• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:33
CEST 12:33
KST 19:33
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202532Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder8EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced38BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
Classic: "It's a thick wall to break through to become world champ" Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Serral wins EWC 2025 EWC 2025 - Replay Pack
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion [BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder Brood War web app to calculate unit interactions
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL] Non-Korean Championship - Final weekend [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 579 users

Power Rank 07/02/2010 - Page 40

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
Post a Reply
Prev 1 38 39 40 41 42 55 Next
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 03:48:42
July 22 2010 03:45 GMT
#781
On July 22 2010 12:29 Yxes2211 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 12:17 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Well I wouldn't base my rankings on pure record like that. Say it somehow happened this month, what was the stage they played their matches in, did they play each other, who has the precedence from recent months to backup their monstrous run etc etc. I think this outlines a real fundamental problem in the people who lambast rankings so much, they only ever care about one specific thing and don't have a view for any broader scope, and since the ranking doesn't agree with that simple thing, they latch on to personal insults on the writer.

Then, from those insults, we get people who are trying to defend the insults with "Well Plexa DOES have a bias you know! It's totally okay to think he's a complete hack who is unfit to write the rank because he dislikes a player!"

by the ad hominem in this thread, there should literally never be a power ranking because everyone on the site has favorite players and least favorite players.


I'm not defending the insults, I just posted above that I feel bad he has to make these decisions, since he's always going to be given shit for it. By your answer, you're showing that you are bias in your decision. It wasn't an actual decision that you needed to make (so you wouldn't have to go and look who they played, the setting, etc), it was just a simple question to prove a point. Since you didn't address the simple question, and instead beat around the bush about semi-relevant information that doesn't exist (since it was a hypothetical). How could there be a larger scope if the records were made up, for the sake of the argument?

You also suffer from you're own logic, because of these insults your are trying to defend that there is no bias. And there are fanboys who will always gives true fans a bad name, but there are a lot of people who disagree with Plexa without insulting him. You're generalizing your opposition to fanboys defending insults, and that's just not true. I accept Plexa's PR, and he backed up his arguments for each pick reasonably, but there IS bias in each major argument, however little it may be.

You seem to think that everyone who disagrees has some beef against Plexa which is untrue. I don't have any ill will towards the guy, but that doesn't mean i can't see bias in his arguments. That's true for several others.


You're grasping at straws in my intent. I am purely spiteful towards the people in this thread that post nothing but garbage insults and attacks on someone. I am absolutely okay with someone disagreeing with Plexa -- I actually encourage it because it'd be boring if we all just went "well alright that's the ranking for this month I guess." I haven't generalized any of my opposition, hell I wouldn't even considering people who disagree with me my opposition.

You seem like a nice guy who probably disagrees with Plexa. If you do that's fine, give a good reason why and you're a quality poster in everyone's book. I am sick of the pages upon pages of insults and personal attacks and pointless whining about how Plexa hates Jaedong when the man has given Jaedong plenty of praise in the past despite his dislike of him.

If you think he legitimately does have an anti-Jaedong bias then there can be nothing to change that, but if all you're going to post is "Plexa hates Jaedong" then shut up because you literally have nothing to add to the discussion. You pointed out nothing in Plexa's reasonings that are right smack dab in the power ranking. There's no discussion, no debate, just pure, childish kneejerk reactions because you have this preconceived notion about how Plexa OBVIOUSLY ranks someone.


edit -- and about that hypothetical calm flash thing, I wasn't beating around the bush, you just gave an entirely non-realistic setting that leaves out a multitude of factors that would go into my decision making process. I am not Flash #1 all the time everytime and you just pulled a stupid strawman to go "look you have bias there it is!" because you gave an wholly fabricated scenario.
Remember Violet.
Yxes2211
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1587 Posts
July 22 2010 03:50 GMT
#782
On July 22 2010 12:45 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 12:29 Yxes2211 wrote:
On July 22 2010 12:17 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Well I wouldn't base my rankings on pure record like that. Say it somehow happened this month, what was the stage they played their matches in, did they play each other, who has the precedence from recent months to backup their monstrous run etc etc. I think this outlines a real fundamental problem in the people who lambast rankings so much, they only ever care about one specific thing and don't have a view for any broader scope, and since the ranking doesn't agree with that simple thing, they latch on to personal insults on the writer.

