EPT[OSL] Bisu's Destiny - Page 8
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Magic84
Russian Federation1381 Posts
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Myrkul
Croatia132 Posts
Anyway, July reinvented zerg in practically every matchup, was in three OSL finals(of which he took 2) in 1 year or so, and was ranked Kespa no.1 for 11 months straight. So if he isn't considered a bonjwa, then fuck me if bisu is. In conclusion i'll start calling him a bonjwa when the Koreans do. All that aside he's playing beastly lately, and for sure is the best toss of all time. | ||
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PIJAMA
Brazil137 Posts
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boxxyownz
United States103 Posts
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amorpheus
Bulgaria2144 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
On February 27 2009 06:30 Magic84 wrote: Dunno, i'm kind of sure Jaedong will crush him if they play right now or in the finals. GOM Showmatch could help Bisu a lot though as a preparation for possible finals. from watching the two play over the past few weeks, i think Bisu is definitely in a much better condition skills wise than Jaedong is. Jaedong is of course performing at an extremely high level, but Bisu has never been better his entire career. He's peaking right now. | ||
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Flamboyant
United States57 Posts
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OmegaFang
United States156 Posts
 Bisu’s recent five month dominance is not as impressive as  sAviOr’s one year dominance of the pro scene, because sAviOr was playing better for a year rather than five months like Bisu. However, I decided to compare stats and go off of number of games played over these time periods, instead of looking at their length in time because we know that in these days, progamers play many more games in now than they did back then. The monthly records were just how I broke it down. I was more focused on the overall records after these lengths of time. Breaking it down into months seemed to show how much more a month a progamer plays now than back then. Here is what I discovered:Bisu's monthly record since Oct 2008:Oct '08 - (10-3) 76.92% Nov '08 - (14-5) 73.68% Dec '08 - (7-1) 87.5% Jan '09 - (17-6) 73.91% Feb '09 - (17-5) 77.27% (SKT has one more match this month which he could play in) Bisu’s total record since Oct '08 - (65-20) 76.47%sAviOr’s monthly record from Apr 2006 until MSL Finals vs Bisu Apr ’06 – (1-0) 100% May ’06 – (6-2) 75% June ’06 – (7-5) 58.33% July ’06 – (7-1) 87.50% Aug ’06 – (1-0) 100% Sept ’06 – (5-1) 83.33% Oct ’06 – (2-1) 66.66% Nov ’06 – (11-3) 78.57% Dec ’06 – (3-2) 60.00% Jan ’07 – (7-2) 77.77% Feb ’07 – (12-5) 70.59% sAviOr’s total record - (62-22) 73.81%. sAviOr played 84 games total from Apr 2006 (graph shows this is the year he hit his peak) to March 2007 when Bisu beat him in the MSL Finals (sAviOr’s slump begins), compared to Bisu’s 85 games played over 5 months. So in half the time, Bisu has played just as many games as sAviOr did duing his prime and actually has a slightly better record. I was very surprised by these statistics and just thought would share them with everyone. I’ll let everyone form their own opinions about whether these stats are meaningful or not, but I just thought it was cool to look at and that others may enjoy this as well. | ||
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deathgod6
United States5064 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
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p4fn2w
383 Posts
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Myrkul
Croatia132 Posts
anyway, like i said, i dont think its about statistics, its about how everyone thinks u'll win whoever they put you up against. In savior's dominance, days, sure there were ppl who would say he would lose this game or that game just for the heck of it, but if you asked ppl who would they put a 1000$ on if they had to, i'm pretty sure you would have 95% of the people betting on Savior, no matter who he played against. The same goes for Boxer, oov and Nada in their respective primes. But like i said, you put bisu up against flash or jaedong and no way that you will get over 90% people saying bisu will win. | ||
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Myrkul
Croatia132 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka27136 Posts
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
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OmegaFang
