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[OSL] Bisu's Destiny
February 25th, 2009 15:07 GMT
Banner thanks to zXk3
Batoo OSL Week 3
The final week of play in the OSL is invariably a tense one. For the majority of the players this week, every game was a must win. There were four notable exceptions to this of course; Bisu and Jaedong were virtually through to the Round of 8, while GGPlay and Tester were virtually out of the OSL. Unfortunately, the quality of the games did not live up to standard and there was only one or two really decent games this week. The vast majority were average to sub-par.
Group A
Group A had an interesting scenario this week. No player could be sure of his fortune; although Bisu could be content knowing that the worst he could do is have to play for his spot in tie-breakers. July was in a must win position against Stork, seeing as he had already lost to Bisu and Yarnc. July played amazingly against Bisu and the smart money had him taking Stork - and indeed he did. July opened with a 4 hatch/lair hydra pressure build which seamlessly integrated Mutalisks. Stork had no answer for this, and could barely fend off the pressure with his Zealots and by the time Mutas had arrived Stork had no effective anti-air. It was all over very quickly, in rather boring fashion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ_3Gn83h8Y
With July's victory, Bisu was assured a spot in the Round of 8. However, whether he advanced as A1 or A2 was still up in the air. That would be decided in the second game of the week - Bisu vs Yarnc. There was very little pressure on the players in this game, well, at least compared to the other games this week. This was because neither player was out if they lost - Bisu was still going to the Ro8 and Yarnc would have to go to Tie-Breakers.
The resulting game reflected the lack of pressure. Bisu opened with 1 gate play - for those of you who don't remember Bisu stated that it's impossible to win against Zerg nowadays using 1 gate play - and Yarnc opened up with an all-in Muta/Lurker opening. Yarnc's entire strategy revolved around being able to inflict enough damage on Bisu's natural to give him time to expand and pump hydralisks. Bisu, however, was on the ball as usual and was able to shut down Yarnc with relative ease - losing minimal probes. The game from there was all Bisu - his storming was perfect and his decision making immaculate. Yarnc really stood no chance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8c6KZN2_Cc
With regular group play now over; Bisu advances as A1 with a perfect 3-0 score, while Yarnc, July and Stork will have to battle it out in tiebreakers for their right to be in the Round of 8. In my humble opinion, I think Yarnc has got what it takes to win. His game against Stork was so abysmally bad and can't be a true reflection of his skill. He should be able to beat July again, and hence advance easily. July has a chance to advance as well; Stork should be easy enough to kill, while ZvZ is always a tossup. What is certain though, is that Stork is going to be going 0-2. I say Yarnc will advance with 75% certainty, with 25% certainty that July will advance.
Group B
Group B was similar to Group A in that everything was essentially up in air, just reversed. By that I mean instead of Bisu being almost sure of advancing, we have Tester who was almost sure of failing. To start off the week, we had Leta vs Tester - a match doomed to mediocrity. There was hope amongst the very few Tester fans that he would be able to overcome Leta on Medusa, given the horrid imbalance. However, that did not transpire. Leta dominated Tester with dropships and high pressure play. The pressure was so great that Tester started to implode and failed to perform even the most basic of tasks to an adequate level, for instance; his micro was absolutely horrid towards the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcDDwcVCR88
With Tester now eliminated for good, Leta had to wait and see what the other game of the week had in store. For his 2-1 was not good enough to ensure him a place in the Round of 8; however the worst result for him would be a tie-break situation - which isn't exactly too bad when you're one of the strongest players in the tournament. And thus, by.hero and fantasy stepped up to the plate to determine the fate of the group.
It is amazing how far fantasy has fallen since his epic series win over GGPlay. This game was absolutely abhorrent on his behalf. By.hero went for a quick 2 hatch muta build which completely took fantasy by surprise. By.hero's micro destroyed fantasy very easily. Alas, with by.hero's victory we can look forward to another set of tiebreakers to occur on Friday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HtUu36wY70
What that means is that we have a 3 way tie for first. So how do we resolve it? We play more tiebreakers! However, two players advance this time instead of one hence all you need to do is win one game and you're safe. The player who goes 2-0 will advance as B1 and the player who goes 1-1 will advance as B2. After fantasy's terrible performance against by.hero, I think by.hero is a safe bet to make it through; if for no reason other than I don't see fantasy beating him in the near future. Leta should take B1 seeing as his TvT is so good, and he is finally finding his feet once again after defeating Flash in the MSL.
Group C
Group C had the heartbreaking situation of "win and in". It is a rare event which always produces disappointing results. The last one I can recall was Group D of Bacchus OSL where Bisu lost to Backho - and hence was eliminated from the OSL. Thus only one of UpMagic/Hwasin and Flash/Best would advance to the Round of 8. So who made it through? Well the first game of the week was Flash vs Best on Tears of the Moon. Now Tears is statistically T>P and with Flash's recent form, this game looked like a shoe-in for him. Things looked so good for Flash as he forced Best to cancel his natural Nexus and gained a sizable lead because of it - but then things went sour, as they did in the MSL a few nights later.
Best somehow was able to comeback and defeat Flash. It was am impressive victory, a shocking victory, a satisfying victory. Indeed, in my opinion this was the game of the week - a heartbreaking game for Flash fans, but an unbelievable miracle for Best fans. As a member of both camps, I loved this game - so definitely check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgMxEDdLWFg
The other game of the week wasn't quite as spectacular. Hwasin opened with a 1 Factory CC build while UpMagic went for a 1 Factory Starport build and went heavy wraith. Hwasin was able to defend off UpMagic's wraith play with relative ease and thus, with a sizable economic advantage, took the game and advanced into the Round of 8.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_17uHJW6zxk
So Group C is nicely settled, despite the many broken hearts out there. Hwasin advances as C1 and Best as C2. Hwasin advances as C1 because he defeated Best in week 1, hence gets ranked above Best despite the equal score.
Group D
Jaedong could sit up on his perch and feel content knowing that he was immune from elimination this week. Because GGplay was 0-2, there was no possibility of any player over taking him. Jaedong advances as D1. So then, who would take up the other spot? Well it was a win-and-in situation for Kal and Luxury as they took to the battlefield, both being 1-1. Kal decided that he was vastly superior to Luxury and tried to cannon rush Luxury. The cannon rush just failed, but after it failed Kal was helpless. Luxury tore him to shreds; first with Zerglings, and then with Mutalisks. As a result, Luxury will be joining Jaedong in the Round of 8.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNi0WL00E38
And then came the one game which didn't matter in the whole group stage - Jaedong vs GGplay. Neither player looked too interested in this game, and Jaedong was easily run over by a blob of Zerglings. Oh well, at least this game didn't matter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaskACVP65Q
And thus, Group D also wraps up nicely. Jaedong advances as the undisputed champion of the group and is rewarded with the D1 position, while Luxury advances as D2.
Bisu's OSL?
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/State/bisu.png)
The path of a Bonjwa has been well established by the 3 former Bonjwa - Nada, Oov and Savior. Of course Boxer is considered a Bonjwa, but never walked the path of one. The path of a Bonjwa is to win 3 MSLs then win the OSL immediately after the third MSL. For Nada, this was the 2nd, 3rd and 4th KPGA Tours followed by Panasonic OSL. In Panasonic he overcame Chojja, one of Nada's rivals at the time. For iloveoov, this was Trigem, Cengame and SPRIS MSLs followed by EVER2004 OSL where he squared off against his master and mentor, Boxer, in the finals. For Savior, it was UZOO, Pringles 1 and Pringles 2 MSLs followed by Shinhan S3 OSL where he overcame long time rival, Nada, in the final.
Bisu looked set to follow the path of a Bonjwa - that was until Mind halted his progress in GOMTV S3 MSL. Bisu was then delayed until last season, where he was finally able to win that elusive 3rd MSL title. After winning his third title, he entered Bonjwa-mode, and has been destroying everything without mercy since. Everything looked good for Bisu until by.hero eliminated him from the OSL, and the Bonjwa theory came crashing down. The Gods of Brood War took note of this, and realized their mistake. They took out the least valuable player from the OSL via physical injury (hi Backho) and gave Bisu another shot at the OSL - and indeed, Bisu advanced into the OSL just as fate intended.
This OSL is Bisu's to win, and the fanboys aren't going to shut up about it all season (and that's going to annoy the hell out of me). Judging by how a number of Bisu's biggest obstacles have already been overcome (July, Stork) and another has already been taken out for him (Flash) this should really be an easy run for the God-Mode Protoss. But also note how each bonjwa made their triumphant OSL win - over long time rivals. Who else is left in this OSL to create such an epic final? Jaedong is. I haven't seen the bracket yet, but I have a feeling A1 and D1 are placed on the opposite sides of the bracket, hence the possibility of a Jaedong vs Bisu final is quite a real possibility.
If fate and fortune have anything to do with the OSL, this OSL is going to be one of the most epic OSLs in history with amazing games and an even more epic final that will be remembered for years to come. Indeed, the final is set up to be Bisu vs Jaedong - and should Bisu win, he can rightfully claim the title as the fourth Bonjwa. I don't know about you, but I'm overly excited to see what this OSL beholds for our dear Bisu.
It is Bisu's destiny to win Batoo OSL.
 Plexa
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Braavos36374 Posts
I think Jaedong and Bisu are set to meet for the semifinals, at least according to the old way they've done things. Hopefully they switch it up, but I doubt it.
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Plexa never disappoints...
nice writeup 
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 26 2009 01:16 Hot_Bid wrote:
I think Jaedong and Bisu are set to meet for the semifinals, at least according to the old way they've done things. Hopefully they switch it up, but I doubt it.
I *think* its [ A1 v D2, C1 v B2 ] [ B1 v C2, D1 v A2 ] but yea.. not 100% sure, OSL brackets are weird
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by.hero will eliminate Bisu again Ro8
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Nice writeup!
Gogo Bisu! 
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im SO looking forward to this, great writeup as always plexa 
edit: wrong SL lol
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A final between JD/Bisu would be a good spectacle. Although in the end, all that matters is whoever makes it to the final makes it as entertaining as possible.
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Braavos36374 Posts
On February 26 2009 01:20 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 01:16 Hot_Bid wrote:
I think Jaedong and Bisu are set to meet for the semifinals, at least according to the old way they've done things. Hopefully they switch it up, but I doubt it. I *think* its [ A1 v D2, C1 v B2 ] [ B1 v C2, D1 v A2 ] but yea.. not 100% sure, OSL brackets are weird
Here's to hoping you are right.
Incruit OSL [ A1 v B2, C1 v D2 ] [ B1 v C2, D1 v A2 ]
Ever08 OSL [ A1 v C2, B1 v D2 ] [ C1 v A2, D1 v B2 ]
Bacchus OSL [ A1 v B2, D1 v C2 ] [ C1 v D2, B1 v A2 ]
If they follow Incruit or Ever, JD and Bisu will be on opposite sides, but if they go back to the way Bacchus did it, then they will be on the same side. They switch it up a lot though so who knows what they will do this time.
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Most of this article is really good but I really disapprove of the following statement:
The Gods of Brood War took note of this, and realized their mistake. They took out the least valuable player from the OSL via physical injury (hi Backho) and gave Bisu another shot at the OSL - and indeed, Bisu advanced into the OSL just as fate intended.
Backho would have made this OSL so much more fun, especially if he had been the one to beat stork again.
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It is his destiny, yes... but will he seize his destiny, or allow it to slip through his fingers once again? Go ninjaToss!
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im hopin by.hero rapes bisu
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On February 26 2009 01:48 deathgodtoss wrote:
im hopin by.hero rapes bisu
no way
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excellent post, most entertaining ^^ thx
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United States12607 Posts
Thanks for the article Plexa - I agree, Bisu's place in this OSL does seem like fate.
I'm positive there will be people who deny his Bonjwa status even once he wins this tournament, however.
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On February 26 2009 01:25 Ideas wrote:by.hero will eliminate Bisu again Ro8
Haha I would actually feel really bad for Bisu if that were to happen.
