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I was about to write this exact list, just with the opposite conclusion lol.
A 3 / 5 / 5 composition over the cause of 6 events is not statistically significant, not even close. I don't want to be an ass, but you can basically not draw any conclusion about terrans relative strength from these numbers, absolutely none.
When you have Swarm Season and 4 Zs in the finals, that's probably not statistically significant either, but you can at least use common sense. With a 3 /5 /5 distribution, you can say absolutely nothing. What you can see is that One player was in 6 finals and one other player was in 4 finals, basically what we already know: There is Flash, then there is Jaedong (how big that gap is, that is basically the discussion of the last month on TL) and then there is nothing for a very long time.
Whether Shine, Light or Pure lucks it's way to the semi-finals once in a while is completely irrelevant.
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Ah well, I misread your post, because I don't even contradict you. What you are saying is obviously right. Flashs dominance is not explained by a terran dominance. He is just as well not hindered by him playing terran (that is what I wanted to argue actually, some people here sound like that he is the only one who can compete with terran and that it's something special).
As you said, it's just Flash dominating.
Sorry about that. I will just leave my post there so people can see my stupidy.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2010 02:03 L0thar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 00:43 Elroi wrote:
God... aren't you Flash fans being a bit pathetic now? No one says he is not a bonjwa. For me it's a little hard to be super exited about his run 1) because he beat my favorit player 2) he is another terran bonjwa in a time when terran is super strong. But stop complaining about guys who don't go crazy over his victories, it's idiotic. Everyone knows he is the best in the world right now. Be happy. Wtf? Terran is super strong these times? That must be the reason why we got so many terran finalist and semifinalist last couple of seasons in individual leagues, right? Oh wait, only terran who was able to win something for like a year is Flash. Only terran who managed to get into final of any individual league is...wait for it...only Flash again! I guess zerg fans just got used to swarm season having ZvZ finals in both leagues and when ONE terran is doing good, then the whole race is suddenly super strong, eh? What Flash accomplished is even more impressive because he did it in times when terran players in general struggled hard. Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:37 SubtleArt wrote:
He beat Hyuk. HYUK. I can't think of a single run of the mill Terran that couldn't beat Hyuk the way he's playing right now.
If you honestly believe the only thing Flash did in the finals is beating Hyuk, then we have to agree to disagree. Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 08:47 Severedevil wrote:
Flash's domination period so far is one year long, if we're generous. And while he went 3-1 against Jaedong in starleague finals, he got some seriously Terran-fellating maps for two of those four finals, one of which he lost and the other of which he won 3-2, winning only on the Terran-fellating maps. You'll forgive me if I don't interpret this as "ZOMG FLASH IS GOD HE HAS DEFEATED JAEDONG AND ALL THE PAST BONJWAS NOW AND FOREVER." Particularly when Jaedong was also a powerhouse-into-THE-DOMINANT-PLAYER last year, and had an almost-as-strong Proleague performance this year. ("But Jaedong never won Proleague!" Yeah, but neither did Flash. KT did. Notice that Flash was not required to win several games against the best TvZ and PvZ in the world for his team to win. He was forced to win a single game against the worst A-Team ZvT in the world.) Nice cherry picking. I especially like how you put great emphasis on imbalanced maps and then complety ignore that in OSL Flash actually lost on Polaris Rhapsody and Jaedong lost on Dreamliner. Maybe the imbalance didn't play such huge role after all? And yes, KT won the proleague, not just Flash. But only idiot would try to deny that it was mainly thanks to Flash. I really wonder when the "lol KTFlash is total failure without their child labor" opinion changed to "KT won the PL, Flash did basically nothing remarkable"...
Let's deconstruct:
Wtf? Terran is super strong these times? That must be the reason why we got so many terran finalist and semifinalist last couple of seasons in individual leagues, right? Oh wait, only terran who was able to win something for like a year is Flash. Only terran who managed to get into final of any individual league is...wait for it...only Flash again!
This MSL had 3 of the 4 semifinalists as Terran for one thing, but just looking at the very top of leagues filled with mirror matchups as well as skill discrepancies among players is a ridiculously shortsighted analysis. Terran has dominated TvZ this year, and been sort of ahead in TvP, which is good enough considering how horrible Protoss players are doing now (Flash, Jaedong, ....and Free / Stork for protoss?)
What Flash accomplished is even more impressive because he did it in times when terran players in general struggled hard.
I'll assume you're not stupid enough to think Terran players are struggling now, so obviously you mean 2007/8 - 2009 ish. Considering what he won in those years, I'd say JAedong's 1 gold and 3 silvers this year in a time when Zergs are getting raped in TvZ is quite comparable. Ultimately though none of this matters cause its a monthly power rank. Thanks for the trivia though.
