EPTIs there a balance problem with Brood Lord + Infestor?
| Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet |
|
Sated
England4983 Posts
| ||
|
Drake
Germany6146 Posts
 | ||
|
CaptainPlatypus
United States852 Posts
| ||
|
xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
| ||
|
Archile
United States403 Posts
in response to CoR: there are a few tools in the protoss arsenal that just aren't being used to full potential for example: KiWiKaKi's use of the mothership for recall vs Stephano in IPL3 MVP.finale's use of voidrays to deal with broodlords and infestors use of double warp prism WITH DTS + ZEALOTS. I cannot make it clear enough how important it is to mix these I am a high masters zerg and still lose to protoss in the lategame. Some know how to deal with it, some don't. Those with mindsets like yours that you can just sit back and wait until it's balanced are wasting their time. | ||
|
Savant.GL
Germany502 Posts
THAT BEING SAID I feel that too often players will look at a game and just say oh yeh BL infestor is OP when in fact the zerg outplayed the opponent, dealt with harass well and took a great victory. My opinion is just making infestors 3 supply that way you cant get 40 infestors and still have a good BL/corruptor count | ||
|
Yeah Cain
United Kingdom8 Posts
| ||
|
doner0
United States233 Posts
| ||
|
lamiller
United States92 Posts
| ||
|
DMZ
Canada51 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:19 Archile wrote: I voted for Yes, but it's ok to wait for HotS in response to CoR: there are a few tools in the protoss arsenal that just aren't being used to full potential for example: KiWiKaKi's use of the mothership for recall vs Stephano in IPL3 MVP.finale's use of voidrays to deal with broodlords and infestors use of double warp prism WITH DTS + ZEALOTS. I cannot make it clear enough how important it is to mix these I am a high masters zerg and still lose to protoss in the lategame. Some know how to deal with it, some don't. Those with mindsets like yours that you can just sit back and wait until it's balanced are wasting their time. I voted the same, as I feel lots of people seem to forget that there are ways of dealing with infestor BL. and terran- viking splits, seeker missile, ghost emp, harass. Infestor BL can definitely be beaten if the right counters are executed well. | ||
|
pookums
151 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:42 DMZ wrote: I voted the same, as I feel lots of people seem to forget that there are ways of dealing with infestor BL. and terran- viking splits, seeker missile, ghost emp, harass. Infestor BL can definitely be beaten if the right counters are executed well. I think one of the main problems is that yes, Infestor BL may be countered. But the level of skill required to pull off Infestor BL seems to be far lower than what is required to counter it from protoss and especially from terran. There might be something within the current confines of the game from the other races that is roughly the same amount of skill and power as late game zerg but it remains hidden as of yet. | ||
|
ShrykLdr
Canada44 Posts
Plus, I just kinda want life to win another GSL, been chearing for him since zenex | ||
|
LowEloPlayer
United States205 Posts
More about picking maybe: I am 80% sure that it's OP against Terran, because there's so little you can do. If you siege your tanks to zone infestors, you get screwed over by broodlings who now explode on impact and deal splash damage. Even well split vikings get owned because of fungals (which aren't exactly scarce when you have so many infestors and it only costs 75 energy), and if your army is dead because of fungals then infested terrans will help do the job. Any excess vikings will easily get cleaned up by corruptors. Not to mention Queens which are anti air and make another broodlord for 50 energy. The only thing I see which might work is Ghosts, but I feel that the EMP range is too small for it to really be effective, leaving you to use snipes which, while not bad, is not favorable and I honestly feel that a Zerg who's ontop of his stuff will keep 1-2 overseers around his army and just kill the ghosts with brood lords before it can really get anything done, and even if they can always just fungal to reveal. Actually forgot about Ravens. I guess those could also work, but they'd be better with just a slight buff IMO (just like how Ghosts probably need some kind of minor buff for Terrans to be able to combat BL-Infestor). | ||
|
FHC Nex
Bulgaria44 Posts
 every time i see the corruptor ball I shudder (even when I have thors to deal ~some~ splash damage in a desperate attempt to turn the tide of the battle). | ||
|
markrevival
United States222 Posts
| ||
|
ClairvoyanceSC2
United States758 Posts
| ||
|
MrMotionPicture
United States4327 Posts
| ||
|
synapse
China13814 Posts
