Power Rank 09/14/2010

On September 14 2010 15:12 Waxangel wrote:
but what's the difference between saying "he set a record" and saying "he set a record, and that's incredible" :D?

On September 14 2010 15:12 Waxangel wrote:
but what's the difference between saying "he set a record" and saying "he set a record, and that's incredible" :D?

On September 14 2010 15:19 Waxangel wrote:


Some silly Flash fanboy/girl will write a TLFE that's unbearably gushing, don't worry.

Wax is the new PR writer now? Not enough Pokemon reference.

Poor Bisu...My heart is broken.

On September 14 2010 15:28 dukethegold wrote:
Wax is the new PR writer now? Not enough Pokemon reference.

Poor Bisu...My heart is broken.

On September 14 2010 15:59 champignones wrote:
i agree flash deserve more, but what can we do , there are more jae fans out there right?. i wonder what would happen with the PR if jae would have won both leagues instead of flash , wait wait i can imagine it:

"GOD is here risen from sky he is unbeatable, the Dong is inmortal can transform iron in cookies, wields the Mjolnir better than thor and convert water in wine. Walk on water too? is JD gg no re , everyone else just meh"

pretty much it

On September 14 2010 17:37 Holgerius wrote:
Wow, there's quite a lot of criticism from the Flash camp.

On September 14 2010 15:59 champignones wrote:
"GOD is here risen from sky he is unbeatable, the Dong is inmortal can transform iron in cookies, wields the Mjolnir better than thor and convert water in wine. Walk on water too? is JD gg no re , everyone else just meh"

On September 14 2010 17:09 mrkent wrote:
"He certainly showed he’s capable of beating Flash in a series"

What? JD 4 pooling 2x in a row clearly shows his lack of confidence in beating flash in a best of 5.

On September 14 2010 18:11 blade55555 wrote:


lol will he 14 cc's 99% of the time but when jaedong changes and decides to punish flash for it he decides not to do it once. If jaedong had done this in the MSL finals on the last map 4 pool he would have won.

But guess people well say anything... While I don't like that Jaedong 4 pooled in the third game that can't be changed.

On September 14 2010 09:59 Kazius wrote:
Winning the MSL using risky fast expansion builds and sharp timing attacks, and then winning the OSL without doing so once.

On September 14 2010 19:22 sixfour wrote:
WTF no Zero, not even in CBNC? 2-0 vs Action, beating Jaedong, Hiya, Effort, Snow, Light in Stars' great STX Masters run where he all-killed Oz. One bad loss in ZvZ (can't really call 2-1 vs Fantasy and 2-0 vs free bad) and that warrants no mention?

On September 14 2010 19:51 Grend wrote:
World is back to normal. Finally!

On September 14 2010 19:03 structuralinertia wrote:
lol don't know where this expectation for 'more praise' comes from, if people want that they should make a thread for it. The PR should be concise, objective, explanatory etc., i.e. exactly as Waxangel has done it

On September 14 2010 21:36 nimoraca wrote:
Worst PR in such a long time. Complete lack of enthusiasm. It might be because Dong lost the OSL or whatever.
The point of PR is not to list the players in descending order, otherwise you could just write them down from one to ten and say nothing. The point is to hear the authors opinion on what he thinks about the form of a given player in a given month and to give credit where its due.

It is also very unfair to Flash to say that Flash and Jaedong were "deadlocked in terms of skill", and Flash JUST grabbed all the trophies.

On September 14 2010 19:03 structuralinertia wrote:
The PR is perfect

lol don't know where this expectation for 'more praise' comes from, if people want that they should make a thread for it. The PR should be concise, objective, explanatory etc., i.e. exactly as Waxangel has done it

On September 15 2010 01:16 johanes wrote:
This is how it is supposed to be IMO:
+ Show Spoiler +

On September 15 2010 01:11 Iplaythings wrote:
Saying light is better than flash tvz is weird, when JD beat light, and flash beat light...

On September 15 2010 03:25 LunarDestiny wrote:
I would prefer more Flash praising.

Flash became the first player to win the OSL and MSL in the same season. CHECKED

On September 15 2010 03:38 SuperArc wrote:


No.

On September 14 2010 23:37 ]343[ wrote:
wah, no zero

On September 14 2010 15:37 Assymptotic wrote:

Don't worry, Bisu will return once he remembers to not headbutt tank lines.

On September 14 2010 19:22 sixfour wrote:
WTF no Zero, not even in CBNC? 2-0 vs Action, beating Jaedong, Hiya, Effort, Snow, Light in Stars' great STX Masters run where he all-killed Oz. One bad loss in ZvZ (can't really call 2-1 vs Fantasy and 2-0 vs free bad) and that warrants no mention?

On September 15 2010 10:56 Garaman wrote:
i thought boxer was the first player to win both msl and osl?

On September 15 2010 10:56 Garaman wrote:
i thought boxer was the first player to win both msl and osl?

