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On August 21 2011 03:41 agarangu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 02:42 Mortality wrote:On August 21 2011 01:59 agarangu wrote:On August 21 2011 00:42 Vasoline73 wrote:
I feel like Bisu should drop in the next PR. His team not choosing him for ace speaks volumes to me about his power level... ie, not near Flash's or even Zero's. Zero stepped up in his ace match... and his team believed in him.
Bisu dominates all season... and at the end, with the season on the line, steps down for BeSt? Coaching staff should be blamed, but so should Bisu. I agree- I was really surprised when I saw Best prepare for the last match... I was totally expecting Bisu to play that game. That doesn't mean as much as you think. I think it was a bad call by SKT1. I think they were putting too much stock in the fact that Best had a winning record against Flash and that Best had beaten Flash on that particular map before. But Flash is still Flash, and if for some reason KT hadn't sent Flash then Best would have lost, 80+% guarantee. That said, Bisu has gone through yet ANOTHER month against easy opponents. This is seriously growing old. I also think it was a bad call to send Best as ace, but not for the same reason. I mean, Flash is the only consistent player in KT, even though Stats has awaken in the Playoffs showing great games, he sometimes also plays terrible. I think Flash was the only reliable option for the ace match. But sending (and probably training) Best to snipe Flash instead of sending and preparing Bisu, who has a similar record vs terran overall and a better record this season, and who could defeat Flash in a big stage this year, just seems crazy. I mean, he prepared a BO for the WL finals and it worked. And this map is also Protoss favored, so I think SKT's best shot would have been doing the same, since they had not reliable player to snipe Flash. + Show Spoiler +Btw, I've seen every game KT has played this year, I'm not trolling or anything
I'm not buying this. Several reasons:
1) Since the start of this Proleague season, Bisu's been 1-3 against Flash. He got 0-2ed in the MSL and lost his regular WL game.
2) But you say, "He prepared and won a game against Flash in the WL Final". This is a good point; however, there are several off-setting considerations. First: Aztec is hugely Protoss-favored. Second: Bisu was playing in a no-pressure situation. SKT was up 3-1 having only spent 1 player before Bisu. With the lineup after him being La Mancha (P>T) and Empire of the Sun (TvT map), SKT obviously would send BeSt and fantasy, probably also with prepared builds, if Bisu lost.
3) Now let's consider BeSt's record. He's 3-1 against Flash this year before the Final. The lone loss was on Fortress. He beat Flash to start the year; his last regular season game against Flash he beat him on Circuit Breaker, the ace map.
Briefly, if you have to win "a game" against Flash, BeSt is the better choice. Despite the "clutch" issue, despite the loss to Flash in the standard set (on a P<T map, or at least P=T), I certainly don't see a compelling reason to send Bisu just because this is the grand final.
The one reason Bisu might have been a better choice is the possibility that KT sends Stats. But (as demonstrated) the chances weren't that high - and it's the mirror either way. (Interestingly, neither Bisu not BeSt have ever won a game against Stats, and fantasy is 2-3, 1-2 this year.)
Let's also think about what would have happened if Bisu had been sent. Most likely, he would have been using either a unique build or an outright cheese, since we can all agree if Bisu's just going to play straight up it's better to send BeSt, who beats Flash regularly. + Show Spoiler [EDIT I WAS WRONG] +Now, Flash obviously prepped a build for the final: I think it was a flexible anti-SKT-Protoss build. Why? He went with a forward rax and delayed gas - very delayed, the commentators kept pointing this out. In the end, it was a sort of 1 rax FE, similar to a TvZ build in some ways, and then he turtled hard on three bases while only harassing lightly (and to almost no effect). The main fact was that he worked out a way to stall his build progress for scouting time, while still leaving himself almost absolute flexibility. A macro build (from BeSt) would be met by the early expand, while a pressure build or cheese (Bisu) likely would have provoked a m&m timing attack (I can't think of another reason to delay both CC and gas). Now, if Bisu came in and played standard, his overall superior execution to BeSt would have put Flash behind a little - this is why the turtle was almost certainly a planned part of the build. Bisu simply hasn't proved he can take Flash straight-up, and I think Flash was confident enough to risk that small edge at the start to avoid another BO loss.
