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Lost Saga MSL - Week 1

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Lost Saga MSL - Week 1

Text byManifesto7
January 19th, 2009 06:40 GMT
[image loading]

This banner done by Tadzio! Vote for your favorite MSL banner below.


The new season of the MSL is underway, and that means TL coverage is kicking into gear. Because VODs and results are so easy to find, and are much quicker than the news, we are going to take a different approach this season. Each play day will be analyzed by three writers, one from each race. The writers will give you their insights on how the game play of each of their races evolves over the course of the tournament.

Breaking down the zerg, we have zulu_nation8. For protoss, our very own Kwark. And for terran, you are stuck with me.

I hope you enjoy this MSL season. Please leave any feedback you have about the style of reports, and things you want added.

- Mani



Game recaps: Group A

The first match for the Lost Saga MSL was the highly anticipated rematch between Savior and Bisu. It was Savior who famously told Bisu to "challenge me when you have three MSL titles". Well, Bisu won his third and promptly set himself up against Savior in the first round. As the TL forums blazed with anticipation, Savior took down Bisu in a tightly contested battle on Neo Harmony. He then trounced Zero to qualify for the round of 16. Meanwhile Bisu took care of Magma in the losers match, simultaneously giving him breathing room and shutting up the acorn king. In the final match on Destination, a critical micro mistake cost Bisu his fleet of corsairs and delayed his storm tech. Zero showed incredible muta micro, picking off high templars with reckless abandon which emboldened his hydra army. In a shocking turn of events, Zero emerged from his booth victorious as Bisu stared blankly at the screen.

(Z)sAviOr and (Z)ZerO advance from group A.

Game Recaps: Group E

Yellow[arnc] had no problem advancing through this group, taking out both UpMagic and the new zerg darling by.hero. Much struggled mightily, going 0-2. One has to wonder how much BW is left in him, as he is not showing very good form these days. The final match came down to the Bisu slayer by.hero and UpMagic. The eStro terran showed an ingenious build, and by.hero was left floundering (more on that later).

(Z)YellOw[ArnC] and (T)UpMagiC advance.


This week was all about Savior vs Bisu. Here is zulu's report on this game, an extremely well written and thought out analysis.

For the swarm - by [image loading] zulu_nation8

From the confident execution of his aggressive opening build to the killer instinct exhibited by his excellently timed mid-game hydra drops, Savior, if only for one game, evoked the kind of strategical readiness and psychological dominance only seen during the pinnacle of the Maestro's career.

The buildup to Ma Jae Yoon's zergling attack starts with Savior spawning a very early extractor at 13 supply right after laying down his 3rd hatchery. For both the reasons of to discourage Bisu from building more than one cannon and to carefully nurture his early economy, Savior chooses to produce drones with his initial three saved larvas. The early gas allows for an earlier than usual lair followed by a deceptively quick zergling speed upgrade. When Bisu’s probe dies he sees eight zerglings, however it seems Bisu does not react until his scouting zealot sees another two zerglings hatching from Savior’s expansion. It is perplexing as to why Bisu does not play more conservatively on New Harmony which has a very open natural choke; perhaps due to a combination of lack of preparation and over-confidence.

When Bisu does react, he only adds one cannon, which quickly gets dismantled by Savior’s incoming rush of zerglings. Bisu’s ensuing loss of workers heavily delays his reaver and shuttle upgrades, which in turn provides Savior precious time to rebuild his economy and prepare a defense. Savior’s early lair + spire + scourges deny Bisu’s corsairs from scouting, thus leads to Bisu upgrading +1 air in fear of mutalisks and attempting to regain air control for shuttle harass. When Bisu’s first reaver and shuttle come out, he can not harass right away as he would be vulnerable to a hydralisk break. He attempts to expand but is stopped by Savior’s burrowed units. Meanwhile Savior upgrades +1 range and expands once more to 6 hatcheries, 3 bases total. He has burrow for both scouting and defense vs sair/reaver. Savior does not show any aggression but invites Bisu to harass, which Savior knows is the only thing Bisu can do at this point of the game.

Bisu’s subsequent attacks do little damage as he tries to simultaneously kill Savior’s 3rd expo with zealots and harass Savior’s 2nd expo with reavers. Meanwhile Bisu’s expansion is being severely delayed as for some reason, he does not expand at the same time he attacks, most likely assuming Savior still has burrowed units at Bruce Lee’s preferred expo location. Under normal circumstances, Bisu’s 3rd base would be running by now. But because it’s not, Bisu lacks gas which limits and delays his high templar count, therefore preventing him from engaging Savior’s hydra force head on.

