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On July 23 2010 00:07 L0thar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 17:39 Fenrax wrote:On July 22 2010 09:40 L0thar wrote:On July 22 2010 08:28 pvzvt wrote:On July 22 2010 07:46 Fenrax wrote:
JD has just played way better than Flash in the last 3 months (in every single one of them).
If you would choose the most JD biased starting point to count WL stats (the day after their final) JD is 15-3 while Flash is 8-8. But this would be unfair since the series DID happen and should be taken into consideration for comparing these two. The most Flash biased starting point you could possibly choose is exactly the day after Flashs loss to Effort and before his 3-0 over JD. But even then Flash is only 11-8, while JD is 15-6.
Another argument for Flash was his dominance during the last months. So lets check this for the last three month: If you go back to the beginning of May Flash is 26-14 while Jaedong is 28-7 - more wins and half the amount of losses for JD - an insane 80% winrate over 3 month vs. a very good 65%.
So it doesn't matter if you say it is a monthly power rank or if you say the power rank should take long term play into consideration. Also the number of games in combination with the gap in W/L percentages is way to high to argue with buildorders or gameplay against it.
So at the moment JD is #1 and Flash is somewhere between #2 and #4, depending on whether you choose long term strength or recent events for the ranking. the finest way to show the truth i will really but really be disappointed if the following pr wont give the man #1 give the guy what he deserves already Since when did Power Rank turn into Win:Loss Rank? You know what, screw Plexa, FakeSteve, JWD and everybody else who has ever written a PR. These noobs know nothing about Starcraft! Let's instead make a program which will select top 10 players based on TLPD at the start of each month . Actually your sarcasm disqualifies yourself and it is an annoyance, but I'll still answer because it addresses the important point of WL rate vs. better game play. I am far away from saying the PR should only be determined by a WL rate, especially not by a monthly WL rate. This leads to strange deviations like Light making #2 on PR for one month out of nowhere only to vanish back in the void again just as quick. It should always respect the play a player has shown (for example Bisu this month was just insanely good and thus should be rewarded for it in PR), the matchups and opponents he has gotten (for example, Light had exclusively played T and Z when when he became #2) and not overvalue a buildorder loss against a lesser opponent. However, if a player consistently has won WAY MORE (80% vs. 65%) than another player for three month, every month, at any point, and over 40 games, then the player was just better at this time. There is just no possibility of arguing away such a big gap with matchups, gameplay, buildorder wins/losses etc. The big number of games played over such a long time will certainly have balanced out BO advantages, fluke wins and opponnents strength. You are still not looking at the whole picture. A litte example: Player A in one week goes 2:0 in PL, 3:2 in OSL and 3:2 in MSL. His record is 8:4..."measly" 66%. Player B goes 2:0 in PL and 3:0 in MSL, however he was already kicked from OSL, so he didn't play there. His record is 5:0, beastly 100%. Now don't tell me you would say from that Player B is better. Two leagues are kinda more than one. And that's the thing with Flash and Jaedong. Flash got to two consecutive double finals (first time in BW history btw.) and has much busier schedule than Jaedong, who found himself kicked from OSL pretty soon and could concentrate more on his remaining matches. Therefore it was easier for him to keep better winning percentage. And at the end of the day, Flash was still able to completely dismatle Jaedong eventhough he had a harder schedule. That's the kind of information good PR writer needs to take into account as well, not just pure numbers.
So, what's your excuse for his shitty play afterwards?? 0 leagues and he didn't have to play SL pre-lims and he still has a mediocre record. Is this a quarterly power rank now? How can you justify somebody being #1 when they stunk up the place for two whole months?
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On July 22 2010 11:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 11:21 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Yeah, in which he states "I hate Jaedong" quite plainly. I hate Calm and Best but that doesn't mean they aren't good and I can't recognize it. It's disingenuous to think that someone can't put their hangups and personal opinions aside to write an article.
Okay, but as noted in the early days of this PR, the justifications and analysis of the games have a lot of double standards in them.
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JD did not have a better May than Flash. Even if his win percentage was slightly higher, Flash was storming his way through both leagues and in general looked about as unbeatable as is humanly possible. The general prevailing thought was that Flash couldn't lose unless his opponent secured a sufficiently large early advantage. And securing that early advantage was much easier said than done. This is why Snow attracted so much attention for winning a fundamentally meaningless Proleague game. But context needs to be considered: that game was more to Snow's credit than Flash's discredit (Flash was preparing for 2 TvZ finals at the time).