On November 09 2012 06:12 MrMotionPicture wrote: I just wish that Fungal acted like Plague did in BW. I think ensnare would be better. | ||
|
Danule
Canada20 Posts
| ||
|
TranceNinjax
United States7 Posts
There'is a reason why it's in the game. If there was a massive design flaw, it would have been fixed already.. Maybe just take off the energy thing. that's the only nerf it needs. While we're at it, why dont we buff ultras too? | ||
|
FlowerBunny
Sweden187 Posts
| ||
|
Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
| ||
|
Sakkreth
Lithuania1096 Posts
On November 09 2012 06:46 TranceNinjax wrote: If they nerfed infestors too much. Zerg will lose. There'is a reason why it's in the game. If there was a massive design flaw, it would have been fixed already.. Maybe just take off the energy thing. that's the only nerf it needs. While we're at it, why dont we buff ultras too? There is more than one massive design flaw and it's not fixed. "Support" unit infestor is never a bad choice and is good against everything and can be massed. Collosi makes pvp dumb when u get into collosi phase, imagine pvp without collosi. Sentries, u have to make them to stay alive. Supposed to be defensive unit, used in strongest 2 base all-ins. Etc. Etc. | ||
|
Madars
Latvia166 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:19 Archile wrote: MVP.finale's use of voidrays to deal with broodlords and infestors Which game it was? Was it in games vs Lee, Jae-Dong? I have seen players try to use voidrays vs BL+Infestor combination, but so far Voidrays instantly melt to fungals+infested terrans. Perhaps one needs 3 times as many voidrays as zerg has infestors? I like the idea to make infestor take 3 supply | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
A nerf to infestors would probably also require a redesign and re balance of zerg across the board. All the other nerfs that terran got, to ghosts, BFH, tanks etc, well it was never as far reaching and bad because terran has such a solid lineup of viable units, and if you nerf one it doesn't the entirety of the race. However, I feel that, for the sake of SC2, for the better of the game, I believe that Blizzard needs to go for the hard way out, and just nerf infestors and rebuild the zerg race. Also, how the infestors are nerfed is very important. Ghosts, HT and Ravens have one thing in common, they have diminishing returns, no one makes too many of them, because after a certain number they become less useful. Infested Terrans don't have any diminishing returns, as long as the spell remains the way it is now, it will never be a bad idea to get too many infestors. The other problem is that, fungal doesn't really have diminishing returns either. It is damage over time, but it keeps units in place so you can fungal them again. | ||
|
Sapp
Poland173 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:53 pookums wrote: I think one of the main problems is that yes, Infestor BL may be countered. But the level of skill required to pull off Infestor BL seems to be far lower than what is required to counter it from protoss and especially from terran. There might be something within the current confines of the game from the other races that is roughly the same amount of skill and power as late game zerg but it remains hidden as of yet. ya, but look at the midgame. How many timeings terran or protoss can preform? countless. Zerg? not so much. how hard it is to play terran or protoss midgame? compared to zerg, not THAT hard at all. It's easy to say "nerf the shit out of something" but ask yourself how the game would look like without bl/inf. | ||
|
Sapp
Poland173 Posts
On November 09 2012 07:23 Destructicon wrote: The critical problem with Infestors is that, Zerg's are entirely reliant on them now, it feels like the entirety of the race is build from the ground up with infestors in mind. and that is because ANYTHING else, doesn't work | ||
|
Conny Duck
Austria90 Posts
| ||
|
QuietFrank
United States6 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:16 CaptainPlatypus wrote: I wouldn't say that there's a balance problem, I'd say that there's a design problem. A fix is necessary, but it isn't going to be as "simple" as tweaking the balance of the game. I think most people miss this distinction, and the wording of the poll doesn't go a long way toward helping this. Zerg late game is badly designed, but zerg isn't particularly unbalanced. So I voted no. | ||
|
mhael
United States102 Posts
I play SC2 when I can fit it in my busy schedule; but I never miss GSL. I want good games in GSL and I am tired of the zergs just ROLLING over everyone. Toss needs a air splash unit like a corsair from BW. Zerg needs the cost of BL to go up and the spell energy cost on infestor spells to go up. Chain fungal and infested terran with a 200/200 army = about a 260/200 army + broodlings from the BL. Too many units to block someone from getting under BL and shooting the real units - not the free ones. FIX THIS!!!! | ||
