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On February 26 2009 15:04 fusionsdf wrote:its a period of dominance see: Can you really say it would be an upset for bisu to lose to jaedong or flash (or even july or best)? until you can say that, hes not bonjwa. Savior's rivals were midas, hwasin, iris, nal_ra, nada of those, only nada could really be considered a strong favorite, and savior was still the odds-on favorite, even against him. sync won an osl. casy won an osl. Not dominant, not bonjwa. I mean july has a fucking golden mouse and hes still not considered bonjwa. Bisu would have to not only win the OSL, but show the dominance both inside and outside the OSL that he showed in the tiebreakers.
Did you bother to read the post before you post your useless junk?
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On February 26 2009 15:39 brjdrb wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 15:26 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. You are no doubt undescribe by word, not even human retardation. Your hatred toward a player is stronger then kryptonite. Wut a faggot, you triple post just so you can satisfy your own projectory of who's worthy to be a bonjwa, guess wut, we don't give a fuk wut u think. When those bonjwas were playing, who the fuck was actually competing at their level? Bisu, to be able to win MSL and GOMTVS2 with these kind of calibers around such as Jaedong, Flash, Jangbi, Stork, etc, are no doubt the most dominance player right now. What happen to Savior when the level of play increases? He simply got rolled over, drop into B-Team, wow, nice trait of a bonjwa don't you think? You, my friend, need to stop sucking Savior's dick. i think you need to take a chill pill. first of all, he didn't even mention savior, so idk where you came up with that. second, the view of bonjwa that he's advocating is one that's pretty generally accepted, in that a bonjwa is a player who is clearly on another level from all other players. bisu is not showing that sort of dominance. yes, he is pretty clearly the best overall protoss (though maybe not in all mu's), and one of the top players. is he clearly on another level from jaedong and flash and jangbi? no. that's all that fusion was saying. no need to flame him for it?
Would you please point out an example of how to go beyond another level of players such as Jaedong and Flash and Jangbi? 100% Winrate?
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You guys can argue all day about if Bisu's gonna be the next Bonjwa or not but the cold hard truth is if he doesn't win this OSL noone will ever be Bonjwa. Players are now so skilled that it's hard for 1 guy to totally dominate the scene.
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[QUOTE]On February 26 2009 10:18 Plexa wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 26 2009 05:28 Qwertify wrote:
Bisu is on SKT1.
Get over it
.[/QUOTE]Nevahhhh!! I'm an angry MBC fanboy. We spent 3 years raising this beast, and now SKT1 gets all the credit >.<. Besides, SKT uniforms look terrible, MBC looks elegant.
your not alone Plexa, this is exactly how i feel 
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On February 26 2009 15:49 Aurioch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 15:39 brjdrb wrote:On February 26 2009 15:26 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. You are no doubt undescribe by word, not even human retardation. Your hatred toward a player is stronger then kryptonite. Wut a faggot, you triple post just so you can satisfy your own projectory of who's worthy to be a bonjwa, guess wut, we don't give a fuk wut u think. When those bonjwas were playing, who the fuck was actually competing at their level? Bisu, to be able to win MSL and GOMTVS2 with these kind of calibers around such as Jaedong, Flash, Jangbi, Stork, etc, are no doubt the most dominance player right now. What happen to Savior when the level of play increases? He simply got rolled over, drop into B-Team, wow, nice trait of a bonjwa don't you think? You, my friend, need to stop sucking Savior's dick. i think you need to take a chill pill. first of all, he didn't even mention savior, so idk where you came up with that. second, the view of bonjwa that he's advocating is one that's pretty generally accepted, in that a bonjwa is a player who is clearly on another level from all other players. bisu is not showing that sort of dominance. yes, he is pretty clearly the best overall protoss (though maybe not in all mu's), and one of the top players. is he clearly on another level from jaedong and flash and jangbi? no. that's all that fusion was saying. no need to flame him for it? Would you please point out an example of how to go beyond another level of players such as Jaedong and Flash and Jangbi? 100% Winrate?