On September 14 2010 16:35 Waxangel wrote:
I have to save something for the OSL write-up you know :o

On September 15 2010 14:15 loupouk wrote:
Hum flash fan boys start to get annoying, even when flash is number one, it's not enough for them.

I'm more impressed by jaedong than flash this month because he had to fight on antizerg map and still managed to go to final in both league. Flash performance is not amazing at all , even forgg can win a final against jaedong on antizergmap. If jaedong were playing terran he would have a 90% winrate.

Yes flash fan boys, a lot of your posts are as much annoying as this bad troll.

On September 15 2010 14:18 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Haha you are insane. Flash's performance isn't impressive, rofl.

On June 05 2010 04:10 Waxangel wrote:
Hey guess how I know Flash Bonjwa Theory is dead.

Korean fans stopped talking about it entirely after he lost to effort.

No doubt people will try to frankenstein it back together if Flash makes dual league finals again tho

On September 15 2010 23:47 L0thar wrote:
This PR really feels like Waxangel is trying to belittle most of what Flash has done.

Sorry Wax, but instead of writing how Flash won the most titles in one season ever, you wrote that he just did something JD already did long time ago ("tied Jaedong at five 1st place finishes"). Instead of focusing on how Flash strategicaly read JD in both finals and destroyed his greatest rival on two biggest stages, you just wrote that they played on similar level and Flash happened to get all the trophies. Instead of mentioning how Flash lead his team to PL gold (which he did), you wrote how his contribution was relatively small.

This may seem like pointless fanboy nitpicking, but this PR isn't about who's first, that was obvious even to hardest Flash hater. It was about the write up, about the words used. And while what you wrote about Flash is completely true, it's written in a very unenthusiastic way. Normaly I would address this fealings to my own pro-Flash bias and shut up, but this comment


makes me wonder if I'm the only one biased here. You seemed quite enthusiastic back then, more than in the whole Flash section in this PR.

I know that people who don't particulary like Flash aren't having the best times, with all the praising in other threads, but I don't think PR should try to lower the enthusiasm.

If I may ask one question Wax, what is your opinion on Flash as a player? I know you considered him dull in long past, but whan now?

On September 16 2010 03:37 KTF_CloaK wrote:
I seriously dont agree with this PR. Obviously you dont give flash enough credit (ye im a flash fan deal with it) and saying that light is better in TvZ than flash is just ridiculous (flash beat jaedong, light didnt) and wth is he doing there. A sniper in the top 5? come on. And leta is an obvius mistake, i mean he didnt do very well in wcg, not a good performance in msl, osl was ncie though getting in the round of 8 but leta has no wins racking up for him! his record is really mediocre this month, IMO you should have placed action or violet in there instead of dropship-fail-Leta. I expected more to say the least. Pretty short texts for the players in the PR and they are pretty bad too. But yeah thanks i guess for the pr and sorry if i bashed too much i really agree with the rest of the pr though :D

On September 16 2010 06:10 champignones wrote:
i tell you this PR and organizers are all fan biased, if its jaedong, then OMG what a god , if its flash then "just good" , well let me tell you jaedong havent broke the records flash has, even every single record set by jae flash has perfected it and done including BETTER (cough cough 3000 kespa) yeah thats right, and accomplished some things jae will never do (and yes flash is a Bonjwa theres just too much ignoring). this is the worst PR of all time, simply put it, the writter is JD favored or antiflash cause i know if jae would have won these two leagues , you will see all the c=)(// sucking reflected in PR. all my respects i had to TL is gone.

On September 15 2010 23:47 L0thar wrote:
This PR really feels like Waxangel is trying to belittle most of what Flash has done.

Sorry Wax, but instead of writing how Flash won the most titles in one season ever, you wrote that he just did something JD already did long time ago ("tied Jaedong at five 1st place finishes"). Instead of focusing on how Flash strategicaly read JD in both finals and destroyed his greatest rival on two biggest stages, you just wrote that they played on similar level and Flash happened to get all the trophies. Instead of mentioning how Flash lead his team to PL gold (which he did), you wrote how his contribution was relatively small.

This may seem like pointless fanboy nitpicking, but this PR isn't about who's first, that was obvious even to hardest Flash hater. It was about the write up, about the words used. And while what you wrote about Flash is completely true, it's written in a very unenthusiastic way. Normaly I would address this fealings to my own pro-Flash bias and shut up, but this comment


makes me wonder if I'm the only one biased here. You seemed quite enthusiastic back then, more than in the whole Flash section in this PR.

I know that people who don't particulary like Flash aren't having the best times, with all the praising in other threads, but I don't think PR should try to lower the enthusiasm.

If I may ask one question Wax, what is your opinion on Flash as a player? I know you considered him dull in long past, but whan now?

On September 16 2010 07:37 SubtleArt wrote:

He beat Hyuk. HYUK. I can't think of a single run of the mill Terran that couldn't beat Hyuk the way he's playing right now.