Bisu attempts to expand again, but just as he seems to be clawing his way back into the game by safely securing the 2 o’clock expo. Savior somehow pulls off a massive hydra drop right under Bisu’s nose. It could very well have been luck that Bisu did not scout the drop with his corsairs, but whatever the cause, everything is going Mae Jae Yoon’s way. The drop, a brilliant move, attacks Bisu’s worst defended location. It further delays Bisu’s expansion attempt and at the same time strips Bisu of the little gas consuming, high tech units he has. During the drop Savior lowers Bisu’s sair count considerably through smart scourge placement, seeing another open opportunity for harass, Savior proceeds to mass mutalisks to cause more havoc. The pattern of drop to sair sniping to muta harass, whether fully planned by Savior or not, is ingenious. The mid game main drop, if successful, subdues the Bisu build’s aggressive harass by counter harassing where protoss is the weakest. When toss' sair army weakens to the point that mutalisks no longer has to avoid it, high templars become free kills to muta harass, as Zero later demonstrates in the group's final match. Bisu, upon seeing his main getting torn to shreds, has no choice but to counterattack. Savior responds by brilliantly scourging Bisu’s obs to buy time while taking apart the last buildings Bisu has remaining.

The entire game, Savior never engaged Bisu’s main army but instead, slowly chipped away at his economy and high level units through various methods of harass. The Maestro's strategy was effective, and his execution was precise. Bisu on the other hand seemed content to play the same sair/shuttle harass style he has become known for, and lost to By.Hero several days earlier with. The story of a determined, well prepared Savior versus a stubborn, and ultimately unlucky Bisu; The first game of the 2009 Lost Saga MSL hints at the arrival of a new era, or even paradigm shift within progaming. As the playoffs near and the true value of this game becomes clearer, we shall see what the future holds for Savior and the zerg race.


Now here is [image loading] Kwark's take on the same game, as well as some additional notes.

For Aiur - by Kwark

Neo Harmony is a new map and is currently 5-1 in favour of zerg over protoss. It is very difficult for a FE Protoss to establish a safe 3rd here. This means that a mobile zerg playing for map control rather than an aggressive win can simply starve the protoss out. The protoss player really must seize map control in the early midgame and maintain the momentum. Expansions can only be taken and held when the protoss player has a lot of threats keeping the zerg pinned down.

I'd judge this map to favour the FE into zeechon timing rush we've seen because the spread out expansions make a unified zerg defence difficult to maintain and a mass of protoss roaming the map covers the otherwise difficult to defend protoss expansions. I think extremely aggressive, macro orientated midgame play is what the protoss player needs to get into the late game in a good position. On a related note, I predict Best being very strong on this map. This is largely theorycraft and hindsight so we will see if time vindicates me.

Any timings referenced here are based off the nevake youtube vod of the game.

sAviOr opened hat pool hat with his 3rd hat going down at the 10 o clock nat rather than the much closer 6 o clock location. In doing this he forced the game to be played across the entire map instead of being localized. Against a large midgame army 10 would be dangerously isolated, being as close to Bisu's base as to sAviOr's, and defending it would leave his nat vulnerable. However, I believe sAviOr expected Bisu would try a subtler harassment based opening against which the isolation of the bases is an advantage for sAviOr. Bisu's opening was solid, cutting cannons as he saw sAviOr powerdrone. This allowed him to get a faster than usual gateway and a quick second gas, a very strong opening for a darksair or reaversair build. In a very sloppy lapse of concentration Bisu lost his first scouting probe to a few zerglings. Bisu realised that sAviOr was missing a hatchery and used his first zealot to scout it immediately at 10. Although he caught 3 defenseless drones there he failed to kill any as 2 zerglings fended him off.

sAviOr knew that Bisu had seen him powerdroning. He knew that Bisu had wasted his first zealot. He knew that Bisu had just lost his scout probe. He knew that Bisu liked his tech units. The sudden switch to a speedling rush at 7:20 into the vod was an excellent play and it decided the game. Bisu had 1 zealot, 1 dragoon, 1 cannon, 1 cannon on 90% done and 1 zealot 50% done. At 7:30 he had 12 zerglings against probes, 1 dragoon and a 80% finished zealot. That Bisu actually survived this is a testament to his absurd skill level although he was so desperate he actually maynarded some probes from his main to his nat to help defend. The attack left his economy in tatters while guaranteeing sAviOrs safety and thus allowing him to pump drones from the moment the last ling was made.

Bisu spent the rest of the game playing catch-up. His corsair arrived at the same time as scourge and did no damage. At 9:00 Bisu still hasn't even got a citadel, the most fundamental building for protoss map control, whereas sAviOr was shutting down sair play with his 2 gas scourge and has 5 hat pumping hydraling. The robo support bay finished only at 9:24 and the shuttle at 9:57.