Compare to Jaedong in May: JD was ripping through his opponents left and right, yes, but there were several people who were quite capable of beating him "straight up" in a boX. It's just that other than Flash, he wasn't playing them. Flash was one of them, obviously, but also Light, Baby and probably Effort (who broke Jaedong's record ZvZ streak).
Also, don't shit on Light's high ranking back in February or whenever it was. The man got rewarded for a huge accomplishment: securing Winner's League MVP. Light's TvZ has been almost unbeatable since then, his TvT has been strong, and while his TvP has slipped, he won some pretty critical matches at that time, posting victories over Best and Bisu.
Light is the kind of player who's hard to rank on a month-to-month basis. Partly because he's much better in some MUs than others, but partly because he has serious consistency issues, mainly in his weak MU, TvP. At times he plays really solid TvP.... most of the time he plays terribad TvP. Back during that ranking, he played some solid TvP.
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On July 23 2010 01:18 Mortality wrote:
JD did not have a better May than Flash.
Sadly, it's july and not may.
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New reason to give Flash #1. He was unbeatable two months ago.
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Compare to Jaedong in May: JD was ripping through his opponents left and right, yes, but there were several people who were quite capable of beating him "straight up" in a boX. It's just that other than Flash, he wasn't playing them. Flash was one of them, obviously, but also Light, Baby and probably Effort (who broke Jaedong's record ZvZ streak).
I disagree with that. Everything else about Flash looking insane during May I can agree with. However, you bring up Effort as someone to be able to beat JD in a BoX, when JD rolled Calm, who is the only Zerg ever to beat JD in a Bo5. If we were looking at current Calm we'd all say "well no shit" but the Calm of the time was playing pretty well. The you bring up Baby, who played JD shortly after the MSL and got raped , RIGHT after Baby had owned Flash straight up in a long macro game and was on a 9 game winstreak. In short, Efforts ZvZ is superb, but you are looking back at May, when JD ZvZ was very much JvZ. Baby played well through May and into June, and got rolled by JD. (A littile point of note, Baby was the first vT he played since Flash and made it look easy.)
If you're going to support Flash for number 1, that's fine, but don't discredit JD's skill to prove that point. At the time of the MSL, everyone was expecting an epic series because both JD and Flash were having a dominating period of time, and Flash ended up wanting it more.
Finally, why are you guys still arguing this PR, we're 9 days away from the new one. If anything, try and argue for who should be number 1 in the Aug PR. (without bashing players and Plexa)
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Calm of that time was already starting to slip. Meanwhile Effort in May was setting a ZvZ win streak record. It's true that JvZ was in effect, but so was EvZ. There's a reason why Effort is now only 3 points behind JD in ZvZ ELO and May is a large part of it.
And I really don't think it's a stretch to think that Baby in May could have beaten JD in a bo5 either. Yes, it's true that in June JD stomped Baby, but between March and April, Baby stomped JD three times. You may point out that I'm bringing in results from before May, but I'll point out that you're bringing in results from after May. And May appeared to be Baby's height. So I really don't think it's a stretch to imagine Baby winning a bo5 over JD at that time. Not to say that JD couldn't win, but that you'd be a fool to pick JD over Baby in May without considering what maps are being used.
JD was really strong in May, no doubt. Other than Flash and Effort, there's no one who rivaled him. Yes Baby was strong and had just recently successfully proved he could beat JD in a series (bo3 win in OSL), but JD is, was, and always has been a stronger overall player. And Light's TvZ I also mentioned, but Light is a TvZ sniper who occasionally shows promising TvT and TvP (which he did in the month where he was ranked over JD, meanwhile JD was having a bad month at that time).
JD's dominance in May simply was not the same as Flash's. And it had nothing to do with "wanting it more" (by that logic, I guess Effort wanted it the most?) and everything to do with Flash being just that little extra bit stronger.
(And btw, we are arguing about next month's PR: some people are trying to claim that JD has now been "stronger" than Flash for the past three months, which is simply not true. If you want to argue he's been better in June and July, go for it, but May? Hell no.)
On July 23 2010 02:06 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 01:18 Mortality wrote:
JD did not have a better May than Flash. Sadly, it's july and not may.
No shit Sherlock? How ever did you deduce that?
Maybe you need to go back and read the discussion going on?
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Are we really starting to call Effort's ZvZ EvZ now? There is a reason its called JvZ, he simply has the most dominant matchup of all time, at one point going to like 85%. That's not 60% or 65%, thats 85%. Effort is such a streaky zerg as soon as he goes on a 9game ZvZ streak he turns around and goes on a 6 game losing streak. Would anyone here really take Effort's ZvZ over JD's?
