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On July 22 2010 09:40 L0thar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 08:28 pvzvt wrote:On July 22 2010 07:46 Fenrax wrote:
JD has just played way better than Flash in the last 3 months (in every single one of them).
If you would choose the most JD biased starting point to count WL stats (the day after their final) JD is 15-3 while Flash is 8-8. But this would be unfair since the series DID happen and should be taken into consideration for comparing these two. The most Flash biased starting point you could possibly choose is exactly the day after Flashs loss to Effort and before his 3-0 over JD. But even then Flash is only 11-8, while JD is 15-6.
Another argument for Flash was his dominance during the last months. So lets check this for the last three month: If you go back to the beginning of May Flash is 26-14 while Jaedong is 28-7 - more wins and half the amount of losses for JD - an insane 80% winrate over 3 month vs. a very good 65%.
So it doesn't matter if you say it is a monthly power rank or if you say the power rank should take long term play into consideration. Also the number of games in combination with the gap in W/L percentages is way to high to argue with buildorders or gameplay against it.
So at the moment JD is #1 and Flash is somewhere between #2 and #4, depending on whether you choose long term strength or recent events for the ranking. the finest way to show the truth i will really but really be disappointed if the following pr wont give the man #1 give the guy what he deserves already Since when did Power Rank turn into Win:Loss Rank? You know what, screw Plexa, FakeSteve, JWD and everybody else who has ever written a PR. These noobs know nothing about Starcraft! Let's instead make a program which will select top 10 players based on TLPD at the start of each month .
maybe we'll change the name monthly power ranking and call it what ever it fits .
(i'm maybe biased but dont expect me to be quiet about robing him the number 1 spot )
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Nah it's beyond people in this thread to show a little respect, we understand pvzvt.
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I do not envy Plexa for having to do the PR next month D:
Between JD's, Effort's, and Bisu's spectacular play this month it's gonna be a difficult decision (unless they totally choke in the next 10 days)
Note: The only reason I haven't included Flash is cuz he's only got 5 games under his belt this month and he's 3-2 >.> And I don't want to try and predict his next games XD
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Plexa's not a flash fanboy, I have no idea why people call him that, it's completely unjustified.
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On July 22 2010 10:18 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 10:12 insanet wrote:
Guys, havent you learned anything about plexa?
I can already see it, no matter what happens the next days, Flash is going to be number 1 for plexa. there is no way this month is as bad as june.
whatever, honestly, i dont care anymore about this rank. *sigh* Seriously, all of you who are saying "Oh Plexa is biased so Flash is always going to be #1 Forever!" are gravely mistaken. Plexa isn't a blind fanboy of KT, he grades by what he FEELS the state of starcraft to be right now. IF you are going to disagree, disagree with his reasons, not with plexa himself.
Pexa is not a Flash fanboy, hes a jaedong anti-fan. So he will try to never give JD #1 no matter how good he plays.
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No he won't. He literally made an article about how he thought Jaedong is the most persistent and arguably greatest player ever.
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Yeah, in which he states "I hate Jaedong" quite plainly.
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But Plexa is a Sea fanboy right? Just to make it clear.
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On July 22 2010 11:21 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Yeah, in which he states "I hate Jaedong" quite plainly.
I hate Calm and Best but that doesn't mean they aren't good and I can't recognize it.
It's disingenuous to think that someone can't put their hangups and personal opinions aside to write an article.
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On July 22 2010 11:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 11:21 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Yeah, in which he states "I hate Jaedong" quite plainly. I hate Calm and Best but that doesn't mean they aren't good and I can't recognize it. It's disingenuous to think that someone can't put their hangups and personal opinions aside to write an article.
I'm not trying to troll or nothin, but whether you recognize their skill, you're always going to be biased to players you dislike are you not?
I mean, I wouldn't want Plexa's job, cuz someone is always gonna be pissed about something, but shouldn't there be an acknowledgment that there is SOME bias seeing as how Plexa said he was "the #1 Jaedong anti-fan".