United States156 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Like fusionsdf mentioned, I think people on this site have varying opinions on what a bonjwa is, whereas people on Korean communities more or less came to the conclusion that it's about complete domination over fellow progamers for a certain length of time more than anything else. Of course, since the phrase has no concrete definitition, maybe this is the beauty (or horror) of the whole thing. In my opinion, Bisu has already succeeded in being a protoss legend, but his relative superiority compared to his rivals is simply way too putrid to call him a bonjwa. "That only makes his domination more amazing than ever! He is doing so well with the likes of Flash and Jaedong competing with him! So that makes him bonjwa if he wins this OSL!" No. It may make him more amazing than ever, but it certainly does not make him bonjwa if you ask me. Flash and Bisu have commented multiple times that the current progaming scene has made things next to impossible for one player to be the absolute best (bonjwa), and will instead be satisfied with the title of being the greatest player ever. So argue for Bisu being the greatest protoss ever, the greatest player of the modern period or even perhaps potentially the greatest player ever, but people are always going to have an issue when you're calling him by far the best player in the scene (which is what bonjwa is) when there are players Bisu obviously is not the clear favourite against. Stork said this in an interview when asked about the overall his standing in the "TaeBengLeeSsang" quartet: "I feel that Bisu should be ranked first because of his overall accomplishments. Skillwise, Jaedong is the best in my opinion." When you ask players, fans, coaches, commentators and journalists on who the best player in the scene is currently (not who is the greatest overall player that is still performing at the top), I can assure you that Flash and Jaedong will get their share of votes, because, as great as Bisu is, he is not as dominant as the past bonjwas. "Oov lost against July, and Savior lost against Chojja, but people still called them the best. So Bisu is the best too!" Considering Oov had a shut-out victory against July just a few weeks after his crushing defeat against him on his way to winning two additional individual titles (not counting his 3-0 victory over July a year later here), there was still no question about who the best player in the scene was. July then overtook Oov as the best player in the scene with his performances during late 2004~mid 2005, but was not bonjwa because Go Rush and Nada were basically sharing the limelight with him. Savior lost against Chojja, but then went on to win three individual leagues, bettered him in the proleague, went undefeated against Chojja in all stages after his Cyon MSL defeat and basically became the undisputed number one player in the scene. As for the pattern that Bisu will complete if he wins this OSL. Take a look at a past post I made some time ago. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=85713¤tpage=3 It basically shows you how Bisu's trophies are more of an "overall achievement" thing, rather than "utter domination". Bisu failed to win 8 consecutive individual leagues in between his triumphs. Even if he wins the OSL this season, that's four individual league titles out of 13. Nada needed 5, Oov 6 and Savior 9. I personally think it's a stretch to even elongated Savior's "reign" all the way back to his first MSL win, but it irks me to see people try to dig up Bisu's season 2006 accomplishments (his first MSL win) in order to establish his being bonjwa "now". It's not as if Bisu was good all the way through. He sucked ass in early 2008, having a sub-fifty winning rate and dropping out of individual leagues at the earliest stages. Bisu is regarded as the best because of his recent triumphs, and his past achievements make him a greater player, but more dominant? I don't think so. Bisu currently has: 1. One MSL victory (same number as anyone in recent days) 2. One Gom league victory (one "major" event league victory) 3. Respectable performances in the Proleague 4. Sky soaring winning percentages That's fantastic. Let's see if he can build up from here. Then we can talk. Remember how Jaedong sweeped the OSL, MSL and the Proleague within the space of three months? That was the closest thing to "bonjwa level" domination we've had post-Savior era in my opinion. If Bisu manages to win back-to-back individual leagues like Jaedong did, sustain his Proleague performances, then we're going somewhere. If not, let's not make such a fuss because his one MSL triumph added with his other trophies 9 individual leagues before "adds up" well. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
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Myrkul
Croatia132 Posts
The criteria: 1. You have to be considered a dominant player in your time, you have to have done something in your gaming career which distinguishes you from everyone else, preferably bring something new to the game, and therefore influence the meta-game, 2. During your prime, which has to last atleast 10 months or 80 played games you have to have a over 70% win record, and be over 60% in all individual race matchups(vt,vz,vp). Slayers_Boxer Still holding the Kespa ranked #1 all-time record with 17 months straight, probably the most influential gamer ever, single-handedly bringing terran from the title of being the inferior race in sc, to being the strongest, practically inventing micro, etc, etc, etc. There is no doubt about Boxer satisfying the first criteria. As for the second, boxer went 31-9 (77.5% win rate) from 2001-02-16 to 2001-12-27- where he lost to Garimto in his 3. consecutive OSL finals (which BTW if you have read Boxer's autobiography you will see that Boxer should have taken, because Boxer focused the majority of his time preparing for the map Incubus which was to be played in the first and last sets. He came up with a build that focused on sending an early tank with a dropship in a small space between a ledge and some minerals, which could then deny Garimto's 1st exp with only that