Just to give you an idea of the economic damage Bisu took from the speedling attack, his robo finished at about 7:40 yet he did not start building his first reaver for over 130 seconds. There was nothing he could do. I could argue that he should have gone reavers faster instead of the corsairs because the corsairs had absolutely no offensive potential and without aggressive map control he was doomed. With 3 well saturated bases, 5 hats, hydra den and spire sAviOr could do what he liked. Bisu probably felt his only shot at actually surviving the next 2 minutes was to scout continually with sairs. This is all very well and good but it was quite simply not going to win. At 9:35 sAviOr expanded again and Bisu at this point had 5 corsairs, 0 shuttles, 0 reavers, 2 zealots, 1 gateway, and no citadel. There is no other way to describe this but over. Outexpanded, outmacroed and with a smaller army there was nothing he could ever have done.

The next 15 minutes were an exercise in extreme caution. sAviOr never attempted a head on attack against Bisu's nat, as there was no point. He had gained a game winning advantage and was simply playing to hold onto it. Every time Bisu tried to get some kind of offensive going sAviOr distracted him, countered at his expo attempts or dropped. sAviOr played to disrupt him, to distract him, to make sure he always had something more important to do than launch full scale attacks. The 15 minute point is a classic example of this, as it was Bisu's only real chance in the game to get something going. He had a decent sized speedlot force supported by sairs and reavers, with a 3rd base building, defended only by the aggression and momentum of Bisu's army. Savior, instead of defending and therefore giving up the initiative and letting Bisu expand to get back into the game, launched a small and utterly doomed drop against Bisu's main. Bisu was forced to bring his entire army back at which point a second group of hydra shut down his now undefended expansion attempt. While Bisu was being aggressive he could expand safely but sAviOr disrupted Bisu's game flow and prevented him gaining any momentum. It was quite frankly a boring game at this point. At the time of the drop Bisu's main was already pretty much mined, some crystals already gone completely and the others very nearly. sAviOr was waiting him out, tripping him up, disrupting him, buying time.

sAviOr didn't play this badly, but it was no masterpiece either. It was 3 hat speedling switch the moment the scout probe died. Entirely mundane and very effective if the protoss doesn't expect it. Bisu did very well to stay in the game but the damage was done and sAviOr never let him recover.

Other protoss game notes
- Against Magma Bisu did an excellent job using his storms on the zerg army and then backing off to limit his own losses. This weakened the lurker/ling army greatly.
- Also against Magma, Bisu chose wisely with his expansions, taking five oclock because it was more valuable to Magma, rather than out of any real intent of mining it.


The terran lineup featured only (T)UpMagiC this week (although this will change once we hit the all terran group!). This weak I will focus on his final game, against by.hero.

A Terran Nal_rA? - by Manifesto7

After getting crushed by Yellow[arnc] in the first game, UpMagic showed how misinformation can be an extraordinary weapon. The game opened on Destination with UpMagic in the south and by.hero in the north. Hero sent out an incredibly early scout, using his 9th drone. His next decision would be based upon what that drone saw, and that was nothing. Trundling into the terran main, the drone looked, looked, looked, and found no barracks. UpMagic was building it on the right side of his main, out of view.

This caused hero to not only pool first, but also pull four drones off of minerals and patrol the bridges leading to his natural in preparation for a bunker rush. Unfortunately for him, UpMagic had no intention of rushing. By the time he figured this out, UpMagic had gotten away with a one marine, one factory, one vulture, CC build. The advantage gained was incredible, and would allow UpMagic to dictate the rest of the game.

Now way behind, Hero put down a sunken and another hatchery at his natural to prevent vulture harass. However, his entire build seemed disjointed. He quickly got a lair and a spire, but never made any mutalisks. He was unable to scout the terran main despite having an overlord near the back door.

Rather than play catch-up, Hero went for a three-hatch hydra pump to break UpMagic's natural. This was an awful decision, as crossing the bridges with hydras versus tanks is suicide. UpMagic simply played defense and hero tapped out after his failed offensive.

With this game we saw the real magic in terran play, and how a simple missing building can cause game ending fear in zerg opponents.


Game of the week
Without a doubt, it is Bisu vs Savior on Neo Harmony. Enjoy once again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSY8-ROVO4M




As always, you can find VODs of all games on the VOD Tracker, or at the nevake YouTube channel. Keep up with all the stats in the TLPD.

Vote for the MSL banner this season! Choose from the following four designs:

A

[image loading]


B

[image loading]


C

[image loading]


D

[image loading]


[image loading]

Poll: Pick a banner!
(Vote): A
(Vote): B
(Vote): C
(Vote): D


Love the column, hate it, got a suggestion? Post it here!