Then, from those insults, we get people who are trying to defend the insults with "Well Plexa DOES have a bias you know! It's totally okay to think he's a complete hack who is unfit to write the rank because he dislikes a player!"

by the ad hominem in this thread, there should literally never be a power ranking because everyone on the site has favorite players and least favorite players.


I'm not defending the insults, I just posted above that I feel bad he has to make these decisions, since he's always going to be given shit for it. By your answer, you're showing that you are bias in your decision. It wasn't an actual decision that you needed to make (so you wouldn't have to go and look who they played, the setting, etc), it was just a simple question to prove a point. Since you didn't address the simple question, and instead beat around the bush about semi-relevant information that doesn't exist (since it was a hypothetical). How could there be a larger scope if the records were made up, for the sake of the argument?

You also suffer from you're own logic, because of these insults your are trying to defend that there is no bias. And there are fanboys who will always gives true fans a bad name, but there are a lot of people who disagree with Plexa without insulting him. You're generalizing your opposition to fanboys defending insults, and that's just not true. I accept Plexa's PR, and he backed up his arguments for each pick reasonably, but there IS bias in each major argument, however little it may be.

You seem to think that everyone who disagrees has some beef against Plexa which is untrue. I don't have any ill will towards the guy, but that doesn't mean i can't see bias in his arguments. That's true for several others.


You're grasping at straws in my intent. I am purely spiteful towards the people in this thread that post nothing but garbage insults and attacks on someone. I am absolutely okay with someone disagreeing with Plexa -- I actually encourage it because it'd be boring if we all just went "well alright that's the ranking for this month I guess." I haven't generalized any of my opposition, hell I wouldn't even considering people who disagree with me my opposition.

You seem like a nice guy who probably disagrees with Plexa. If you do that's fine, give a good reason why and you're a quality poster in everyone's book. I am sick of the pages upon pages of insults and personal attacks and pointless whining about how Plexa hates Jaedong when the man has given Jaedong plenty of praise in the past despite his dislike of him.

If you think he legitimately does have an anti-Jaedong bias then there can be nothing to change that, but if all you're going to post is "Plexa hates Jaedong" then shut up because you literally have nothing to add to the discussion. You pointed out nothing in Plexa's reasonings that are right smack dab in the power ranking. There's no discussion, no debate, just pure, childish kneejerk reactions because you have this preconceived notion about how Plexa OBVIOUSLY ranks someone.


Lol then me and you got off topic somewhere cuz I totally feel you.
Jaedong and Baby
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
July 22 2010 04:05 GMT
#783
I know everyone forgets about him but I'd like to see Roro make the PR O_o
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
July 22 2010 04:07 GMT
#784
On July 22 2010 13:05 Shikyo wrote:
I know everyone forgets about him but I'd like to see Roro make the PR O_o


and Hiya?
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
Fenrax
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States5018 Posts
July 22 2010 08:39 GMT
#785
On July 22 2010 09:40 L0thar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 08:28 pvzvt wrote:
On July 22 2010 07:46 Fenrax wrote:
JD has just played way better than Flash in the last 3 months (in every single one of them).

If you would choose the most JD biased starting point to count WL stats (the day after their final) JD is 15-3 while Flash is 8-8. But this would be unfair since the series DID happen and should be taken into consideration for comparing these two. The most Flash biased starting point you could possibly choose is exactly the day after Flashs loss to Effort and before his 3-0 over JD. But even then Flash is only 11-8, while JD is 15-6.

Another argument for Flash was his dominance during the last months. So lets check this for the last three month: If you go back to the beginning of May Flash is 26-14 while Jaedong is 28-7 - more wins and half the amount of losses for JD - an insane 80% winrate over 3 month vs. a very good 65%.

