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Talic_Zealot
688 Posts
Either a straight up Gom after ro 64 tournament or a straight up w/l bracket would be my choice. In any case there is always a chance for a big upset where the winner is not necessary the best player and a good but not very good chance that the best player will win. | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
On a side note, why does it work in Halo? How is their bracket any different than ours? | ||
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Zeddicus
United States239 Posts
That being said, however, tournaments are not accurate in general. It's kind of like "Any given Sunday..." and it's what makes tournaments interesting. It's random, unpredictable. It's exciting. If we wanted to know who was the best, we shuold have everyone ladder constantly and just look at ladder rankings. Or if we wanted a tournament that was accurate, we'd have them play Bo7s all the way through, or Bo17s... Bo50s? But we can't, we don't have time for that. The only way we can hold a tournament in a reasonable amount of time with a decent amount of people is to have tournames run the way they are now. I don't really like the extended series rule, but it's not that big of a deal. I don't have any better ideas, I don't think there's much of a better way to run a tournament. | ||
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wololo
Sweden10 Posts
without the Extended Series rule, X wins over Y in the WB 2-0, then Y wins over X in the LB 2-0. Up until this point Y has lost one match (against X) whereas X has lost two matches (one against Y and one against another person in the WB) this to me says Y deserves to move on, as he both had to play and win more games than X. EDIT: Typo: added X instead of Y. lol. | ||
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vhdblood
4 Posts
MLG feels tourneys should be taken as one performance. They think that when you compete in a tournament it's a showing for you, so if you knock a guy out 2-0, you shouldn't have to do that later in the SAME tourney. If he knocks you out 0-2, then you should have to work even harder if you meet that player again because he's already beaten you once 2-0, and you're the same players. It's a really hard problem to come up with an answer for, but it sounds like MLG is keeping the rule so we might as well deal. | ||
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Malloy
Canada166 Posts
On December 03 2010 04:02 wololo wrote: @malloy without the Extended Series rule, X wins over Y in the WB 2-0, then Y wins over X in the LB 2-0. Up until this point Y has lost one match (against X) whereas X has lost two matches (one against Y and one against another person in the WB) this to me says Y deserves to move on, as he both had to play and win more games than Y. What? Are you trying to say that the person in the loser bracket has to play one additional series before meeting up with the person that originally knocked them out? If you are...keep in mind that those in the losers bracket have already been tagged as been "Not as good as" those in the winners bracket. So winning your first loser's bracket series means very little in context. The second set of series in the winner's bracket should have better players than the first set of series in the loser's bracket. | ||
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wololo
Sweden10 Posts
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
On December 01 2010 14:44 Tump wrote: Starcraft and extended series don't belong in the same sentence. Get rid of this crappy rule ASAP, it would be completely unacceptable to keep it in the rules. Almost mind boggling who is pulling the strings at MLG. Why can't they hire rule admins that know stuff about games they admin? Actually they do. The admins for Super Smash are all well known former tournament organizers, players, etc... With SC2 it's a little newer so I think they had to squeeze in some help from their WoW division, but they have some SC people there too. | ||
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Jampackedeon
United States2053 Posts
If Nestea had been booted to another bracket (if it wasn't the finals) in the R of 7 in the GSL... he would have LOST, instead he won 4 more games and took the series. | ||
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Silent331
United States356 Posts
 everywhere else the mods yelled at meExtended Series and Starcraft What Is Extended Series Many people know what the extended series rule is but I will still explain it for all those who don’t. Extended series is a tournament rule that says the following, in a double elimination tournament when two players play each other in the winners bracket and player A loses and player B wins than player A is put into the losers bracket, as like any other double elimination tournament. Extended series comes into play when player B loses to another player in the winners bracket and gets moved down into the losers bracket, and then because player A was moved into the losers bracket before, they get paired up again. In other words the extended rule applies when player A and player B play each other in the winners bracket and then play each other again in the losers bracket. What the extended series rule says that if player B won 2-0 in the winners bracket, and they play again in the losers bracket, than the game that would normally be a BO3 in the losers bracket becomes a BO7 with player B starting with a 2-0 on player A. Why MLG uses extended series Most of what I am going to say here comes from the SOTG cast because it is the only reliable source of why MLG uses this rule. The rule arises from the concept that a tournament is a measure of performance and that should stay with you. So that if you already beat someone in a BO3 than if you face them you are already ahead because you won against them in this tournament. The other reason it is used is because if you play someone and you beat them 2-0 and then they beat you 2-0 later than you are 2-2 but you lost because you won the first and lost the second, which they think is unfair. All of this makes sense on a player vs player level. Why it doesn’t work When using this extended series rule it is partly forgotten that the players are still playing a tournament and they are not in some arbitrary system of ranking. In a double elimination tournament every series is a best of 3 and each person, in order to stay in the tournament, cannot lose two best of 3s hence double elimination. In a double elimination the fact that if you lose once does not eliminate you brings about the possibility that players can vs the same player in two best of 3s. When this happens and the extended series rule applied this changes the structure of the tournament because of a chance happening in the winners brackets. Now that they are playing each other for the second time, the person who lost the first game, if he loses another best of 3 is still eliminated, but the winner of the first series gets to get a free loss vs this player, making it so that player gets eliminated if he loses 3 best of 3s instead of 2. What this means is that a player can advance in the losers bracket even know he already lost 2 best of 3s while the opponent he eliminated only lost 2 best of 3s. So now the person who won the first best of 3 vs a player and meets him again does not only gain an advantage over that player but he also gains an advantage over everyone else in the tournament in the light that he is allowed to lose more games than everyone else and still advance. Closing Comments Time to suck up to MLG XD. MLG you run great tourneys and I watch them all and if one comes to a town near me I will defiantly come. No part of this is to say that MLG is bad it is all simply an explanation of the rule, why its used, and some reasons that should be considered for altering this rule. | ||
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TemplarCo.