|
TerrabeaSt
Germany1 Post
that is ok so i think that | ||
|
snively
United States1159 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:16 CaptainPlatypus wrote: I wouldn't say that there's a balance problem, I'd say that there's a design problem. A fix is necessary, but it isn't going to be as "simple" as tweaking the balance of the game. yeah, thats a really good way to put it. i voted for waiting for hots | ||
|
Interstellar
Mexico67 Posts
| ||
|
Repomies
Finland73 Posts
| ||
|
Saigon2246
Hungary23 Posts
There'is a reason why it's in the game. If there was a massive design flaw, it would have been fixed already.. People, it's not just Inf-BL, the real problem is the GAME-DESIGN, you should have realized that by now. If someone hasn't noticed yet, the entire game is a MASSIVE DESIGN FLAW, not just Infestor-Brood Lord. I. Clump up/death ball effect which leads to -AoE insanely powerful and 200/200 battles taking less than a minute which leads to -the slightest mistakes to be punished very hard, very few epic comebacks which leads to -boring gameplay for viewers II. Spells that deny movement and micro (force field, fungal and vortex) which leads to -spells are gamedeciding thus the game needs to balanced around spells -even maps are forced to be designed around ffield to allow protoss taking a third III.Hard counter design which leads to -whole game balanced around key units/spells that prevent an other unit being op (marine-colossus/infestor) which leads to -very strong units, which need very strong counter-units, that will render the countered units almost useless which leads to -game very unforgiving thus annoying to play against certain compositions because the skill required to pull of a strategy and to defend against that certain strategy is vastly different (BL-Infestor, PvT templar-colossus deathball lategame, then after battle instant remax on chargelots) which leads to -no real midgame which leads to -games turning into snoozefests as people rather just sit on their bases until they reach 200/200 armies because doing anything else is just suboptimal. Now I ask you, do you really think that these issues are fixed. | ||
Myles
United States5162 Posts
| ||
|
Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
The broodlord itself isnt the problem IMO. Just the infestor. | ||
|
forsakeNXE
Germany539 Posts
| ||
|
Nothing-
United States5 Posts
On November 09 2012 07:24 Sapp wrote: ya, but look at the midgame. How many timeings terran or protoss can preform? countless. Zerg? not so much. how hard it is to play terran or protoss midgame? compared to zerg, not THAT hard at all. It's easy to say "nerf the shit out of something" but ask yourself how the game would look like without bl/inf. Really? Are you stuck in pre queen patch land? What countless mid game timings are you talking about? Lately the only midgame timing you see in TvZ is BF hellion. Otherwise, it's harass, go full-on macro and try to do something before BLs. In fact, it seems that zerg has the upper hand when it comes to midgame timings nowadays (just look at how Life and Leenock have been winning so many of their games). | ||
|
DavoS
United States4605 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:42 DMZ wrote: I voted the same, as I feel lots of people seem to forget that there are ways of dealing with infestor BL. and terran- viking splits, seeker missile, ghost emp, harass. Infestor BL can definitely be beaten if the right counters are executed well. TvZ is still good since Vikings can deal with Brood/corruptor unless they turtle way too hard on too few bases. PvZ is the problem here, though I do wish Terrans would use Ravens more. They have the spare gas normally anyway, why not get a raven and save the scan energy? Anyway, I've always held that Phoenix need to suck less. An air superiority unit shouldn't need an upgrade to win a 1 on 1 with a mutalisk. Or, Crank's been doing a lot of Zealot/warp prism/carrier play that works really well. Why not do more of that? | ||
|
lamiller
United States92 Posts
| ||
|
-Lullaby-
Canada7 Posts
| ||
|
imJealous
United States1382 Posts
| ||
|
neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
| ||
|
tMomiji
United States1115 Posts
On November 09 2012 11:36 imJealous wrote: There's no balance problem there's just a fun level problem. Protoss has to cheese to win. Zerg has to BL infestor to win. Hopefully HotS can fix this by giving viable options to both races (and hopefully taking fungal and forcefield out of the game in the process), but it will take continuous work even after the release of the game just like WoL and even BW. Um, NO. Neither forcefield nor fungal should be taken out of the game unless fungal was replaced with the infamous plague, or should I say PLAYGU. However both could use a little nerfing. Yes, a protoss player says FF should get a nerf...shock horror. | ||
| ||