So it doesn't matter if you say it is a monthly power rank or if you say the power rank should take long term play into consideration. Also the number of games in combination with the gap in W/L percentages is way to high to argue with buildorders or gameplay against it.
So at the moment JD is #1 and Flash is somewhere between #2 and #4, depending on whether you choose long term strength or recent events for the ranking.

the finest way to show the truth
i will really but really be disappointed if the following pr wont give the man #1
give the guy what he deserves already



Since when did Power Rank turn into Win:Loss Rank?

You know what, screw Plexa, FakeSteve, JWD and everybody else who has ever written a PR. These noobs know nothing about Starcraft! Let's instead make a program which will select top 10 players based on TLPD at the start of each month .



Actually your sarcasm disqualifies yourself and it is an annoyance, but I'll still answer because it addresses the important point of WL rate vs. better game play.

I am far away from saying the PR should only be determined by a WL rate, especially not by a monthly WL rate. This leads to strange deviations like Light making #2 on PR for one month out of nowhere only to vanish back in the void again just as quick. It should always respect the play a player has shown (for example Bisu this month was just insanely good and thus should be rewarded for it in PR), the matchups and opponents he has gotten (for example, Light had exclusively played T and Z when when he became #2) and not overvalue a buildorder loss against a lesser opponent.

However, if a player consistently has won WAY MORE (80% vs. 65%) than another player for three month, every month, at any point, and over 40 games, then the player was just better at this time. There is just no possibility of arguing away such a big gap with matchups, gameplay, buildorder wins/losses etc. The big number of games played over such a long time will certainly have balanced out BO advantages, fluke wins and opponnents strength.
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
July 22 2010 10:36 GMT
#786
On July 20 2010 18:09 Elroi wrote:
If Flash beats a guy who isn't even on the ranking, he deserves to remain #1? We are so indulgent with him ><

Well, I guess he deserves it after 4 consecutive finals though.

watch game quality first and forward; Violet played midas so damn well.
In the woods, there lurks..
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
July 22 2010 10:37 GMT
#787
On July 22 2010 13:07 SuperArc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 13:05 Shikyo wrote:
I know everyone forgets about him but I'd like to see Roro make the PR O_o


and Hiya?

hiya is out of the MSL, roro + Show Spoiler +
lost against light, who is currently on a tvz monster streak

But yeah, roro needs cbnc atleast.
In the woods, there lurks..
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 10:48:05
July 22 2010 10:45 GMT
#788
On July 22 2010 17:39 Fenrax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 09:40 L0thar wrote:
On July 22 2010 08:28 pvzvt wrote:
On July 22 2010 07:46 Fenrax wrote:
JD has just played way better than Flash in the last 3 months (in every single one of them).

If you would choose the most JD biased starting point to count WL stats (the day after their final) JD is 15-3 while Flash is 8-8. But this would be unfair since the series DID happen and should be taken into consideration for comparing these two. The most Flash biased starting point you could possibly choose is exactly the day after Flashs loss to Effort and before his 3-0 over JD. But even then Flash is only 11-8, while JD is 15-6.

Another argument for Flash was his dominance during the last months. So lets check this for the last three month: If you go back to the beginning of May Flash is 26-14 while Jaedong is 28-7 - more wins and half the amount of losses for JD - an insane 80% winrate over 3 month vs. a very good 65%.

So it doesn't matter if you say it is a monthly power rank or if you say the power rank should take long term play into consideration. Also the number of games in combination with the gap in W/L percentages is way to high to argue with buildorders or gameplay against it.
So at the moment JD is #1 and Flash is somewhere between #2 and #4, depending on whether you choose long term strength or recent events for the ranking.

the finest way to show the truth
i will really but really be disappointed if the following pr wont give the man #1
give the guy what he deserves already



Since when did Power Rank turn into Win:Loss Rank?

You know what, screw Plexa, FakeSteve, JWD and everybody else who has ever written a PR. These noobs know nothing about Starcraft! Let's instead make a program which will select top 10 players based on TLPD at the start of each month .



Actually your sarcasm disqualifies yourself and it is an annoyance, but I'll still answer because it addresses the important point of WL rate vs. better game play.