On September 16 2010 03:45 Fenrax wrote:
Seriously, I laugh about the stupidity or close-mindedness of the people who refuse to call Flash the Bonjwa of our time. Dual Finals twice in a row, 3 of them won, PL won, WL won, WCG Korea qualified, highest ELO of all times by miles, revolutionizing every matchup, he has done everything. Saying he is no Bonjwa because of one loss to Effort is flat out stupid, because if a player had to win EVERY league 2 times in as row, then NO ONE would ever have been Bonjwa, not Savior, not NaDa, not Boxer, not Iloveoov.

On September 16 2010 08:45 hypercube wrote:


So losing ace matches when it could possibly mean your team loses its direct place in the finals is letting your team down, but winning the game that clinches the most important title in its history deserves no credit because it was against an inferior opponent?

On September 16 2010 08:00 TaimalaiX wrote:
It's not about him beating Hyuk, it's about the fact that he was so dominant over the course of the PL that KT got to analyze SKT and take them down handily. Yes he had a mini-slump in ace matches but in the end all that did was keep him from extending his PL wins record even farther.

How is it possible that people go from "KTFlash" to "he beat Hyuk, he didn't do anything" without realizing how stupid the jump is? This isn't specifically at SubtleArt, rather at posters in general who choose to focus on Flash beating a ZvT newbie rather than him being in that situation because KT got matchups they wanted all over the place as a result of having weeks to prepare for the match. It's ridiculous.

On September 16 2010 08:47 Severedevil wrote:

Losing many consecutive ace matches erodes the claim that you're THE GOD-MODE LORD OF ALL than winning one high-stakes match against a shitty player supports it, yes.

My favorite players are Stork/Jaedong/Leta, and I wouldn't suck their dicks for losing lots of ace matches and then beating Hyuk once.

On September 16 2010 09:20 Waxangel wrote:
you're all doing fine, continue =o

On September 16 2010 08:47 Severedevil wrote:
Flash's domination period so far is one year long, if we're generous.

Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status.
A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.

On September 16 2010 09:01 SubtleArt wrote:
It's a monthly power rank, treat it as such. This has nothing to do with how he preformed over the season.

On September 16 2010 11:02 Severedevil wrote:
I already call Flash a bonjwa. You have to argue that Jaedong isn't.

Incidentally, he's been in a final for the past five seasons, if you consider that number important.

On September 16 2010 11:19 bluetrolls wrote:


1. Flash. OSL champion, dominated the runner-up in a clear 3-1 victory.
2. Flash. MSL champion, won a close victory against the runner-up.
3. Jaedong. Won WCG Korea, the Bo3 consolation match of no significance.

You like this more?

On September 16 2010 11:23 SubtleArt wrote:


? Obviously I agree with the number 1, just saying that he didnt contribute much to the proleague finals. Don't see how what you're saying is relevant.

Final, thereby securing a back to back OSL Finals spot, an opportunity he would turn into a back to back OSL win, the first since Lim Yo Hwan himself, and as we all know thanks to the gushing of a million fanboys, the third Golden Mouse in Starcraft history.

Ladies and gentlemen, if you want to name ANYONE "Bonjwa" in these chaotic times, this is the ticket. Jaedong has no weak matchups. Jaedong is 80% in his mirror matchup. Jaedong is the beginning and end of every criteria Zerg is currently measured by. The fact that he just won an OSL is small potatoes in comparison to actually watching his games. What a fucking MONSTER.

On September 16 2010 12:32 l0st_romantic wrote:
For anyone who is unhappy with this PR--please vote in this thread:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153302

On September 16 2010 12:33 space_yes wrote:


That was closed fast. At least I got to vote Flash bonjwa lol

On September 16 2010 08:47 Severedevil wrote:

Flash's domination period so far is one year long, if we're generous. And while he went 3-1 against Jaedong in starleague finals, he got some seriously Terran-fellating maps for two of those four finals, one of which he lost and the other of which he won 3-2, winning only on the Terran-fellating maps. You'll forgive me if I don't interpret this as "ZOMG FLASH IS GOD HE HAS DEFEATED JAEDONG AND ALL THE PAST BONJWAS NOW AND FOREVER." Particularly when Jaedong was also a powerhouse-into-THE-DOMINANT-PLAYER last year, and had an almost-as-strong Proleague performance this year. ("But Jaedong never won Proleague!" Yeah, but neither did Flash. KT did. Notice that Flash was not required to win several games against the best TvZ and PvZ in the world for his team to win. He was forced to win a single game against the worst A-Team ZvT in the world.)

Flash is Bonjwa-level dominant. So is Jaedong. Flash did better this year than Jaedong, after doing worse in previous years than Jaedong. The 2010-2011 dominance wars should be very exciting - particularly if the non-Bonjwa S-Class of Effort/Stork/Bisu/Fantasy (and maybe Leta or Zero?) is up to the challenge.

On September 16 2010 21:06 nimoraca wrote:
Its nice to have a place, your own imaginary little world, where Jaedong did not get destroyed and crashed by Flash, where he played on the same level and just couldn't take the titles (three times in a row), where a losing score of 3vs9 in important finals means nothing, where Flash didn't made it to a six consecutive finals, where he didn't break both the elo and kespa point record, where...