And I know you said people can put those aside, but isn't that kind of ideal to say that you can easily put your bias aside to make the "right" decision. I'm not saying Plexa is driven by his own bias to make his decision, but i just find it hard to believe that bias didn't influence some part of the decision :\
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Nope, you do not have to show your bias even if you have it. People are perfectly able to put their biases aside, and the only way they aren't is if they believe it isn't possible.
edit in response to your edit: But here you are, assuming bias, when you obviously have a bias in favor of Jaedong. It's hypocritical to think that everyone is automatically influenced by their biases and then you yourself ignore your own when you talk about a subject including Jaedong.
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On July 22 2010 11:44 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Nope, you do not have to show your bias even if you have it. People are perfectly able to put their biases aside, and the only way they aren't is if they believe it isn't possible.
like JWD...?
And remember how both Light and Sea (MBC AND terrans) were ranked above JD because Sea would have won all the games Light won if he had played and JDs health was not good so he was put at #4.
Humans will always be biased and no, we cant put our bias aside. Its part of our nature.
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On July 22 2010 11:48 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 11:44 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Nope, you do not have to show your bias even if you have it. People are perfectly able to put their biases aside, and the only way they aren't is if they believe it isn't possible. like JWD...? And remember how both Light and Sea (MBC AND terrans) were ranked above JD because Sea would have won all the games Light won if he had played and JDs health was not good so he was put at #4. Humans will always be biased and no, we cant put our bias aside. Its part of our nature.
Yep sometimes bias is obvious, but many people who aren't just being disrespectful assholes who come here only to insult others have pointed out that this was a tough call. There wasn't necessarily a right call because Flash had been so enormously dominant previously, and Jaedong has only played fairly mediocre competition -- and it's not like he even went undefeated. Plexa's decision was at the very least reasonable, it's not like he put Fantasy over Jaedong despite, even in his article, saying he likes Fantasy more. He didn't put Jaedong at #2 out of spite for Jaedong, but out of respect for Flash.
It's just so belligerent and pathetic the way people treat the thought he put into this.
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On July 22 2010 11:44 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Nope, you do not have to show your bias even if you have it. People are perfectly able to put their biases aside, and the only way they aren't is if they believe it isn't possible.
edit in response to your edit: But here you are, assuming bias, when you obviously have a bias in favor of Jaedong. It's hypocritical to think that everyone is automatically influenced by their biases and then you yourself ignore your own when you talk about a subject including Jaedong.
Exactly, and I'll acknowledge my bias, but acknowledging you're bias is part of making a decision, by saying "I just ignore my bias" just doesn't happen in 99.9% of people, maybe you're special and can do that, but it's just natural for people to act on bias.
And so if Calm went 16-0 and Flash went 15-1 assuming they played the same quality opponents, wouldn't you try and argue Flash deserved more than Calm?
It's not a bad thing necessarily, but if you pretend the bias isn't there its kinda ignorant.
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Well I wouldn't base my rankings on pure record like that. Say it somehow happened this month, what was the stage they played their matches in, did they play each other, who has the precedence from recent months to backup their monstrous run etc etc. I think this outlines a real fundamental problem in the people who lambast rankings so much, they only ever care about one specific thing and don't have a view for any broader scope, and since the ranking doesn't agree with that simple thing, they latch on to personal insults on the writer.
Then, from those insults, we get people who are trying to defend the insults with "Well Plexa DOES have a bias you know! It's totally okay to think he's a complete hack who is unfit to write the rank because he dislikes a player!"
by the ad hominem in this thread, there should literally never be a power ranking because everyone on the site has favorite players and least favorite players.
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This talk of "if you prefer player X over player Y you automatically have to give player Y the benefit of the doubt" isn't right either, and while we're on the subject of bias, any of you with any sense who are talking about this and acting like JD is being hated on should also realize that if the shoe was on the other foot you'd be preaching a very different tune.