I am far away from saying the PR should only be determined by a WL rate, especially not by a monthly WL rate. This leads to strange deviations like Light making #2 on PR for one month out of nowhere only to vanish back in the void again just as quick. It should always respect the play a player has shown (for example Bisu this month was just insanely good and thus should be rewarded for it in PR), the matchups and opponents he has gotten (for example, Light had exclusively played T and Z when when he became #2) and not overvalue a buildorder loss against a lesser opponent.

However, if a player consistently has won WAY MORE (80% vs. 65%) than another player for three month, every month, at any point, and over 40 games, then the player was just better at this time. There is just no possibility of arguing away such a big gap with matchups, gameplay, buildorder wins/losses etc. The big number of games played over such a long time will certainly have balanced out BO advantages, fluke wins and opponnents strength.

I don't see how you can use 3 months as an arguement when Flash was in dual finals for the second time 2 months ago.
Jaedong has been performing better than Flash one month.
Before then Flash was floating far above the competition.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Fenrax
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States5018 Posts
July 22 2010 11:04 GMT
#789
3 month are actually a quite wide interval for a monthly PR. The dual finals do not give Flash #1 immunity.
tree.hugger
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 11:36:27
July 22 2010 11:18 GMT
#790
MSL Round of 16, Day 1 spoilers:
+ Show Spoiler +
Waiting for the deluge of people being surprised that (P)Bisu lost. But even if he had won against Sea, people would've put him at #1? Are you insane?

Look, the idea of someone going from #10 to #1 is somewhat silly, unless everyone in front of him completely fails, and the other player wins pretty much everything. See how EffOrt went to #2 after not being the rank the previous month. But he won the OSL over the best player in the game. Bisu beat Snow's PvP, which, while impressive, isn't even a good indicator of overall skill, let alone #1.

I think Bisu is playing around #5 - #7 right now, but his month has been good, he'll be up there. But not up there.

***

And also, (T)Light is 20-1 in his last 21 TvZ's. That's absurd. He's 7-3 on the month as well, and, provided he doesn't lose two in a row to RorO, that should be good enough for a decent PR spot.
ModeratorEffOrt, Snow, GuMiho, and Team Liquid
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
July 22 2010 11:23 GMT
#791
On July 22 2010 19:37 Iplaythings wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 13:07 SuperArc wrote:
On July 22 2010 13:05 Shikyo wrote:
I know everyone forgets about him but I'd like to see Roro make the PR O_o


and Hiya?

hiya is out of the MSL, roro + Show Spoiler +
lost against light, who is currently on a tvz monster streak

But yeah, roro needs cbnc atleast.


But Hiya is in the OSL.

On July 22 2010 19:45 StylishVODs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 17:39 Fenrax wrote:
On July 22 2010 09:40 L0thar wrote:
On July 22 2010 08:28 pvzvt wrote:
On July 22 2010 07:46 Fenrax wrote:
JD has just played way better than Flash in the last 3 months (in every single one of them).

If you would choose the most JD biased starting point to count WL stats (the day after their final) JD is 15-3 while Flash is 8-8. But this would be unfair since the series DID happen and should be taken into consideration for comparing these two. The most Flash biased starting point you could possibly choose is exactly the day after Flashs loss to Effort and before his 3-0 over JD. But even then Flash is only 11-8, while JD is 15-6.

Another argument for Flash was his dominance during the last months. So lets check this for the last three month: If you go back to the beginning of May Flash is 26-14 while Jaedong is 28-7 - more wins and half the amount of losses for JD - an insane 80% winrate over 3 month vs. a very good 65%.

So it doesn't matter if you say it is a monthly power rank or if you say the power rank should take long term play into consideration. Also the number of games in combination with the gap in W/L percentages is way to high to argue with buildorders or gameplay against it.
So at the moment JD is #1 and Flash is somewhere between #2 and #4, depending on whether you choose long term strength or recent events for the ranking.

the finest way to show the truth
i will really but really be disappointed if the following pr wont give the man #1
give the guy what he deserves already



Since when did Power Rank turn into Win:Loss Rank?

You know what, screw Plexa, FakeSteve, JWD and everybody else who has ever written a PR. These noobs know nothing about Starcraft! Let's instead make a program which will select top 10 players based on TLPD at the start of each month .