So does BeSt losing mean Bisu was the better choice after all? That's really hard to say, for obvious reasons like "it didn't happen". Ultimately there's no "right answer", but I really don't see evidence that sending Bisu would have improved SKT's chances.
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Just a small complaint with your post VGhost because I'm on my phone but Flash's build was a very now standard TvP rax expand. Really doubt he was planning on turning it into any MnM push or do anything crazy with it.
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On August 21 2011 09:35 VGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 03:41 agarangu wrote:On August 21 2011 02:42 Mortality wrote:On August 21 2011 01:59 agarangu wrote:On August 21 2011 00:42 Vasoline73 wrote:
I feel like Bisu should drop in the next PR. His team not choosing him for ace speaks volumes to me about his power level... ie, not near Flash's or even Zero's. Zero stepped up in his ace match... and his team believed in him.
Bisu dominates all season... and at the end, with the season on the line, steps down for BeSt? Coaching staff should be blamed, but so should Bisu. I agree- I was really surprised when I saw Best prepare for the last match... I was totally expecting Bisu to play that game. That doesn't mean as much as you think. I think it was a bad call by SKT1. I think they were putting too much stock in the fact that Best had a winning record against Flash and that Best had beaten Flash on that particular map before. But Flash is still Flash, and if for some reason KT hadn't sent Flash then Best would have lost, 80+% guarantee. That said, Bisu has gone through yet ANOTHER month against easy opponents. This is seriously growing old. I also think it was a bad call to send Best as ace, but not for the same reason. I mean, Flash is the only consistent player in KT, even though Stats has awaken in the Playoffs showing great games, he sometimes also plays terrible. I think Flash was the only reliable option for the ace match. But sending (and probably training) Best to snipe Flash instead of sending and preparing Bisu, who has a similar record vs terran overall and a better record this season, and who could defeat Flash in a big stage this year, just seems crazy. I mean, he prepared a BO for the WL finals and it worked. And this map is also Protoss favored, so I think SKT's best shot would have been doing the same, since they had not reliable player to snipe Flash. + Show Spoiler +Btw, I've seen every game KT has played this year, I'm not trolling or anything I'm not buying this. Several reasons: 1) Since the start of this Proleague season, Bisu's been 1-3 against Flash. He got 0-2ed in the MSL and lost his regular WL game. 2) But you say, "He prepared and won a game against Flash in the WL Final". This is a good point; however, there are several off-setting considerations. First: Aztec is hugely Protoss-favored. Second: Bisu was playing in a no-pressure situation. SKT was up 3-1 having only spent 1 player before Bisu. With the lineup after him being La Mancha (P>T) and Empire of the Sun (TvT map), SKT obviously would send BeSt and fantasy, probably also with prepared builds, if Bisu lost. 3) Now let's consider BeSt's record. He's 3-1 against Flash this year before the Final. The lone loss was on Fortress. He beat Flash to start the year; his last regular season game against Flash he beat him on Circuit Breaker, the ace map. Briefly, if you have to win "a game" against Flash, BeSt is the better choice. Despite the "clutch" issue, despite the loss to Flash in the standard set (on a P<T map, or at least P=T), I certainly don't see a compelling reason to send Bisu just because this is the grand final. The one reason Bisu might have been a better choice is the possibility that KT sends Stats. But (as demonstrated) the chances weren't that high - and it's the mirror either way. (Interestingly, neither Bisu not BeSt have ever won a game against Stats, and fantasy is 2-3, 1-2 this year.) Let's also think about what would have happened if Bisu had been sent. Most likely, he would have been using either a unique build or an outright cheese, since we can all agree if Bisu's just going to play straight up it's better to send BeSt, who beats Flash regularly. + Show Spoiler [EDIT I WAS WRONG] +Now, Flash obviously prepped a build for the final: I think it was a flexible anti-SKT-Protoss