i will admit that that level of dominance is something that's not easily quantified. which is probably why it is so disputed. however, we can just look at his records vs some of the top players from the last year:
vs jaedong: 1-3
vs flash: 4-6
vs leta: 1-1
vs jangbi: 6-3
vs stork: 5-2
vs forgg: 0-2
vs mind: 2-0
vs july: 2-1
vs luxury: 1-2
(from 02/25/08 - 02/25/09 in TLPD)
the list goes on. yes, u can say i just chose random players, but i think we can both agree that those are some of the best players in the last year in starcraft. if bisu were truly bonjwa status, he would have dominant records vs these players. but he does not, especially against his main competitors, jaedong and flash. in anticipation of the "but bisu's been destroying everyone for the past few months" argument, let's remind ourselves that a true bonjwa has a long period of dominance. if bisu continues his current trend for a few more months, then maybe he will be considered a bonjwa. but at this point in time? no
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On February 26 2009 12:39 erin[go]bragh wrote:
There's three right there in a five page thread. I personally don't give a damn about it, it's good for hype. But fact is you don't see me going to the Leta appreciation thread bashing him or his fans just because I think he's overrated. But I suppose that's just because I respect other SC fans, and considering this is such a small community, I'd rather get along with everyone rather than lump a group of people into a negative category just because I dislike the way they cheer for their favorite player.
That's a great sentiment. I respect you for thinking like that.
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On February 26 2009 16:09 brjdrb wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 15:49 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:39 brjdrb wrote:On February 26 2009 15:26 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. You are no doubt undescribe by word, not even human retardation. Your hatred toward a player is stronger then kryptonite. Wut a faggot, you triple post just so you can satisfy your own projectory of who's worthy to be a bonjwa, guess wut, we don't give a fuk wut u think. When those bonjwas were playing, who the fuck was actually competing at their level? Bisu, to be able to win MSL and GOMTVS2 with these kind of calibers around such as Jaedong, Flash, Jangbi, Stork, etc, are no doubt the most dominance player right now. What happen to Savior when the level of play increases? He simply got rolled over, drop into B-Team, wow, nice trait of a bonjwa don't you think? You, my friend, need to stop sucking Savior's dick. i think you need to take a chill pill. first of all, he didn't even mention savior, so idk where you came up with that. second, the view of bonjwa that he's advocating is one that's pretty generally accepted, in that a bonjwa is a player who is clearly on another level from all other players. bisu is not showing that sort of dominance. yes, he is pretty clearly the best overall protoss (though maybe not in all mu's), and one of the top players. is he clearly on another level from jaedong and flash and jangbi? no. that's all that fusion was saying. no need to flame him for it? Would you please point out an example of how to go beyond another level of players such as Jaedong and Flash and Jangbi? 100% Winrate? i will admit that that level of dominance is something that's not easily quantified. which is probably why it is so disputed. however, we can just look at his records vs some of the top players from the last year: vs jaedong: 1-3 vs flash: 4-6 vs leta: 1-1 vs jangbi: 6-3 vs stork: 5-2 vs forgg: 0-2 vs mind: 2-0 vs july: 2-1 vs luxury: 1-2 (from 02/25/08 - 02/25/09 in TLPD) the list goes on. yes, u can say i just chose random players, but i think we can both agree that those are some of the best players in the last year in starcraft. if bisu were truly bonjwa status, he would have dominant records vs these players. but he does not, especially against his main competitors, jaedong and flash. in anticipation of the "but bisu's been destroying everyone for the past few months" argument, let's remind ourselves that a true bonjwa has a long period of dominance. if bisu continues his current trend for a few more months, then maybe he will be considered a bonjwa. but at this point in time? no
How would you categorize Bisu and FirebatHero's record against Savior? Is it all about statistic? I certainly hope not..