Awesome writeup by the way. I had been looking for something to put me up to speed on the OSL.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 26 2009 01:20 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 01:16 Hot_Bid wrote:
I think Jaedong and Bisu are set to meet for the semifinals, at least according to the old way they've done things. Hopefully they switch it up, but I doubt it. I *think* its [ A1 v D2, C1 v B2 ] [ B1 v C2, D1 v A2 ] but yea.. not 100% sure, OSL brackets are weird
I think they randomize the bracket a little bit so that people don't deliberately throw games to avoid players. It would explain why the OSL brackets aren't the same each season.
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On February 26 2009 01:43 Zinbiel wrote:
Most of this article is really good but I really disapprove of the following statement:
The Gods of Brood War took note of this, and realized their mistake. They took out the least valuable player from the OSL via physical injury (hi Backho) and gave Bisu another shot at the OSL - and indeed, Bisu advanced into the OSL just as fate intended.
Backho would have made this OSL so much more fun, especially if he had been the one to beat stork again.
I agree. Backho was doing quite well prior to his injury having made it into both the OSL and the Gom S2 round of 8. I always have liked Backho and was excited to see him at the brink of success. It is such a sad situation because he will take a lot of time to get back in form and might never regain the micro and game sense he was displaying just before his back crapped out on him.
I had a dream last night where Backho's first game back was in a 2v2 with JD against SKT. It was a good dream.
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Because Flash is no longer in, I have nothing against Bisu this OSL.
Amazing write-up Plexa, as usual. You actually got me hyped for Bisu, that's a first(:
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16957 Posts
"The Gods of Brood War took note of this, and realized their mistake. They took out the least valuable player from the OSL via physical injury (hi Backho) and gave Bisu another shot at the OSL - and indeed, Bisu advanced into the OSL just as fate intended."
Haha I love Plexa
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Plexa <3
Bisu will show them who is the No.1 by beating Jaedong 3 times in a row. Go Bisu ! This OSL is yours , take it !
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ugh I can't stand bisu. or his fanboys.
let's just pretend the GOM S2 was his fourth win and move on with it. And I don't think he'd beat JD on these maps anyawy
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Let's hope Bisu meets by.hero
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I'm pretty sure Bisu and Jaedong would end up on opposite ends of the bracket. I remember Hot Bid saying that if Bisu had ended up as A2, he would face Jaedong in Ro8. Since he qualified as A1, he should be on the other leg (fantasy and stork qualified from the same group in Incruit)
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nice write up, and ye, this osl is bisu's!
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Just to note it was 2hatch muta by by.hero vs fantasy and not 3hatch
Very good writeup, and i really enjoy when you guys recommend games.
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Here's hoping Bisu get's knocked out next round. Cheers!
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Jaedong vs Bisu Finals would make me cream my pants
But yeah, Bisu deserves this OSL, he needs to be called bonjwa as soon as possible because he's already won 3 MSLs and 1 Gom. He just needs 1 OSL
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I wonder how much will the Korean public perception of Bisu change if he wins the Osl... will they actually start calling him bonjwa? If he keeps his current form, and wins this league, he will deserve it imo
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Especially considering that he will most likely be the last bonjwa
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Come on July/Bisu/By.hero/Jaedong ro4.
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I'm gonna be cheering for both  Jaedong and  Bisu until finals
Then it's Go Bisu time
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Can't wait to see Bisu getting his own ass handed to him by Jaedong. Twice.
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United States17042 Posts
I"m so ready for jd vs bisu finals. And I hope that JD can win and shut up the bisu bonjwa fanboys -_-;; (only because they're so annoying, not because I have anything against bisu)
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i would say bisu is the favorite for sure...
i'm still pullin for JD!
and OMG i hate Best so much it makes me sick.. grrr
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BISU JAEDONG FINALS PLEASSSEEE!!
Bisu FTW, Bisu FTB (for the bonjwa).
BISU <3
Great write-up [:
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really enjoyed reading it!!
but I'd consider Tester as the least valuable player..
now matter what: Bisu ftw!!
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On February 26 2009 02:01 Hammy wrote:Haha I would actually feel really bad for Bisu if that were to happen. Awesome writeup by the way. I had been looking for something to put me up to speed on the OSL.
I would feel terribly bad for by.hero if he would made it that far and then get kicked out by the guy he allready has beaten...
That would be just harsh...
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Bisu is on SKT1.
Get over it.
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great writeup, but you're just throwing gasoline on a fire that's already out of control (bisu fanboyism). though i would love to see a jaedong vs bisu finals. or bisu vs best
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Leta vs Bisu finals.
3:1 Leta
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Best or July would make awesome finals against Bisu.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 26 2009 04:40 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
I"m so ready for jd vs bisu finals. And I hope that JD can win and shut up the bisu bonjwa fanboys -_-;; (only because they're so annoying, not because I have anything against bisu)
IMO Bisu-haters are a lot more out of control than Bisu fanboys.
Of course, that just means Bisu has the most out of control fanboys and the most out of control haters.
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On February 26 2009 05:28 brjdrb wrote:
great writeup, but you're just throwing gasoline on a fire that's already out of control (bisu fanboyism). though i would love to see a jaedong vs bisu finals. or bisu vs best
The only thing that can be compared to fire is anti-fanboyism
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<3 your write up Plexa!
thank you
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agreed, hoping for jd/bisu final too
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There is no Starcraft God, unless they are working in Bisu's favor.
He previously fucked out 0-2 in Ro32.
If it wasnt for BackHo's injury, Bisu wouldnt achieve any of these glory and ELO scores.
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Jaedong vs. Bisu finals would bring forth unfathomable levels of hype. Let's just hope the bracket allows for it.
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"They took out the least valuable player from the OSL via physical injury (hi Backho)"
The fact that Tester was allowed to stay is a deciding point against BW gods, IMO
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On February 26 2009 06:32 huameng wrote:
"They took out the least valuable player from the OSL via physical injury (hi Backho)"
The fact that Tester was allowed to stay is a deciding point against BW gods, IMO
They are testing your faith.
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Amazing writeup Plexa
once again you never cease to impress
but i do agree~
Jaedong vs Bisu OSL finals would probably cause the universe to collapse
Bisu bisu bisuuu
this is his time
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I'm gonna laugh so hard if BeSt knocks Bisu out of the OSL
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On February 26 2009 06:54 Nytefish wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 06:32 huameng wrote:
"They took out the least valuable player from the OSL via physical injury (hi Backho)"
The fact that Tester was allowed to stay is a deciding point against BW gods, IMO They are testing your faith.
haha lol so true
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"Bisu's Destiny"
Excuse my while I go throw up.
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If Bisu wins this OSL I wonder if he will continue to dominate or if he will finally fade away into the abyss like so many people have.
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Awesome article, loled hard on the "(Hi BackHo)"
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It's his destiny indeed. The BW Gods realized that there exists no Protoss Bonjwa and that there is something fundamentally wrong with it given the perfectly balanced asymmetry of SC, here we come Bisu!
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Baa?21242 Posts
If Bisu wins I'll cry D:
Jaedong or July for OSL champion is what I'm rooting for ^^
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JINX JINX JINX
damn you plexa, you clever bastard
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While I agree that Bisu is one heck of a player, probably one of the best of all time, this OSL isn't a sure shot as there are still some great players left.
July/Stork, Leta, Best and especially Jaedong are monsters.
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Great write up! Really looking forward to the rest of this OSL, and the promise of a Bisu vs. Jaedong finals is amazing.
On February 26 2009 05:28 brjdrb wrote:
great writeup, but you're just throwing gasoline on a fire that's already out of control (bisu fanboyism). though i would love to see a jaedong vs bisu finals. or bisu vs best
If you ask me, bisu haters are the ones who are out of control. Nowadays hating on Bisu (or more so, his fans) is much more of a bandwagon than Bisu fanboyism was. Most LR threads I read involving Bisu matches contains the usual "Go Bisu!" "Yay Bisu!" ect. ect, same as you'd see from any other fan of any other player. What's more annoying is seeing "OMG LOL BISU FANBOIYS SO ANNOYING" for the next couple pages.
Granted you do get annoying ones every once in a while. But any player doing as well as KTY right now is going to get pumped up fans who act a little over the top sometimes. People just need to get over it.
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IMO Bisu is the favorite vs Jaedong, so I think Bonjwa is possible for him. If you take a look at the other thread regarding "The Bonjwa story" the trend seems to be repeating itself, especially since he got denied so early in Lost Saga and magically comes back in OSL due to Batoo OSL. Fate sure has a way of making things work. Yes there are more skilled players around these days, but Bisu has shown that he is still improving and fixing his mistakes and once OSL finishes and beats Leta, Jaedong, Best etc. he'll begin to slowly lose his power as being the favorite by getting beaten by Leta (who was also born in November) in a cosistent basis
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On February 26 2009 07:19 Trezeguet23 wrote:
"Bisu's Destiny"
Excuse my while I go throw up.
Yep, I'd say it's almost as annoying as the rabid fanboysm
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reminds me of when Nal_ra got into the finals of the MSL (i think) after being eliminated by winning the wildcard tournament or w/e it was called. Did he win that league? my memory is really hazy
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SKT1 vs. CJ
+ Show Spoiler +Bisu needs to step up his WL performance and not walk his army into mines if he wants to be a Bonjwa
Here's hoping to Bisu and winning his OSL. Cheers!
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lol Bisu's Destiny??
Bisu is gonna get his face stomped by by.hero or Leta and then fall into a slump until we all forget he was any good
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We get a GomTV intel Classic Bisu vs. Jaedong match on March 1st anyway. That should give some insight. I think it's bo5.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 26 2009 05:28 Qwertify wrote:
Bisu is on SKT1.
Get over it. Nevahhhh!! I'm an angry MBC fanboy. We spent 3 years raising this beast, and now SKT1 gets all the credit >.<. Besides, SKT uniforms look terrible, MBC looks elegant.
On February 26 2009 06:32 huameng wrote:
"They took out the least valuable player from the OSL via physical injury (hi Backho)"
The fact that Tester was allowed to stay is a deciding point against BW gods, IMO
Tester will never get another shot at the OSL - after a long career of doing shit all, it's about time he made an OSL before he retired. Because really, Tester's retirement shouldn't be too far off.
On February 26 2009 07:21 Dgtl wrote:
If Bisu wins this OSL I wonder if he will continue to dominate or if he will finally fade away into the abyss like so many people have.
He will fade. Next season he will look mortal and get eliminated early on. He may come back and win another SL like oov did (i doubt it), but really, he will never attain the level of perfection he has at the moment.
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A second Jaedong vs Bisu final would be so epic it gives me chills just thinkin of it.
(Edit: Well this showmatch isnt really a final, but its almost like it)
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It is Bisu's destiny to win Batoo OSL.
Eww I hope not.
Here's to hoping Jaedong runs over him like he should.
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On February 26 2009 03:34 neliel wrote:Just to note it was 2hatch muta by by.hero vs fantasy and not 3hatch Very good writeup, and i really enjoy when you guys recommend games.
He took gas before the 2nd hatch too
Mutas before 6 minutes @_@
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I love Bisu vs Jaedong games. No zerg macros like Jaedong, and no protoss micros like Bisu. The two have given us some of the best PvZ games in SC history. Bisu v Jaedong finals yes please.
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On February 26 2009 08:16 erin[go]bragh wrote:Great write up! Really looking forward to the rest of this OSL, and the promise of a Bisu vs. Jaedong finals is amazing. Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 05:28 brjdrb wrote:
great writeup, but you're just throwing gasoline on a fire that's already out of control (bisu fanboyism). though i would love to see a jaedong vs bisu finals. or bisu vs best If you ask me, bisu haters are the ones who are out of control. Nowadays hating on Bisu (or more so, his fans) is much more of a bandwagon than Bisu fanboyism was. Most LR threads I read involving Bisu matches contains the usual "Go Bisu!" "Yay Bisu!" ect. ect, same as you'd see from any other fan of any other player. What's more annoying is seeing "OMG LOL BISU FANBOIYS SO ANNOYING" for the next couple pages. Granted you do get annoying ones every once in a while. But any player doing as well as KTY right now is going to get pumped up fans who act a little over the top sometimes. People just need to get over it.
