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Malinor
Germany4758 Posts
On January 17 2011 10:38 TwoToneTerran wrote: He didn't say that Flash would indisputably beat Stork, but saying Flash would beat any progamer 3-0 or 3-1 is likely. No he didn't? Was thinking the same thing, Flash v Stork BO5 right now would be beautiful to behold. I'll just have to hope Stork keeps it up and they both make it through to a finals next set of SLs | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
Ironically, I think those who want to see Flash v Stork in a Bo5 should root against Stork. Because if Stork manages to get double gold, I think his interest in BW will pretty much be non-existent again. | ||
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
 But he doesn't impress right now. Is there a way to figure out when the last time Flash+JD weren't Top 2? Whoa, look at the ZvP stats in WL! | ||
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Cpadolf
Sweden1199 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5617 Posts
On January 17 2011 21:43 Holgerius wrote: Stork is ahead of JD in ELO now. O_o JD is looking very beatable in all MU's currently (his once unbeatable ZvP definitely needs some rethinking). I wouldn't be surprised to see him in the MSL final though. But he doesn't impress right now. Is there a way to figure out when the last time Flash+JD weren't Top 2? Whoa, look at the ZvP stats in WL! Yeah, just took a look at them when I realized Jaedong hasn't lost three zvp's in a row since... like 2006 or something. I think the extreme results in pvz in winners league are just temporary, but protoss is doing quite well against zerg in general this season. This is a very good thing for sc imo. I seriously hope Jaedong can get his shit together before his games against Snow. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
Stork ELO peaking! Above Jaedong! It is as I dreamed. | ||
nimdil
Poland3774 Posts
Would love to read a battle report. Jaehoon wins three games in a row only to loose to Stork who wins everything with the ace match at the end. Crazy. Or maybe I'm reading this wrong. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
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vishrut
United States567 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5617 Posts
On January 18 2011 03:44 flamewheel wrote: Shaking my head at Jaedong. flamewheel:  I wonder how much Jaedong will lose because this slump or if he can bounce back. It is hard to judge because he has been playing very very well recently too (against terran atleast). On January 18 2011 02:05 Crisium wrote: But your a CJ fan. Shouldn't you root for your boy Snow? Stork ELO peaking! Above Jaedong! It is as I dreamed. I used to be a big CJ fan; but now that Savior, Effort is gone etc... I feel less for the team. I stick to Jaedong. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On January 17 2011 21:43 Holgerius wrote: Stork is ahead of JD in ELO now. O_o JD is looking very beatable in all MU's currently (his once unbeatable ZvP definitely needs some rethinking). I wouldn't be surprised to see him in the MSL final though. But he doesn't impress right now. Is there a way to figure out when the last time Flash+JD weren't Top 2? Whoa, look at the ZvP stats in WL! JD's loss to Violet is his first loss to someone other than Stork, Bisu or Kal since mid-2009, and counting Bo1's, JD has not lost a BoX to Kal since 2008. I'm not too worried about JD's ZvP form... to be honest, JD's ZvP was never truly dominant over Stork or Bisu to begin with. His real "edge" over them has been that he usually wins BoX's (this time, not counting Bo1's...), but the results are usually close and he frequently drops games to them in PL. | ||
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Goragoth
New Zealand1065 Posts
2011 Shinhan Bank Winners League ZvP: 7-19 (26.9%) Obviously something is going on here. Compare that to WL last year: ZvP: 36-29 (55.4%) So whether it's the maps or the evolution of the matchup in general, things are looking very different. How is anybody surprised that even Jaedong would be affected by something like this? Not to mention his results against Bisu/Stork in PL were never good to begin with. | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
On January 18 2011 10:46 Goragoth wrote: Yeah from TLPD: 2011 Shinhan Bank Winners League ZvP: 7-19 (26.9%) Obviously something is going on here. Compare that to WL last year: ZvP: 36-29 (55.4%) So whether it's the maps or the evolution of the matchup in general, things are looking very different. How is anybody surprised that even Jaedong would be affected by something like this? Not to mention his results against Bisu/Stork in PL were never good to begin with. I'm wondering if somebody can elaborate more on this. Now whenever I see a zvp its just the zerg dieing to speedlots or getting raped 10 minutes in by a protoss ball. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Balance shouldn't really be the issue. Aztec: 36-34 ZvP Benzene: 16-11 Bloody Ridge: 9-7 Circuit Breaker: 12-8 Empire of the Sun: 6-10 Fortress: 15-7 Icarus: 23-20 La Mancha: 1-3 I think part of it is sample size. vsZ: 1. Stork 4-0 1 (tie). Bisu 4-0 3. Stats 3-0 5. Jaehoon 2-0 5. Violet 2-0 Stork and Bisu combine for nearly half of the PvZ wins. Toss in Stats and it's more than half. By comparison, ZvP hasn't yet had anyone stand out. Presumably Jaedong will. It's true that Jaedong is looking beatable lately, but there's no reason yet to think that he can't go on a massive ZvP tear, especially now that OZ has already played Samsung and KT (meaning the #2 and #3 PvZ players by ELO are no longer among his remaining opponents). Meanwhile among Zergs... #2 ZvP by ELO Calm has only twice played Protoss (1-1) with a loss to Bisu #3 ZvP by ELO Zero has yet to play ZvP #4 Hyuk (seriously?) hasn't even played #5 Roro has only played twice (1-1) with a loss to Bisu #6 Kwanro has sat on the bench #7 Shine only played Bisu And now just to see where they are getting knocked out... Calm - Bloody Ridge (9-7 ZvP) Roro - Empire (6-10) Shine - La Mancha (1-3) ...I'm just dredging up numbers here, but the real crux of the matter is that the top PvZ players have been going on tears while most of the top ZvP players haven't even played and were shutdown by Bisu when they did, mostly on the maps in the pool that are best for PvZ. So it's too soon to draw a major conclusion from this. It could be an anomaly. | ||
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Musoeun
United States4324 Posts
Good for Zerg (3) Benzene: 13-9 ZvP, 5-6 ZvT Bloody Ridge: 9-7 ZvP, 3-1 ZvT Circuit Breaker: 5-3 ZvP, 10-5 ZvT Good for ZvP/Bad for ZvT (2) Empire of the Sun (1.0): 3-2 ZvP, 3-5 ZvT Fortress (overall): 6-1 ZvP, 5-9 ZvT Fortress (1.1): 3-0 ZvP, 4-7 ZvT Fortress (SE 2.0): 3-1 ZvP, 1-2 ZvT Grand Line: 5-2 ZvP, 8-14 ZvT Bad for ZvP/Good for ZvT (3) Aztec: 10-20 ZvP, 6-3 ZvT Icarus: 8-11 ZvP, 9-5 ZvT La Mancha: 1-3 ZvP, 1-0 ZvT Average for Zerg (0) Bad for Zerg (2) Central Plain: 1-3 ZvP, 0-1 ZvT Empire of the Sun (overall): 6-10 ZvP, 6-13 ZvT Empire of the Sun (1.3): 3-3 ZvP, 2-5 ZvT Empire of the Sun (1.4): 0-5 ZvP, 1-3 ZvT We've used ten different maps so far (with new versions of a few of them). We're pretty evenly split (5 and 5; 4 and 4 in active maps) between good ZvP maps and bad ZvP maps. So it doesn't seem like results ought to be way off from normal, and yet they are. Part of it is of course the players, as Mortality went through. Most of it's Aztec. Aztec is a way Protoss happy map, unkind to Terran, and has been in use for three rounds now without modification. And for whatever insane reason, it's seen more Zergs than any other map in play except Icarus. So you've got a -10 (or -11; TLPD says 10-21 overall, which doesn't match my personal record but is probably right) right there. And speaking of Icarus, it's contributed: as a good ZvT map, with ZvP being the Zerg-favored matchup overall, it's a "Zerg map" - even though it's a good PvZ map. Then on the good ZvP maps, you had either almost no Protoss (Grand Line) or almost no Zerg (Bloody Ridge, and Fortress although this is changing with WL + new version). So the tl;dr version: Zergs have played most of their ZvP on bad ZvP maps, because the other matchups have tended to limit either the number of Protoss or number of Zerg playing on the good ZvP maps. And then there are lots of Zerg on Aztec for some bizarre reason, throwing it farther out of whack. | ||
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Goragoth
New Zealand1065 Posts
If it was just one player destroying in the matchup (e.g. Bisu) you could write it off as that player improving alone. However, the top 3 PvZ players are currently Elo peaking (Bisu, Stork, Stats), I doubt that is some sort of coincidence. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On January 18 2011 11:58 iamho wrote: I'm wondering if somebody can elaborate more on this. Now whenever I see a zvp its just the zerg dieing to speedlots or getting raped 10 minutes in by a protoss ball. Its just zergs getting greedy, trying to get away with more and more econ (expos and drone whoring) and faster tech before pumping out hydras. The norm used to be a sunken colony or two behind a simcity, and then the protoss would have wasted his first 5-6 zealots a-walking into the natural. Toss players finally learned to evolve past throwing away their starting armies for no reason while trying to hit that timing. Too many times now we've seen zergs put down a 4th with only a sunk or two at the 2 naturals, and try to pump out another round or two of drones before beginning their army, and by that time decisive toss players have what it takes to break them. Whether its speedlots, mass sair and dts, reavers or shuttle play for drops in the mains. The fault is with the zergs not getting any units out because they still think they can get away with it. Given enough time things will balance themselves out as they always do. + Show Spoiler [recent games] + Jaedong's recent ZvP is exactly what I'm talking about. He keeps on trying to be greedy with his no-unit early-hive build, and that only works against indecisive protoss players that don't push. Well the secret is out now, and you'll see more and more of the 'lesser' toss players punishing this behavior. | ||
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