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On February 01 2010 17:30 TwoToneTerran wrote:Yeah, but of course Flash wasn't in the OSL finals or in PL at all in the same month Jaedong beat him. And he definitely didn't win the OSL AND PL considering Jaedong only won OSL while losing PL and MSL. See where the distinction here is? PL Finals is of course more important than regular PL, but Flash still won his games. Show nested quote +On February 01 2010 17:30 Shikyo wrote:On February 01 2010 17:27 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Right, but the decisive game of the series had a goddamn power outage. Jaedong only won 2 games.
edit: and frankly Flash was playing just fine in that series, and you'd be dumb to think otherwise. Game 2 was amazing and game 3 was great from both until the power outage. Game 1 and 4 were one sided, but that seemed a bit build order impaired, just like Flash's win on HBR in the OSL. He was the better player in every game, and would have won G2 too if he had left 2 guardians home. Doesn't matter, since I watched the games. Also, I trust my B rank friend Solum on JD having absolutely no chance of losing G3, he tends to know his stuff. rofl, your B ranked friend, okay. And "Jaedong would've won Game 2 if--" means nothing. He didn't win game 2, just like Flash didn't win game 1 or 4. No one won game 3 and your B rank friend is not a high level analyst. And frankly that comment is anecdotal garbage. A lot more people who are a lot smarter have commented on whether or not Flash was still in that game and I'd be quicker to agree with Kwark or Idra (Who disagree) then a faceless, pointless friend of yours.
http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/TSL-Solum.html
He's a pretty high level analyst, also beat Xiaozi in a bo3 during the ladder. What do you know?
G2g now, have fun.
Kwark doesn't disagree, Idra doesn't either, only about the decision of freewin but I count that as T bias.
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Right, so he's better than Idra, Kwark, Flash himself, Jaedong, Kespa Refs (Again, they agree, but that isn't my point), and frankly anyone who's actually a name in the field?
It's not that he'd be wrong for saying "jaedong won that game," but you don't give any good reasons and there's TONS of people way more educated on the game than your friend who have posted actual reasons. Saying "I think Jaedong won game 3 because this guy I know said so," isn't a point, it's an anecdote.
It's fair for anyone to have differing opinions on that game, and that's the context of why it wasn't a clean Bo5 win. If you think Flash was still in the game, then it's a 2-1 win and a disappointing series, which frankly doesn't help Jaedong's case when he loses in WL later in the month.
This doesn't have to be your opinion -- that's fine! I'm okay with people thinking Jaedong was the clear winner in that third game, but you've got to be understanding of people who don't think so. In their minds -- some of which aren't actually insane Flash fans like myself -- that puts Jaedong at 2-1 before WL, and therefore 2-2 after WL. Making them even for the month, but giving Jaedong more "important" wins over Flash. But, then you have to consider that Flash also 2-0'd STX, won an OSL, and frankly dominated anyone not Jaedong all season (And did some of that to boot). It's not an automatically right opinion, but it's a fair one and it's the one Plexa seems to have.
There shouldn't be any real outrage here -- disagreeableness, sure, there should always be disagreeableness, but this isn't some travesty of logic where everyone forgoes context and says "But the #2 beat the #1 in a Bo5, absolutely pristinely, surely their spots MUST swap!"
That's always what's bugged me about PR complaints, people always seem to just consider pure record and accomplishment as opposed to context of the record and accomplishment.
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Can't you say that Flash deserves #1 just because he won the OSL and got silver in the MSL even though it looks like JD would beat him right now. I don't think anyone here would pick Kwanro or FBH (lol...) as a favourite vs any other player in the power rank... But atleast Kwanro deserves the spot based on results.
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It's quite depressing that there are like 2 staff members on TL who should not write PR and both of them did or do.
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flash over jaedong in January is not even a question!
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So, how many JD fans wanted to see Clam be above JD just because he stomped him in MSL in a Bo5? No one, because JD was making fucking history by getting the Golden Mouse. Similarly Flash was making history by reaching 2 simultaneous finals while setting a fantastic ELO record and being the clear #1 in PL (with a quite rough schedule, he played a lot more games in January than JD did).
Stop being so fucking greedy, your guy has been #1 on the PR soooo much. Let someone else shine for a second, why dontcha?
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I'm hoping most people here realize that Jaedong and Flash are pretty close skillwise.
Then you have to take into account that flash played double the ammount of games and had to prepare for 2 finals. Thats why he is first.
Lame excuses? Well it's the truth so face it and consider it please.