I haven't seen that recently, could you cite some examples to support your assertion?
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On February 26 2009 11:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 08:16 erin[go]bragh wrote:Great write up! Really looking forward to the rest of this OSL, and the promise of a Bisu vs. Jaedong finals is amazing. On February 26 2009 05:28 brjdrb wrote:
great writeup, but you're just throwing gasoline on a fire that's already out of control (bisu fanboyism). though i would love to see a jaedong vs bisu finals. or bisu vs best If you ask me, bisu haters are the ones who are out of control. Nowadays hating on Bisu (or more so, his fans) is much more of a bandwagon than Bisu fanboyism was. Most LR threads I read involving Bisu matches contains the usual "Go Bisu!" "Yay Bisu!" ect. ect, same as you'd see from any other fan of any other player. What's more annoying is seeing "OMG LOL BISU FANBOIYS SO ANNOYING" for the next couple pages. Granted you do get annoying ones every once in a while. But any player doing as well as KTY right now is going to get pumped up fans who act a little over the top sometimes. People just need to get over it. I haven't seen that recently, could you cite some examples to support your assertion?
Come on IRC and feeel the hate.
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On February 26 2009 11:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 08:16 erin[go]bragh wrote:Great write up! Really looking forward to the rest of this OSL, and the promise of a Bisu vs. Jaedong finals is amazing. On February 26 2009 05:28 brjdrb wrote:
great writeup, but you're just throwing gasoline on a fire that's already out of control (bisu fanboyism). though i would love to see a jaedong vs bisu finals. or bisu vs best If you ask me, bisu haters are the ones who are out of control. Nowadays hating on Bisu (or more so, his fans) is much more of a bandwagon than Bisu fanboyism was. Most LR threads I read involving Bisu matches contains the usual "Go Bisu!" "Yay Bisu!" ect. ect, same as you'd see from any other fan of any other player. What's more annoying is seeing "OMG LOL BISU FANBOIYS SO ANNOYING" for the next couple pages. Granted you do get annoying ones every once in a while. But any player doing as well as KTY right now is going to get pumped up fans who act a little over the top sometimes. People just need to get over it. I haven't seen that recently, could you cite some examples to support your assertion?
Are you being serious? Or are you just being a devil's advocate?
In case of the latter, I'm going to spare myself the boredom of drudging through live report threads and instead take a look at this one.
On February 26 2009 03:00 Sunyveil wrote:
ugh I can't stand bisu. or his fanboys.
let's just pretend the GOM S2 was his fourth win and move on with it. And I don't think he'd beat JD on these maps anyawy
On February 26 2009 04:40 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
I"m so ready for jd vs bisu finals. And I hope that JD can win and shut up the bisu bonjwa fanboys -_-;; (only because they're so annoying, not because I have anything against bisu)
On February 26 2009 07:19 Trezeguet23 wrote:
"Bisu's Destiny"
Excuse my while I go throw up.
There's three right there in a five page thread. I personally don't give a damn about it, it's good for hype. But fact is you don't see me going to the Leta appreciation thread bashing him or his fans just because I think he's overrated. But I suppose that's just because I respect other SC fans, and considering this is such a small community, I'd rather get along with everyone rather than lump a group of people into a negative category just because I dislike the way they cheer for their favorite player.
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konadora
Singapore66153 Posts
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Bisu vs Jaedong, that would be sick!
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Braavos36374 Posts
On February 26 2009 12:39 erin[go]bragh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 11:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:On February 26 2009 08:16 erin[go]bragh wrote:Great write up! Really looking forward to the rest of this OSL, and the promise of a Bisu vs. Jaedong finals is amazing. On February 26 2009 05:28 brjdrb wrote:
great writeup, but you're just throwing gasoline on a fire that's already out of control (bisu fanboyism). though i would love to see a jaedong vs bisu finals. or bisu vs best If you ask me, bisu haters are the ones who are out of control. Nowadays hating on Bisu (or more so, his fans) is much more of a bandwagon than Bisu fanboyism was. Most LR threads I read involving Bisu matches contains the usual "Go Bisu!" "Yay Bisu!" ect. ect, same as you'd see from any other fan of any other player. What's more annoying is seeing "OMG LOL BISU FANBOIYS SO ANNOYING" for the next couple pages. Granted you do get annoying ones every once in a while. But any player doing as well as KTY right now is going to get pumped up fans who act a little over the top sometimes. People just need to get over it. I haven't seen that recently, could you cite some examples to support your assertion? Are you being serious? Or are you just being a devil's advocate? In case of the latter, I'm going to spare myself the boredom of drudging through live report threads and instead take a look at this one. Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 03:00 Sunyveil wrote:
ugh I can't stand bisu. or his fanboys.
let's just pretend the GOM S2 was his fourth win and move on with it. And I don't think he'd beat JD on these maps anyawy Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 04:40 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
I"m so ready for jd vs bisu finals. And I hope that JD can win and shut up the bisu bonjwa fanboys -_-;; (only because they're so annoying, not because I have anything against bisu) Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 07:19 Trezeguet23 wrote:
"Bisu's Destiny"
Excuse my while I go throw up. There's three right there in a five page thread. I personally don't give a damn about it, it's good for hype. But fact is you don't see me going to the Leta appreciation thread bashing him or his fans just because I think he's overrated. But I suppose that's just because I respect other SC fans, and considering this is such a small community, I'd rather get along with everyone rather than lump a group of people into a negative category just because I dislike the way they cheer for their favorite player.
the number of haters rises with a player's bonjwa chances, its proven
so bisu is bonjwa soon lol
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I don't like the idea of Bisu winning the osl but if it's Destiny then so be it.
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On February 26 2009 12:39 erin[go]bragh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 11:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:On February 26 2009 08:16 erin[go]bragh wrote:Great write up! Really looking forward to the rest of this OSL, and the promise of a Bisu vs. Jaedong finals is amazing. On February 26 2009 05:28 brjdrb wrote:
great writeup, but you're just throwing gasoline on a fire that's already out of control (bisu fanboyism). though i would love to see a jaedong vs bisu finals. or bisu vs best If you ask me, bisu haters are the ones who are out of control. Nowadays hating on Bisu (or more so, his fans) is much more of a bandwagon than Bisu fanboyism was. Most LR threads I read involving Bisu matches contains the usual "Go Bisu!" "Yay Bisu!" ect. ect, same as you'd see from any other fan of any other player. What's more annoying is seeing "OMG LOL BISU FANBOIYS SO ANNOYING" for the next couple pages. Granted you do get annoying ones every once in a while. But any player doing as well as KTY right now is going to get pumped up fans who act a little over the top sometimes. People just need to get over it. I haven't seen that recently, could you cite some examples to support your assertion? Are you being serious? Or are you just being a devil's advocate? In case of the latter, I'm going to spare myself the boredom of drudging through live report threads and instead take a look at this one. Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 03:00 Sunyveil wrote:
ugh I can't stand bisu. or his fanboys.
let's just pretend the GOM S2 was his fourth win and move on with it. And I don't think he'd beat JD on these maps anyawy Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 04:40 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
I"m so ready for jd vs bisu finals. And I hope that JD can win and shut up the bisu bonjwa fanboys -_-;; (only because they're so annoying, not because I have anything against bisu) Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 07:19 Trezeguet23 wrote:
"Bisu's Destiny"
Excuse my while I go throw up. There's three right there in a five page thread. I personally don't give a damn about it, it's good for hype. But fact is you don't see me going to the Leta appreciation thread bashing him or his fans just because I think he's overrated. But I suppose that's just because I respect other SC fans, and considering this is such a small community, I'd rather get along with everyone rather than lump a group of people into a negative category just because I dislike the way they cheer for their favorite player.
That's in response to the thread, "Bisu's Destiny". This title is a far cry from the normal cryptic titles, +the word destiny is just asking for it. Anyways, you cited that this happened in LR threads, where there isn't a humongous bias toward Bisu in the title, and yesterday, I don't recall any particular heated posts attacking the fanboys without provocation, which is what I wanted to see.
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The path of a Bonjwa has been well established by the 3 former Bonjwa - Nada, Oov and Savior. Of course Boxer is considered a Bonjwa, but never walked the path of one. The path of a Bonjwa is to win 3 MSLs then win the OSL immediately after the third MSL. For Nada, this was the 2nd, 3rd and 4th KPGA Tours followed by Panasonic OSL. In Panasonic he overcame Chojja, one of Nada's rivals at the time. For iloveoov, this was Trigem, Cengame and SPRIS MSLs followed by EVER2004 OSL where he squared off against his master and mentor, Boxer, in the finals. For Savior, it was UZOO, Pringles 1 and Pringles 2 MSLs followed by Shinhan S3 OSL where he overcame long time rival, Nada, in the final.
NO
NO
NO!
bonjwa is determined by fan consensus regarding a player's dominance. Winning an OSL won't do it. Filling a 'pattern' won't do it. Bisu would have to be free of rivals (or have his rival comparable to nal_ra vs savior), i.e., much much better than both jaedong and flash to be considered bonjwa.
Until that happens, bisu won't be bonjwa. It's dominance, not patterns
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On February 26 2009 14:40 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +The path of a Bonjwa has been well established by the 3 former Bonjwa - Nada, Oov and Savior. Of course Boxer is considered a Bonjwa, but never walked the path of one. The path of a Bonjwa is to win 3 MSLs then win the OSL immediately after the third MSL. For Nada, this was the 2nd, 3rd and 4th KPGA Tours followed by Panasonic OSL. In Panasonic he overcame Chojja, one of Nada's rivals at the time. For iloveoov, this was Trigem, Cengame and SPRIS MSLs followed by EVER2004 OSL where he squared off against his master and mentor, Boxer, in the finals. For Savior, it was UZOO, Pringles 1 and Pringles 2 MSLs followed by Shinhan S3 OSL where he overcame long time rival, Nada, in the final.
NO NO NO! bonjwa is determined by fan consensus regarding a player's dominance. Winning an OSL won't do it. Filling a 'pattern' won't do it. Bisu would have to be free of rivals (or have his rival comparable to nal_ra vs savior), i.e., much much better than both jaedong and flash to be considered bonjwa. Until that happens, bisu won't be bonjwa. It's dominance, not patterns
your sig disagrees.
:monocle:
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On February 26 2009 14:40 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +The path of a Bonjwa has been well established by the 3 former Bonjwa - Nada, Oov and Savior. Of course Boxer is considered a Bonjwa, but never walked the path of one. The path of a Bonjwa is to win 3 MSLs then win the OSL immediately after the third MSL. For Nada, this was the 2nd, 3rd and 4th KPGA Tours followed by Panasonic OSL. In Panasonic he overcame Chojja, one of Nada's rivals at the time. For iloveoov, this was Trigem, Cengame and SPRIS MSLs followed by EVER2004 OSL where he squared off against his master and mentor, Boxer, in the finals. For Savior, it was UZOO, Pringles 1 and Pringles 2 MSLs followed by Shinhan S3 OSL where he overcame long time rival, Nada, in the final.
NO NO NO! bonjwa is determined by fan consensus regarding a player's dominance. Winning an OSL won't do it. Filling a 'pattern' won't do it. Bisu would have to be free of rivals (or have his rival comparable to nal_ra vs savior), i.e., much much better than both jaedong and flash to be considered bonjwa. Until that happens, bisu won't be bonjwa. It's dominance, not patterns
Winning OSL = dominant. How can 1 be not dominant and win 3 MSL + GOM + OSL?
If you are regarding him beating Jaedong and Flash. Well, are you going to blame Bisu for flash getting knocked out in the group stages or if Jaedong loses before he gets to the finals?
People are setting up random qualifications for Bisu to be bonjwa.
Before it was 3MSL + OSL. He wins his 3rd MSL and people started to panic and said he had to perform well in WL/PL and was only a tournement player. Now that his the only one actually winning games for SKT1 and break the ELO peak, they coming up with random stuff like he has to 3-0 Flash and Jaedong on the same day or whatever.
Lets look at his ELO
1. Bisu - 2330
2. Jangbi - 2277
3. Jaedong - 2264
4. Flash - 2261
Look at the difference between #4 - #3. There is an average of 8 points difference between #4 #3 and #2.