build. Why? He went with a forward rax and delayed gas - very delayed, the commentators kept pointing this out. In the end, it was a sort of 1 rax FE, similar to a TvZ build in some ways, and then he turtled hard on three bases while only harassing lightly (and to almost no effect). The main fact was that he worked out a way to stall his build progress for scouting time, while still leaving himself almost absolute flexibility. A macro build (from BeSt) would be met by the early expand, while a pressure build or cheese (Bisu) likely would have provoked a m&m timing attack (I can't think of another reason to delay both CC and gas). Now, if Bisu came in and played standard, his overall superior execution to BeSt would have put Flash behind a little - this is why the turtle was almost certainly a planned part of the build. Bisu simply hasn't proved he can take Flash straight-up, and I think Flash was confident enough to risk that small edge at the start to avoid another BO loss. Of course in the end, Flash beat BeSt handily too. Honestly, while BeSt screwed up somewhere, it's hard to say what he did wrong. The noticeable effect was that his normal "stream of units" simply wasn't there. Critical to that failure was the fact that Flash hit right before BeSt's (or any Protoss) normal "max" timing, so that the initial round was replacing BeSt's entire army, not reinforcing an army still 50% of its starting size. Even so, more zealots and a little more aggression and BeSt might have been able to whittle down the tanks that attacked his natural. Mostly, it's an indicator of what we all know: BeSt doesn't adapt very well in game. So does BeSt losing mean Bisu was the better choice after all? That's really hard to say, for obvious reasons like "it didn't happen". Ultimately there's no "right answer", but I really don't see evidence that sending Bisu would have improved SKT's chances.
Well, part of my point was that Bisu had defeated Flash on a Big stage, which is a big deal. I mean this was not a regular PL game, but a final. And it was the most important game of the final, the ace match. Flash has nerves of steel, and Bisu can handle decisive games (except in OSL lol), but Best, I don't know.
Anyway, I guess I just wanted to see an epic Flash vs Bisu game.
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On August 21 2011 04:09 Yodo wrote:Actually it means. It means that SKT coach has no trust in Bisu. And as a player I would be frustrated. I believe, Bisu was pissed off by this decision (and any player with ambition should be).
The coach has no trust in Bisu? All I can say in response is a flat "what?"
Do you have a source indicating that Bisu was pissed by this decision, or is this just a belief based on how you would feel in what you believe to be his circumstance (bear in mind that you don't know everything going on in SKT house)?
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All I think it means is that Bisu didn't have the faith in himself to beat Flash. Or the hunger. Which is fine unless you want to be number 1 or close on the PR.
I think if Bisu wanted to play the ace match he would have, he just didn't want to.
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On August 21 2011 13:32 Vasoline73 wrote:
I think if Bisu wanted to play the ace match he would have, he just didn't want to.
That doesn't make sense. Bisu wouldn't be a top progamer if he really had that attitude.
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Russian Federation327 Posts
2 VGhost
1) Since the start of this Proleague season, Bisu's been 1-3 against Flash.
No. It should be 3-2, as we talk about ACE match, and Best lost his set (which also give as some thoughts about his ability to snipe Flash).
Flash lost to Best on Circuit Breaker during his post MSL slump. Can't be taken as a valid data.
Also Much has a 4-3 lead over Flash, would you put Much as your Ace player?
And Best was on losing streak, and lost to Classic. So, what we have in the end?
The player who is not in his top form, and his edge over Flash is quite doubtful, and he failed to snipe the same players few minutes ago. Moreover, Bisu's 1-3 could be easily transformed into 3-1. Games were close, and only few mistakes separate Bisu from winning. Best can play only standard games, and why you should expect standard game in the Ace match of finals? This speculations about Best is good to snipe Flash have no solid ground.
