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On September 16 2010 07:37 SubtleArt wrote:
He beat Hyuk. HYUK. I can't think of a single run of the mill Terran that couldn't beat Hyuk the way he's playing right now.
So losing ace matches when it could possibly mean your team loses its direct place in the finals is letting your team down, but winning the game that clinches the most important title in its history deserves no credit because it was against an inferior opponent?
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On September 16 2010 03:45 Fenrax wrote:
Seriously, I laugh about the stupidity or close-mindedness of the people who refuse to call Flash the Bonjwa of our time. Dual Finals twice in a row, 3 of them won, PL won, WL won, WCG Korea qualified, highest ELO of all times by miles, revolutionizing every matchup, he has done everything. Saying he is no Bonjwa because of one loss to Effort is flat out stupid, because if a player had to win EVERY league 2 times in as row, then NO ONE would ever have been Bonjwa, not Savior, not NaDa, not Boxer, not Iloveoov.
Are we really doing this?
K.
Flash's domination period so far is one year long, if we're generous. And while he went 3-1 against Jaedong in starleague finals, he got some seriously Terran-fellating maps for two of those four finals, one of which he lost and the other of which he won 3-2, winning only on the Terran-fellating maps. You'll forgive me if I don't interpret this as "ZOMG FLASH IS GOD HE HAS DEFEATED JAEDONG AND ALL THE PAST BONJWAS NOW AND FOREVER." Particularly when Jaedong was also a powerhouse-into-THE-DOMINANT-PLAYER last year, and had an almost-as-strong Proleague performance this year. ("But Jaedong never won Proleague!" Yeah, but neither did Flash. KT did. Notice that Flash was not required to win several games against the best TvZ and PvZ in the world for his team to win. He was forced to win a single game against the worst A-Team ZvT in the world.)
Flash is Bonjwa-level dominant. So is Jaedong. Flash did better this year than Jaedong, after doing worse in previous years than Jaedong. The 2010-2011 dominance wars should be very exciting - particularly if the non-Bonjwa S-Class of Effort/Stork/Bisu/Fantasy (and maybe Leta or Zero?) is up to the challenge.
On September 16 2010 08:45 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:37 SubtleArt wrote:
He beat Hyuk. HYUK. I can't think of a single run of the mill Terran that couldn't beat Hyuk the way he's playing right now.
So losing ace matches when it could possibly mean your team loses its direct place in the finals is letting your team down, but winning the game that clinches the most important title in its history deserves no credit because it was against an inferior opponent?
Losing many consecutive ace matches erodes the claim that you're THE GOD-MODE LORD OF ALL than winning one high-stakes match against a shitty player supports it, yes.
My favorite players are Stork/Jaedong/Leta, and I wouldn't suck their dicks for losing lots of ace matches and then beating Hyuk once.
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On September 16 2010 08:00 TaimalaiX wrote:
It's not about him beating Hyuk, it's about the fact that he was so dominant over the course of the PL that KT got to analyze SKT and take them down handily. Yes he had a mini-slump in ace matches but in the end all that did was keep him from extending his PL wins record even farther.
How is it possible that people go from "KTFlash" to "he beat Hyuk, he didn't do anything" without realizing how stupid the jump is? This isn't specifically at SubtleArt, rather at posters in general who choose to focus on Flash beating a ZvT newbie rather than him being in that situation because KT got matchups they wanted all over the place as a result of having weeks to prepare for the match. It's ridiculous.
It's a monthly power rank, treat it as such. This has nothing to do with how he preformed over the season. If you really wanna jump the the "recent" proleague results, Flash blew 7 ace matches in a row and had it not been for STX's devastating slump, KT would have lost first place.
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On September 16 2010 08:47 Severedevil wrote:
Losing many consecutive ace matches erodes the claim that you're THE GOD-MODE LORD OF ALL than winning one high-stakes match against a shitty player supports it, yes.