Until next week,
Mani, zulu_nation8, and Kwark
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ModeratorGodfather
KOFgokuon
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States14893 Posts
January 19 2009 06:58 GMT
#2
sick stuff, interesting new format
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42673 Posts
January 19 2009 07:06 GMT
#3
My poor Bisu vs ZerO writeup . Although it could be summarised in 'Bisu's build was retarded and then he lost some sairs'. Wasn't really a very technical game.

On an unrelated note the topic index on the left seems to not be displaying the latest news for me. I only noticed this because I use the forum index.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
ChaoSbringer
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Australia1382 Posts
January 19 2009 07:09 GMT
#4
Great post, I loved the big parts from Zulu & Kwak!

As for banners, I like B, but would prefer it with the hat in the middle of Lost Saga from banner D.
p4NDemik
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States13896 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-19 07:24:43
January 19 2009 07:23 GMT
#5
Vote for banner D! I'm tired of the same old black and white banners.
Moderator
economist_
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Vietnam719 Posts
January 19 2009 07:26 GMT
#6
wow, I love this kind of report, very interesting.
AS for a banner, is that a medic in the first one? I like it but I am quite curious why you put it there :D
Economics forecast assumes everything, except responsibilities
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42673 Posts
January 19 2009 07:27 GMT
#7
I'd like B with the glowing letters of A.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
semioldguy
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States7488 Posts
January 19 2009 07:28 GMT
#8
I like Banner C personally, but D as well. They are refreshing new looks.

On January 19 2009 16:26 economist_ wrote:
wow, I love this kind of report, very interesting.
AS for a banner, is that a medic in the first one? I like it but I am quite curious why you put it there :D

That image of a medic is a unit from the Lost Saga game. Tadzio chose to put it in as it was one of the few (or only?) units that also had a Starcraft counterpart.
Moderator
Tadzio
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
3340 Posts
January 19 2009 07:29 GMT
#9
On January 19 2009 16:26 economist_ wrote:
wow, I love this kind of report, very interesting.
AS for a banner, is that a medic in the first one? I like it but I am quite curious why you put it there :D


It's the "medic" class from that Lost Saga game that's sponsoring the MSL.
clazziquai
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
6685 Posts
January 19 2009 07:38 GMT
#10
Banner D gets my vote.
Great writeup. I love TeamLiquid coverages.
I saw the Bisu vs Savior game and Savior is really stepping it up. I hope that he will continue at this rate. :D
#1 Sea.Really Fan / #1 Nesh Fan / Terran Forever~
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
January 19 2009 08:16 GMT
#11
I like B with the cowboy hat instead of the ninja and have the glowing effects of A.
Jaedong
Mista
Profile Joined January 2009
Singapore1022 Posts
January 19 2009 08:25 GMT
#12
damn bisu how did you lose
Time for some Revolution !
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
January 19 2009 08:45 GMT
#13
yay! go savior!
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
Perguvious
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States1783 Posts
January 19 2009 09:06 GMT
#14
There's four designs, not five. But if a fifth one is coming up...

<3
Kami
Profile Joined July 2008
United States127 Posts
January 19 2009 09:33 GMT
#15
I love the strategical insight. This is what starcraft is all about.
FLaSh_[sdm]
Profile Joined October 2007
South Africa32 Posts
January 19 2009 09:50 GMT
#16
An awesome new format! Well done and thanks for what is clearly a huge amount of work

What a spectacular game Savior vs Bisu - Savior will kill everyone in... um 2009!
Savior FTW!
sk`
Profile Joined November 2008
Japan442 Posts
January 19 2009 10:43 GMT
#17
That's the best damn play by Savior I've ever seen.
www.pureesports.com
emucxg
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Finland4559 Posts
January 19 2009 10:47 GMT
#18
I loved zulu's part.... very fun to read
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42673 Posts
January 19 2009 10:52 GMT
#19
On January 19 2009 19:43 sk` wrote:
That's the best damn play by Savior I've ever seen.

I find this hugely offensive. 3 hat ling rush is the best you've seen savior do? Jesus man. Watch the savior vs iris or savior vs nada or savior vs nal_ra. Anything!?!? God!
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
nataziel
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Australia1455 Posts
January 19 2009 12:51 GMT
#20
For those of us without easy (read: fast) access to vods, the old format was awesome. It takes me at least overnight to download a proleague match (the whole thing, not just one match lol). But I do like the new format a lot though, shows the games from a different perspective.
u gotta sk8
LemOn
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United Kingdom8629 Posts
January 19 2009 13:07 GMT
#21
On January 19 2009 19:52 Kwark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2009 19:43 sk` wrote:
That's the best damn play by Savior I've ever seen.

I find this hugely offensive. 3 hat ling rush is the best you've seen savior do? Jesus man. Watch the savior vs iris or savior vs nada or savior vs nal_ra. Anything!?!? God!