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fuck PR threads make me rage
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Movie has played very poorly in January, he's just not creative against protoss. CJ is playing Samsung Khan next, I hope Movie proves me wrong and shows that he is a three-dimensional player if he can somehow beat Jangbi or Stork.
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Hiya is a solid player, but sometimes oh man oh man, terribad. #3 pick is win.
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On January 31 2010 20:15 samachking wrote:
You forgot the point that the maps are imbalanced when discussing an impromptu Bo5. This map pool was just as bad as Shinhan 3. The other point is that Bo5s are never impromptu so its irrelevant, Fantasy was a strong series player because of his preparation, that was the part that mattered and JD had way better prep during that finals considering both of them had the same preparation time with JD having a one day advantage. Btw the 3hat before pool on match point was only reactionary, a 9drone scout was sent before hand both by Killer + JD.
Also Plexa might you enlighten me on how and in what way are JD and Flash revolutionizing TvZ? I am just asking this question, the builds JD used in the finals are in no way viable in a standard situation and Flash has simply been playing textbook TvZ to perfection the past season with only better placement + better hard counters to guards and better MnM micro vs Mutas, with perfect macro with minimal unit loss. I dont see any revolution, simply godlike play here.
Overall its a fine power rank, and you did very well with it and all the positions are agreeable and the PO was a nice touch. It's really hard to do the bottom spots when there simply isnt much going on.
your very much wrong about that flash prepared for a tvp and if we look at when his osl win was compared to hte msl only a 4 day difference 19 23? you either didnt research or something meaning jd had way more time to prepare lets consider when your in the mind set of tvp and you planned builds for that and then had to reset your game plan asap and start a tvz gamepaly paln against jaedong who msot likely jsut brushed aside kal like nothing and thought he could meaning he put in a few more days of practice verses flash which is huge in a progamer world
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I don't think the mappool is as imbalanced as some people may think.
Fighting favours Zerg.
Matchpoint is pretty balanced.
Oddeye favours terran.
Ultimatum, i don't know that much about and there has been few games on it. Without flash and jaedong the map is 3-3 TvZ.
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On February 01 2010 17:37 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Right, so he's better than Idra, Kwark, Flash himself, Jaedong, Kespa Refs (Again, they agree, but that isn't my point), and frankly anyone who's actually a name in the field?
It's not that he'd be wrong for saying "jaedong won that game," but you don't give any good reasons and there's TONS of people way more educated on the game than your friend who have posted actual reasons. Saying "I think Jaedong won game 3 because this guy I know said so," isn't a point, it's an anecdote.
It's fair for anyone to have differing opinions on that game, and that's the context of why it wasn't a clean Bo5 win. If you think Flash was still in the game, then it's a 2-1 win and a disappointing series, which frankly doesn't help Jaedong's case when he loses in WL later in the month.
This doesn't have to be your opinion -- that's fine! I'm okay with people thinking Jaedong was the clear winner in that third game, but you've got to be understanding of people who don't think so. In their minds -- some of which aren't actually insane Flash fans like myself -- that puts Jaedong at 2-1 before WL, and therefore 2-2 after WL. Making them even for the month, but giving Jaedong more "important" wins over Flash. But, then you have to consider that Flash also 2-0'd STX, won an OSL, and frankly dominated anyone not Jaedong all season (And did some of that to boot). It's not an automatically right opinion, but it's a fair one and it's the one Plexa seems to have.
There shouldn't be any real outrage here -- disagreeableness, sure, there should always be disagreeableness, but this isn't some travesty of logic where everyone forgoes context and says "But the #2 beat the #1 in a Bo5, absolutely pristinely, surely their spots MUST swap!"
That's always what's bugged me about PR complaints, people always seem to just consider pure record and accomplishment as opposed to context of the record and accomplishment.
Dude I haven't spent half an hour discussing the possible situations or what would be likely to happen in what cases or what Flash would do etc with any of the people you mentioned, but it appeared like he was confident even he could beat Flash in that situation. He also is way better than you, at least that I can be quite certain of.
Kwark agreed that JD had a great advantage, what's your source? So did Idra, he just didn't agree with the decision to give the win instead of a rematch. Flash's opinion isn't really too useful, of course he'd think that he's ahead. Where did JD say that Flash was in a good position? I missed this completely.
You should also consider that the maps they played on were heavily Terran-favored. In fact, just about every single map is T-favored right now, at least in TvZ. The fact that Jaedong can do so well on these maps is quite impressive. But yeah sure, let's pretend that every SINGLE map in the MSL finals, for instance, was not heavily Terran favored vs Zerg. The fact that Flash map-imbas his way to victory vs 17 out of 24 people isn't all that impressive to me, to be honest.