That world exists, its called the PR.

On September 16 2010 23:32 darkmetal505 wrote:



I didn't see Jaedong get crushed by Flash. He didn't play on the same level, but he definitely isn't as far behind as people are suggesting. 3-9 doesn't mean all that much either. The closest Jaedong could've gotten and Flash still winning all the finals would've ben 6-9, a 3 game difference. You're claiming a 3 game difference is the key to showing that Jaedong got "destroyed and crashed"? A good number of the games, Jaedong didn't get the opportunity to show his highest level play and neither did Flash.

Advancing to 6 consecutive finals is indeed an awesome feat, I'll admit.

On September 17 2010 00:43 Elroi wrote:
God... aren't you Flash fans being a bit pathetic now? No one says he is not a bonjwa. For me it's a little hard to be super exited about his run 1) because he beat my favorit player 2) he is another terran bonjwa in a time when terran is super strong. But stop complaining about guys who don't go crazy over his victories, it's idiotic. Everyone knows he is the best in the world right now. Be happy.

On September 16 2010 07:37 SubtleArt wrote:
He beat Hyuk. HYUK. I can't think of a single run of the mill Terran that couldn't beat Hyuk the way he's playing right now.

On September 16 2010 08:47 Severedevil wrote:
Flash's domination period so far is one year long, if we're generous. And while he went 3-1 against Jaedong in starleague finals, he got some seriously Terran-fellating maps for two of those four finals, one of which he lost and the other of which he won 3-2, winning only on the Terran-fellating maps. You'll forgive me if I don't interpret this as "ZOMG FLASH IS GOD HE HAS DEFEATED JAEDONG AND ALL THE PAST BONJWAS NOW AND FOREVER." Particularly when Jaedong was also a powerhouse-into-THE-DOMINANT-PLAYER last year, and had an almost-as-strong Proleague performance this year. ("But Jaedong never won Proleague!" Yeah, but neither did Flash. KT did. Notice that Flash was not required to win several games against the best TvZ and PvZ in the world for his team to win. He was forced to win a single game against the worst A-Team ZvT in the world.)

On September 17 2010 02:03 L0thar wrote:


Wtf? Terran is super strong these times? That must be the reason why we got so many terran finalist and semifinalist last couple of seasons in individual leagues, right? Oh wait, only terran who was able to win something for like a year is Flash. Only terran who managed to get into final of any individual league is...wait for it...only Flash again!

On September 17 2010 02:03 L0thar wrote:
What Flash accomplished is even more impressive because he did it in times when terran players in general struggled hard.

I didn't see Jaedong get crushed by Flash. He didn't play on the same level, but he definitely isn't as far behind as people are suggesting. 3-9 doesn't mean all that much either. The closest Jaedong could've gotten and Flash still winning all the finals would've ben 6-9, a 3 game difference. You're claiming a 3 game difference is the key to showing that Jaedong got "destroyed and crashed"? A good number of the games, Jaedong didn't get the opportunity to show his highest level play and neither did Flash.

On September 17 2010 03:38 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:


This isn't golf, where Tiger won by 24 strokes and you can say the others didn't play as well. Half the reason Jaedong didn't play well is because he wasn't given an opportunity to. Then he took a totally different tact in the OSL showing he has no confidence to win a long management game against Flash. When the best guy has to change his game because he doesn't think he can win that smells of domination to me.

It's like if Federer decided he couldn't beat Rafa in a groundstroke game anymore, played serve and volley and got smoked. You could say, oh well Federer didn't play his best game, what's he doing serve and volleying? But then once you answer that question of why, the reality becomes clear.

On September 16 2010 23:49 nimoraca wrote:


Who says Jeadong couldn't win any of those finals. I don't. The "closest" he could have gotten would be Jaedong 9, Flash 0 . Instead he went Jaedong 3, Flash 9. There is a big difference.

On September 17 2010 04:50 Crisium wrote:
Past 1 year, or 3 seasons, semifinal appearances by player:

3 Terran:
Flash
Fantasy
Light

5 Zerg:
Jaedong
EffOrt
Calm
Shine
Kwanro

5 Protoss:
Movie
free
Kal
Stork
Pure

Terran is not dominating, FLASH is dominating. We still see some of the dragons, mainly Stork and Best, make Terrans look like ants. We saw free and even Bisu do quite well against Zergs recently. It's really the "Flash" problem then it is a Terran problem. The MSL this season was a bit stacked, but in the 2 before Flash was the only semi-finalist - you can't ignore that.

Wtf? Terran is super strong these times? That must be the reason why we got so many terran finalist and semifinalist last couple of seasons in individual leagues, right? Oh wait, only terran who was able to win something for like a year is Flash. Only terran who managed to get into final of any individual league is...wait for it...only Flash again!

What Flash accomplished is even more impressive because he did it in times when terran players in general struggled hard.