tank, and later it turned out that the version of the map that was played in the finals was different from the version that Kespa gave boxer to practice on in the sense that you couldn't fit a tank in that position anymore, and since he only practiced that build on that map he lost both times on it which cost him the Golden mouse). And i think it should be mentioned that the WCG is not in the TLPD stats, but i think it's worth mentioning in this period because the difference in skill between Koreans and the rest of the world in that time were very small to nonexistant. If you add the stats of the 2001 WCG where Boxer beat Elky in the finals his win rate goes up to over 80% in that 10month period Even without his legendary status, Boxer passes the bonjwa test with flying colors. Nada What can there be said about this guy other then WOW! He has an all-time win/loss ratio of 59.58% and he's been around since 2002! He has played by far the largest amount of televized games :621 (W 370-L 251( in comparison Boxer's all time ratio is 253-206(55.12%))), owner of 6 starleague GOLDS, statistically the best player to have ever played this wonderful game. Nada went 58-24 from 2002-02-14 to 2003-01-14 (70.73%) iloveoov 1.Boxer's protege, an extremely skilled player who took the Terran torch from Nada, very dominant in his time, and very well known for his "Cheater" style with which he showed everyone the importance of macro. 2.oov went 77-26 (74,76%) from 2003-07 to 2004-07( before he got manhandled by July for the first time in the gillete OSL) Julyzerg 1.July came on the radar in the 2004 Gillete OSL which he won (against Xellos in the quarters, oov in semis and Reach in the finals who took out Yellow in the other semis; (jesus christ now that was a tournament! talk about a royal roader!) He revolutionazed zerg play primarily by incorporating the muta-stack trick and with other tactics as well, he was Kespa ranked #1 for 11 months from April 2005( when he de-throned oov) to february 2006, and eventually won the Golden mouse. 2.Unfortunately while imo July passes the first criteria, he never had a 70% win record for more than a month or so, and he was always below 60% win rate either vz or vt so ultimately he flunks the bonjwa test (tears are falling on the keyboard as i write this) Savior 1.Everybody remembers the Maestro era, unstoppable heavy-macro style, defilers... 2. Savior went 62-22 (73.81%)from 04-2006 to 02-2007 not really much more to say, he is a bonjwa all right Flash 1.I put him in contention because in his dominant period people thought that he symbolises the end of the starcraft meta-game evolution. He was just a machine that just ate you up, and afterwards you couldn't really say what you did wrong, he played.. well.. perfectly. 2.Unfortunately, like July, Flash has never had a period of 10 months or 80 games in which he went over 70% win rate. Bisu 1.People today seem to think he is bonjwa material, revolutionized pvz, the famous Savior beatdown in the MSL finals... 2.Bisu went 65-20 (76.47%)since 2008-10 Using only these criteria Bisu would join the bonjwa club, however there is one more thing that all 4 of the recognized bonjwa's had and which i think is a very big part of it like Letmelose emphasized, and that is starleague titles. 3. criteria: During his period of dominance, a bonjwa has to win atleast 4 major starleague titles. In Boxer's 10 months dominance period he won 2 OSL's, 1 MSL, and the 2001 WCG which by all means should be taken into account as competition was atleast as tough as his first OSL( in Boxer's biography he states that his biggest challenge in up to that point was the WCG) and also i dont think any Koreans except Boxer ended up in the first five spots back then. Nada won 3MSL's and 2 OSL's from 2002-02-14 to 2003-04-06 with (70.69% win rate). Oov got 3 MSL's and a OSL in his dominant time ( of which the duration is stated above) Savior also had 3 MSL's and a OSL in his b4 mentioned time On the other hand Bisu only has an MSL and the Gomtv season 2 under his belt in his „peak“ time, so he fails the third criteria. In conclusion, Bisu already has 4 major league titles altogether, so if he took this OSL, beat Jaedong convincingly in the Gomtv event, and kept his win percentage higher than 70% for a month or two more, i wouldnt have any serious objection to him being considered bonjwa. But lets say he manages to take this OSL and the next OSL or MSL. He would then be in competition for the best player ever (with Nada) with 6 major league titles, and over 70% win ratio in about 100 games played, imo he's the last one who has a chance to do something simillar. Anyway lets not get ahead of ourselves, Bisu has the potential but he is definetly not there yet. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
However, Bisu is #1 world #1 protoss #1 protoss all time right now. So... what more you want him to be? I think Bisu would laugh at this because its pointless. He is the best right now. That's what matters - not some word. He makes the money, he is in the spotlight, hell - he's playing even better than Jaedong and Flash atm (for the first one it might change tomorrow). I don't care if he's a bonjwa a weedsmoker an asshole or whatever u want him to be as long as he keeps on entertaining & amazing me so much with his play. | ||
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