Yeah lol. How can you even compare this to Savior's Hive play in his prime lol. Bisu was sloppy and was rushed.

Back in the day, people were playing their very best epic games against Savior, and thats when he showed his geniality, killing everyone from disatvantageous positions using Hive units.

He had the sixth sense, was virtually uncheeseable and majority of his games was a lategame masterpiece.

That Savior is not back yet, as in this game he had advantage from start to end, and it seemed like he is just playing with Bisu when he gained advantage, as he did in his prime with low-tier oponents...
Much is the father figure that I miss in my life. Go Daddy! DoC.LemOn, LemOn[5thF]
gn0m
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden302 Posts
January 19 2009 13:22 GMT
#22
I love the new coverage format!
-_-
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3472 Posts
January 19 2009 15:03 GMT
#23
I loved the new format. Everyone is trying to be detailed with the analisis but at the same time they have so different styles and that is a big plus.
To the forced talk about the match of the week i got to say that savior made a great job. I think savior is back in the sense that he can play solid and mantain focus for a long game, he can predict his oponent and plan good moves beforehand. maybe the map made a difference but its clear to me that even with an early advantage two months ago the result of the same match would have been an epic comeback from bisu. I dont see savior dominating anyone or winning a starleague yet, but the mere fact that he fought for that early advantage is a symtom of recovery, i expect him to fight hard to recover his ZvT too.
Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
stevethemacguy
Profile Joined September 2008
United States137 Posts
January 19 2009 16:26 GMT
#24
Good rap up of Upmagic vs by.hero, that's how I saw the game too. But what about Much's games?
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity" -maximus decimus meridius
Physician *
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4146 Posts
January 19 2009 16:48 GMT
#25
D is so much better than the others.
"I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...."
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
January 19 2009 17:18 GMT
#26
man by.hero is an idiot, why the hell would he pool after lord AND send 4 drones out to defend air. Yarnc pulled out a pretty sick 2 hatch muta to lurker to hydra rush build that completely threw upmagic off balance.
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-19 17:31:53
January 19 2009 17:29 GMT
#27
banner D is for warcraft3 players seriously.

i voted B.
i'd like a mixture though, take some cool stuff (for example the hat) into B and maybe also abit glowing letters.. C and D is not enough starcraft for me.
nice writeup
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
January 19 2009 18:06 GMT
#28
Great writeup! Some pictures would be nice to accompany the strategy discussion....

And zulu's writeup read more like a battle report than a "strategy analysis" to me.

Love the new format, though! Keep up the good work, guys!
✌
Makhno
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Sweden585 Posts
January 19 2009 18:36 GMT
#29
Nice new approach, I like the way you emphazise the good games and just mention the worse games in the passing instead of writing battle reports for largely uninteresting games. This way is so much better, especially with the race-specific approach. Good work!
"If I think, everything is lost"
DreaM)XeRO
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Korea (South)4667 Posts
January 19 2009 19:10 GMT
#30
-sigh-
oh bisu
oh bisu

TTwTT
cw)minsean(ru
imperfect
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada1652 Posts
January 19 2009 20:37 GMT
#31
On January 20 2009 04:10 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
-sigh-
oh bisu
oh bisu

TTwTT
blind bisu free and anytime fanboy.
RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-19 21:30:59
January 19 2009 21:30 GMT
#32
great write up, I admit I am biased due to being a Zerg user/savior lover. But come on Kwark, you can't say savior played bad and just cheesed Bisu with the 3hatch ling. It was timing and scouting abuse on saviors part, he probably took everything into account like how he messed up the scouting, killed a zealot, and several other things in. Why shouldn't he have ling all-in'd it?

I just want you to remember one game too.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/8169_Bisu_vs_sAviOr/vod

This is the OSL game from around a year ago. sAviOr was up 1-0 in this series, this is the second game. + Show Spoiler +
sAviOr lost 1-2 in this

This was what happened when Bisu was in a huge disadvantaged situation around a year ago.

He won.
+ Show Spoiler [game summary from memory] +
Bisu does a standard FE on Katrina, which has the back expo. sAviOr expands and manages to drop kill Bisus expansion, leaving Bisu at one base having lost a nexus and everything he made at his back expo. sAviOr takes around 4 bases while trying to contain a bit. Bisu does some insane level of harassment and shames the best Zerg player in the world in his best match up and makes him look like a USEast pubbie.

The game ends with Bisu having 3base (iirc) sAviOr being knocked back down to 2, and a giant reaver/goon/zealot/archon/sair army coming down on savior about 18 minutes in after losing his natural expansion. It was the most depressing game I have ever watched. Worse than the FBH games.