If you honestly believe the only thing Flash did in the finals is beating Hyuk, then we have to agree to disagree.

Jaedong lost on Dreamliner. Maybe the imbalance didn't play such huge role after all?

On September 16 2010 17:52 SuperArc wrote:
and people still say I am the worst poster in this forum? :/

At least I know when to stop.

On September 17 2010 01:36 Monsen wrote:
Hey guys, I just had an idea how you can be even more annoying: take the "Flash is God" argument and while complaining that he is only at #1PR and not given enough praise turn the thread into a flamefest about religion! Don't miss this opportunity!

On September 17 2010 05:24 SubtleArt wrote:
This is a monthly (seriously, can people understand this?) power rank that assesses how strong a person is playing.

On September 17 2010 06:16 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Haha what, the most vicious wins came from literally just spawning in an unwinnable position, not any terran's inherent failure. Flash won because he did a funny cheese and JD got caught being greedy.

On September 17 2010 07:13 swanized wrote:
turning this in a religious flame war would be less annoying then listening to Flash fanboys

On September 17 2010 05:24 SubtleArt wrote:
Or maybe dreamliner isn't as imbalanced as people suggest? It started 1-13 for Terrans but all except 2 of those losses were either Terran fails or all ins that had little to do with the map itself. Since then Terran has caught up a lot on dreamliner. Yes, it favors 2 hatch mutas a ton but if the Terran knows its coming and cuts 2 or 3 scvs for earlier turrets that the couple of seconds that Zerg would save in air distance is negated. Kinda like on El Nino where reavers were so favored that after a while most PvTs boiled down to Protoss doing a reaver opening and Terran doing an anti reaver opening from the start.

On September 17 2010 07:17 swanized wrote:


I didnt recall 12 hatch being especially greedy :p

On September 17 2010 05:17 Malinor wrote:
A 3 / 5 / 5 composition over the cause of 6 events is not statistically significant, not even close. I don't want to be an ass, but you can basically not draw any conclusion about terrans relative strength from these numbers, absolutely none.

On September 17 2010 07:45 TaimalaiX wrote:


You're right, Dreamliner is now listed as 28.6% for TvZ on TLPD. Of course this includes Flash's win in the OSL. I can completely understand that people adapt their play on a map over time, but that doesn't make it balanced. If you are forced to open with a specific build (be it anti-reaver drop or anti-2 hatch muta) strictly because of the map there's an issue. It makes you predictable and at the highest levels predictable = dead.

We can see this theory borne out in the MSL finals. How many people claimed that Jaedong lost in the MSL on Polaris Rhapsody because he had to play in preparation of late-game mech? It gave Flash a window where all he would need to do was push despite mutalisk harassment and he would win game 5. It gave him the security that Jaedong would boost his economy and not his defense in game 1. In short it gave him the timing he needed.

Why couldn't Jaedong do the same thing in the OSL on Dreamliner? He knew Flash would be forced to either try to end the game before mutalisks came out or put himself behind economically by cutting SCVs to get turrets in time. This seems like information he could easily have used. He didn't, he died. This doesn't show us that the map is balanced but rather that Flash was better prepared for this final.

On September 17 2010 07:14 darktreb wrote:


Uhh, not really. It's a power rank that happens to be released approximately monthly. It's ridiculous that people think that a magic barrier gets drawn at each month and stuff before that is suddenly irrelevant. Less relevant? Absolutely. If you're doing a power rank, recent events matter more, especially those that happened between the last release and the current one - that's just common sense.

On September 17 2010 09:06 Manifesto7 wrote:
Can I ask what part of:

"Overall, Flash is the obvious pick for best player in the world."

is not enough praise? You people who are complaining are beyond understanding.

Around 1942 Witold Gomrowicz wrote:

"Overall". It's the word that dissembles every sentence,
doesn't matter how strong without this one word.

On September 17 2010 09:06 Manifesto7 wrote:
Can I ask what part of:

"Overall, Flash is the obvious pick for best player in the world."

is not enough praise? You people who are complaining are beyond understanding.

Why then is Lee Jaedong at PR #1 today? Because, sports fans, the kid came back the very next day, yes that's right, he came back just 24 hours later to completely obliterate the same Terran who had schooled him so thoroughly less than a week before. From a humbling 3 -1 against Calm, the OZ Zerg recovered well to reverse the scores and go 3 - 1 against Fantasy in the OSL Semi Final, thereby securing a back to back OSL Finals spot, an opportunity he would turn into a back to back OSL win, the first since Lim Yo Hwan himself, and as we all know thanks to the gushing of a million fanboys, the third Golden Mouse in Starcraft history. Indeed, his OSL feats quickly outshine everything else this month, and it must be said, far outweigh his disappointing WCG loss to Stork. As billions of babbling fans bicker and beg for the B word to be used, I'm just here to tactfully avoid that discussion but say that JD, having borne the brunt of many beatings, is now by and large back and ready to bashfully agree that the baton is still very much in his possession.