Then Bisu is sitting on a massive massive 58 point gap between #1 and #2 = domination!!!
Now shift your eyes from the numbers and look at the names. JANGBI JAEDONG FLASH.
Plz we all look forward to a Bisu vs Jaedong finals. But don't blame Bisu if Jaedong doesnt make it to the finals!
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On February 26 2009 14:21 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 12:39 erin[go]bragh wrote:On February 26 2009 11:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:On February 26 2009 08:16 erin[go]bragh wrote:Great write up! Really looking forward to the rest of this OSL, and the promise of a Bisu vs. Jaedong finals is amazing. On February 26 2009 05:28 brjdrb wrote:
great writeup, but you're just throwing gasoline on a fire that's already out of control (bisu fanboyism). though i would love to see a jaedong vs bisu finals. or bisu vs best If you ask me, bisu haters are the ones who are out of control. Nowadays hating on Bisu (or more so, his fans) is much more of a bandwagon than Bisu fanboyism was. Most LR threads I read involving Bisu matches contains the usual "Go Bisu!" "Yay Bisu!" ect. ect, same as you'd see from any other fan of any other player. What's more annoying is seeing "OMG LOL BISU FANBOIYS SO ANNOYING" for the next couple pages. Granted you do get annoying ones every once in a while. But any player doing as well as KTY right now is going to get pumped up fans who act a little over the top sometimes. People just need to get over it. I haven't seen that recently, could you cite some examples to support your assertion? Are you being serious? Or are you just being a devil's advocate? In case of the latter, I'm going to spare myself the boredom of drudging through live report threads and instead take a look at this one. On February 26 2009 03:00 Sunyveil wrote:
ugh I can't stand bisu. or his fanboys.
let's just pretend the GOM S2 was his fourth win and move on with it. And I don't think he'd beat JD on these maps anyawy On February 26 2009 04:40 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
I"m so ready for jd vs bisu finals. And I hope that JD can win and shut up the bisu bonjwa fanboys -_-;; (only because they're so annoying, not because I have anything against bisu) On February 26 2009 07:19 Trezeguet23 wrote:
"Bisu's Destiny"
Excuse my while I go throw up. There's three right there in a five page thread. I personally don't give a damn about it, it's good for hype. But fact is you don't see me going to the Leta appreciation thread bashing him or his fans just because I think he's overrated. But I suppose that's just because I respect other SC fans, and considering this is such a small community, I'd rather get along with everyone rather than lump a group of people into a negative category just because I dislike the way they cheer for their favorite player. That's in response to the thread, "Bisu's Destiny". This title is a far cry from the normal cryptic titles, +the word destiny is just asking for it. Anyways, you cited that this happened in LR threads, where there isn't a humongous bias toward Bisu in the title, and yesterday, I don't recall any particular heated posts attacking the fanboys without provocation, which is what I wanted to see.
I don't recall saying it happens only in LR threads, and I never cited last nights match as an example. Are you saying there isn't rabid anti-bisu fanboyism? Rather than dodging bullets, produce some sort of argument of your own, if that's what you wish to do!
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its a period of dominance
see:
Can you really say it would be an upset for bisu to lose to jaedong or flash (or even july or best)?
until you can say that, hes not bonjwa.
Savior's rivals were midas, hwasin, iris, nal_ra, nada
of those, only nada could really be considered a strong favorite, and savior was still the odds-on favorite, even against him.
sync won an osl. casy won an osl. Not dominant, not bonjwa.
I mean july has a fucking golden mouse and hes still not considered bonjwa.
Bisu would have to not only win the OSL, but show the dominance both inside and outside the OSL that he showed in the tiebreakers.
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this is the most frustrating thing about blind bisu fanboys:
bisu not being bonjwa has more to do with jaedong and flash, than it does bisu not having enough skill
tl;dr: bisu isn't bonjwa, bisu doesn't want to be bonjwa, stop sucking his dick
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On February 26 2009 14:40 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +The path of a Bonjwa has been well established by the 3 former Bonjwa - Nada, Oov and Savior. Of course Boxer is considered a Bonjwa, but never walked the path of one. The path of a Bonjwa is to win 3 MSLs then win the OSL immediately after the third MSL. For Nada, this was the 2nd, 3rd and 4th KPGA Tours followed by Panasonic OSL. In Panasonic he overcame Chojja, one of Nada's rivals at the time. For iloveoov, this was Trigem, Cengame and SPRIS MSLs followed by EVER2004 OSL where he squared off against his master and mentor, Boxer, in the finals. For Savior, it was UZOO, Pringles 1 and Pringles 2 MSLs followed by Shinhan S3 OSL where he overcame long time rival, Nada, in the final.
NO NO NO! bonjwa is determined by fan consensus regarding a player's dominance. Winning an OSL won't do it. Filling a 'pattern' won't do it. Bisu would have to be free of rivals (or have his rival comparable to nal_ra vs savior), i.e., much much better than both jaedong and flash to be considered bonjwa. Until that happens, bisu won't be bonjwa. It's dominance, not patterns
Dominance has a certain pattern. It's called winning. What is Bisu doing? Winning. So you don't believe he is dominating his opponents in every single game he plays. What if Bisu wins 3 more starleagues but does not do it in a "dominating fashion" will you still not consider him a bonjwa? He currently has the highest ELO rating any player has ever had since they introduced the system. He has a higher ELO peak than Oov had when he was dominating everyone, and the players today are levels upon levels better than they were back then.
Do I consider Bisu a bonjwa now? No I do not think so but he is extremely close to that title. And I am affraid that if you think the next bonjwa needs to dominate like Oov did you will never see a bonjwa ever again.
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I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt.
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On February 26 2009 15:13 ChoboOv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 14:40 fusionsdf wrote:The path of a Bonjwa has been well established by the 3 former Bonjwa - Nada, Oov and Savior. Of course Boxer is considered a Bonjwa, but never walked the path of one. The path of a Bonjwa is to win 3 MSLs then win the OSL immediately after the third MSL. For Nada, this was the 2nd, 3rd and 4th KPGA Tours followed by Panasonic OSL. In Panasonic he overcame Chojja, one of Nada's rivals at the time. For iloveoov, this was Trigem, Cengame and SPRIS MSLs followed by EVER2004 OSL where he squared off against his master and mentor, Boxer, in the finals. For Savior, it was UZOO, Pringles 1 and Pringles 2 MSLs followed by Shinhan S3 OSL where he overcame long time rival, Nada, in the final.
NO NO NO! bonjwa is determined by fan consensus regarding a player's dominance. Winning an OSL won't do it. Filling a 'pattern' won't do it. Bisu would have to be free of rivals (or have his rival comparable to nal_ra vs savior), i.e., much much better than both jaedong and flash to be considered bonjwa. Until that happens, bisu won't be bonjwa. It's dominance, not patterns Dominance has a certain pattern. It's called winning. What is Bisu doing? Winning. So you don't believe he is dominating his opponents in every single game he plays. What if Bisu wins 3 more starleagues but does not do it in a "dominating fashion" will you still not consider him a bonjwa? He currently has the highest ELO rating any player has ever had since they introduced the system. He has a higher ELO peak than Oov had when he was dominating everyone, and the players today are levels upon levels better than they were back then. Do I consider Bisu a bonjwa now? No I do not think so but he is extremely close to that title. And I am affraid that if you think the next bonjwa needs to dominate like Oov did you will never see a bonjwa ever again.
/obligatory post about ELO inflation since oov's time followed by rant about "fanboyism" and people caring way too much about ELOs
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On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt.
You are no doubt undescribe by word, not even human retardation. Your hatred toward a player is stronger then kryptonite. Wut a faggot, you triple post just so you can satisfy your own projectory of who's worthy to be a bonjwa, guess wut, we don't give a fuk wut u think.
When those bonjwas were playing, who the fuck was actually competing at their level? Bisu, to be able to win MSL and GOMTVS2 with these kind of calibers around such as Jaedong, Flash, Jangbi, Stork, etc, are no doubt the most dominance player right now. What happen to Savior when the level of play increases? He simply got rolled over, drop into B-Team, wow, nice trait of a bonjwa don't you think? You, my friend, need to stop sucking Savior's dick.
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Wow this thread stirs up some serious feelings.
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On February 26 2009 15:26 Aurioch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. You are no doubt undescribe by word, not even human retardation. Your hatred toward a player is stronger then kryptonite. Wut a faggot, you triple post just so you can satisfy your own projectory of who's worthy to be a bonjwa, guess wut, we don't give a fuk wut u think. When those bonjwas were playing, who the fuck was actually competing at their level? Bisu, to be able to win MSL and GOMTVS2 with these kind of calibers around such as Jaedong, Flash, Jangbi, Stork, etc, are no doubt the most dominance player right now. What happen to Savior when the level of play increases? He simply got rolled over, drop into B-Team, wow, nice trait of a bonjwa don't you think? You, my friend, need to stop sucking Savior's dick.
i think you need to take a chill pill. first of all, he didn't even mention savior, so idk where you came up with that. second, the view of bonjwa that he's advocating is one that's pretty generally accepted, in that a bonjwa is a player who is clearly on another level from all other players. bisu is not showing that sort of dominance. yes, he is pretty clearly the best overall protoss (though maybe not in all mu's), and one of the top players. is he clearly on another level from jaedong and flash and jangbi? no. that's all that fusion was saying. no need to flame him for it?
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On February 26 2009 15:04 fusionsdf wrote:its a period of dominance see: Can you really say it would be an upset for bisu to lose to jaedong or flash (or even july or best)? until you can say that, hes not bonjwa. Savior's rivals were midas, hwasin, iris, nal_ra, nada of those, only nada could really be considered a strong favorite, and savior was still the odds-on favorite, even against him. sync won an osl. casy won an osl. Not dominant, not bonjwa. I mean july has a fucking golden mouse and hes still not considered bonjwa. Bisu would have to not only win the OSL, but show the dominance both inside and outside the OSL that he showed in the tiebreakers.
Did you bother to read the post before you post your useless junk?
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On February 26 2009 15:39 brjdrb wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 15:26 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. You are no doubt undescribe by word, not even human retardation. Your hatred toward a player is stronger then kryptonite. Wut a faggot, you triple post just so you can satisfy your own projectory of who's worthy to be a bonjwa, guess wut, we don't give a fuk wut u think. When those bonjwas were playing, who the fuck was actually competing at their level? Bisu, to be able to win MSL and GOMTVS2 with these kind of calibers around such as Jaedong, Flash, Jangbi, Stork, etc, are no doubt the most dominance player right now. What happen to Savior when the level of play increases? He simply got rolled over, drop into B-Team, wow, nice trait of a bonjwa don't you think? You, my friend, need to stop sucking Savior's dick. i think you need to take a chill pill. first of all, he didn't even mention savior, so idk where you came up with that. second, the view of bonjwa that he's advocating is one that's pretty generally accepted, in that a bonjwa is a player who is clearly on another level from all other players. bisu is not showing that sort of dominance. yes, he is pretty clearly the best overall protoss (though maybe not in all mu's), and one of the top players. is he clearly on another level from jaedong and flash and jangbi? no. that's all that fusion was saying. no need to flame him for it?
Would you please point out an example of how to go beyond another level of players such as Jaedong and Flash and Jangbi? 100% Winrate?
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You guys can argue all day about if Bisu's gonna be the next Bonjwa or not but the cold hard truth is if he doesn't win this OSL noone will ever be Bonjwa. Players are now so skilled that it's hard for 1 guy to totally dominate the scene.
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[QUOTE]On February 26 2009 10:18 Plexa wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 26 2009 05:28 Qwertify wrote:
Bisu is on SKT1.