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On February 26 2009 15:49 Aurioch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 15:39 brjdrb wrote:On February 26 2009 15:26 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. You are no doubt undescribe by word, not even human retardation. Your hatred toward a player is stronger then kryptonite. Wut a faggot, you triple post just so you can satisfy your own projectory of who's worthy to be a bonjwa, guess wut, we don't give a fuk wut u think. When those bonjwas were playing, who the fuck was actually competing at their level? Bisu, to be able to win MSL and GOMTVS2 with these kind of calibers around such as Jaedong, Flash, Jangbi, Stork, etc, are no doubt the most dominance player right now. What happen to Savior when the level of play increases? He simply got rolled over, drop into B-Team, wow, nice trait of a bonjwa don't you think? You, my friend, need to stop sucking Savior's dick. i think you need to take a chill pill. first of all, he didn't even mention savior, so idk where you came up with that. second, the view of bonjwa that he's advocating is one that's pretty generally accepted, in that a bonjwa is a player who is clearly on another level from all other players. bisu is not showing that sort of dominance. yes, he is pretty clearly the best overall protoss (though maybe not in all mu's), and one of the top players. is he clearly on another level from jaedong and flash and jangbi? no. that's all that fusion was saying. no need to flame him for it? Would you please point out an example of how to go beyond another level of players such as Jaedong and Flash and Jangbi? 100% Winrate?
Btw, one doesn't need to suck sAviOr's dick in order to think that Bisu's not bonjwa. I'm a huge Bisu fan but Bisu just doesn't have the same aura and dominance that the previous bonjwas had and my "fanboyism" isn't going to make me think he does. Bisu is damn good, but not a bonjwa. In this day and age, it'll be a rare sight to see a bonjwa emerge amongst such a good playing field.
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On February 26 2009 16:49 Aurioch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 16:09 brjdrb wrote:On February 26 2009 15:49 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:39 brjdrb wrote:On February 26 2009 15:26 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. You are no doubt undescribe by word, not even human retardation. Your hatred toward a player is stronger then kryptonite. Wut a faggot, you triple post just so you can satisfy your own projectory of who's worthy to be a bonjwa, guess wut, we don't give a fuk wut u think. When those bonjwas were playing, who the fuck was actually competing at their level? Bisu, to be able to win MSL and GOMTVS2 with these kind of calibers around such as Jaedong, Flash, Jangbi, Stork, etc, are no doubt the most dominance player right now. What happen to Savior when the level of play increases? He simply got rolled over, drop into B-Team, wow, nice trait of a bonjwa don't you think? You, my friend, need to stop sucking Savior's dick. i think you need to take a chill pill. first of all, he didn't even mention savior, so idk where you came up with that. second, the view of bonjwa that he's advocating is one that's pretty generally accepted, in that a bonjwa is a player who is clearly on another level from all other players. bisu is not showing that sort of dominance. yes, he is pretty clearly the best overall protoss (though maybe not in all mu's), and one of the top players. is he clearly on another level from jaedong and flash and jangbi? no. that's all that fusion was saying. no need to flame him for it? Would you please point out an example of how to go beyond another level of players such as Jaedong and Flash and Jangbi? 100% Winrate? i will admit that that level of dominance is something that's not easily quantified. which is probably why it is so disputed. however, we can just look at his records vs some of the top players from the last year: vs jaedong: 1-3 vs flash: 4-6 vs leta: 1-1 vs jangbi: 6-3 vs stork: 5-2 vs forgg: 0-2 vs mind: 2-0 vs july: 2-1 vs luxury: 1-2 (from 02/25/08 - 02/25/09 in TLPD) the list goes on. yes, u can say i just chose random players, but i think we can both agree that those are some of the best players in the last year in starcraft. if bisu were truly bonjwa status, he would have dominant records vs these players. but he does not, especially against his main competitors, jaedong and flash. in anticipation of the "but bisu's been destroying everyone for the past few months" argument, let's remind ourselves that a true bonjwa has a long period of dominance. if bisu continues his current trend for a few more months, then maybe he will be considered a bonjwa. but at this point in time? no How would you categorize Bisu and FirebatHero's record against Savior? Is it all about statistic? I certainly hope not..
it's not, and that's why i said that dominance is hard to quantify. that is merely my best attempt to statistically demonstrate that bisu is not dominant over jaedong, flash, and other players over the past year. while statistics can be a good indicator, they don't show what happened during the games (how close they were or how well the players performed). i think you have a misunderstanding concerning savior. nobody is suggesting (seriously at least) that savior is as dominant as he was during his reign. no bonjwa is as dominant as they were during their respective reign. that doesn't stop them from being a bonjwa.