Flash became the first player to win the OSL and MSL in the same season, and tied Jaedong at five 1st place finishes, just behind Nada who has six. If the B-word hadn’t gone out of fashion a few months ago, people would certainly be clamoring to award Flash the title. Instead, the most recent Korean community trend is to give Flash a more appropriate surname and call him “God Young-ho”.

On September 17 2010 09:35 L0thar wrote:


Sorry but stating the obvious (in an unenthusiastic way to boot) is not praising in my book. But I understand different people have different criteria.

I actually don't have big problems with things written in the PR, more with things which are missing. Just for comparison - what was written about JD winning OSL (only OSL!) and getting golden mouse



Quite cool, right? Now for Flash winnig BOTH



Let's focus especially on what was written about the extraordinary feat which acquiring the golden mouse certainly is:



Yeah, that much.

On September 17 2010 10:09 SubtleArt wrote:
It's a new writer with a different tone and writing style. Deal with it.

On September 17 2010 10:20 bluetrolls wrote:


In case you haven't noticed, L0thar was answering in a polite and descriptive way to Manifesto7's explicit question. If you don't want to hear the answer, please ask Manifesto7 to not ask the question.

Going back to Manifesto7's question, the things that feel strange in this Power Rank are the incomplete acknowledgment of the records and accomplishments that Flash set this month, specifically lacking 3 back to back dual finals, Golden Mouse and defeating 2-0 in Bo5 his greatest rival. It's feels as if Waxangel needs to sharpen his writing skills, with emphasis on raw fact stating.

Then moving to the rest of the Power Rank, we learn that Jaedong is certainly capable of defeating Flash in a series (which, WCG?!), that Jaedong is the greatest #2 ever (while Flash doesn't qualify for greatest #1) and, reading all the way down, that Flash is the "turtle-king" (WTF?).

On September 17 2010 10:09 SubtleArt wrote:


It's a new writer with a different tone and writing style. Deal with it.

On September 17 2010 08:13 Crisium wrote:
Distinct player winner's per race, last 6 seasons (2 years)

1 Terran:
Flash

2 Protoss:
Stork
Bisu

4 Zerg:
Jaedong
EffOrt
Calm
Luxury

You seem to forgot that success is measured by winning. No Terran has been capable of winning for YEARS besides Flash. If you push it back to 11 seasons, or 3.67 years, only 3 unique Terran have won compared to 7 unique Zerg. The highest stage is what matters. Only, and I mean only, if you use this most recent season can you claim Terran have dominated at the highest stage. You have to go back to when Oov and NaDa were winning to see non-Flash Terran winning the majority of tournaments. You remember why he is called the Ultimate Weapon? He transformed himself into the winning method; not his race.

The only proleague game Flash played in August was vs Hyuk. No, I don't care about his winrate this year in proleague, or about how being #1 thanks to him gave Kt time to analyze SKT, or the aura he gives his team, or how he forced SKT to alter their plans just to prepare for him, etc. This is a monthly (seriously, can people understand this?) power rank that assesses how strong a person is playing. The only game he played was vs Hyuk, so for the criteria of this power rank he really didn't do anything significant in the finals.

On September 17 2010 11:14 L0thar wrote:


If you are continuing the work of someone else, you are bound to be compared to your predecessor. Especially when some people are dissatisfied and then asked why. Deal with it.

Let's continue with your deconstruction (I apologize answering to Manifesto before you, but you know how it goes).

As for how the terrans are doing, I'm going to quote Crisium, who posted some simple yet wonderfull thing - pure data.



Not much else to say.



As I said, we have to agree to disagree and this only supports it. We have completely different view on the impact Flash had on the finals. Or on the impact the finals had on Flash (lot of practice hours which for example JD could use to prepare for individual leagues).

On September 15 2010 23:47 L0thar wrote:
This PR really feels like Waxangel is trying to belittle most of what Flash has done.

Sorry Wax, but instead of writing how Flash won the most titles in one season ever, you wrote that he just did something JD already did long time ago ("tied Jaedong at five 1st place finishes"). Instead of focusing on how Flash strategicaly read JD in both finals and destroyed his greatest rival on two biggest stages, you just wrote that they played on similar level and Flash happened to get all the trophies. Instead of mentioning how Flash lead his team to PL gold (which he did), you wrote how his contribution was relatively small.

This may seem like pointless fanboy nitpicking, but this PR isn't about who's first, that was obvious even to hardest Flash hater. It was about the write up, about the words used. And while what you wrote about Flash is completely true, it's written in a very unenthusiastic way. Normaly I would address this fealings to my own pro-Flash bias and shut up, but this comment


makes me wonder if I'm the only one biased here. You seemed quite enthusiastic back then, more than in the whole Flash section in this PR.

I know that people who don't particulary like Flash aren't having the best times, with all the praising in other threads, but I don't think PR should try to lower the enthusiasm.

If I may ask one question Wax, what is your opinion on Flash as a player? I know you considered him dull in long past, but whan now?