Actually your sarcasm disqualifies yourself and it is an annoyance, but I'll still answer because it addresses the important point of WL rate vs. better game play.

I am far away from saying the PR should only be determined by a WL rate, especially not by a monthly WL rate. This leads to strange deviations like Light making #2 on PR for one month out of nowhere only to vanish back in the void again just as quick. It should always respect the play a player has shown (for example Bisu this month was just insanely good and thus should be rewarded for it in PR), the matchups and opponents he has gotten (for example, Light had exclusively played T and Z when when he became #2) and not overvalue a buildorder loss against a lesser opponent.

However, if a player consistently has won WAY MORE (80% vs. 65%) than another player for three month, every month, at any point, and over 40 games, then the player was just better at this time. There is just no possibility of arguing away such a big gap with matchups, gameplay, buildorder wins/losses etc. The big number of games played over such a long time will certainly have balanced out BO advantages, fluke wins and opponnents strength.

I don't see how you can use 3 months as an arguement when Flash was in dual finals for the second time 2 months ago.
Jaedong has been performing better than Flash one month.
Before then Flash was floating far above the competition.


Jaedong has been performing better than Flash for more than a month now.
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
July 22 2010 11:36 GMT
#792
On July 22 2010 20:23 SuperArc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 19:37 Iplaythings wrote:
On July 22 2010 13:07 SuperArc wrote:
On July 22 2010 13:05 Shikyo wrote:
I know everyone forgets about him but I'd like to see Roro make the PR O_o


and Hiya?

hiya is out of the MSL, roro + Show Spoiler +
lost against light, who is currently on a tvz monster streak

But yeah, roro needs cbnc atleast.


But Hiya is in the OSL.

Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 19:45 StylishVODs wrote:
On July 22 2010 17:39 Fenrax wrote:
On July 22 2010 09:40 L0thar wrote:
On July 22 2010 08:28 pvzvt wrote:
On July 22 2010 07:46 Fenrax wrote:
JD has just played way better than Flash in the last 3 months (in every single one of them).

If you would choose the most JD biased starting point to count WL stats (the day after their final) JD is 15-3 while Flash is 8-8. But this would be unfair since the series DID happen and should be taken into consideration for comparing these two. The most Flash biased starting point you could possibly choose is exactly the day after Flashs loss to Effort and before his 3-0 over JD. But even then Flash is only 11-8, while JD is 15-6.

Another argument for Flash was his dominance during the last months. So lets check this for the last three month: If you go back to the beginning of May Flash is 26-14 while Jaedong is 28-7 - more wins and half the amount of losses for JD - an insane 80% winrate over 3 month vs. a very good 65%.

So it doesn't matter if you say it is a monthly power rank or if you say the power rank should take long term play into consideration. Also the number of games in combination with the gap in W/L percentages is way to high to argue with buildorders or gameplay against it.
So at the moment JD is #1 and Flash is somewhere between #2 and #4, depending on whether you choose long term strength or recent events for the ranking.

the finest way to show the truth
i will really but really be disappointed if the following pr wont give the man #1
give the guy what he deserves already



Since when did Power Rank turn into Win:Loss Rank?

You know what, screw Plexa, FakeSteve, JWD and everybody else who has ever written a PR. These noobs know nothing about Starcraft! Let's instead make a program which will select top 10 players based on TLPD at the start of each month .



Actually your sarcasm disqualifies yourself and it is an annoyance, but I'll still answer because it addresses the important point of WL rate vs. better game play.

I am far away from saying the PR should only be determined by a WL rate, especially not by a monthly WL rate. This leads to strange deviations like Light making #2 on PR for one month out of nowhere only to vanish back in the void again just as quick. It should always respect the play a player has shown (for example Bisu this month was just insanely good and thus should be rewarded for it in PR), the matchups and opponents he has gotten (for example, Light had exclusively played T and Z when when he became #2) and not overvalue a buildorder loss against a lesser opponent.