I am not saying that sAviOr is the most amazing thing ever now, but I just want to say there was a point where Bisu would not have been stopped by the loss of 8 probes, a cannon, a goon, and 2 zealots. The Maestro played a very strong game there with his unit switches and his harassment, and he played it safe. He didn't all in and give Bisu the chance to come back, because that is what Bisu does. If you try to rush it he can turn every little thing against you and destroy your face like he did on Katrina.

If I remember, sAviOr attempted a hydra break after the initial drops which failed miserably.
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Seraphim
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States4467 Posts
January 19 2009 21:43 GMT
#33
I love this new format Awesome work :D
Hermes | Bisu[Shield] Fighting~!
a-game
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Canada5085 Posts
January 19 2009 22:06 GMT
#34
On January 19 2009 16:27 Kwark wrote:
I'd like B with the glowing letters of A.

same here
you wouldnt feel that way if it was your magical sword of mantouchery that got stolen - racebannon • I am merely guest #13,678!
RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
January 19 2009 22:16 GMT
#35
On January 20 2009 07:06 a-game wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2009 16:27 Kwark wrote:
I'd like B with the glowing letters of A.

same here

thirded.
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KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42673 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-19 23:09:19
January 19 2009 22:59 GMT
#36
On January 20 2009 06:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
great write up, I admit I am biased due to being a Zerg user/savior lover. But come on Kwark, you can't say savior played bad and just cheesed Bisu with the 3hatch ling. It was timing and scouting abuse on saviors part, he probably took everything into account like how he messed up the scouting, killed a zealot, and several other things in. Why shouldn't he have ling all-in'd it?

I just want you to remember one game too.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/8169_Bisu_vs_sAviOr/vod

This is the OSL game from around a year ago. sAviOr was up 1-0 in this series, this is the second game. + Show Spoiler +
sAviOr lost 1-2 in this

This was what happened when Bisu was in a huge disadvantaged situation around a year ago.

He won.
+ Show Spoiler [game summary from memory] +
Bisu does a standard FE on Katrina, which has the back expo. sAviOr expands and manages to drop kill Bisus expansion, leaving Bisu at one base having lost a nexus and everything he made at his back expo. sAviOr takes around 4 bases while trying to contain a bit. Bisu does some insane level of harassment and shames the best Zerg player in the world in his best match up and makes him look like a USEast pubbie.

The game ends with Bisu having 3base (iirc) sAviOr being knocked back down to 2, and a giant reaver/goon/zealot/archon/sair army coming down on savior about 18 minutes in after losing his natural expansion. It was the most depressing game I have ever watched. Worse than the FBH games.


I am not saying that sAviOr is the most amazing thing ever now, but I just want to say there was a point where Bisu would not have been stopped by the loss of 8 probes, a cannon, a goon, and 2 zealots. The Maestro played a very strong game there with his unit switches and his harassment, and he played it safe. He didn't all in and give Bisu the chance to come back, because that is what Bisu does. If you try to rush it he can turn every little thing against you and destroy your face like he did on Katrina.

If I remember, sAviOr attempted a hydra break after the initial drops which failed miserably.

I didn't say anything like that. I said the opposite. I said the scout probe died and sAviOr acted swiftly and decisively to win. It was nice. No where in anything I wrote did I say, or even suggest, that sAviOr played badly. I don't know where you're getting this but it's not from the words I used. In fact, your post is really confusing. You go on to list all the factors that I listed as being behind sAviOrs decision and then tell me that they justify sAviOrs play. Well done. You read my post. Good for you. I don't get how exactly you think reading my post, then telling yourself that's what you think, therefore what I think must be something other than what I wrote, therefore you need to inform me that actually what I wrote is what happened and not what..... I wrote? You're criticising the opposite of the post I made using all my arguments to agree with what I wrote in opposition to the post that I didn't make.


Also if Bisu won that game after the rush and I were CJ coach I'd B team him so fast. No player is that good. Watch the game again. Look at the citadel timing. Then tell me the game wasn't over. Seriously, Mondragon could win the game from that point. Chill probably could have for that matter. When a Protoss doesn't have jack shit for 10 minutes against a zerg player no amount of being Bisu changes the result. At 9:35 Bisu had 5 corsairs, 0 shuttles, 0 reavers, 2 zealots, 1 gateway, and no citadel. There is no other way to describe this but over. Outexpanded, outmacroed and with a smaller army there was nothing he could ever have done.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
SilverskY
Profile Joined September 2008
Korea (South)3086 Posts
January 19 2009 23:09 GMT
#37
Wow, the commentators were going absolutely nuts in the last 10 min or so. Such an entertaining game.
Graphics
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42673 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-19 23:13:54
January 19 2009 23:13 GMT
#38
On January 20 2009 06:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
You can't say savior played bad and just cheesed Bisu with the 3hatch ling. It was timing and scouting abuse on saviors part, he probably took everything into account like how he messed up the scouting, killed a zealot, and several other things in. Why shouldn't he have ling all-in'd it?