If you honestly believe the only thing Flash did in the finals is beating Hyuk, then we have to agree to disagree.
The only proleague game Flash played in August was vs Hyuk. No, I don't care about his winrate this year in proleague, or about how being #1 thanks to him gave Kt time to analyze SKT, or the aura he gives his team, or how he forced SKT to alter their plans just to prepare for him, etc. This is a monthly (seriously, can people understand this?) power rank that assesses how strong a person is playing. The only game he played was vs Hyuk, so for the criteria of this power rank he really didn't do anything significant in the finals.
Jaedong lost on Dreamliner. Maybe the imbalance didn't play such huge role after all?
Or maybe dreamliner isn't as imbalanced as people suggest? It started 1-13 for Terrans but all except 2 of those losses were either Terran fails or all ins that had little to do with the map itself. Since then Terran has caught up a lot on dreamliner. Yes, it favors 2 hatch mutas a ton but if the Terran knows its coming and cuts 2 or 3 scvs for earlier turrets that the couple of seconds that Zerg would save in air distance is negated. Kinda like on El Nino where reavers were so favored that after a while most PvTs boiled down to Protoss doing a reaver opening and Terran doing an anti reaver opening from the start.
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Haha what, the most vicious wins came from literally just spawning in an unwinnable position, not any terran's inherent failure. Flash won because he did a funny cheese and JD got caught being greedy.
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OMG Waxangel is writing PR!! So nice, gonna read it asap <3
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Canada2480 Posts
On September 16 2010 17:52 SuperArc wrote:
and people still say I am the worst poster in this forum? :/
At least I know when to stop.
only Flash fanboys 
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Canada2480 Posts
On September 17 2010 01:36 Monsen wrote:
Hey guys, I just had an idea how you can be even more annoying: take the "Flash is God" argument and while complaining that he is only at #1PR and not given enough praise turn the thread into a flamefest about religion! Don't miss this opportunity!
turning this in a religious flame war would be less annoying then listening to Flash fanboys
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On September 17 2010 05:24 SubtleArt wrote:
This is a monthly (seriously, can people understand this?) power rank that assesses how strong a person is playing.
Uhh, not really. It's a power rank that happens to be released approximately monthly. It's ridiculous that people think that a magic barrier gets drawn at each month and stuff before that is suddenly irrelevant. Less relevant? Absolutely. If you're doing a power rank, recent events matter more, especially those that happened between the last release and the current one - that's just common sense.
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Canada2480 Posts
On September 17 2010 06:16 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Haha what, the most vicious wins came from literally just spawning in an unwinnable position, not any terran's inherent failure. Flash won because he did a funny cheese and JD got caught being greedy.
I didnt recall 12 hatch being especially greedy :p
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On September 17 2010 07:13 swanized wrote:
turning this in a religious flame war would be less annoying then listening to Flash fanboys
Actually the most annoying posts are the one that complain about other posts being annoying. This applies to this very post. Dear casual reader, I'm sorry for annoying you.
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On September 17 2010 05:24 SubtleArt wrote:
Or maybe dreamliner isn't as imbalanced as people suggest? It started 1-13 for Terrans but all except 2 of those losses were either Terran fails or all ins that had little to do with the map itself. Since then Terran has caught up a lot on dreamliner. Yes, it favors 2 hatch mutas a ton but if the Terran knows its coming and cuts 2 or 3 scvs for earlier turrets that the couple of seconds that Zerg would save in air distance is negated. Kinda like on El Nino where reavers were so favored that after a while most PvTs boiled down to Protoss doing a reaver opening and Terran doing an anti reaver opening from the start.
You're right, Dreamliner is now listed as 28.6% for TvZ on TLPD. Of course this includes Flash's win in the OSL. I can completely understand that people adapt their play on a map over time, but that doesn't make it balanced. If you are forced to open with a specific build (be it anti-reaver drop or anti-2 hatch muta) strictly because of the map there's an issue. It makes you predictable and at the highest levels predictable = dead.
We can see this theory borne out in the MSL finals. How many people claimed that Jaedong lost in the MSL on Polaris Rhapsody because he had to play in preparation of late-game mech? It gave Flash a window where all he would need to do was push despite mutalisk harassment and he would win game 5. It gave him the security that Jaedong would boost his economy and not his defense in game 1. In short it gave him the timing he needed.
Why couldn't Jaedong do the same thing in the OSL on Dreamliner? He knew Flash would be forced to either try to end the game before mutalisks came out or put himself behind economically by cutting SCVs to get turrets in time. This seems like information he could easily have used. He didn't, he died. This doesn't show us that the map is balanced but rather that Flash was better prepared for this final.