2) Honestly, while BeSt screwed up somewhere, it's hard to say what he did wrong.
What? His play was horrible in both sets. Check the VOD:
The first engagement. Best had a group of goons to clear mines over field. He split his forces and leave half of the group right in front of exit from the Flash base. Flash decided to move out and scattered off positioned goons. Horrible army management from Best. From this point initiative went into the Flash hands. Best fallback to regroup his army and then failed horribly again - sent his lots right into vultures without army support. Continue losing his forces for nothing he did some mediocrity storms and got his arbs EMPed. The only good stuff he did was blocking of 9 o'clock expo. In short - he lost all his army engagements and got scattered over field and failed to regroup.
. Even so, more zealots and a little more aggression and BeSt might have been able to whittle down the tanks that attacked his natural.
No. The game was already lost here. Flash just switched to a-move/don't care mode.
Tl;dr. Best is good choice for standard PL game, but he needs the game where he can dictate his own pace. He can't stand in-game pressure (remember the first game on Fortress), he has no good army control and lack versatility (i.e. easier to snipe/prepare). I don't see how he can be a good choice for final match (without specially prepared canny build at least).
Bisu has better micro, better decisions, better army control, better multitask and only lack in terms of head-to-head statistic. And it is not like his macro bad as well.
It was decision based on Flash's jinx vs Best, I don't see any other reasons. And you know that Flash is the player who is notorious to overcame such kind of virtual obstacles.
2 Mortality
Yep, my statement has no solid ground but I believe it could be the case. Remember interview where Bisu was angry at coach because he forced him to prepare for PL games (was it WL finals?) while he want spent more time for Star League preparation. It shows that Bisu:
1. Can has different opinion from the coach
2. Can be angry by this
3. Has a ambitions and want to prove himself on bigger stage and matches.
All this match perfectly my guess. Anyway I don't see any reason to "what?" my statement as it is the most natural flow of events possible.
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On August 21 2011 19:14 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 13:32 Vasoline73 wrote:
I think if Bisu wanted to play the ace match he would have, he just didn't want to. That doesn't make sense. Bisu wouldn't be a top progamer if he really had that attitude.
I can't believe the coaching staff wouldn't use Bisu as their ace if he would insist to play it.
Maybe the whole team sat together, or the coaches spoke with their 3 potential ace players a lot etc.
and everyone came to the conclusion best had the best chance to take down Flash if it came down to the ace.
But if Bisu insisted that he is the right man to do it as the most successful of the 3 (3 MSL Champ, 63 ProLeague win record, recent WL Semi-Final ace against Jaedong, WL Final taking down Flash) while being on a hot streak, i can't believe the SKT coaching staff would have turned him down.
There has to be some good reasons best was sent out, and while we can't draw a conclusion from the outside, i think a good assumption would be that Bisu wasn't confident enough while Best was.
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On August 22 2011 00:27 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:14 okum wrote:On August 21 2011 13:32 Vasoline73 wrote:
I think if Bisu wanted to play the ace match he would have, he just didn't want to. That doesn't make sense. Bisu wouldn't be a top progamer if he really had that attitude. I can't believe the coaching staff wouldn't use Bisu as their ace if he would insist to play it. Maybe the whole team sat together, or the coaches spoke with their 3 potential ace players a lot etc. and everyone came to the conclusion best had the best chance to take down Flash if it came down to the ace. But if Bisu insisted that he is the right man to do it as the most successful of the 3 (3 MSL Champ, 63 ProLeague win record, recent WL Semi-Final ace against Jaedong, WL Final taking down Flash) while being on a hot streak, i can't believe the SKT coaching staff would have turned him down. There has to be some good reasons best was sent out, and while we can't draw a conclusion from the outside, i think a good assumption would be that Bisu wasn't confident enough while Best was. I don't think they would turn him down either, had Bisu insisted on being sent out. It's probably a confidence issue. 3 MSL wins don't really matter that much if you're going against a Golden Mouse receipient who also happened to have won 3 of the last 5 MSLs and knocked you out of the most recent MSL by beating you TWICE.