Get over it
.[/QUOTE]Nevahhhh!! I'm an angry MBC fanboy. We spent 3 years raising this beast, and now SKT1 gets all the credit >.<. Besides, SKT uniforms look terrible, MBC looks elegant.
your not alone Plexa, this is exactly how i feel 
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On February 26 2009 15:49 Aurioch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 15:39 brjdrb wrote:On February 26 2009 15:26 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. You are no doubt undescribe by word, not even human retardation. Your hatred toward a player is stronger then kryptonite. Wut a faggot, you triple post just so you can satisfy your own projectory of who's worthy to be a bonjwa, guess wut, we don't give a fuk wut u think. When those bonjwas were playing, who the fuck was actually competing at their level? Bisu, to be able to win MSL and GOMTVS2 with these kind of calibers around such as Jaedong, Flash, Jangbi, Stork, etc, are no doubt the most dominance player right now. What happen to Savior when the level of play increases? He simply got rolled over, drop into B-Team, wow, nice trait of a bonjwa don't you think? You, my friend, need to stop sucking Savior's dick. i think you need to take a chill pill. first of all, he didn't even mention savior, so idk where you came up with that. second, the view of bonjwa that he's advocating is one that's pretty generally accepted, in that a bonjwa is a player who is clearly on another level from all other players. bisu is not showing that sort of dominance. yes, he is pretty clearly the best overall protoss (though maybe not in all mu's), and one of the top players. is he clearly on another level from jaedong and flash and jangbi? no. that's all that fusion was saying. no need to flame him for it? Would you please point out an example of how to go beyond another level of players such as Jaedong and Flash and Jangbi? 100% Winrate?
i will admit that that level of dominance is something that's not easily quantified. which is probably why it is so disputed. however, we can just look at his records vs some of the top players from the last year:
vs jaedong: 1-3
vs flash: 4-6
vs leta: 1-1
vs jangbi: 6-3
vs stork: 5-2
vs forgg: 0-2
vs mind: 2-0
vs july: 2-1
vs luxury: 1-2
(from 02/25/08 - 02/25/09 in TLPD)
the list goes on. yes, u can say i just chose random players, but i think we can both agree that those are some of the best players in the last year in starcraft. if bisu were truly bonjwa status, he would have dominant records vs these players. but he does not, especially against his main competitors, jaedong and flash. in anticipation of the "but bisu's been destroying everyone for the past few months" argument, let's remind ourselves that a true bonjwa has a long period of dominance. if bisu continues his current trend for a few more months, then maybe he will be considered a bonjwa. but at this point in time? no
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On February 26 2009 12:39 erin[go]bragh wrote:
There's three right there in a five page thread. I personally don't give a damn about it, it's good for hype. But fact is you don't see me going to the Leta appreciation thread bashing him or his fans just because I think he's overrated. But I suppose that's just because I respect other SC fans, and considering this is such a small community, I'd rather get along with everyone rather than lump a group of people into a negative category just because I dislike the way they cheer for their favorite player.
That's a great sentiment. I respect you for thinking like that.
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On February 26 2009 16:09 brjdrb wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 15:49 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:39 brjdrb wrote:On February 26 2009 15:26 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. You are no doubt undescribe by word, not even human retardation. Your hatred toward a player is stronger then kryptonite. Wut a faggot, you triple post just so you can satisfy your own projectory of who's worthy to be a bonjwa, guess wut, we don't give a fuk wut u think. When those bonjwas were playing, who the fuck was actually competing at their level? Bisu, to be able to win MSL and GOMTVS2 with these kind of calibers around such as Jaedong, Flash, Jangbi, Stork, etc, are no doubt the most dominance player right now. What happen to Savior when the level of play increases? He simply got rolled over, drop into B-Team, wow, nice trait of a bonjwa don't you think? You, my friend, need to stop sucking Savior's dick. i think you need to take a chill pill. first of all, he didn't even mention savior, so idk where you came up with that. second, the view of bonjwa that he's advocating is one that's pretty generally accepted, in that a bonjwa is a player who is clearly on another level from all other players. bisu is not showing that sort of dominance. yes, he is pretty clearly the best overall protoss (though maybe not in all mu's), and one of the top players. is he clearly on another level from jaedong and flash and jangbi? no. that's all that fusion was saying. no need to flame him for it? Would you please point out an example of how to go beyond another level of players such as Jaedong and Flash and Jangbi? 100% Winrate? i will admit that that level of dominance is something that's not easily quantified. which is probably why it is so disputed. however, we can just look at his records vs some of the top players from the last year: vs jaedong: 1-3 vs flash: 4-6 vs leta: 1-1 vs jangbi: 6-3 vs stork: 5-2 vs forgg: 0-2 vs mind: 2-0 vs july: 2-1 vs luxury: 1-2 (from 02/25/08 - 02/25/09 in TLPD) the list goes on. yes, u can say i just chose random players, but i think we can both agree that those are some of the best players in the last year in starcraft. if bisu were truly bonjwa status, he would have dominant records vs these players. but he does not, especially against his main competitors, jaedong and flash. in anticipation of the "but bisu's been destroying everyone for the past few months" argument, let's remind ourselves that a true bonjwa has a long period of dominance. if bisu continues his current trend for a few more months, then maybe he will be considered a bonjwa. but at this point in time? no
How would you categorize Bisu and FirebatHero's record against Savior? Is it all about statistic? I certainly hope not..
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On February 26 2009 15:49 Aurioch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 15:39 brjdrb wrote:On February 26 2009 15:26 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. You are no doubt undescribe by word, not even human retardation. Your hatred toward a player is stronger then kryptonite. Wut a faggot, you triple post just so you can satisfy your own projectory of who's worthy to be a bonjwa, guess wut, we don't give a fuk wut u think. When those bonjwas were playing, who the fuck was actually competing at their level? Bisu, to be able to win MSL and GOMTVS2 with these kind of calibers around such as Jaedong, Flash, Jangbi, Stork, etc, are no doubt the most dominance player right now. What happen to Savior when the level of play increases? He simply got rolled over, drop into B-Team, wow, nice trait of a bonjwa don't you think? You, my friend, need to stop sucking Savior's dick. i think you need to take a chill pill. first of all, he didn't even mention savior, so idk where you came up with that. second, the view of bonjwa that he's advocating is one that's pretty generally accepted, in that a bonjwa is a player who is clearly on another level from all other players. bisu is not showing that sort of dominance. yes, he is pretty clearly the best overall protoss (though maybe not in all mu's), and one of the top players. is he clearly on another level from jaedong and flash and jangbi? no. that's all that fusion was saying. no need to flame him for it? Would you please point out an example of how to go beyond another level of players such as Jaedong and Flash and Jangbi? 100% Winrate?
Btw, one doesn't need to suck sAviOr's dick in order to think that Bisu's not bonjwa. I'm a huge Bisu fan but Bisu just doesn't have the same aura and dominance that the previous bonjwas had and my "fanboyism" isn't going to make me think he does. Bisu is damn good, but not a bonjwa. In this day and age, it'll be a rare sight to see a bonjwa emerge amongst such a good playing field.
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On February 26 2009 16:49 Aurioch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 16:09 brjdrb wrote:On February 26 2009 15:49 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:39 brjdrb wrote:On February 26 2009 15:26 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. You are no doubt undescribe by word, not even human retardation. Your hatred toward a player is stronger then kryptonite. Wut a faggot, you triple post just so you can satisfy your own projectory of who's worthy to be a bonjwa, guess wut, we don't give a fuk wut u think. When those bonjwas were playing, who the fuck was actually competing at their level? Bisu, to be able to win MSL and GOMTVS2 with these kind of calibers around such as Jaedong, Flash, Jangbi, Stork, etc, are no doubt the most dominance player right now. What happen to Savior when the level of play increases? He simply got rolled over, drop into B-Team, wow, nice trait of a bonjwa don't you think? You, my friend, need to stop sucking Savior's dick. i think you need to take a chill pill. first of all, he didn't even mention savior, so idk where you came up with that. second, the view of bonjwa that he's advocating is one that's pretty generally accepted, in that a bonjwa is a player who is clearly on another level from all other players. bisu is not showing that sort of dominance. yes, he is pretty clearly the best overall protoss (though maybe not in all mu's), and one of the top players. is he clearly on another level from jaedong and flash and jangbi? no. that's all that fusion was saying. no need to flame him for it? Would you please point out an example of how to go beyond another level of players such as Jaedong and Flash and Jangbi? 100% Winrate? i will admit that that level of dominance is something that's not easily quantified. which is probably why it is so disputed. however, we can just look at his records vs some of the top players from the last year: vs jaedong: 1-3 vs flash: 4-6 vs leta: 1-1 vs jangbi: 6-3 vs stork: 5-2 vs forgg: 0-2 vs mind: 2-0 vs july: 2-1 vs luxury: 1-2 (from 02/25/08 - 02/25/09 in TLPD) the list goes on. yes, u can say i just chose random players, but i think we can both agree that those are some of the best players in the last year in starcraft. if bisu were truly bonjwa status, he would have dominant records vs these players. but he does not, especially against his main competitors, jaedong and flash. in anticipation of the "but bisu's been destroying everyone for the past few months" argument, let's remind ourselves that a true bonjwa has a long period of dominance. if bisu continues his current trend for a few more months, then maybe he will be considered a bonjwa. but at this point in time? no How would you categorize Bisu and FirebatHero's record against Savior? Is it all about statistic? I certainly hope not..
it's not, and that's why i said that dominance is hard to quantify. that is merely my best attempt to statistically demonstrate that bisu is not dominant over jaedong, flash, and other players over the past year. while statistics can be a good indicator, they don't show what happened during the games (how close they were or how well the players performed). i think you have a misunderstanding concerning savior. nobody is suggesting (seriously at least) that savior is as dominant as he was during his reign. no bonjwa is as dominant as they were during their respective reign. that doesn't stop them from being a bonjwa.
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On February 26 2009 15:51 Mista wrote:
You guys can argue all day about if Bisu's gonna be the next Bonjwa or not but the cold hard truth is if he doesn't win this OSL noone will ever be Bonjwa. Players are now so skilled that it's hard for 1 guy to totally dominate the scene.
Agree 100%.
Every single Sport or eSport in the early ages has periods of domination but as time passes and skill level grows all-around it's really hard for one player/team to really stand-out.
Just take a look at Soccer: World Cups 40 years ago had teams that were completely unable to beat some of the most famous teams but nowadays "upsets" are just much more common.
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Bah, this discussion is pointless since bisu will get his ass kicked out of OSL soon anyway...
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Good work, thanks, but Phisu can suck balls.
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On February 26 2009 17:32 nttea wrote:
Bah, this discussion is pointless since bisu will get his ass kicked out of OSL soon anyway...
Party pooper
I hope Bisu proves that you're sorely wrong
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. To be fair fusionsdf; do you consider oov to be a bonjwa? Becuase July raped him silly prior to oovs OSL win. Namely in the Gillette semis (2-3) and in iTv - twice. So yea, Oov got manhandled by July quite regularly. Savior was held back by Chojja as well - namely how he got raped in CYON.
But all of that doesn't really matter. Once the Bonjwa enters Bonjwa mode (after winning their 3rd MSL until they win their OSL) there are no more players to hold them back. Prior to this they can lose games to weird people and the top tier, and can never truly be distinguished as the elite. However once in this stage nothing stands in their way - and Jaedong, nor Flash, are going to be able to stop Bisu.
EDIT: after reading further it does seem that you have ignored all of savior's "reign" until the last part of his reign. Remember that savior looked VERY mortal against Midas in the MSL semifinal as well - so much so that he should have lost the 4th game (but midas is the epic game 4 choke artist).
Oh and to all the people saying there will never be another bonjwa. Well, assuming SC doesn't die out, there will be another one. Who it will be I don't know; but what I do know is that people were saying there would be no more bonjwa's after Savior and look what we have here .
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
this whole bonjwa yay, bonjwa nay, bonjwa blahblablah thing is starting to annoy me to no end -.-
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On February 26 2009 17:32 nttea wrote:
Bah, this discussion is pointless since bisu will get his ass kicked out of OSL soon anyway...
Yes yes, the end is near!
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Great read, I think if we end up with a Bisu v Jaedong finals for the Bonjwa title, it will be supremely epic.
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Thanks for the article. I think the epoch of the domination is not over yet so "go Bisu".