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On September 17 2010 07:17 swanized wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 06:16 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Haha what, the most vicious wins came from literally just spawning in an unwinnable position, not any terran's inherent failure. Flash won because he did a funny cheese and JD got caught being greedy. I didnt recall 12 hatch being especially greedy :p
With enormously close rushing distances and 12pool into 2 hatch muta being standard, yes, 12 hatch is greedy.
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On September 17 2010 05:17 Malinor wrote:
A 3 / 5 / 5 composition over the cause of 6 events is not statistically significant, not even close. I don't want to be an ass, but you can basically not draw any conclusion about terrans relative strength from these numbers, absolutely none.
Actually I can. And you want an even more shocking number?
Distinct player winner's per race, last 6 seasons (2 years)
1 Terran:
Flash
2 Protoss:
Stork
Bisu
4 Zerg:
Jaedong
EffOrt
Calm
Luxury
You seem to forgot that success is measured by winning. No Terran has been capable of winning for YEARS besides Flash. If you push it back to 11 seasons, or 3.67 years, only 3 unique Terran have won compared to 7 unique Zerg. The highest stage is what matters. Only, and I mean only, if you use this most recent season can you claim Terran have dominated at the highest stage. You have to go back to when Oov and NaDa were winning to see non-Flash Terran winning the majority of tournaments. You remember why he is called the Ultimate Weapon? He transformed himself into the winning method; not his race.
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On September 17 2010 07:45 TaimalaiX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 05:24 SubtleArt wrote:
Or maybe dreamliner isn't as imbalanced as people suggest? It started 1-13 for Terrans but all except 2 of those losses were either Terran fails or all ins that had little to do with the map itself. Since then Terran has caught up a lot on dreamliner. Yes, it favors 2 hatch mutas a ton but if the Terran knows its coming and cuts 2 or 3 scvs for earlier turrets that the couple of seconds that Zerg would save in air distance is negated. Kinda like on El Nino where reavers were so favored that after a while most PvTs boiled down to Protoss doing a reaver opening and Terran doing an anti reaver opening from the start.
You're right, Dreamliner is now listed as 28.6% for TvZ on TLPD. Of course this includes Flash's win in the OSL. I can completely understand that people adapt their play on a map over time, but that doesn't make it balanced. If you are forced to open with a specific build (be it anti-reaver drop or anti-2 hatch muta) strictly because of the map there's an issue. It makes you predictable and at the highest levels predictable = dead. We can see this theory borne out in the MSL finals. How many people claimed that Jaedong lost in the MSL on Polaris Rhapsody because he had to play in preparation of late-game mech? It gave Flash a window where all he would need to do was push despite mutalisk harassment and he would win game 5. It gave him the security that Jaedong would boost his economy and not his defense in game 1. In short it gave him the timing he needed. Why couldn't Jaedong do the same thing in the OSL on Dreamliner? He knew Flash would be forced to either try to end the game before mutalisks came out or put himself behind economically by cutting SCVs to get turrets in time. This seems like information he could easily have used. He didn't, he died. This doesn't show us that the map is balanced but rather that Flash was better prepared for this final.
Because scouting 2 hatch muta as Terran is sinfully easy while distinguishing a mech or bio follow through from a walled in fast expand isn't???
On September 17 2010 07:14 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 05:24 SubtleArt wrote:
This is a monthly (seriously, can people understand this?) power rank that assesses how strong a person is playing.
Uhh, not really. It's a power rank that happens to be released approximately monthly. It's ridiculous that people think that a magic barrier gets drawn at each month and stuff before that is suddenly irrelevant. Less relevant? Absolutely. If you're doing a power rank, recent events matter more, especially those that happened between the last release and the current one - that's just common sense.
No, the rank only measures a certain month's performance. There is a magic barrier, and it usually starts the first day of the month, unless theres some exception (like an SL final going on the very first day of the new month. Otherwise it's based solely on how a player preforms that given month.
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Osaka27114 Posts
Can I ask what part of:
"Overall, Flash is the obvious pick for best player in the world."
is not enough praise? You people who are complaining are beyond understanding.
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On September 17 2010 09:06 Manifesto7 wrote:
Can I ask what part of:
"Overall, Flash is the obvious pick for best player in the world."
is not enough praise? You people who are complaining are beyond understanding.
I'll quote one of my favourite writers.
Around 1942 Witold Gomrowicz wrote:
"Overall". It's the word that dissembles every sentence,
doesn't matter how strong without this one word.
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On September 17 2010 09:06 Manifesto7 wrote:
Can I ask what part of:
"Overall, Flash is the obvious pick for best player in the world."
is not enough praise? You people who are complaining are beyond understanding.
