EPTPower Rank 09/14/2010 - Page 9
| Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet |
Manifesto7
Osaka27146 Posts
| ||
|
Manit0u
Poland17249 Posts
| ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On September 16 2010 08:47 Severedevil wrote: Flash's domination period so far is one year long, if we're generous. And while he went 3-1 against Jaedong in starleague finals, he got some seriously Terran-fellating maps for two of those four finals, one of which he lost and the other of which he won 3-2, winning only on the Terran-fellating maps. You'll forgive me if I don't interpret this as "ZOMG FLASH IS GOD HE HAS DEFEATED JAEDONG AND ALL THE PAST BONJWAS NOW AND FOREVER." Particularly when Jaedong was also a powerhouse-into-THE-DOMINANT-PLAYER last year, and had an almost-as-strong Proleague performance this year. ("But Jaedong never won Proleague!" Yeah, but neither did Flash. KT did. Notice that Flash was not required to win several games against the best TvZ and PvZ in the world for his team to win. He was forced to win a single game against the worst A-Team ZvT in the world.) Flash is Bonjwa-level dominant. So is Jaedong. Flash did better this year than Jaedong, after doing worse in previous years than Jaedong. The 2010-2011 dominance wars should be very exciting - particularly if the non-Bonjwa S-Class of Effort/Stork/Bisu/Fantasy (and maybe Leta or Zero?) is up to the challenge. You can't really compare Jaedongs dominance with Flash's. 3 consecutive dual finals is an unbelievable feat really and I don't think enough people actually understand this. | ||
|
SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
At least I know when to stop. | ||
|
nimoraca
Serbia84 Posts
That world exists, its called the PR. | ||
|
darkmetal505
United States639 Posts
On September 16 2010 21:06 nimoraca wrote: Its nice to have a place, your own imaginary little world, where Jaedong did not get destroyed and crashed by Flash, where he played on the same level and just couldn't take the titles (three times in a row), where a losing score of 3vs9 in important finals means nothing, where Flash didn't made it to a six consecutive finals, where he didn't break both the elo and kespa point record, where... That world exists, its called the PR. I didn't see Jaedong get crushed by Flash. He didn't play on the same level, but he definitely isn't as far behind as people are suggesting. 3-9 doesn't mean all that much either. The closest Jaedong could've gotten and Flash still winning all the finals would've ben 6-9, a 3 game difference. You're claiming a 3 game difference is the key to showing that Jaedong got "destroyed and crashed"? A good number of the games, Jaedong didn't get the opportunity to show his highest level play and neither did Flash. Advancing to 6 consecutive finals is indeed an awesome feat, I'll admit. | ||
|
nimoraca
Serbia84 Posts
On September 16 2010 23:32 darkmetal505 wrote: I didn't see Jaedong get crushed by Flash. He didn't play on the same level, but he definitely isn't as far behind as people are suggesting. 3-9 doesn't mean all that much either. The closest Jaedong could've gotten and Flash still winning all the finals would've ben 6-9, a 3 game difference. You're claiming a 3 game difference is the key to showing that Jaedong got "destroyed and crashed"? A good number of the games, Jaedong didn't get the opportunity to show his highest level play and neither did Flash. Advancing to 6 consecutive finals is indeed an awesome feat, I'll admit. Who says Jeadong couldn't win any of those finals. I don't. The "closest" he could have gotten would be Jaedong 9, Flash 0  . Instead he went Jaedong 3, Flash 9. There is a big difference. | ||
|
champignones
Panama160 Posts
This PR writer really SUCK, and is not impartial at all, and you cant do things like this if you arent impartial. we want ALL flash accomplishments with little more excitement as if were that JD would have won those tittles, recognize him as the history he had made. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
|
Elroi
Sweden5595 Posts
| ||
Peeano
Netherlands4987 Posts
2. Hoejja 3. JD | ||
|
Monsen
Germany2548 Posts
| ||
|
L0thar
987 Posts
On September 17 2010 00:43 Elroi wrote: God... aren't you Flash fans being a bit pathetic now? No one says he is not a bonjwa. For me it's a little hard to be super exited about his run 1) because he beat my favorit player 2) he is another terran bonjwa in a time when terran is super strong. But stop complaining about guys who don't go crazy over his victories, it's idiotic. Everyone knows he is the best in the world right now. Be happy. Wtf? Terran is super strong these times? That must be the reason why we got so many terran finalist and semifinalist last couple of seasons in individual leagues, right? Oh wait, only terran who was able to win something for like a year is Flash. Only terran who managed to get into final of any individual league is...wait for it...only Flash again! I guess zerg fans just got used to swarm season having ZvZ finals in both leagues and when ONE terran is doing good, then the whole race is suddenly super strong, eh? What Flash accomplished is even more impressive because he did it in times when terran players in general struggled hard. On September 16 2010 07:37 SubtleArt wrote: He beat Hyuk. HYUK. I can't think of a single run of the mill Terran that couldn't beat Hyuk the way he's playing right now. If you honestly believe the only thing Flash did in the finals is beating Hyuk, then we have to