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On February 26 2009 18:29 Carnac wrote:
this whole bonjwa yay, bonjwa nay, bonjwa blahblablah thing is starting to annoy me to no end -.-
Exactly,
Depends on how you interperate bonjwadom. Some people consider it a certain level of dominance for some arbitrary period of time. As much of a fanboy I am, I doubt bisu will ever meet this criteria. His play is inherently risky, it's the risk he is willing to take, and the subsequent pressure he is able to perform under that makes him so successful.
But with this inherent risk means he will drop games randomly, why? because thats what risk is. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't.
Some people interperate it as a certain number of titles, in which case he may very well eventually meet the criteria for.
In the end does it matter? There is no objective measure for being bonjwa, you can only express YOUR OPINION of what bonjwa is and whether or not he is one. But you are not the person who decides whether or not someone is bonjwa because they meet your arbitrary opnion on what makes bonjwa, noone cares what you think, history will eventually be the judge.
In the mean time why not just enjoy the excitement that his risky playstyle brings?
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China3334 Posts
On February 26 2009 10:18 Plexa wrote:Nevahhhh!! I'm an angry MBC fanboy. We spent 3 years raising this beast, and now SKT1 gets all the credit >.<. Besides, SKT uniforms look terrible, MBC looks elegant.
This! I miss MBC uniform so much T_T
And...sorry I don't ask for your credit but I love my signature
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
<3 its okay Emlary you're more than welcome to take anything from my posts
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On February 26 2009 10:18 Plexa wrote:Nevahhhh!! I'm an angry MBC fanboy. We spent 3 years raising this beast, and now SKT1 gets all the credit >.<. Besides, SKT uniforms look terrible, MBC looks elegant.
i share this pain T_T i still remember MBC beating CJ and SKT in SKYPL final, damn that was amazing it was such a deep roster. July, Bisu, Pusan, Sea, Light ... shark and thezerg sometimes carried their weight too. Good'ol times. If Bisu didnt come from the POS/MBC factory, i would surely not support him as much as I do now.
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On February 26 2009 15:04 fusionsdf wrote:its a period of dominance see: Can you really say it would be an upset for bisu to lose to jaedong or flash (or even july or best)? until you can say that, hes not bonjwa. Savior's rivals were midas, hwasin, iris, nal_ra, nada of those, only nada could really be considered a strong favorite, and savior was still the odds-on favorite, even against him. sync won an osl. casy won an osl. Not dominant, not bonjwa. I mean july has a fucking golden mouse and hes still not considered bonjwa. Bisu would have to not only win the OSL, but show the dominance both inside and outside the OSL that he showed in the tiebreakers.
the graph is a year old though. I wonder what 2008 in full would look like.
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On February 26 2009 15:49 Aurioch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 15:39 brjdrb wrote:On February 26 2009 15:26 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. You are no doubt undescribe by word, not even human retardation. Your hatred toward a player is stronger then kryptonite. Wut a faggot, you triple post just so you can satisfy your own projectory of who's worthy to be a bonjwa, guess wut, we don't give a fuk wut u think. When those bonjwas were playing, who the fuck was actually competing at their level? Bisu, to be able to win MSL and GOMTVS2 with these kind of calibers around such as Jaedong, Flash, Jangbi, Stork, etc, are no doubt the most dominance player right now. What happen to Savior when the level of play increases? He simply got rolled over, drop into B-Team, wow, nice trait of a bonjwa don't you think? You, my friend, need to stop sucking Savior's dick. i think you need to take a chill pill. first of all, he didn't even mention savior, so idk where you came up with that. second, the view of bonjwa that he's advocating is one that's pretty generally accepted, in that a bonjwa is a player who is clearly on another level from all other players. bisu is not showing that sort of dominance. yes, he is pretty clearly the best overall protoss (though maybe not in all mu's), and one of the top players. is he clearly on another level from jaedong and flash and jangbi? no. that's all that fusion was saying. no need to flame him for it? Would you please point out an example of how to go beyond another level of players such as Jaedong and Flash and Jangbi? 100% Winrate?
boy.... Wish I had posted a graph that shows that....and you even quoted it like an idiot while frothing at the mouth.
sorry buddy, but you don't get to personally decide who is bonjwa
go back to USEast
On February 26 2009 23:44 zhaoli86 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 15:04 fusionsdf wrote:its a period of dominance see: Can you really say it would be an upset for bisu to lose to jaedong or flash (or even july or best)? until you can say that, hes not bonjwa. Savior's rivals were midas, hwasin, iris, nal_ra, nada of those, only nada could really be considered a strong favorite, and savior was still the odds-on favorite, even against him. sync won an osl. casy won an osl. Not dominant, not bonjwa. I mean july has a fucking golden mouse and hes still not considered bonjwa. Bisu would have to not only win the OSL, but show the dominance both inside and outside the OSL that he showed in the tiebreakers. the graph is a year old though. I wonder what 2008 in full would look like.
the graph is less than a month old.
What it says is that from the first date listed, say Feb 2006 to a year from then (feb 2007) that player had such and such winning percentage.
That means at the end of a year of playing savior had ~75% winning rate.
So the dates like Jan 2008 is actually the range from jan 2008 to one month ago.
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On February 26 2009 16:49 Aurioch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 16:09 brjdrb wrote:On February 26 2009 15:49 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:39 brjdrb wrote:On February 26 2009 15:26 Aurioch wrote:On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. You are no doubt undescribe by word, not even human retardation. Your hatred toward a player is stronger then kryptonite. Wut a faggot, you triple post just so you can satisfy your own projectory of who's worthy to be a bonjwa, guess wut, we don't give a fuk wut u think. When those bonjwas were playing, who the fuck was actually competing at their level? Bisu, to be able to win MSL and GOMTVS2 with these kind of calibers around such as Jaedong, Flash, Jangbi, Stork, etc, are no doubt the most dominance player right now. What happen to Savior when the level of play increases? He simply got rolled over, drop into B-Team, wow, nice trait of a bonjwa don't you think? You, my friend, need to stop sucking Savior's dick. i think you need to take a chill pill. first of all, he didn't even mention savior, so idk where you came up with that. second, the view of bonjwa that he's advocating is one that's pretty generally accepted, in that a bonjwa is a player who is clearly on another level from all other players. bisu is not showing that sort of dominance. yes, he is pretty clearly the best overall protoss (though maybe not in all mu's), and one of the top players. is he clearly on another level from jaedong and flash and jangbi? no. that's all that fusion was saying. no need to flame him for it? Would you please point out an example of how to go beyond another level of players such as Jaedong and Flash and Jangbi? 100% Winrate? i will admit that that level of dominance is something that's not easily quantified. which is probably why it is so disputed. however, we can just look at his records vs some of the top players from the last year: vs jaedong: 1-3 vs flash: 4-6 vs leta: 1-1 vs jangbi: 6-3 vs stork: 5-2 vs forgg: 0-2 vs mind: 2-0 vs july: 2-1 vs luxury: 1-2 (from 02/25/08 - 02/25/09 in TLPD) the list goes on. yes, u can say i just chose random players, but i think we can both agree that those are some of the best players in the last year in starcraft. if bisu were truly bonjwa status, he would have dominant records vs these players. but he does not, especially against his main competitors, jaedong and flash. in anticipation of the "but bisu's been destroying everyone for the past few months" argument, let's remind ourselves that a true bonjwa has a long period of dominance. if bisu continues his current trend for a few more months, then maybe he will be considered a bonjwa. but at this point in time? no How would you categorize Bisu and FirebatHero's record against Savior? Is it all about statistic? I certainly hope not..
Bisu and Firebathero didnt have those records vs savior during savior's dominance (while he was bonjwa)
Bisu: 0-0
FBH: 0-0
On February 26 2009 18:20 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 15:16 fusionsdf wrote:
I won't consider him a bonjwa, no. I will consider him the most skilled protoss in history, and one of the very best players ever.
But he still won't be bonjwa. And neither will Flash or Jaedong until one of them really really takes off, or the others falter.
also, the whole ELO peak higher + harder players = twice as good is really misleading
ELO peak is inflationary, in large part because the players are better. Iloveoov had a stronger period of dominance than bisu, of that there can be no doubt. To be fair fusionsdf; do you consider oov to be a bonjwa? Becuase July raped him silly prior to oovs OSL win. Namely in the Gillette semis (2-3) and in iTv - twice. So yea, Oov got manhandled by July quite regularly. Savior was held back by Chojja as well - namely how he got raped in CYON. But all of that doesn't really matter. Once the Bonjwa enters Bonjwa mode (after winning their 3rd MSL until they win their OSL) there are no more players to hold them back. Prior to this they can lose games to weird people and the top tier, and can never truly be distinguished as the elite. However once in this stage nothing stands in their way - and Jaedong, nor Flash, are going to be able to stop Bisu. EDIT: after reading further it does seem that you have ignored all of savior's "reign" until the last part of his reign. Remember that savior looked VERY mortal against Midas in the MSL semifinal as well - so much so that he should have lost the 4th game (but midas is the epic game 4 choke artist). Oh and to all the people saying there will never be another bonjwa. Well, assuming SC doesn't die out, there will be another one. Who it will be I don't know; but what I do know is that people were saying there would be no more bonjwa's after Savior and look what we have here .
Yes, I consider oov a bonjwa. Dominance is important, not winning certain leagues in a certain time period (such things should only be used as a display of dominance). Its not like you have to win a certain number of leagues, or a certain league in a certain pattern. You are bonjwa when the korean fans say you are, and the korean fans say you are when you show the dominance required.
You can cherry-pick games all you want. If you construct a graph of win-rate, and look at the periods where oov was dominant and savior was dominant, you will see them far and above their rivals. You won't see that for bisu, or for july, or for reach or for stork or for nal_ra or for midas or for hwasin etc
You can lose a single game against an opponent considered to be the very best, or near the very best in that matchup. You don't have to have 100% winning rate to be bonjwa.
But you do have to be dominant. So I will say again. If bisu wins OSL he is not guaranteed bonjwa status. bonjwa is dominance not specific patterns that bisu fanboys try and warp and make them fit.
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hopefully I've addressed everyone
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On February 27 2009 01:16 Plexa wrote:All signs point towards Bisu doing exactly what has been prescribed in legend fusionsdf . Savior lost games to Chojja numerous times, OOv was manhandled by July on numerous occasions, all outside of the OSL run - which is where they achieved their bonjwa status. So please stop being so picky of bisu if you consider Savior and OOv bonjwas . The same thing is happening to Bisu as has happened to previous ones (ie god mode during their OSL run); a 9-0 after his OSL Rnd1 group disaster in the OSL speaks for itself. Killing Jangbi in GOM further cements this idea. SC is a very superstitious game; oov curse, kim carriers curse, OSL curse, bonjwa curse (oov > nada, savior > oov, bisu > savior)m legend of the fall and so on. So don't be surprised when the pattern repeats itself again.
woah
woah
woah
savior was knocked out in one msl by chojja, and knocked chojja out (2-0 I might add) during the next MSL.
show me a long period of bisu dominance. Thats all I'm asking you to do. Preferably a year long period of dominance, but at least something like 8 months.
Bisu isnt as dominant right now as savior or bisu were during their primes, and you know it.
those patterns are nice, but they don't mean a hell of a lot.
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On February 26 2009 23:44 zhaoli86 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 15:04 fusionsdf wrote:its a period of dominance see: Can you really say it would be an upset for bisu to lose to jaedong or flash (or even july or best)? until you can say that, hes not bonjwa. Savior's rivals were midas, hwasin, iris, nal_ra, nada of those, only nada could really be considered a strong favorite, and savior was still the odds-on favorite, even against him. sync won an osl. casy won an osl. Not dominant, not bonjwa. I mean july has a fucking golden mouse and hes still not considered bonjwa. Bisu would have to not only win the OSL, but show the dominance both inside and outside the OSL that he showed in the tiebreakers. the graph is a year old though. I wonder what 2008 in full would look like.
Something like this:
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Haha that's cute.But be realistic
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Savior was only playing 1/5 the amount of games Bisu is playing now. It's probably easier to dominate that way as he had much more time to prepare for every single match he had.
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On February 27 2009 02:04 Mista wrote:Haha that's cute.But be realistic
I just checked.