Bias is and always has been a part of power Rank and it always will be unless we change PR into something completely different. If you want an unbiased ranking, perhaps we could copy/paste the ELO top 10 every month?
People are just pissed off because the perceived bias is against their bias.
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On July 22 2010 12:17 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Well I wouldn't base my rankings on pure record like that. Say it somehow happened this month, what was the stage they played their matches in, did they play each other, who has the precedence from recent months to backup their monstrous run etc etc. I think this outlines a real fundamental problem in the people who lambast rankings so much, they only ever care about one specific thing and don't have a view for any broader scope, and since the ranking doesn't agree with that simple thing, they latch on to personal insults on the writer.
Then, from those insults, we get people who are trying to defend the insults with "Well Plexa DOES have a bias you know! It's totally okay to think he's a complete hack who is unfit to write the rank because he dislikes a player!"
by the ad hominem in this thread, there should literally never be a power ranking because everyone on the site has favorite players and least favorite players.
I'm not defending the insults, I just posted above that I feel bad he has to make these decisions, since he's always going to be given shit for it. By your answer, you're showing that you are bias in your decision. It wasn't an actual decision that you needed to make (so you wouldn't have to go and look who they played, the setting, etc), it was just a simple question to prove a point. Since you didn't address the simple question, and instead beat around the bush about semi-relevant information that doesn't exist (since it was a hypothetical). How could there be a larger scope if the records were made up, for the sake of the argument?
You also suffer from you're own logic, because of these insults your are trying to defend that there is no bias. And there are fanboys who will always gives true fans a bad name, but there are a lot of people who disagree with Plexa without insulting him. You're generalizing your opposition to fanboys defending insults, and that's just not true. I accept Plexa's PR, and he backed up his arguments for each pick reasonably, but there IS bias in each major argument, however little it may be.
You seem to think that everyone who disagrees has some beef against Plexa which is untrue. I don't have any ill will towards the guy, but that doesn't mean i can't see bias in his arguments. That's true for several others.
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this is interesting. Bisu showed proficiency in all of his MU's ( vZ msl group , vT Iris , vP Snow ) . his battle micro was S level and his ingame decisions were excellent.
i think he's back to his top form but.. until Flash/Jaedong play more games i dont think it is right for bisu to transcend either of them. it wouldnt be fair to either of them. So i believe it should be
1) Flash
2) Jaedong
3) Bisu
UNTILL they have a chance to play one another , or one's rate of play drops significantly.
also. please put stork somewhere in this ranking <3
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On July 22 2010 12:19 Mortality wrote:
This talk of "if you prefer player X over player Y you automatically have to give player Y the benefit of the doubt" isn't right either, and while we're on the subject of bias, any of you with any sense who are talking about this and acting like JD is being hated on should also realize that if the shoe was on the other foot you'd be preaching a very different tune.
Bias is and always has been a part of power Rank and it always will be unless we change PR into something completely different. If you want an unbiased ranking, perhaps we could copy/paste the ELO top 10 every month?
People are just pissed off because the perceived bias is against their bias.
Well said.
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On July 22 2010 12:29 serenidite wrote:
this is interesting. Bisu showed proficiency in all of his MU's ( vZ msl group , vT Iris , vP Snow ) . his battle micro was S level and his ingame decisions were excellent.
i think he's back to his top form but.. until Flash/Jaedong play more games i dont think it is right for bisu to transcend either of them. it wouldnt be fair to either of them. So i believe it should be
1) Flash
2) Jaedong
3) Bisu
UNTILL they have a chance to play one another , or one's rate of play drops significantly.
also. please put stork somewhere in this ranking <3
Assuming Bisu plays well in OSL, MSL, and the PLayoffs, I think one could seriously argue him to be #1 next month :3 which would be kinda nice, cuz it's been ages since a Toss took #1 
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EPT