KwarK:sAviOr knew that Bisu had seen him powerdroning. He knew that Bisu had wasted his first zealot. He knew that Bisu had just lost his scout probe. He knew that Bisu liked his tech units. The sudden switch to a speedling rush at 7:20 into the vod was an excellent play.


"You can't say sAviOr played bad."
"The switch to a speedling rush was an excellent play."

"He probably took everything into account..."
Like the factors I listed him taking into account in my post and then you copy?!?!

Sigh....
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
SuperJongMan
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Jamaica11586 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-19 23:49:54
January 19 2009 23:49 GMT
#39
BANNER DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Nice essays guys.
POWER OVERWHELMING ! ! ! KRUU~ KRUU~
RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
January 20 2009 01:02 GMT
#40
On January 20 2009 08:13 Kwark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2009 06:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
You can't say savior played bad and just cheesed Bisu with the 3hatch ling. It was timing and scouting abuse on saviors part, he probably took everything into account like how he messed up the scouting, killed a zealot, and several other things in. Why shouldn't he have ling all-in'd it?

Show nested quote +
KwarK:sAviOr knew that Bisu had seen him powerdroning. He knew that Bisu had wasted his first zealot. He knew that Bisu had just lost his scout probe. He knew that Bisu liked his tech units. The sudden switch to a speedling rush at 7:20 into the vod was an excellent play.


"You can't say sAviOr played bad."
"The switch to a speedling rush was an excellent play."

"He probably took everything into account..."
Like the factors I listed him taking into account in my post and then you copy?!?!

Sigh....

lol yeah sorry I misread some of that, and I could of sworn I got the factors from Zulu's post :D


sAviOr didn't play this badly, but it was no masterpiece either. It was 3 hat speedling switch the moment the scout probe died. Entirely mundane and very effective if the protoss doesn't expect it. Bisu did very well to stay in the game but the damage was done and sAviOr never let him recover.


My post was mainly based on this quote which I misread, looking back on it, sorry kwark :D I read it as sAviOr played badly or something to that extent with making excuses for Bisu. I take it back :O
Be a man, Become a Legend. TL Mafia Forum Ask for access!!
Elvin_vn
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
Vietnam2038 Posts
January 20 2009 01:04 GMT
#41
Pls vote for D wtf
do not agrue with idiots, they will pull you down to their level and beat you with their experiences
Not_Computer
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada2277 Posts
January 20 2009 01:21 GMT
#42
Hehe, great read even though I already saw the VODs but it was nice to hear the strategy presented by another perspective. I also didn't really notice many of the decisions on part of Bisu and after reading Kwark's I thought, "oh yeah, that's true. didn't think about that. sucks for bisu" hehe

On January 19 2009 15:40 Manifesto7 wrote:
Choose from the following five designs:
A
B
C
D
"Jaedong hyung better be ready. I'm going to order the most expensive dinner in Korea."
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
January 20 2009 01:33 GMT
#43
kwark why would bisu need a citadel that early if he was going sair/reaver harass first
Sonu
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada577 Posts
January 20 2009 01:54 GMT
#44
On January 19 2009 19:52 Kwark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2009 19:43 sk` wrote:
That's the best damn play by Savior I've ever seen.

I find this hugely offensive. 3 hat ling rush is the best you've seen savior do? Jesus man. Watch the savior vs iris or savior vs nada or savior vs nal_ra. Anything!?!? God!


hey relax man.
"I really like this wall-in, because its not a fucking wall" - DAy[9]
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42673 Posts
January 20 2009 04:14 GMT
#45
On January 20 2009 10:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:
kwark why would bisu need a citadel that early if he was going sair/reaver harass first

Sair reaver was never going to kill an expansion or buy an expansion. The citadel is the building that marks his transition into the mass ground units which get him expansions. And it was far too late.
His reaver was late by about the same margin too.
I'm not saying he should have built them faster, I'm assuming he didn't have the minerals. I'm saying when they are that late it doesn't matter.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27149 Posts
January 20 2009 05:33 GMT
#46
On January 20 2009 10:21 Not_Computer wrote:
Hehe, great read even though I already saw the VODs but it was nice to hear the strategy presented by another perspective. I also didn't really notice many of the decisions on part of Bisu and after reading Kwark's I thought, "oh yeah, that's true. didn't think about that. sucks for bisu" hehe

Show nested quote +
On January 19 2009 15:40 Manifesto7 wrote:
Choose from the following five designs:
A
B
C
D

whoops, haha, yeah there was originally 5 in the poll.
ModeratorGodfather
MutaDoom
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1163 Posts
January 20 2009 08:41 GMT
#47
I'm goin' with the banner D, I'm lovin' it.
Amarxist
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States371 Posts
January 20 2009 15:01 GMT
#48
B with the TeamLiquid in a different font would be most ideal.
☺ ☻
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
January 20 2009 15:45 GMT
#49
This format is great, thank you for the work n_n