agree to disagree. On September 16 2010 08:47 Severedevil wrote: Flash's domination period so far is one year long, if we're generous. And while he went 3-1 against Jaedong in starleague finals, he got some seriously Terran-fellating maps for two of those four finals, one of which he lost and the other of which he won 3-2, winning only on the Terran-fellating maps. You'll forgive me if I don't interpret this as "ZOMG FLASH IS GOD HE HAS DEFEATED JAEDONG AND ALL THE PAST BONJWAS NOW AND FOREVER." Particularly when Jaedong was also a powerhouse-into-THE-DOMINANT-PLAYER last year, and had an almost-as-strong Proleague performance this year. ("But Jaedong never won Proleague!" Yeah, but neither did Flash. KT did. Notice that Flash was not required to win several games against the best TvZ and PvZ in the world for his team to win. He was forced to win a single game against the worst A-Team ZvT in the world.) Nice cherry picking. I especially like how you put great emphasis on imbalanced maps and then complety ignore that in OSL Flash actually lost on Polaris Rhapsody and Jaedong lost on Dreamliner. Maybe the imbalance didn't play such huge role after all? And yes, KT won the proleague, not just Flash. But only idiot would try to deny that it was mainly thanks to Flash. I really wonder when the "lol KTFlash is total failure without their child labor" opinion changed to "KT won the PL, Flash did basically nothing remarkable"... | ||
|
Elroi
Sweden5595 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:03 L0thar wrote: Wtf? Terran is super strong these times? That must be the reason why we got so many terran finalist and semifinalist last couple of seasons in individual leagues, right? Oh wait, only terran who was able to win something for like a year is Flash. Only terran who managed to get into final of any individual league is...wait for it...only Flash again! Jaedong is a fenomenon, but exept for him I wouldn't say that any z in the world is a favorit to take a straight up game against any one of the top 5 terrans. And the same is true in zvp, where protoss struggle just as much. The difference is that terran doesn't have a weak match up. No point arguing about it, just look at the stats. In swarm season, terran still had 51% win rate over zerg. In WL this season tvz was up to 64% (!). And in all leagues this saeson (MSL, OSL, PL) terran has had a good win rate (>50%) against protoss. | ||
|
Malinor
Germany4721 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:03 L0thar wrote: What Flash accomplished is even more impressive because he did it in times when terran players in general struggled hard. Terrans didn't struggle hard, nothing really indicates that. Winrates have been pretty normal last year. Two seasons without another terran in semis is of course noteable, but the last season with 3/4 MSL Semis (5/8 quarters) and 3/8 in OSL quarters is not struggeling hard. The term struggeling hard should be reserved for protoss players this last season, which mostly is because they lack a leader of the pack, semi-final appearances and winrates were fine too. Everytime when I see people put their hopes in Kal and Free, I die a little inside. These two will never win a Starleague ever. Mentioning that no terran won anything when Flash took everything there was to win is funny though I will never understand why everyone is so obsessed with the B-word, I really really don't, what's wrong with calling someone the best there is? But while we are at it. When 4 out of 5 B-words are terran, you may consider this in your quest explaining to us how Flash is the savior of the poor terran race. Still hard to believe how good Flash was this last year. Crazy stuff. | ||
|
Hugo(Sphere)
United States44 Posts
I didn't see Jaedong get crushed by Flash. He didn't play on the same level, but he definitely isn't as far behind as people are suggesting. 3-9 doesn't mean all that much either. The closest Jaedong could've gotten and Flash still winning all the finals would've ben 6-9, a 3 game difference. You're claiming a 3 game difference is the key to showing that Jaedong got "destroyed and crashed"? A good number of the games, Jaedong didn't get the opportunity to show his highest level play and neither did Flash. This isn't golf, where Tiger won by 24 strokes and you can say the others didn't play as well. Half the reason Jaedong didn't play well is because he wasn't given an opportunity to. Then he took a totally different tact in the OSL showing he has no confidence to win a long management game against Flash. When the best guy has to change his game because he doesn't think he can win that smells of domination to me. It's like if Federer decided he couldn't beat Rafa in a groundstroke game anymore, played serve and volley and got smoked. You could say, oh well Federer didn't play his best game, what's he doing serve and volleying? But then once you answer that question of why, the reality becomes clear. | ||
|
L0thar
987 Posts
Name one terran who did something remarkable during last year, one terran who won something. There is none, except for Flash obviously. Fantasy would be the second best and one may argue that he had bad luck running into Flash in MSL and WCG, but he also happened to drop from group stages in OSL... I find it hard to believe that terrans are super strong now when every non Flash terran is failing over and over. | ||
|
Elroi
Sweden5595 Posts