My favorite players are Stork/Jaedong/Leta, and I wouldn't suck their dicks for losing lots of ace matches and then beating Hyuk once.
I was reacting to the earlier comment that Flash somehow let his team down. I'm sure few of his teammates or KT supporters felt that way at the end of the season.
As for the god mode, if you play 180 games in a season and win 80% you're going to lose 36. Some of those are probably not even against top players. It was a long season and you can cherry pick the worst (losing against Effort and his ace match losing streak) to try to prove a point. But I think that's quite disingenuous.
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United States33339 Posts
you're all doing fine, continue =o
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On September 16 2010 09:20 Waxangel wrote:
you're all doing fine, continue =o
New challenge: write a power rank that everyone completely agrees with, making sure that the description for each person satisfies everybody as well as regurgitates facts we all know.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Whatever, Wax did a terrific job writing the PR in my opinion.
A PR that generates 800+ comments is not necessarily a good thing. It simply means it is too controversial for trolls to pass by.
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On September 16 2010 08:47 Severedevil wrote:
Flash's domination period so far is one year long, if we're generous.
This is the only argument left for those that cannot accept the truth. It doesn't matter if Flash equaled Savior's medals in two less seasons It doesn't matter that he did better than NaDa during NaDa's one year peak. It's that he only has only had 3 seasons / 1 year of dominance? What an annoying argument you have there.
Fine. Nada, oov, and Savior all made at least one final for 4 consecutive seasons (Savior 5). So when Flash makes the OSL final again in January, even those of you that reach and claw for anything negative to say about not being a bonjwa will officially be crap. Even if it's JD vs Flash and JD wins, you will be out of any reasonable argument to not call Flash bonjwa. Even if Flash loses in the Ro16 I will call this period part of his era. Savior lost in the Ro36 more than once during his so called era. You guys really hold the old names in too high regard. Yes JD would have acquired that title if Flash had been forced to retire in 2009, but that doesn't mean that Flash has proven his is superior and earned the title. If JD wins the next 3 OSL's in a row we'll call him it too.
I root against Flash every chance I get. But he's accomplished equal or more than any other of the legends of old could do in a year.
On September 16 2010 08:06 Crisium wrote:+ Show Spoiler +NaDa:
4 Golds in 3 Seasons
Flash:
4 Golds and 2 Silver in 3 Seasons
Savior:
4 Golds and 2 Silver in ~5 Seasons*
Flash beats everyone!
*The MSL was kinda funky with its seasons around 2005-2006. But he made 5 MSL finals in a row, so we'll say 5 seasons.
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I already call Flash a bonjwa. You have to argue that Jaedong isn't.
Incidentally, he's been in a final for the past five seasons, if you consider that number important.
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Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status.
A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
For those who missed the post-OSL interview
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On September 16 2010 09:01 SubtleArt wrote:
It's a monthly power rank, treat it as such. This has nothing to do with how he preformed over the season.
1. Flash. OSL champion, dominated the runner-up in a clear 3-1 victory.
2. Flash. MSL champion, won a close victory against the runner-up.
3. Jaedong. Won WCG Korea, the Bo3 consolation match of no significance.
You like this more?
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On September 16 2010 11:02 Severedevil wrote:
I already call Flash a bonjwa. You have to argue that Jaedong isn't.
Incidentally, he's been in a final for the past five seasons, if you consider that number important.
Yeah JD is scarily close to earning that title. But it's more than finals, it's also Golds that show you are the best player. NaDa, Oov, and Savior not only made a finals appearance in 4 or 5 consecutive seasons, but they won 4 Golds. JD has 3. Close, but no cigar. Flash meanwhile, has the cigar by all standards except the 4+ seasons finals (4 golds). But considering he has beaten the rest of them in every other category... I fail to see how that stops him. Unless you absolutely dictate that you need 4 Seasons to be bonjwa...
Past 3 Seasons, Flash has 4 Gold and 2 Silver. JD Has 1 Gold and 3 Silver. Flash has done enough to separate himself above JD. And considering how razor thin JD is to the title... then Flash has to be it (as you agreed).