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On February 26 2009 15:51 Mista wrote:
You guys can argue all day about if Bisu's gonna be the next Bonjwa or not but the cold hard truth is if he doesn't win this OSL noone will ever be Bonjwa. Players are now so skilled that it's hard for 1 guy to totally dominate the scene.
Agree 100%.
Every single Sport or eSport in the early ages has periods of domination but as time passes and skill level grows all-around it's really hard for one player/team to really stand-out.
Just take a look at Soccer: World Cups 40 years ago had teams that were completely unable to beat some of the most famous teams but nowadays "upsets" are just much more common.
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Bah, this discussion is pointless since bisu will get his ass kicked out of OSL soon anyway...
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Good work, thanks, but Phisu can suck balls.
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On February 26 2009 17:32 nttea wrote:
Bah, this discussion is pointless since bisu will get his ass kicked out of OSL soon anyway...
Party pooper
I hope Bisu proves that you're sorely wrong
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. To be fair fusionsdf; do you consider oov to be a bonjwa? Becuase July raped him silly prior to oovs OSL win. Namely in the Gillette semis (2-3) and in iTv - twice. So yea, Oov got manhandled by July quite regularly. Savior was held back by Chojja as well - namely how he got raped in CYON.
But all of that doesn't really matter. Once the Bonjwa enters Bonjwa mode (after winning their 3rd MSL until they win their OSL) there are no more players to hold them back. Prior to this they can lose games to weird people and the top tier, and can never truly be distinguished as the elite. However once in this stage nothing stands in their way - and Jaedong, nor Flash, are going to be able to stop Bisu.
EDIT: after reading further it does seem that you have ignored all of savior's "reign" until the last part of his reign. Remember that savior looked VERY mortal against Midas in the MSL semifinal as well - so much so that he should have lost the 4th game (but midas is the epic game 4 choke artist).
Oh and to all the people saying there will never be another bonjwa. Well, assuming SC doesn't die out, there will be another one. Who it will be I don't know; but what I do know is that people were saying there would be no more bonjwa's after Savior and look what we have here  .
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
this whole bonjwa yay, bonjwa nay, bonjwa blahblablah thing is starting to annoy me to no end -.-
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On February 26 2009 17:32 nttea wrote:
Bah, this discussion is pointless since bisu will get his ass kicked out of OSL soon anyway...
Yes yes, the end is near!
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Great read, I think if we end up with a Bisu v Jaedong finals for the Bonjwa title, it will be supremely epic.
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Thanks for the article. I think the epoch of the domination is not over yet so "go Bisu".
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1362 Posts
On February 26 2009 18:29 Carnac wrote:
this whole bonjwa yay, bonjwa nay, bonjwa blahblablah thing is starting to annoy me to no end -.-
Exactly,
Depends on how you interperate bonjwadom. Some people consider it a certain level of dominance for some arbitrary period of time. As much of a fanboy I am, I doubt bisu will ever meet this criteria. His play is inherently risky, it's the risk he is willing to take, and the subsequent pressure he is able to perform under that makes him so successful.
But with this inherent risk means he will drop games randomly, why? because thats what risk is. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't.
Some people interperate it as a certain number of titles, in which case he may very well eventually meet the criteria for.
In the end does it matter? There is no objective measure for being bonjwa, you can only express YOUR OPINION of what bonjwa is and whether or not he is one. But you are not the person who decides whether or not someone is bonjwa because they meet your arbitrary opnion on what makes bonjwa, noone cares what you think, history will eventually be the judge.
In the mean time why not just enjoy the excitement that his risky playstyle brings?
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China3334 Posts
On February 26 2009 10:18 Plexa wrote:Nevahhhh!! I'm an angry MBC fanboy. We spent 3 years raising this beast, and now SKT1 gets all the credit >.<. Besides, SKT uniforms look terrible, MBC looks elegant.
This! I miss MBC uniform so much T_T
And...sorry I don't ask for your credit but I love my signature 
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