Mexico2870 Posts
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Furycrab
Canada456 Posts
On December 03 2010 03:52 Najda wrote: I think when they meet again in the losers bracket it should just be another Bo3, but if the person who lost the original series were to meet up with that person in the finals then it would make sense to play the extended series because the person coming from the losers bracket should be handicapped. On a side note, why does it work in Halo? How is their bracket any different than ours? I don't really want to comment on the first part since it's a matter of different views, I don't so much care who got sent to losers bracket first, what I do care is that the better of the two players in that tournament be the one going thru, not just the one who happened to win the last two games. It's not so much that it "works for halo" it's a fairly common rule in most round based play with double elim. Counterstrike has this rule very often too. Halo plays sets on different maps, and the reason for the rule is to avoid a split, where overall both teams have won an equal amount of rounds or worst, that the team with most won rounds isn't going thru. However they rarely play BO3s (usually a lot more rounds), so the impact is quite a bit less dramatic unless the first match was fairly one sided. | ||
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Polygamy
Austria1114 Posts
I think that's how the Russians do it? | ||
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ZomB
United States8 Posts
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
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Kelsin
United States253 Posts
The other best argument (imho) about it is the fact that it means you can be eliminated from the tournament in one of two ways. Either losing 1 bo7 or losing 2 bo3's. I don't think how you're eliminated should come down to bracket luck. | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
On December 03 2010 03:52 Najda wrote: On a side note, why does it work in Halo? How is their bracket any different than ours? Someone can correct me if i'm wrong but my understanding (as a former LAN FPS player CPL 3rd wut wut!) that HALO and other FPS games compete on a LEVEL playing field. You either out play, out think, out whatever your opponent or you don't. The team that played better will win and the better team is MORE likely to win at a much higher rate. In my previous FPS experience (team fortress classic) we held a 90%+ winrate because we were simply the better players congregated into 1 team. Now Starcraft is such a highly variable game. First, maps make a HUGE difference, getting a bad map pool for your race automatically puts you at a disadvantage. This disadvantage usually isn't insurmountable but it can be significant. This doesn't exist in (most) competitive FPS games. Not to mention how many different ways you can play SC2, build orders, cheeses, different races, etc. and the competition level at the tip top. Anyone in the top50 best players in the country can take a game or series off of one another. The best players in BW of all time have what 72% win? An insanely good gosu as fuck player may win 60% just six out of 10 games and that would make you a fucking baller. I'd wager the #50 Halo has essentially 0 chance to pull a series off the #1 Halo team. In my experience in a top FPS team I don't think we lost to anyone outside the top5 or so. | ||
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theMedic
United States26 Posts
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LaughingTulkas
United States1107 Posts
On December 03 2010 05:28 Silent90 wrote: When using this extended series rule it is partly forgotten that the players are still playing a tournament and they are not in some arbitrary system of ranking. I Actually, one might make the case that a tournament is in fact exactly a system of ranking. Don't college football fans want a playoff tourney so they can "know who is the best team?" The exact purpose of a play-off is to determine who is the "best team" at least for that tournament. The problem is, there are variables that affect this and prevent it from being completely accurate. In sports, especially football, playing too many more games is impractical, and hence more accurate tournament styles (such as double elimination, round-robin, etc) aren't used. But everyone wants it to be as accurate as possible. Hence computer rankings in college football. Hence series' in baseball and basketball where more than one game isn't accurate enough. Hence more games in final series too make the finals the most accurate. You already made the case for the extended series very well, I won't add to it. But your (and most other people's) criticisms seems to be centered around the fact that it hasn't been done before. In most sports double elimination tournaments aren't even possible, and so this doesn't come up, but in the confines of esports, it makes perfect sense to play the couple extra games so that the most accurate results are obtained. The only purpose of a tournament is to find a winner. | ||
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Storm704
United States114 Posts
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