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On September 16 2010 11:19 bluetrolls wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 09:01 SubtleArt wrote:
It's a monthly power rank, treat it as such. This has nothing to do with how he preformed over the season. 1. Flash. OSL champion, dominated the runner-up in a clear 3-1 victory. 2. Flash. MSL champion, won a close victory against the runner-up. 3. Jaedong. Won WCG Korea, the Bo3 consolation match of no significance. You like this more?
? Obviously I agree with the number 1, just saying that he didnt contribute much to the proleague finals. Don't see how what you're saying is relevant.
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On September 16 2010 11:23 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 11:19 bluetrolls wrote:On September 16 2010 09:01 SubtleArt wrote:
It's a monthly power rank, treat it as such. This has nothing to do with how he preformed over the season. 1. Flash. OSL champion, dominated the runner-up in a clear 3-1 victory. 2. Flash. MSL champion, won a close victory against the runner-up. 3. Jaedong. Won WCG Korea, the Bo3 consolation match of no significance. You like this more? ? Obviously I agree with the number 1, just saying that he didnt contribute much to the proleague finals. Don't see how what you're saying is relevant.
You want to ignore the season performance and concentrate only on the past month. I'm giving you a fair Power Rank based on your own requirement and on Power Rank tradition on having 1-2 the winners of MSL/OSL. Based on monthly performance, Flash secured number 1 and number 2. If the concern is truly the month performance, then number 2 isn't quite right in this PowerRank.
Power Rank as of 05/31/2010 1. Flash MSL, 2. Effort OSL
Power Rank as of 01/31/2010 1. Flash OSL, 2. Jaedong MSL
Power Rank as of 09/01/2009 1. Jaedong OSL 2. Fantasy PL 3. Calm MSL
Fun quote, re enthusiasm or lack thereof: Final, thereby securing a back to back OSL Finals spot, an opportunity he would turn into a back to back OSL win, the first since Lim Yo Hwan himself, and as we all know thanks to the gushing of a million fanboys, the third Golden Mouse in Starcraft history.
Power Rank as of 04/10/2009 1. Jaedong OSL, 2. Luxury MSL
Fun quote, re gushing enthusiasm or lack thereof: Ladies and gentlemen, if you want to name ANYONE "Bonjwa" in these chaotic times, this is the ticket. Jaedong has no weak matchups. Jaedong is 80% in his mirror matchup. Jaedong is the beginning and end of every criteria Zerg is currently measured by. The fact that he just won an OSL is small potatoes in comparison to actually watching his games. What a fucking MONSTER.
Power Rank as of 12/14/2008 1. Bisu MSL 2. Stork OSL
undsoweiter, undsoweiter
To end on a high note, I'd like to thank Waxangel for taking the responsibility to summarize, to the best of his abilities, the recent state of the BW scene.
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I thing it's pretty obvious Flash largely deserve to be called Bonjwa. His level of domination is unmatched. I don't question his skill, nor the fact he's the best among the best, he is the best player of all time.
But I do question his entertainment value . His conservative style annoys me. I like terrans with harassment still like Fantasy not turtle like Flash. Look at this Game of Fantasy versus Shuttle. Even thought the level was not that hight, I spend half the game laughing my ass off. Maybe building 100 turrets is safer but it's not gonna make me hype.
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That was closed fast. At least I got to vote Flash bonjwa lol 
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I don't understand. Have you people who say that Flash turtles every game and is boring only seen his game against Zero or something?
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On September 16 2010 12:33 space_yes wrote:That was closed fast. At least I got to vote Flash bonjwa lol
They can close that thread, but they can't close this one.
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l0st_romantic
September 16 2010 12:32
I vote for Flash to be declared Bonjwa in a TL Final Edit. OR for Waxangel to change the PR to acknowledge Flash's Bonjwa-hood.
User was warned for this post
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Also, additional poll for this PR:
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