However, if a player consistently has won WAY MORE (80% vs. 65%) than another player for three month, every month, at any point, and over 40 games, then the player was just better at this time. There is just no possibility of arguing away such a big gap with matchups, gameplay, buildorder wins/losses etc. The big number of games played over such a long time will certainly have balanced out BO advantages, fluke wins and opponnents strength.

I don't see how you can use 3 months as an arguement when Flash was in dual finals for the second time 2 months ago.
Jaedong has been performing better than Flash one month.
Before then Flash was floating far above the competition.


Jaedong has been performing better than Flash for more than a month now.

How much has flash played? Jaedong is first, but my honest guess is that Flash burned out and took a break after the finals was secured.
Just wait undtil Violet v Flash to see how "slumping" he is.
In the woods, there lurks..
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 11:41:21
July 22 2010 11:40 GMT
#793
On July 22 2010 20:36 Iplaythings wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 20:23 SuperArc wrote:
On July 22 2010 19:37 Iplaythings wrote:
On July 22 2010 13:07 SuperArc wrote:
On July 22 2010 13:05 Shikyo wrote:
I know everyone forgets about him but I'd like to see Roro make the PR O_o


and Hiya?

hiya is out of the MSL, roro + Show Spoiler +
lost against light, who is currently on a tvz monster streak

But yeah, roro needs cbnc atleast.


But Hiya is in the OSL.

On July 22 2010 19:45 StylishVODs wrote:
On July 22 2010 17:39 Fenrax wrote:
On July 22 2010 09:40 L0thar wrote:
On July 22 2010 08:28 pvzvt wrote:
On July 22 2010 07:46 Fenrax wrote:
JD has just played way better than Flash in the last 3 months (in every single one of them).

If you would choose the most JD biased starting point to count WL stats (the day after their final) JD is 15-3 while Flash is 8-8. But this would be unfair since the series DID happen and should be taken into consideration for comparing these two. The most Flash biased starting point you could possibly choose is exactly the day after Flashs loss to Effort and before his 3-0 over JD. But even then Flash is only 11-8, while JD is 15-6.

Another argument for Flash was his dominance during the last months. So lets check this for the last three month: If you go back to the beginning of May Flash is 26-14 while Jaedong is 28-7 - more wins and half the amount of losses for JD - an insane 80% winrate over 3 month vs. a very good 65%.

So it doesn't matter if you say it is a monthly power rank or if you say the power rank should take long term play into consideration. Also the number of games in combination with the gap in W/L percentages is way to high to argue with buildorders or gameplay against it.
So at the moment JD is #1 and Flash is somewhere between #2 and #4, depending on whether you choose long term strength or recent events for the ranking.

the finest way to show the truth
i will really but really be disappointed if the following pr wont give the man #1
give the guy what he deserves already



Since when did Power Rank turn into Win:Loss Rank?

You know what, screw Plexa, FakeSteve, JWD and everybody else who has ever written a PR. These noobs know nothing about Starcraft! Let's instead make a program which will select top 10 players based on TLPD at the start of each month .



Actually your sarcasm disqualifies yourself and it is an annoyance, but I'll still answer because it addresses the important point of WL rate vs. better game play.

I am far away from saying the PR should only be determined by a WL rate, especially not by a monthly WL rate. This leads to strange deviations like Light making #2 on PR for one month out of nowhere only to vanish back in the void again just as quick. It should always respect the play a player has shown (for example Bisu this month was just insanely good and thus should be rewarded for it in PR), the matchups and opponents he has gotten (for example, Light had exclusively played T and Z when when he became #2) and not overvalue a buildorder loss against a lesser opponent.

However, if a player consistently has won WAY MORE (80% vs. 65%) than another player for three month, every month, at any point, and over 40 games, then the player was just better at this time. There is just no possibility of arguing away such a big gap with matchups, gameplay, buildorder wins/losses etc. The big number of games played over such a long time will certainly have balanced out BO advantages, fluke wins and opponnents strength.

I don't see how you can use 3 months as an arguement when Flash was in dual finals for the second time 2 months ago.
Jaedong has been performing better than Flash one month.
Before then Flash was floating far above the competition.


Jaedong has been performing better than Flash for more than a month now.