Bisu went up 1.1% to 67.77% (Mar 2008 - now)
Savior went up 3.32% to 50.94 (Mar 2008 - now)
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The graph is grossly misleading and inaccurate.
Bisu has 47% from Mar 08 - Oct 08, but 76.5% from Oct 08 - present, a 5 month period, which isn't too short.
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its not misleading and its not inaccurate.
It covers year long spans, and it covers every single month since 2005 in order to avoid bias.
But no graph is going to be able to say everything and still be readable. If you want to make a graph with 6 month spans, you are more than welcome to.
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We all know Bisu is going to win the OSL, but HOW will he win it? Since he's 9-0, how amazing would it be if he went through the rest of the OSL without dropping a single game ... :D
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On February 26 2009 01:43 Zinbiel wrote:
Most of this article is really good but I really disapprove of the following statement:
The Gods of Brood War took note of this, and realized their mistake. They took out the least valuable player from the OSL via physical injury (hi Backho) and gave Bisu another shot at the OSL - and indeed, Bisu advanced into the OSL just as fate intended.
Backho would have made this OSL so much more fun, especially if he had been the one to beat stork again.
You must be trippin'! :O
If I so had hated Bisu with all my heart, I'd STILL think this OSL would be better with him.
Great rivalry is the secret ingredient to any great tournament!
(Thus I'm really sad my boxing-bag Flash is out  )
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On February 27 2009 03:01 fusionsdf wrote:
its not misleading and its not inaccurate.
It covers year long spans, and it covers every single month since 2005 in order to avoid bias.
But no graph is going to be able to say everything and still be readable. If you want to make a graph with 6 month spans, you are more than welcome to.
The graph is misleading because:
the horizontal span of 2008 is only a fraction of other years, and the 2 months of 2009 isn't covered. This makes Bisu's recent dominance seem much shorter than it really is.
It's inaccurate because the win rates of bisu's are way off. Bisu has over 70% in every single month for the past 5 months.
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the 2 months of 2009 are covered
01/01/2008 - 01/01/2009
02/01/2008 - 02/01/2009
he may have 70% in specific months.
He doesn't have 70% for an entire year (which is again what this graph measures)
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On February 27 2009 04:16 fragamemnon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2009 03:07 reaver_drop wrote:
We all know Bisu is going to win the OSL, but HOW will he win it? Since he's 9-0, how amazing would it be if he went through the rest of the OSL without dropping a single game ... :D Isn't Bisu on a collision course with Jaedong in the semifinals? Going to be really hard for Bisu to beat Jaedong on Tears of the Moon due to that map's zany imba in PvZ. I know Bisu tested out a one-gate build against YellOw[ArnC] in a throwaway game in the OSL round of 16, but it felt terribly slow to develop-it did beat yarnc, but yarnc is no Jaedong.
we don't know the brackets yet for the osl, but they'll probably announce it sometime soon after the tiebreakers 2nite. so we'll get to know if jaedong faces bisu in the semis or the finals
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
Dunno, i'm kind of sure Jaedong will crush him if they play right now or in the finals. GOM Showmatch could help Bisu a lot though as a preparation for possible finals.
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i agree with fusion on the bonjwa thing, to Koreans its about dominance , not starleague titles(and who are we to argue with them about the meaning of a term that they invented?). From what i understand you are a bonjwa when everyone expects u will win no matter who is placed in front of you, and by that criteria Boxer was THE bonjwa, so i dont understand the logic of saying he doesnt merit the title, and also i think everyone pretty much agrees that u cant really say who is all around better between flash, jaedong and bisu , so no i wouldnt give bisu bonjwa status if he won this OSL( I might rethink that statement if he takes it without a single loss)
Anyway, July reinvented zerg in practically every matchup, was in three OSL finals(of which he took 2) in 1 year or so, and was ranked Kespa no.1 for 11 months straight. So if he isn't considered a bonjwa, then fuck me if bisu is.
In conclusion i'll start calling him a bonjwa when the Koreans do.
All that aside he's playing beastly lately, and for sure is the best toss of all time.
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hello guys! i never posted nothing here before, but ive been reading your comments and watching sc games for many years. my fiance said that i´m too anti-social. i think its because e-sports are not popular in my country and i think about sc all the time, although dont have anyone to talk about it. so when i read this post, i thought that it was a perfect moment to tell my ideas because IM A GREAT BISU FAN! i used to play zerg until the day i watched bisu vs. savior. this game changed my life, i was (and still am) a savior, july, yellow and all good zerg players. at that time always when i saw savior building that hatch on the 3rd base on the other side of the map i just thought: "gg". but in that osl final things were different. after watch those games and other bisu games millions of times i decided changing to protoss. and here i am, just the same. i dont mind if bisu fans are annoying or whatever, he is the revolutionist and he will be the next bonjwa im quite sure!! i think its all for now... im happy that i said those things and when i get enough courage ill write something again... see you guys!! and GOGOGO BISU!! \o/
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too many bisu fanboys imo
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this is bisu's osl
end of paragraph
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Braavos36374 Posts
On February 27 2009 06:30 Magic84 wrote:
Dunno, i'm kind of sure Jaedong will crush him if they play right now or in the finals. GOM Showmatch could help Bisu a lot though as a preparation for possible finals.
from watching the two play over the past few weeks, i think Bisu is definitely in a much better condition skills wise than Jaedong is. Jaedong is of course performing at an extremely high level, but Bisu has never been better his entire career. He's peaking right now.
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stfu the only reason u guis dont think bisu is a bonjwa is cuz ur jealous of his good looks
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So over the past few days I have seen many people saying Bisu’s recent five month dominance is not as impressive as sAviOr’s one year dominance of the pro scene, because sAviOr was playing better for a year rather than five months like Bisu. However, I decided to compare stats and go off of number of games played over these time periods, instead of looking at their length in time because we know that in these days, progamers play many more games in now than they did back then. The monthly records were just how I broke it down. I was more focused on the overall records after these lengths of time. Breaking it down into months seemed to show how much more a month a progamer plays now than back then. Here is what I discovered:
Bisu's monthly record since Oct 2008:
Oct '08 - (10-3) 76.92%
Nov '08 - (14-5) 73.68%
Dec '08 - (7-1) 87.5%
Jan '09 - (17-6) 73.91%
Feb '09 - (17-5) 77.27% (SKT has one more match this month which he could play in)
Bisu’s total record since Oct '08 - (65-20) 76.47%
sAviOr’s monthly record from Apr 2006 until MSL Finals vs Bisu
Apr ’06 – (1-0) 100%
May ’06 – (6-2) 75%
June ’06 – (7-5) 58.33%
July ’06 – (7-1) 87.50%
Aug ’06 – (1-0) 100%
Sept ’06 – (5-1) 83.33%
Oct ’06 – (2-1) 66.66%
Nov ’06 – (11-3) 78.57%
Dec ’06 – (3-2) 60.00%
Jan ’07 – (7-2) 77.77%
Feb ’07 – (12-5) 70.59%
sAviOr’s total record - (62-22) 73.81%.
sAviOr played 84 games total from Apr 2006 (graph shows this is the year he hit his peak) to March 2007 when Bisu beat him in the MSL Finals (sAviOr’s slump begins), compared to Bisu’s 85 games played over 5 months. So in half the time, Bisu has played just as many games as sAviOr did duing his prime and actually has a slightly better record. I was very surprised by these statistics and just thought would share them with everyone. I’ll let everyone form their own opinions about whether these stats are meaningful or not, but I just thought it was cool to look at and that others may enjoy this as well.
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Bisu vs Jaedong Gom TV Showmatch will decide who's better.
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those are nice stats OmegaFang
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Yeah OmegaFang, thanks for digging that up
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yea great stats Omega, hmm, so should flash have been considered bonjwa then too? i think he was pretty much unbeatable for 6 months surely, with the GSI, bacchus osl and other stuff, and he played a monstruos amount of games then, would like to see those stats...
anyway, like i said, i dont think its about statistics, its about how everyone thinks u'll win whoever they put you up against. In savior's dominance, days, sure there were ppl who would say he would lose this game or that game just for the heck of it, but if you asked ppl who would they put a 1000$ on if they had to, i'm pretty sure you would have 95% of the people betting on Savior, no matter who he played against. The same goes for Boxer, oov and Nada in their respective primes. But like i said, you put bisu up against flash or jaedong and no way that you will get over 90% people saying bisu will win.
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oh and OmegaFang, i would be very interested in seeing these same stats for Boxer, Nada, oov, and July( and Flash like i mentioned earlier). i would post them myself, but i dont know where you got them...
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Osaka27136 Posts
The TLPD on the right hand side.
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You're welcome to doubt Stork anytime!
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Yeah, I got them off TLPD like Manifesto said, but I'll see if I can get the stats on Boxer, Nada, oov, July and Flash too.
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Domination at "bonjwa level" isn't cherry picking some cute facts about your favourite player and arguing for his "bonjwahood". It's pretty much being the best at everything. Winning more titles than your rivals, being the best player of your team and the entire scene by some distance, having better winning percentages - the usual.
Like fusionsdf mentioned, I think people on this site have varying opinions on what a bonjwa is, whereas people on Korean communities more or less came to the conclusion that it's about complete domination over fellow progamers for a certain length of time more than anything else. Of course, since the phrase has no concrete definitition, maybe this is the beauty (or horror) of the whole thing. In my opinion, Bisu has already succeeded in being a protoss legend, but his relative superiority compared to his rivals is simply way too putrid to call him a bonjwa.
"That only makes his domination more amazing than ever! He is doing so well with the likes of Flash and Jaedong competing with him! So that makes him bonjwa if he wins this OSL!"
No. It may make him more amazing than ever, but it certainly does not make him bonjwa if you ask me. Flash and Bisu have commented multiple times that the current progaming scene has made things next to impossible for one player to be the absolute best (bonjwa), and will instead be satisfied with the title of being the greatest player ever. So argue for Bisu being the greatest protoss ever, the greatest player of the modern period or even perhaps potentially the greatest player ever, but people are always going to have an issue when you're calling him by far the best player in the scene (which is what bonjwa is) when there are players Bisu obviously is not the clear favourite against.
Stork said this in an interview when asked about the overall his standing in the "TaeBengLeeSsang" quartet:
"I feel that Bisu should be ranked first because of his overall accomplishments. Skillwise, Jaedong is the best in my opinion."
When you ask players, fans, coaches, commentators and journalists on who the best player in the scene is currently (not who is the greatest overall player that is still performing at the top), I can assure you that Flash and Jaedong will get their share of votes, because, as great as Bisu is, he is not as dominant as the past bonjwas.
"Oov lost against July, and Savior lost against Chojja, but people still called them the best. So Bisu is the best too!"
Considering Oov had a shut-out victory against July just a few weeks after his crushing defeat against him on his way to winning two additional individual titles (not counting his 3-0 victory over July a year later here), there was still no question about who the best player in the scene was. July then overtook Oov as the best player in the scene with his performances during late 2004~mid 2005, but was not bonjwa because Go Rush and Nada were basically sharing the limelight with him. Savior lost against Chojja, but then went on to win three individual leagues, bettered him in the proleague, went undefeated against Chojja in all stages after his Cyon MSL defeat and basically became the undisputed number one player in the scene.
As for the pattern that Bisu will complete if he wins this OSL. Take a look at a past post I made some time ago.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=85713¤tpage=3
It basically shows you how Bisu's trophies are more of an "overall achievement" thing, rather than "utter domination". Bisu failed to win 8 consecutive individual leagues in between his triumphs. Even if he wins the OSL this season, that's four individual league titles out of 13. Nada needed 5, Oov 6 and Savior 9. I personally think it's a stretch to even elongated Savior's "reign" all the way back to his first MSL win, but it irks me to see people try to dig up Bisu's season 2006 accomplishments (his first MSL win) in order to establish his being bonjwa "now". It's not as if Bisu was good all the way through. He sucked ass in early 2008, having a sub-fifty winning rate and dropping out of individual leagues at the earliest stages. Bisu is regarded as the best because of his recent triumphs, and his past achievements make him a greater player, but more dominant? I don't think so.