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Both Hoejja and Stats deserve low spots on the next rank for being incredibly clutch throughout the entire end of the playoffs and playing great games while doing it.
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Yeah Stats had what, 3rd or 4th best regular season record? He deserves a spot after getting a win in the finals.
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On August 21 2011 22:20 Yodo wrote:
2 Mortality
Yep, my statement has no solid ground but I believe it could be the case. Remember interview where Bisu was angry at coach because he forced him to prepare for PL games (was it WL finals?) while he want spent more time for Star League preparation. It shows that Bisu:
1. Can has different opinion from the coach
2. Can be angry by this
3. Has a ambitions and want to prove himself on bigger stage and matches.
All this match perfectly my guess. Anyway I don't see any reason to "what?" my statement as it is the most natural flow of events possible.
Obviously Bisu can have a different opinion than his coach. I would expect this. However, this does not mean that Bisu was thinking "the coach doesn't trust me."
My flat "what" is directed towards the sentiment that Bisu is not trusted. Best was clearly chosen as a sniper since he is a one match wonder and had a winning record over Flash going into the SPL grand final. Bisu and Fantasy are much stronger players overall and both able to push Flash to the very limit.
I might remind everyone that due to Flash's wrist injury it was not 100% certain that he would play as the ace, and Bisu and Fantasy both would obviously be stronger against any other player KT might use. Basically, the SKT coach gambled and lost.
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On August 22 2011 01:13 HopLight wrote:
Both Hoejja and Stats deserve low spots on the next rank for being incredibly clutch throughout the entire end of the playoffs and playing great games while doing it.
Yeah, they both played great games during the playoffs, and won in the finals. How many ovies did Stats kill?
Also, WTF happened to Action lol, that was a really weird game.
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"i think a good assumption would be that Bisu wasn't confident enough while Best was."
Did you see Best before that game? He looked like he was about to throw up.
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I might also remind people... you don't just pick an ace right on the spot. The official decision is of course made right before the ace match happens, but you ALWAYS train your ace for the match in advance. Best was the guy that the SKT coaches picked weeks ago.
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On August 21 2011 22:20 Yodo wrote:2 VGhost 1) No. It should be 3-2, as we talk about ACE match, and Best lost his set (which also give as some thoughts about his ability to snipe Flash).
Wait, what? Here's the matchup record. Bisu 1-3 Flash, 1-4 if we counted All-Stars (which of course we wouldn't and iirc was an offrace vs offrace game anyway), since the start of this Proleague season. Where is that wild 3-2 record coming from? Even a hypothetical ace match win would only put him at 2-3. Yes, 1-1 in SPL, but the ace match means preparation which means including the MSL results is reasonable.
On August 21 2011 22:20 Yodo wrote:
Flash lost to Best on Circuit Breaker during his post MSL slump. Can't be taken as a valid data.
Also Much has a 4-3 lead over Flash, would you put Much as your Ace player?
And Best was on losing streak, and lost to Classic. So, what we have in the end?
The player who is not in his top form, and his edge over Flash is quite doubtful, and he failed to snipe the same players few minutes ago. Moreover, Bisu's 1-3 could be easily transformed into 3-1. Games were close, and only few mistakes separate Bisu from winning.
You're clutching at straws here. How?
- BeSt was the first loss in Flash's "post-MSL slump", which lasted exactly 4 games, none of which mattered, against three of the best in proleague, plus BeSt who's consistently good against Flash. Slump? You have GOT to be kidding me.
- Assuming ACE had made the playoffs in the first place, he's as reasonable as anyone else on the team. He's always been an unorthodox player.