Sorry but stating the obvious (in an unenthusiastic way to boot) is not praising in my book. But I understand different people have different criteria.
I actually don't have big problems with things written in the PR, more with things which are missing. Just for comparison - what was written about JD winning OSL (only OSL!) and getting golden mouse
Why then is Lee Jaedong at PR #1 today? Because, sports fans, the kid came back the very next day, yes that's right, he came back just 24 hours later to completely obliterate the same Terran who had schooled him so thoroughly less than a week before. From a humbling 3 -1 against Calm, the OZ Zerg recovered well to reverse the scores and go 3 - 1 against Fantasy in the OSL Semi Final, thereby securing a back to back OSL Finals spot, an opportunity he would turn into a back to back OSL win, the first since Lim Yo Hwan himself, and as we all know thanks to the gushing of a million fanboys, the third Golden Mouse in Starcraft history. Indeed, his OSL feats quickly outshine everything else this month, and it must be said, far outweigh his disappointing WCG loss to Stork. As billions of babbling fans bicker and beg for the B word to be used, I'm just here to tactfully avoid that discussion but say that JD, having borne the brunt of many beatings, is now by and large back and ready to bashfully agree that the baton is still very much in his possession.
Quite cool, right? Now for Flash winnig BOTH
Flash became the first player to win the OSL and MSL in the same season, and tied Jaedong at five 1st place finishes, just behind Nada who has six. If the B-word hadn’t gone out of fashion a few months ago, people would certainly be clamoring to award Flash the title. Instead, the most recent Korean community trend is to give Flash a more appropriate surname and call him “God Young-ho”.
Let's focus especially on what was written about the extraordinary feat which acquiring the golden mouse certainly is:
Yeah, that much.
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On September 17 2010 09:35 L0thar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 09:06 Manifesto7 wrote:
Can I ask what part of:
"Overall, Flash is the obvious pick for best player in the world."
is not enough praise? You people who are complaining are beyond understanding. Sorry but stating the obvious (in an unenthusiastic way to boot) is not praising in my book. But I understand different people have different criteria. I actually don't have big problems with things written in the PR, more with things which are missing. Just for comparison - what was written about JD winning OSL (only OSL!) and getting golden mouse Show nested quote +Why then is Lee Jaedong at PR #1 today? Because, sports fans, the kid came back the very next day, yes that's right, he came back just 24 hours later to completely obliterate the same Terran who had schooled him so thoroughly less than a week before. From a humbling 3 -1 against Calm, the OZ Zerg recovered well to reverse the scores and go 3 - 1 against Fantasy in the OSL Semi Final, thereby securing a back to back OSL Finals spot, an opportunity he would turn into a back to back OSL win, the first since Lim Yo Hwan himself, and as we all know thanks to the gushing of a million fanboys, the third Golden Mouse in Starcraft history. Indeed, his OSL feats quickly outshine everything else this month, and it must be said, far outweigh his disappointing WCG loss to Stork. As billions of babbling fans bicker and beg for the B word to be used, I'm just here to tactfully avoid that discussion but say that JD, having borne the brunt of many beatings, is now by and large back and ready to bashfully agree that the baton is still very much in his possession. Quite cool, right? Now for Flash winnig BOTH Show nested quote +Flash became the first player to win the OSL and MSL in the same season, and tied Jaedong at five 1st place finishes, just behind Nada who has six. If the B-word hadn’t gone out of fashion a few months ago, people would certainly be clamoring to award Flash the title. Instead, the most recent Korean community trend is to give Flash a more appropriate surname and call him “God Young-ho”. Let's focus especially on what was written about the extraordinary feat which acquiring the golden mouse certainly is: Yeah, that much.
It's a new writer with a different tone and writing style. Deal with it.
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On September 17 2010 10:09 SubtleArt wrote:
It's a new writer with a different tone and writing style. Deal with it.
In case you haven't noticed, L0thar was answering in a polite and descriptive way to Manifesto7's explicit question. If you don't want to hear the answer, please ask Manifesto7 to not ask the question.
Going back to Manifesto7's question, the things that feel strange in this Power Rank are the incomplete acknowledgment of the records and accomplishments that Flash set this month, specifically lacking 3 back to back dual finals, Golden Mouse and defeating 2-0 in Bo5 his greatest rival. It's feels as if Waxangel needs to sharpen his writing skills, with emphasis on raw fact stating.
Then moving to the rest of the Power Rank, we learn that Jaedong is certainly capable of defeating Flash in a series (which, WCG?!), that Jaedong is the greatest #2 ever (while Flash doesn't qualify for greatest #1) and, reading all the way down, that Flash is the "turtle-king" (WTF?).
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EPT
Flash
Jaedong
Movie
