and paste, or summarize? Summary time: Whaaaaa! Maps imbaaaaaa! =D | ||
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On March 19 2007 14:32 Mynock wrote: Dude... weak. I mean, seriously... Let me rephrase what you just said in a sentence: "sAviOr wasn't trying and the maps were gay" This one is god damn funny in the perspective of your previous post On March 06 2007 08:39 Mynock wrote: [ If anybody tries making a point out of "Iris destroying Casy" we have to stop right there. Are you honestly implying that Casy was fighting equally strongly for the #3 spot as for his entry into the Finals? Surely not. Let's talk about hypocrisy. | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
On March 22 2007 04:13 sundance wrote: This one is god damn funny in the perspective of your previous post Let's talk about hypocrisy. Yeah let's. Casy losing a chance to get to finals and fighting for scraps, and sAviOr fighting for $25k in an über-prestigious tournament. (This tournament was for the WINNERS of 4 OSL and the winner of a special pre-masters tourney). So yeah, let's talk about hypocrisy... wait, what? Oh spikes! You're that same idiot who thought he had an argument against me by having a go at my signature. How the fuck did you get me to talk to you again?  -Mynock | ||
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I have yet to see Savior get outplayed in a long game ZvP Doesn't it speak further to his lack of skill that he can't stretch the game out that long in his losses, that he's not just losing close ZvP's, but got his ass absolutely handed to him by Bisu? On March 21 2007 10:47 rgfdxm wrote: Good thing nobody made that argument. if you take savior's stats away from longinus and RLT the T>Z stats are pretty ridiculous. Mmmm? On March 21 2007 10:47 rgfdxm wrote: As for discounting Nada's performance, I answered all of this in my last post, so should I copy and paste, or summarize? Summary time: Whaaaaa! Maps imbaaaaaa! =D I did read it. You presumed the imbalance of the maps, and went from there to explain that the finals should be viewed accordingly differently, since Savior had an uphill battle, so to speak, so since NaDa didn't totally rape Savior, Savior is still ahead. I explained to you that imbalance made no effect whatsoever in the finals. The main thrust of your argument came from "Casy Iris Nada picked 3 maps, Savior picked 1, therefore 3 maps must be T >>>> Z". This presumes that the maps are T >>>>> Z to begin with; I doubt that. (Wouldn't that make Peaks Z>>>T?) You have to offer more evidence than just that - stats, or etc. But yes, the stats do show something - Neo Arkanoid statistically is pretty T favored. (Whether it favors T's in general or just NaDa's specific playstyle we don't know.) And yet, we have to remember that each player got to pick a map in this final match. Presumably they would pick the best possible map for themselves (and there were several Z > T maps over the last several OSL's). So for those purposes we can safely take Peaks and Arkanoid out of the discussion. This leaves RLT (which Savior won) and 815. Is 815 imba for T? I don't know. Maybe. But it doesn't matter, because balanced games can be played on imbalanced maps. And here Savior can't use map imba as an excuse. He just didn't stop a bunker rush. That's his own fault, not the map's. I vote for savior at the top, though, simply because NaDa does not deserve number 1. Nor does Bisu. Savior's on the very last of his earned credit, though - one more loss and he's out of the top slot. | ||
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~chut~
France1317 Posts
And iirc, osl decided that theirs maps for shinhan 3 should be good for tvz (i still don't understand why, btw). it's probably not the subject here, but i thought almost everyone would agree that most of the maps in shinhan 3 were hard for zvt. But i completely agree about the fact that maps imbalance wasn't so much of a factor in the masters final. | ||
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One Page Memory
Bulgaria2145 Posts
On March 22 2007 06:08 sundance wrote: lol @ über-prestigious tournament Whats so funny here to lol? | ||
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
What so über-prestigious about some special event. In my books it has same value as a SuperFight. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
ect.. | ||
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One Page Memory
Bulgaria2145 Posts
On March 22 2007 13:19 sundance wrote: What so über-prestigious about some special event. In my books it has same value as a SuperFight. Next time Shinhan Bank surely will name it "some special event", not the ugly "Masters". And it's way more than SuperFight. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36369 Posts
superfight 3 was OSL winner vs MSL winner shinhan masters was 3 OSL winners and a qualifier i don't see how one is "way more" prestigious than the other | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
Masters was 2 back to back bo5s in different MU. .shrug. I don't think it's "that much more" prestigious. However, Power Rank isn't based on prestige. It's just on wins, and how awesome/not awesome the wins are. NaDa's 3-1 of the best TvT and 3-1 of the best ZvT in the world on the same day is more impressive than sAviOr's 3-1 of the best TvZer, I suppose. The NaDa 3-1 was also much more rape-filled. All of the NaDa wins were very one-sided. | ||
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Mynock
4492 Posts
On March 22 2007 22:21 Hot_Bid wrote: explain why its more than superfight? superfight 3 was OSL winner vs MSL winner shinhan masters was 3 OSL winners and a qualifier i don't see how one is "way more" prestigious than the other Oh, not all the superfights. But you know, 1 bo5 for NaDa vs sAviOr in 1 SuperFight, vs 3bo5s, plus a tourney to select 1 of the players, plus the prize is bigger, plus the golden ring you get for your win... Yeah, it's a lot more. But really, you just have to look at how much more talked about this tourney is than any of the previous SuperFights. Now the next SuperFight also looks like a huge thing, but prestige is determined not just by measures of size. It just so happens that OGN is viewed by more people, hence their tournaments are hyped up more and have more interest from the community. Also, whoever started comparing the Masters to the SuperFIght? I was talking about fighting in the finals of the Masters vs fighting for 3rd place in Shinhan 03, that's all. I never mentioned the SuperFights. Don't drift away from the point. If anything, Hot_Bid, you should ask sundance why he thinks these special tourneys are not prestigious "in his book". -Mynock | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
in a freestyle rap battle. | ||
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On March 23 2007 03:16 Mynock wrote: Oh, not all the superfights. But you know, 1 bo5 for NaDa vs sAviOr in 1 SuperFight, vs 3bo5s, plus a tourney to select 1 of the players, plus the prize is bigger, plus the golden ring you get for your win... Yeah, it's a lot more. But really, you just have to look at how much more talked about this tourney is than any of the previous SuperFights. Now the next SuperFight also looks like a huge thing, but prestige is determined not just by measures of size. It just so happens that OGN is viewed by more people, hence their tournaments are hyped up more and have more interest from the community. Also, whoever started comparing the Masters to the SuperFIght? I was talking about fighting in the finals of the Masters vs fighting for 3rd place in Shinhan 03, that's all. I never mentioned the SuperFights. Don't drift away from the point. If anything, Hot_Bid, you should ask sundance why he thinks these special tourneys are not prestigious "in his book". -Mynock Show me where I said they are not prestigious. What I said is masters == superfight pretty much And indirectly that OSL >> these two, what is common sense. These special events have their prestige (but calling any of them uber-prestigious is just retarded) but imo 3rd place in osl is more prestigious then any of these two. | ||
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