No one considers maps anymore? O.o
I don't understand what you're talking about with the chances of JD in game 3, but 5 potential bases vs 1 min only in the middle of the map with swarm on the way seems quite clear. As my friend said, whenever JD decides to attack, Flash's only mining base is forced to lift and it's gg right there. If you're going to use this as your argument, please show me where the people say that JD didn't have a clear advantage, since I have seen at least both Kwark and Idra say the opposite.
On February 01 2010 21:48 StylishVODs wrote:
I don't think the mappool is as imbalanced as some people may think.
Fighting favours Zerg.
Matchpoint is pretty balanced.
Oddeye favours terran.
Ultimatum, i don't know that much about and there has been few games on it. Without flash and jaedong the map is 3-3 TvZ.
Luckily I asked my friend to analyse the maps while we were watching the finals together ^_^
Rough translation from finnish: "Ultimatum: Looks horrible for Zerg. The bases are extremely difficult to muta harrass, easy min only that T can take relatively easily, and island expansions nearly always favor Terran in TvZ, as well as difficult-to-defend additional gases"
And I'll always believe him until proven wrong ^_^ Also, "The 2. game was 100% Jaedong's if he split his guardians in half and left the other half to defend his base". BTW, this isn't comparable to saying "Flash would have won game 1 if blabla" because... Jaedong was light years ahead, and if he had done that, he'd have been in an unloseable position. It's not like Flash ever was waaay ahead in game 1 and just threw it with one decision. Still, JD played way better the early parts of the game on an imba map like that, which is really impressive.
Also, I love your VODs, but your match point should be "favors Terran", it's not balanced at all. And your "favors Zerg" map has these stats: "TvZ: 21-18 (53.8%)" Get real.
They all favored Terran.
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I'm going to hold that Fighting Spirit is almost perfectly balanced until there's reason to think otherwise. (I suspect that's why Flash thumbed it down and cheesed on it; it's the balanced map of the pool.)
The others seem pretty heavily T favored.
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Well I don't want to get into discussing the games played, but I'd like to put it out there that Fighting spirit actually favours zerg and matchpoint is not imbalanced at all.
It favours zerg in the early game and terran in the lategame.
Fighting spirit is a big map with lots of gasexpansions that are easily defendable. Muta harass is effective and terran will have a hard time taking a forth base while stopping zerg from taking 5 bases.
If terran gets 4 bases its hard to defend main, 3rd and 4th at the same time due to zerg easily taking 5 gas ultraling and drops from opposit sides of the map.
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You can say it's balanced I guess, but saying it's Z-favored is just ridiculously biased. I guess it favors Terran the least, so it must be balanced. Boo-hoo Flash is better than JD because he's only 2-3 vs him on ridiculously T-favored maps, man that's an accomplishment.
EDIT: Yeah I won't put any reasons out either but I'll say that all the maps favor Terran.
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Im not arguing that flash is better than jaedong or vice versa, they're both equal.
Flash accomplishements is better than Jaedongs was last month thats why he's first.
I'm not biased it's the truth. Fighting spirit is good for zerg vs terran.
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Like a few other reasonable people have said, Flash over Jaedong is simply not even a question.
Skill-wise, they are equal or nearly so, and I don't believe that either one of them is a clear favorite against the other. It's like watching a great dance of ballet -- these two players watch the other, adapt to him, and drive each other to heights they would not be able to reach were it not for the other player. That's why they're such a joy to watch.
At the end of this month, Flash won gold and silver, and Jaedong won gold and nothing. There is no justification not to give Flash the number 1 spot when he has gotten much better results with his 2 medals, and it cannot be proven that Jaedong is significantly better than him (no more than it is provable that Flash is better, either).
(And as someone has already pointed out, there have been lots of times in the history of the PR when the top-rated player who lost a final nonetheless still retained number 1 the following month. I don't remember anyone complaining when Savior kept being 1 after Bisu 3-0'd him in that legendary MSL...).
Edit: Don't cry, Jaedong fanboys. If JD is as good as you think he is, he will win the next Starleague, and by then I don't think there will be any reason not to put him first. Just realize that for this month, it would be a huge injustice to Flash, who worked harder, played more games, nearly won 2 Starleagues, and broke an ELO record. But these two will meet again, and soon. Just keep watching, I know I will be.
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If you still feel fighting spirit favours terran please name the reasons for it and ill try to answer them.
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EPT