Bisu currently has:
1. One MSL victory (same number as anyone in recent days)
2. One Gom league victory (one "major" event league victory)
3. Respectable performances in the Proleague
4. Sky soaring winning percentages
That's fantastic. Let's see if he can build up from here. Then we can talk. Remember how Jaedong sweeped the OSL, MSL and the Proleague within the space of three months? That was the closest thing to "bonjwa level" domination we've had post-Savior era in my opinion. If Bisu manages to win back-to-back individual leagues like Jaedong did, sustain his Proleague performances, then we're going somewhere. If not, let's not make such a fuss because his one MSL triumph added with his other trophies 9 individual leagues before "adds up" well.
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I know were not supposed to just bump threads, but the above post is amazing and needs more attention.
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ok so to unravel this whole bonjwa mess, inspired by OmegaFang's Bisu and Savior stats, i have looked deeply into the stats of the four recognized bonjwa's, and also 3 contenders for the title who in my opinion all have or had some quality that puts them in contention for the title. I have established what I believe to be fair criteria which these 7 gamers have to meet in order to be recognized as bonjwa. Also sry about the spelling, english is not my native language.
The criteria:
1. You have to be considered a dominant player in your time, you have to have done something in your gaming career which distinguishes you from everyone else, preferably bring something new to the game, and therefore influence the meta-game,
2. During your prime, which has to last atleast 10 months or 80 played games you have to have a over 70% win record, and be over 60% in all individual race matchups(vt,vz,vp).
Slayers_Boxer
Still holding the Kespa ranked #1 all-time record with 17 months straight, probably the most influential gamer ever, single-handedly bringing terran from the title of being the inferior race in sc, to being the strongest, practically inventing micro, etc, etc, etc. There is no doubt about Boxer satisfying the first criteria.
As for the second, boxer went 31-9 (77.5% win rate) from 2001-02-16 to 2001-12-27- where he lost to Garimto in his 3. consecutive OSL finals (which BTW if you have read Boxer's autobiography you will see that Boxer should have taken, because Boxer focused the majority of his time preparing for the map Incubus which was to be played in the first and last sets. He came up with a build that focused on sending an early tank with a dropship in a small space between a ledge and some minerals, which could then deny Garimto's 1st exp with only that tank, and later it turned out that the version of the map that was played in the finals was different from the version that Kespa gave boxer to practice on in the sense that you couldn't fit a tank in that position anymore, and since he only practiced that build on that map he lost both times on it which cost him the Golden mouse). And i think it should be mentioned that the WCG is not in the TLPD stats, but i think it's worth mentioning in this period because the difference in skill between Koreans and the rest of the world in that time were very small to nonexistant. If you add the stats of the 2001 WCG where Boxer beat Elky in the finals his win rate goes up to over 80% in that 10month period
Even without his legendary status, Boxer passes the bonjwa test with flying colors.
Nada
What can there be said about this guy other then WOW! He has an all-time win/loss ratio of 59.58% and he's been around since 2002! He has played by far the largest amount of televized games :621 (W 370-L 251( in comparison Boxer's all time ratio is 253-206(55.12%))), owner of 6 starleague GOLDS, statistically the best player to have ever played this wonderful game.
Nada went 58-24 from 2002-02-14 to 2003-01-14 (70.73%)
iloveoov
1.Boxer's protege, an extremely skilled player who took the Terran torch from Nada, very dominant in his time, and very well known for his "Cheater" style with which he showed everyone the importance of macro.
2.oov went 77-26 (74,76%) from 2003-07 to 2004-07( before he got manhandled by July for the first time in the gillete OSL)
Julyzerg
1.July came on the radar in the 2004 Gillete OSL which he won (against Xellos in the quarters, oov in semis and Reach in the finals who took out Yellow in the other semis; (jesus christ now that was a tournament! talk about a royal roader!) He revolutionazed zerg play primarily by incorporating the muta-stack trick and with other tactics as well, he was Kespa ranked #1 for 11 months from April 2005( when he de-throned oov) to february 2006, and eventually won the Golden mouse.
2.Unfortunately while imo July passes the first criteria, he never had a 70% win record for more than a month or so, and he was always below 60% win rate either vz or vt so ultimately he flunks the bonjwa test (tears are falling on the keyboard as i write this)
Savior
1.Everybody remembers the Maestro era, unstoppable heavy-macro style, defilers...
2. Savior went 62-22 (73.81%)from 04-2006 to 02-2007 not really much more to say, he is a bonjwa all right
Flash
1.I put him in contention because in his dominant period people thought that he symbolises the end of the starcraft meta-game evolution. He was just a machine that just ate you up, and afterwards you couldn't really say what you did wrong, he played.. well.. perfectly.
2.Unfortunately, like July, Flash has never had a period of 10 months or 80 games in which he went over 70% win rate.
Bisu
1.People today seem to think he is bonjwa material, revolutionized pvz, the famous Savior beatdown in the MSL finals...
2.Bisu went 65-20 (76.47%)since 2008-10
Using only these criteria Bisu would join the bonjwa club, however there is one more thing that all 4 of the recognized bonjwa's had and which i think is a very big part of it like Letmelose emphasized, and that is starleague titles.
3. criteria:
During his period of dominance, a bonjwa has to win atleast 4 major starleague titles.
In Boxer's 10 months dominance period he won 2 OSL's, 1 MSL, and the 2001 WCG which by all means should be taken into account as competition was atleast as tough as his first OSL( in Boxer's biography he states that his biggest challenge in up to that point was the WCG) and also i dont think any Koreans except Boxer ended up in the first five spots back then.
Nada won 3MSL's and 2 OSL's from 2002-02-14 to 2003-04-06 with (70.69% win rate).
Oov got 3 MSL's and a OSL in his dominant time ( of which the duration is stated above)
Savior also had 3 MSL's and a OSL in his b4 mentioned time
On the other hand Bisu only has an MSL and the Gomtv season 2 under his belt in his „peak“ time, so he fails the third criteria.
In conclusion, Bisu already has 4 major league titles altogether, so if he took this OSL, beat Jaedong convincingly in the Gomtv event, and kept his win percentage higher than 70% for a month or two more, i wouldnt have any serious objection to him being considered bonjwa. But lets say he manages to take this OSL and the next OSL or MSL. He would then be in competition for the best player ever (with Nada) with 6 major league titles, and over 70% win ratio in about 100 games played, imo he's the last one who has a chance to do something simillar.
Anyway lets not get ahead of ourselves, Bisu has the potential but he is definetly not there yet.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
This bonjwa thing is funny.
However, Bisu is #1 world #1 protoss #1 protoss all time right now.
So... what more you want him to be?
I think Bisu would laugh at this because its pointless.
He is the best right now.
That's what matters - not some word.
He makes the money, he is in the spotlight, hell - he's playing even better than Jaedong and Flash atm (for the first one it might change tomorrow).
I don't care if he's a bonjwa a weedsmoker an asshole or whatever u want him to be as long as he keeps on entertaining & amazing me so much with his play.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
Only quoting the part of Letmelose's post I deem the most relevant:
On February 28 2009 04:37 Letmelose wrote:
Domination at "bonjwa level" isn't cherry picking some cute facts about your favourite player and arguing for his "bonjwahood". It's pretty much being the best at everything. Winning more titles than your rivals, being the best player of your team and the entire scene by some distance, having better winning percentages - the usual.
Like fusionsdf mentioned, I think people on this site have varying opinions on what a bonjwa is, whereas people on Korean communities more or less came to the conclusion that it's about complete domination over fellow progamers for a certain length of time more than anything else. Of course, since the phrase has no concrete definitition, maybe this is the beauty (or horror) of the whole thing. In my opinion, Bisu has already succeeded in being a protoss legend, but his relative superiority compared to his rivals is simply way too putrid to call him a bonjwa.
I very much agree with this. Bonjwa isn't about some pattern or percentages. It's not about which and how many leagues a player wins and what his winning percentage are (although you can obviously not be a bonjwa without winning titles and a 50% win ratio). Those may be interesting to look at and the similarity of former bonjwas in those aspects may be noteworthy, but in the end it's not what made them bonjwas.
What made them bonjwas was their absolute dominance in playstyle. Sure, no player will ever win all his games, but against the bonjwa you always play the uphill battle. When your favourite player has to play the bonjwa you expect him to lose (you can't believe the frustration I felt after every match oov had to play against Savior -.-) and when he wins you're surprised and happy (anyone remember how Savior was expected to utterly destroy Bisu in MSL finals? lol). You are in constant fear of your player having to face the bonjwa. There is a decent amount of players who maybe wouldn't be the favourite to beat Bisu in a Bo5 right now, but who would have a fair chance. I dare you to give me a list of players who would have had a fair chance to beat oov or Savior in a Bo5 in their respective prime and then compare the scope of that list to a list of players who would have a fair chance to beat Bisu in a Bo5 right now.
Is Bisu a bonjwa? To me he is not and I don't think he should be to anyone. Will he ever be? Probably not. Will any other player ever be? Probably not either, not for the foreseeable future anyway.
On the other hand - is Bisu the best player at the moment? Maybe (probably actually). But even if he is, it's only by a very slight margin, players like Jaedong and Flash are at least very close behind. That wasn't the case when NaDa, iloveoov and Savior truly reigned. It was them being clearly far ahead of the rest, them at #1 and then a lot of void.
That being said I'm sick and tired of this whole fucking stupid bonjwa thing being repeatedly discussed over and over again. I don't remember in which thread I saw this and who said it (was today though, I think), but the mere fact that this is discussed so much clearly (more than anything else) hints towards Bisu not being a bonjwa, because when iloveoov or Savior were bonjwas no one even considered to discuss it - it was taken for granted by everyone who had any idea at all about the pro scene.
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On March 01 2009 10:29 Carnac wrote:
the mere fact that this is discussed so much clearly (more than anything else) hints towards Bisu not being a bonjwa, because when iloveoov or Savior were bonjwas no one even considered to discuss it - it was taken for granted by everyone who had any idea at all about the pro scene.
not going to enter the actual debate of whether bisu is or is not _insert label_, but just wanted to comment on this part of what you said.
i'm not sure if either of those guys had as large and passionate an antifan group. i vaguely recollect iloveoov was pretty despised, so maybe he did. but it didn't seem like savior had quite as large and vocal an antifan following.
one theory on this could be that anytime the dominant player is dethroned, his fanbase will be resentful of the successor. because afaik iloveoov didn't have a huge fanbase there wasn't a huge tidal wave of resentment directed at savior for dethroning him. [note: did savior dethrone iloveoov? now that i think of it i'm not even sure savior had to dethrone anybody.. all the more reason for why he might've had a lesser backlash]
however, MJY's following was supermassive, and so it'd make sense if a huge part of the community would be more likely to balk at any bisu coronation than occurred for previous coronations.
just a theory anyways, that we should pay attention to things like fanbase dynamics when we use arguments like "this players coronation is being more heavily debated than past coronations". again, not saying this proves bisu is X or Y, just addressing that one particular angle you raised
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
I dunno, I just know that I hated Savior back then, because I loved oov t_t
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United States47024 Posts
At this point, I really don't care about the debate whether or not Bisu is a bonjwa. I do know that he is the best Protoss player to ever play the game, and that's good enough for me.
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+ Show Spoiler +So today Jaedong beat Bisu in the GOMTV championship series. I'm quite surprised that I'm the first to mention that this adds to the "defeating a rival" requirement of the bonjwa in the final OSL. Anyway when I watched the results... eek.
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yeah, u also forgot to mention
+ Show Spoiler +The prophecy that if bisu wins 2 games then he would win the entire set was also broken, sad, i was cheering for bisu actually
On the other hand, i have to agreed on what carnac said, a bonjwa is not the player u liek the most, is not the player u would liek to have in your team, it is the player that u do not want the other team to have. It is someone who has 99% win ensurance, and everyone is afraid of. I dont think Bisu has those atributes. If he were in my oponents team, id just send my best player, instead of saying,"aww shit heres bisu, he will certanly do an allkill", just what used to happen with oov,savior,nada. _______,,,_\º,º/_,,,____
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Predicting Stork would go 0-2 in the tiebreaker was kind of a bad call but none the less excellent writeup.
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EPT
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