On September 17 2010 03:38 Hugo(Sphere) wrote: This isn't golf, where Tiger won by 24 strokes and you can say the others didn't play as well. Half the reason Jaedong didn't play well is because he wasn't given an opportunity to. Then he took a totally different tact in the OSL showing he has no confidence to win a long management game against Flash. When the best guy has to change his game because he doesn't think he can win that smells of domination to me. It's like if Federer decided he couldn't beat Rafa in a groundstroke game anymore, played serve and volley and got smoked. You could say, oh well Federer didn't play his best game, what's he doing serve and volleying? But then once you answer that question of why, the reality becomes clear. Yeah Jaedong needed to mix his game up to have chance to win... but you didn't notice that flash cheesed twice in the final too? | ||
|
darkmetal505
United States639 Posts
On September 16 2010 23:49 nimoraca wrote: Who says Jeadong couldn't win any of those finals. I don't. The "closest" he could have gotten would be Jaedong 9, Flash 0 . Instead he went Jaedong 3, Flash 9. There is a big difference.You aren't understanding what I'm saying. People are using the 9-3 as a statistic to show how dominant Flash is over Jaedong, disregarding the quality of the games. Assuming the overall outcome is the same (Flash wins all 3 of the finals), the closest Jaedong could've gotten is 9-6, a 3 game differential from 9-3. Say that this did happen, that each final went 3-2,3-2,3-2. That's only a jump from 25% to 40% win rate for Jaedong. Would you still claim Flash dominant over Jaedong? . If you don't, then you're saying somewhere in this 15% determines whether Flash "destroys" Jaedong or not. Since games are measured in discrete amounts, somewhere in between (9-4, 9-5) determines threshold for dominance. What is the highest Jaedong could've gone for you to say Flash did not dominate Jaedong? On the other hand, if you claim that 9-6 still does show dominance, then you are either extremely biased towards Flash in the first place OR its not the win/loss ratio of individual games you care about but rather that Flash beat Jaedong in 3 seperate Bo5s. You would be implying that winning in 3 Bo5s over the same opponent is indicative of dominance regardless of how close the game differential is. If I beat you 9-6, would you be able to accept me being supremely dominant over you? AND this is all setting aside the content of the matches, which in my opinion, is the biggest factor. The number of games in which I truly saw Flash outclass Jaedong is very small. For me to say that Flash is really a distinct level above Jaedong, I need to see more evidence of this. In addition, for this to happen, I need to see Flash beating Jaedong when they are both at their absolute best. How else can you claim Flash so much better than Jaedong? This is the reason I don't call Flash bonjwa, because I haven't felt this distinction between him and others. I want to assure you that this is not because I am more of a Jaedong fan. Even the MSL semis between Flash and Fantasy was extremely close; I could see Flash had the edge. Not enough of an edge though for me to call Flash so much better, and I fucking hate Fantasy, I mean I will not miss a chance to bash him if I get one. For the previous bonjwas, I saw people trying their extreme hardest but still fail. I mean, every Terran KNEW Savior would go 3 hatch muta into defiler, but they couldn't do a single thing. This sort of stuff just doesn't happen anymore. The second you become predictable, you get beat. Effort beating Flash by aggressive play is a prime example. No doubt Flash is a better player, but Broodwar has evolved to a level where even though you maybe better, your opponents are snapping at your heels. The second Flash let his guard down, Effort lept on the chance and beat him. It wasn't a fluke, Effort was just a better player that evening, no matter what strategies he used. Flash's record, although astonishing, doesn't tell me anything about how close he is to his opponents. Because of this I can honestly say, I don't think there can be a bonjwa anymore. There will never be that much of a dichotomy between players. If you do claim Flash bonjwa, it has to be based on his record (which I find meaningless in the discussion anyway), and thus Jaedong has the right to be also. The way I see it is that a bonjwa will many titles because he is that much better than everyone, but winning lots of titles doesn't qualify one as a bonjwa, although it is often indicative. It's the causation vs association argument. Thus, give Flash a awesome new nickname. I'm fine with "God" Young-Ho, but not a name that has another connotation which is outdated. This is exactly what the PR does and which is why I don't see the unrest about it. Something about Flash's achievements belongs in a well written article, not here. tl:dr 9-3 doesn't tell me jack shit about difference in skill. I still don't see Flash is that far a level above JD. | ||
|
Crisium
United States1618 Posts
3 Terran:  FlashFantasyLight5 Zerg:  JaedongEffOrtCalmShineKwanro5 Protoss:  MoviefreeKalStorkPureTerran is not dominating, FLASH is dominating. We still see some of the dragons, mainly Stork and Best, make Terrans look like ants. We saw free and even Bisu do quite well against Zergs recently. It's really the "Flash" problem then it is a Terran problem. The MSL this season was a bit stacked, but in the 2 before Flash was the only semi-finalist - you can't ignore that. | ||
|
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
| ||
| ||