How much has flash played? Jaedong is first, but my honest guess is that Flash burned out and took a break after the finals was secured.
Just wait undtil Violet v Flash to see how "slumping" he is.


I dont think a lot say Flash is slumping. Most even dont want him to go lower than top2. Its just JD has been playing way better than Flash the last 2-3 months and deserves to be #1 more than Flash
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
July 22 2010 11:47 GMT
#794
you might want to stop at a month and a half, super arc. Not 2 to 3.
Remember Violet.
Fenrax
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States5018 Posts
July 22 2010 11:53 GMT
#795
On July 22 2010 20:47 TwoToneTerran wrote:
you might want to stop at a month and a half, super arc. Not 2 to 3.


Look here, it is since May that JD is playing better than Flash:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133489&currentpage=38#753
Loffeman
Profile Joined June 2007
Sweden105 Posts
July 22 2010 12:15 GMT
#796
Before you argue that Flash has been better the last 3 months look at the games and statistics please. People have been so impressed with Flash's play that they totally missed that JD has been on a roll as well
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 12:56:56
July 22 2010 12:56 GMT
#797
On July 22 2010 20:53 Fenrax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 20:47 TwoToneTerran wrote:
you might want to stop at a month and a half, super arc. Not 2 to 3.


Look here, it is since May that JD is playing better than Flash:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133489&currentpage=38#753


Right, we're 2/3rds of the way through July (which both have played barely any games) and that Finals was at the very end of May. That's not even 2 months. 1 and 2/3rds if you're being generous.

And I mean, people are posting THREE months. Urggh.
Remember Violet.
WWJDD
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
India342 Posts
July 22 2010 14:50 GMT
#798
On July 22 2010 21:56 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 20:53 Fenrax wrote:
On July 22 2010 20:47 TwoToneTerran wrote:
you might want to stop at a month and a half, super arc. Not 2 to 3.


Look here, it is since May that JD is playing better than Flash:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133489&currentpage=38#753


Right, we're 2/3rds of the way through July (which both have played barely any games) and that Finals was at the very end of May. That's not even 2 months. 1 and 2/3rds if you're being generous.

And I mean, people are posting THREE months. Urggh.


So you are saying that Flash played as dominantly as JD has played this month and last month? Because that's the only thing that will justify Flash remaining #1 on the PR.

Did you even watch any of the Flash games? They were so awful. Even the ones he won, were hardly a domination. How can you justify a player who looks so shaky being #1? When there are at least three others who look solid and even spectacular in every matchup.
WWJDD??
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
July 22 2010 14:56 GMT
#799
On July 22 2010 21:56 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 20:53 Fenrax wrote:
On July 22 2010 20:47 TwoToneTerran wrote:
you might want to stop at a month and a half, super arc. Not 2 to 3.


Look here, it is since May that JD is playing better than Flash:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133489&currentpage=38#753


Right, we're 2/3rds of the way through July (which both have played barely any games) and that Finals was at the very end of May. That's not even 2 months. 1 and 2/3rds if you're being generous.

And I mean, people are posting THREE months. Urggh.


I actually count the whole month of May too. The final was unfortunate yes, but JD still played awesome games that month
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
L0thar
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
987 Posts
July 22 2010 15:07 GMT
#800
On July 22 2010 17:39 Fenrax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 09:40 L0thar wrote:
On July 22 2010 08:28 pvzvt wrote:
On July 22 2010 07:46 Fenrax wrote:
JD has just played way better than Flash in the last 3 months (in every single one of them).

If you would choose the most JD biased starting point to count WL stats (the day after their final) JD is 15-3 while Flash is 8-8. But this would be unfair since the series DID happen and should be taken into consideration for comparing these two. The most Flash biased starting point you could possibly choose is exactly the day after Flashs loss to Effort and before his 3-0 over JD. But even then Flash is only 11-8, while JD is 15-6.

Another argument for Flash was his dominance during the last months. So lets check this for the last three month: If you go back to the beginning of May Flash is 26-14 while Jaedong is 28-7 - more wins and half the amount of losses for JD - an insane 80% winrate over 3 month vs. a very good 65%.