On September 17 2010 04:27 darkmetal505 wrote:


You aren't understanding what I'm saying. People are using the 9-3 as a statistic to show how dominant Flash is over Jaedong, disregarding the quality of the games. Assuming the overall outcome is the same (Flash wins all 3 of the finals), the closest Jaedong could've gotten is 9-6, a 3 game differential from 9-3. Say that this did happen, that each final went 3-2,3-2,3-2. That's only a jump from 25% to 40% win rate for Jaedong. Would you still claim Flash dominant over Jaedong? . If you don't, then you're saying somewhere in this 15% determines whether Flash "destroys" Jaedong or not. Since games are measured in discrete amounts, somewhere in between (9-4, 9-5) determines threshold for dominance. What is the highest Jaedong could've gone for you to say Flash did not dominate Jaedong? On the other hand, if you claim that 9-6 still does show dominance, then you are either extremely biased towards Flash in the first place OR its not the win/loss ratio of individual games you care about but rather that Flash beat Jaedong in 3 seperate Bo5s. You would be implying that winning in 3 Bo5s over the same opponent is indicative of dominance regardless of how close the game differential is. If I beat you 9-6, would you be able to accept me being supremely dominant over you?

AND this is all setting aside the content of the matches, which in my opinion, is the biggest factor. The number of games in which I truly saw Flash outclass Jaedong is very small. For me to say that Flash is really a distinct level above Jaedong, I need to see more evidence of this. In addition, for this to happen, I need to see Flash beating Jaedong when they are both at their absolute best. How else can you claim Flash so much better than Jaedong? This is the reason I don't call Flash bonjwa, because I haven't felt this distinction between him and others. I want to assure you that this is not because I am more of a Jaedong fan. Even the MSL semis between Flash and Fantasy was extremely close; I could see Flash had the edge. Not enough of an edge though for me to call Flash so much better, and I fucking hate Fantasy, I mean I will not miss a chance to bash him if I get one.

For the previous bonjwas, I saw people trying their extreme hardest but still fail. I mean, every Terran KNEW Savior would go 3 hatch muta into defiler, but they couldn't do a single thing. This sort of stuff just doesn't happen anymore. The second you become predictable, you get beat. Effort beating Flash by aggressive play is a prime example. No doubt Flash is a better player, but Broodwar has evolved to a level where even though you maybe better, your opponents are snapping at your heels. The second Flash let his guard down, Effort lept on the chance and beat him. It wasn't a fluke, Effort was just a better player that evening, no matter what strategies he used. Flash's record, although astonishing, doesn't tell me anything about how close he is to his opponents. Because of this I can honestly say, I don't think there can be a bonjwa anymore. There will never be that much of a dichotomy between players. If you do claim Flash bonjwa, it has to be based on his record (which I find meaningless in the discussion anyway), and thus Jaedong has the right to be also. The way I see it is that a bonjwa will many titles because he is that much better than everyone, but winning lots of titles doesn't qualify one as a bonjwa, although it is often indicative. It's the causation vs association argument.

Thus, give Flash a awesome new nickname. I'm fine with "God" Young-Ho, but not a name that has another connotation which is outdated. This is exactly what the PR does and which is why I don't see the unrest about it. Something about Flash's achievements belongs in a well written article, not here.

tl:dr

9-3 doesn't tell me jack shit about difference in skill. I still don't see Flash is that far a level above JD.

On September 17 2010 11:34 SubtleArt wrote:
Sorry, can't help but ask: what impact did he have to u?

The only proleague game Flash played in August was vs Hyuk. No, I don't care about his winrate this year in proleague, or about how being #1 thanks to him gave Kt time to analyze SKT, or the aura he gives his team, or how he forced SKT to alter their plans just to prepare for him, etc. This is a monthly (seriously, can people understand this?) power rank that assesses how strong a person is playing. The only game he played was vs Hyuk, so for the criteria of this power rank he really didn't do anything significant in the finals.

On September 17 2010 12:04 Emperor_Earth wrote:
@ L0thar
But somebody's wrong on the internet!

As a fellow Flash fan... what can we say? Flash's domination in a time where fellow Terrans are doing their best YellOw imitation just makes it all even more incredible.

Though to be fair, Jaedong probably would not have 4pooled twice in a row had he not had to play on two severely T favored maps. Nor would he have played in such a risky and exploitable manner in Set 1,2,5 in MSL Grand Finals. Even with such a broken ZvT map in OSL finals for Jaedong, this does not right that wrong.

On September 17 2010 23:13 L0thar wrote:
And btw. I loved the 4-pools. If something they showed that JD is still ruthless as he should be and silenced the numerous people who though that early pools are universal counter to Flash play.