- Classic has proved very solid against BeSt's style, currently being 3-0. In contrast, BeSt has proven he can beat Flash. BeSt's "losing streak" before the Grand final consisted of losses to great (good ZvP, we all know BeSt's PvZ is terrible), and Classic, which I just covered. Before that he was 7-3 in his last ten PvTs, including 2-0 over Flash.
- "Games were close" isn't good enough: except for the Aztec game, Bisu lost. And unlike Aztec, Circuit Breaker can be properly walled.
On August 21 2011 22:20 Yodo wrote:
Best can play only standard games, and why you should expect standard game in the Ace match of finals? This speculations about Best is good to snipe Flash have no solid ground.
...Except for BeSt's really freakin' good record against Flash, even in recent play.
I'm not going to continue the gameplay discussion here: while BeSt didn't deal with the push properly he was caught in a really bad position, that given BeSt's style even early successes couldn't have remedied.
On August 21 2011 22:20 Yodo wrote:
Tl;dr. Best is good choice for standard PL game, but he needs the game where he can dictate his own pace. He can't stand in-game pressure (remember the first game on Fortress), he has no good army control and lack versatility (i.e. easier to snipe/prepare). I don't see how he can be a good choice for final match (without specially prepared canny build at least).
Against any other team, I'd buy this. Against Jaedong, Hydra, Leta, Stork, Mind, etc. I would send Bisu no questions. But against Flash, BeSt has proven that he can reliably beat Flash (or stand a good chance), and Bisu hasn't. The map difference makes any "prepared build" argument that much weaker, though it does have to be evaluated. If we posit that premise though, we have to account for the fact that Flash may have prepared an anti-Bisu build himself; at this point we'll never know, but MSL results indicate that when both players have prepared for each other, Flash comes out on top.
In other words, this was nothing other than an ace snipe, based on reasonable premises, that just didn't work for once. There is no evidence that Bisu would have done better; there's no evidence that Bisu had been told to prepare for the game (whether or not that would have been a good idea); there's only one game recently that indicates even a prepared Bisu has any chance of beating Flash. Both the map difference and the fact that in the WL final Flash was clearly not played when KT "wanted" him playing have to be taken into account. In the PL final, Flash was playing as a completely prepared ace, not put in a "we ended up down 0-3 now what" situation.
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i dont know but i always hear about bisu this and bisu that, but sincerely best was the right choice imo. in the recent games flash has stomped bisu hard, and not only that in the map, flash has a good record, bisu would had lost either way. the problem here is that best nerves made him make too silly mistakes, but i would choose him all time anytime in any current situation against flash. flash was on fire as simple as that, leave it that way.
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Russian Federation327 Posts
Wait, what? Here's the matchup record.
Ahh, sry, I misquoted. It should be:
Now let's consider BeSt's record. He's 3-1 against Flash this year before the Final.
i.e. It is about Flash vs Best statistic.
There is no evidence that Bisu would have done better
True, but there are no evidence that Bisu would have done worse as well.
The only argument you have to support Best is his descent statistic vs Flash.
But:
1. They played 4 games only. How you can relay on such a small data?
2. Ace match is very different from normal games, and this is true for all final's games. It is more close to BoX, as we have to deal with a lot of preparation. And in the last NATE MSL Flash 3-0'ed Best. And he would 3-0'ed him in this finals as well. Best is no good outside common games. I would not argue with you if he had some crafty build and failed, but his play was standard.
3. Check Best results, he is constantly out from individual leagues (and from early stages). He is no clutch player.
And yes, Bisu is a better player than Best. The problem lays in false believe of SKT fans that Best can be a threatening opponent for a Flash, and Bisu's PvT is weak. Bisu is in top form, his PvT is fine, how you can miss this chance and send some other toss just because he has few legacy wins?
If you want relay on statistic - use it properly. Bisu was better choice for this final match, and I believe Flash would be much more nervous facing Bisu.
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EPT