So it doesn't matter if you say it is a monthly power rank or if you say the power rank should take long term play into consideration. Also the number of games in combination with the gap in W/L percentages is way to high to argue with buildorders or gameplay against it.
So at the moment JD is #1 and Flash is somewhere between #2 and #4, depending on whether you choose long term strength or recent events for the ranking.

the finest way to show the truth
i will really but really be disappointed if the following pr wont give the man #1
give the guy what he deserves already



Since when did Power Rank turn into Win:Loss Rank?

You know what, screw Plexa, FakeSteve, JWD and everybody else who has ever written a PR. These noobs know nothing about Starcraft! Let's instead make a program which will select top 10 players based on TLPD at the start of each month .



Actually your sarcasm disqualifies yourself and it is an annoyance, but I'll still answer because it addresses the important point of WL rate vs. better game play.

I am far away from saying the PR should only be determined by a WL rate, especially not by a monthly WL rate. This leads to strange deviations like Light making #2 on PR for one month out of nowhere only to vanish back in the void again just as quick. It should always respect the play a player has shown (for example Bisu this month was just insanely good and thus should be rewarded for it in PR), the matchups and opponents he has gotten (for example, Light had exclusively played T and Z when when he became #2) and not overvalue a buildorder loss against a lesser opponent.

However, if a player consistently has won WAY MORE (80% vs. 65%) than another player for three month, every month, at any point, and over 40 games, then the player was just better at this time. There is just no possibility of arguing away such a big gap with matchups, gameplay, buildorder wins/losses etc. The big number of games played over such a long time will certainly have balanced out BO advantages, fluke wins and opponnents strength.


You are still not looking at the whole picture. A litte example: Player A in one week goes 2:0 in PL, 3:2 in OSL and 3:2 in MSL. His record is 8:4..."measly" 66%. Player B goes 2:0 in PL and 3:0 in MSL, however he was already kicked from OSL, so he didn't play there. His record is 5:0, beastly 100%.

Now don't tell me you would say from that Player B is better. Two leagues are kinda more than one. And that's the thing with Flash and Jaedong. Flash got to two consecutive double finals (first time in BW history btw.) and has much busier schedule than Jaedong, who found himself kicked from OSL pretty soon and could concentrate more on his remaining matches. Therefore it was easier for him to keep better winning percentage.

And at the end of the day, Flash was still able to completely dismatle Jaedong eventhough he had a harder schedule.

That's the kind of information good PR writer needs to take into account as well, not just pure numbers.
Prev 1 38 39 40 41 42 55 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 28m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Harstem 3
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 5777
Horang2 2767
ggaemo 2128
Bisu 751
Larva 635
Jaedong 552
firebathero 435
EffOrt 372
Zeus 369
BeSt 361
[ Show more ]
Nal_rA 263
TY 206
Mong 127
Soma 98
hero 94
PianO 80
ToSsGirL 79
ZerO 58
Killer 58
sorry 38
Rush 35
Sharp 29
Free 20
Sacsri 20
sSak 17
Bale 9
Hm[arnc] 6
[sc1f]eonzerg 0
Dota 2
XaKoH 508
XcaliburYe266
ODPixel101
League of Legends
JimRising 354
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2378
ScreaM1542
shoxiejesuss781
Stewie2K741
Super Smash Bros
Westballz36
Other Games
singsing1736
Happy325
crisheroes271
DeMusliM194
SortOf156
Lowko25
B2W.Neo21
ZerO(Twitch)20
rGuardiaN15
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 60
• davetesta21
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV384
Upcoming Events
WardiTV European League
5h 28m
MaNa vs NightPhoenix
ByuN vs YoungYakov
ShoWTimE vs Nicoract
Harstem vs ArT
Korean StarCraft League
16h 28m
CranKy Ducklings
23h 28m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 1h
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs TBD
WardiTV European League
1d 5h
Shameless vs MaxPax
HeRoMaRinE vs SKillous
Online Event
1d 7h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 23h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs TBD
WardiTV European League
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
[ Show More ]
OSC
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
FEL Cracow 2025
Underdog Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
CC Div. A S7
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
CAC 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.