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On July 23 2010 01:18 Mortality wrote:
JD did not have a better May than Flash. Even if his win percentage was slightly higher, Flash was storming his way through both leagues and in general looked about as unbeatable as is humanly possible. The general prevailing thought was that Flash couldn't lose unless his opponent secured a sufficiently large early advantage.
Go back to the battle rapports and hype threads TLers as well as Korean pros thought that JD was the favorit to beat Flash when they met in May, even on Terran favored maps. So Flash wasn't as untouchable as you make it look like (even though he was ofc inhumanly good  ).
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On July 23 2010 07:46 setzer wrote:
Are we really starting to call Effort's ZvZ EvZ now? There is a reason its called JvZ, he simply has the most dominant matchup of all time, at one point going to like 85%. That's not 60% or 65%, thats 85%. Effort is such a streaky zerg as soon as he goes on a 9game ZvZ streak he turns around and goes on a 6 game losing streak. Would anyone here really take Effort's ZvZ over JD's?
Well Effort is 19-1 in his last ZvZ games.
That being said, I would LOVE to see a Jaedong vs. Effort match. Definitely would be epic, great chance of going late game.
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On July 23 2010 02:06 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 01:18 Mortality wrote:
JD did not have a better May than Flash. Sadly, it's july and not may.
On July 23 2010 05:43 WWJDD wrote:
New reason to give Flash #1. He was unbeatable two months ago.
These replies has nothing to do with the discussion.
On July 22 2010 21:15 Loffeman wrote:
Before you argue that Flash has been better the last 3 months look at the games and statistics please. People have been so impressed with Flash's play that they totally missed that JD has been on a roll as well
We're not arguing that Flash has been better the last three months. I think Jaedong has outperformed Flash for about 1.5 months now. What we're arguing about is what Fenrax said 2 pages ago; that JD has been outperforming Flash for 3 months now.
Flash won Gold+Silver and 3-0 vs JD that month. Jaedong got 1 silver. Whatever score jaedong had that month can't overshine Flash's performance that month.
What I'm saying is, Jaedong has not been performing better than Flash for three months.
Some people were upset that Flash got #1 this month because Jaedong had a better last month than Flash. But don't go too far in trying to justify JD #1 next month by claiming that he's been better for 3 months. No one were upset when Flash got #1 PR last month, don't start now ;/
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On July 23 2010 08:44 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 02:06 Shikyo wrote:On July 23 2010 01:18 Mortality wrote:
JD did not have a better May than Flash. Sadly, it's july and not may. Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 05:43 WWJDD wrote:
New reason to give Flash #1. He was unbeatable two months ago. These replies has nothing to do with the discussion. Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 21:15 Loffeman wrote:
Before you argue that Flash has been better the last 3 months look at the games and statistics please. People have been so impressed with Flash's play that they totally missed that JD has been on a roll as well We're not arguing that Flash has been better the last three months. I think Jaedong has outperformed Flash for about 1.5 months now. What we're arguing about is what Fenrax said 2 pages ago; that JD has been outperforming Flash for 3 months now. Flash won Gold+Silver and 3-0 vs JD that month. Jaedong got 1 silver. Whatever score jaedong had that month can't overshine Flash's performance that month. What I'm saying is, Jaedong has not been performing better than Flash for three months. Some people were upset that Flash got #1 this month because Jaedong had a better last month than Flash. But don't go too far in trying to justify JD #1 next month by claiming that he's been better for 3 months. No one were upset when Flash got #1 PR last month, don't start now ;/
Does the discussion then have anything to do with the actual topic itself?
EDIT: yeah I think JD has been better for 3 months just for the sake of discussion
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If you factor May into the PR then you have to rank Flash above Jaedong, a 3-0 of that dominance can't be ignored.
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Are people really factoring in results from over two months ago? I mean c'mon people. It was tough to give Flash #1 this past month (Plexa has balls, Ill give him that), but now we're just robbing Jaedong of a well-deserved #1 spot. Even though the sample games are small but Junes and Julys games show that Jaedong has posted better results.
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On July 23 2010 11:16 jalstar wrote:
If you factor May into the PR then you have to rank Flash above Jaedong, a 3-0 of that dominance can't be ignored.
and an abysmal record of 1-7 ace matches cant be ignored either.
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Too bad, too, those ace matches costed KT a lot.
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That's relevant only if Flash didn't try as hard in those games.
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First I say that games played on the first of this month should count. Then people say something about past 3 months and like wut what does that have to do with anything
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
 Anyppi is really clearly the best player of these last three months. The kid just doesn't lose.
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EPT