On September 18 2010 06:47 Monsen wrote:
People who can't see how ridiculously close Flash and Jaedong are skillwise are people who have not understood/seen the games. Games have come down to seconds, single units deciding the outcomes etc.
Flash is ahead of JD especially in the mindgame department, but claiming Flash is as much ahead of Jaedong as JD is ahead of the rest is just plain ignorant. Flash is stronger but it's still a battle of gods.
Personally I like the hyped up writing style more too, but to each his own, and complaining like 5 year olds is just embarassing? Does little Billy need more attention from TL-Mommy?

On September 18 2010 18:47 Manifesto7 wrote:
I'm sorry, but I cannot comprehend your complaints. To say that he is belittling Flash when he says Flash is not called a bonjwa but a god, and then says he is the best player in the world...

I am at a total loss.

On September 18 2010 18:47 Manifesto7 wrote:
I'm sorry, but I cannot comprehend your complaints. To say that he is belittling Flash when he says Flash is not called a bonjwa but a god, and then says he is the best player in the world...

I am at a total loss.

On September 18 2010 07:13 KTF_CloaK wrote:



like 4pooling twice, yes? And Flash and jaedong aren't 'ridiculously close' the dong went 3-9, i wouldnt call that ridiculously close... and ofcourse you like hyped up previews little billy, ofcourse you do! Now be a good buy and brush your teeth

On September 18 2010 18:57 Mooncat wrote:


He says it so casually, as if it was nothing special. L0thar's comparison is spot on imho. Don't tell me you can't see the difference.

+ Show Spoiler +

On September 18 2010 22:07 SubtleArt wrote:
It's a new writer with a more neutral tone. Rather than heap praise in decorated language he says it factually and with little emotion....it's just his style.

On September 14 2010 15:04 Waxangel wrote:
For the first 23 minutes of Leta and Flash’s first OSL game, we were in some bizarre alternate reality where Leta was abusing Flash like Flash abuses Hiya. For 23 minutes, Leta constantly attacked Flash at a frenetic pace, with his attacks suffering no dullness despite their incredible speed. Even the turtle-king was bewildered, and soon gave up at a 6 to 3 base advantage.
.

However, Leta then made a possibly career defining error, one so costly that it defeated his spirit and allowed Flash to slowly but surely grind out a win.

On September 18 2010 23:42 Crisium wrote:


Right. But many people here are saying they prefer a more excited and hyped style that the PR has had in the past. There are plenty of complaints here. But there's also constructive criticism. That post comparing when Jaedong won the Golden Mouse to Flash this month is called constructive criticism. Waxangle doesn't have to reinvent himself, but he would be wise to listen and consider new ideas for the next PR.

On September 19 2010 01:16 SubtleArt wrote:


Then "please write with more enthusiasm" is a much more valid complaint than "Waxangel stop trying to belittle Flash's accomplishments"

On September 19 2010 02:51 InRaged wrote:

No it's not more valid, cause it's only Flash's write-up that lacks a good deal of enthusiasm. Others get so much more enthusiastic writing style in comparison to their accomplishment last months (none). Leta's write-up quoted above is a good example.

It was another solid month for Jaedong, where his play was consistently in the great to awesome range. It was marked with a variety of tough TvZ tests, where Jaedong faced capable opponents in Light and Flash. Jaedong played well in all of these series, with some spectacular play in drawn out games against Light and Flash. Unfortunately, he was unable to keep Flash out of his head and complicated mind-games caused him to lose some one-sided but intriguing matches.

In addition, Fantasy had the boost of playing well in the Proleague post-season. He won his match at Kwang-an-ri for the second year running, although this time it could not help his team win a championship. Even so, winning at such an important event counts for a lot.

Combined with some solid wins over a variety of decent players such Calm, Shuttle, and Kal, Fantasy showed that he’s the best of the rest.

Free was on a OSL joyride, going undefeated on his royal road tour before Flash gave him a heavy dose of reality.

Besides his win with a slightly lucky (but still well executed) proxy gate rush, Free suffered a terrible thrashing at Flash’s hands. There was a clear gulf in class on display, as Free failed to put up any meaningful resistance. Even besides the 1-3 score, his skill level never suggested the threat of an upset like the above three players.

With solid statistical production but no realistic capacity to challenge for a championship, Free provides a solid buffer between the real contenders above him and the murky depths of inconsistency below.

Sea’s two surprise wins against Jaedong and dual top eight finish secures him a respectable #7.

On September 17 2010 08:13 Crisium wrote:


Actually I can. And you want an even more shocking number?

Distinct player winner's per race, last 6 seasons (2 years)

1 Terran:
Flash

2 Protoss:
Stork
Bisu

4 Zerg:
Jaedong
EffOrt
Calm
Luxury

You seem to forgot that success is measured by winning. No Terran has been capable of winning for YEARS besides Flash. If you push it back to 11 seasons, or 3.67 years, only 3 unique Terran have won compared to 7 unique Zerg. The highest stage is what matters. Only, and I mean only, if you use this most recent season can you claim Terran have dominated at the highest stage. You have to go back to when Oov and NaDa were winning to see non-Flash Terran winning the majority of tournaments. You remember why he is called the Ultimate Weapon? He transformed himself into the winning method; not his race.