B.
Peace~
Yaqoob
Profile Blog Joined March 2005
Canada3323 Posts
January 20 2009 17:52 GMT
#50
I always will look forward to these news posts even if I did watch the game because I love reading strategic advice especially by Kwark
김택용 Fighting!
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
January 20 2009 18:18 GMT
#51
hey great stuff in the OP but just wanted to point out a typo for zulu: it's 6 hatches, 4 bases, not 3.

sorry but it's pretty important i think, plus you address it later by referring to the third and second expansions
manner
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
January 21 2009 17:48 GMT
#52
yea i thought of the natural and main as one base, oh well i can't edit it now
MyLovelyLurker
Profile Joined April 2007
France756 Posts
January 21 2009 23:48 GMT
#53
Hey Kwark can we have your analysis of Bisu vs Zero ? I'm sure I'm not the only one here who'd like to read it.
"I just say, it doesn't matter win or lose, I just love Starcraft 2, I love this game, I love this stage, just play like in practice" - TIME/Oliveira
OmgIRok
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Taiwan2699 Posts
January 22 2009 00:18 GMT
#54
the font for "teamliquid coverage" on the banners just kills it IMO. T__T

Why not use the same font as the Lost Saga
"Wanna join my [combo] clan?" "We play turret d competitively"
OmgIRok
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Taiwan2699 Posts
January 22 2009 00:24 GMT
#55
oh isn't a Terran Nal_ra basically boxer because nal_ra is the protoss boxer?
"Wanna join my [combo] clan?" "We play turret d competitively"
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42673 Posts
January 22 2009 15:00 GMT
#56
On January 22 2009 08:48 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
Hey Kwark can we have your analysis of Bisu vs Zero ? I'm sure I'm not the only one here who'd like to read it.

My full writeup of all 3 Bisu games.
+ Show Spoiler +
Game 1.
Bisu vs sAviOr.
Neo Harmony is a new map and is currently 5-1 in favour of zerg over protoss. It is very difficult for a FE Protoss to establish a safe 3rd on here. This means that a mobile zerg playing for map control rather than an aggressive win can simply starve the protoss out. The protoss player really must seize map control in the early midgame and maintain the momentum on here in my opinion. Expansions can only be taken and held when the protoss player has a lot of threat keeping the zerg pinned down in my opinion.
I'd judge this map to favour the FE into zeechon timing rush we've seen because the spread out expansions make a unified zerg defence difficult to maintain and a mass of protoss roaming the map covers the otherwise difficult to defend protoss expansions. I think extremely aggressive, macro orientated midgame play is what the protoss player needs to get into the lategame in a good position. On a related note, I predict Best being very strong on this map. This is largely theorycraft and hindsight so we will see if time vindicates me.

Any timings are based off the nevake youtube vod of the game.
sAviOr opened hat pool hat with his 3rd hat going down at the 10 o clock nat rather than the much closer 6 o clock location. In doing this he forced the game to be played across the entire map instead of being localised. Against a large midgame army 10 would be dangerously isolated, being as close to Bisu as sAviOr, and defending it would leave his nat vulnerable. However I believe sAviOr expected Bisu would try a subtler, harassment based opening against which the isolation of the bases is an advantage for sAviOr. Bisu's opening was solid, cutting cannons as he saw sAviOr powerdrone. This allowed him to get a faster than usual gateway and a quick second gas, a very strong opening for a darksair or reaversair build. In a very sloppy lapse of concentration Bisu lost his first scouting probe to a few zerglings. Bisu realised that sAviOr was missing a hatchery and used his first zealot to scout it immediately at 10. Although he caught 3 defenceless drones there he failed to kill any as 2 zerglings fended him off.
sAviOr knew that Bisu had seen him powerdroning. He knew that Bisu had wasted his first zealot. He knew that Bisu had just lost his scout probe. He knew that Bisu liked his tech units. The sudden switch to a speedling rush at 7:20 into the vod was an excellent play and it decided the game. Bisu had 1 zealot, 1 dragoon, 1 cannon, 1 cannon on 90% done and 1 zealot on 50% done. At 7:30 he had 12 zerglings against probes, 1 dragoon and a 80% finished zealot. That Bisu actually survived this is a testament to his absurd skill level although he was so desperate he actually maynarded some probes from his main to his nat to help defend. The attack left his economy in tatters while guaranteeing sAviOrs safety and thus allowing him to pump drones from the moment the last ling was made.
Bisu spent the rest of the game playing catchup. His corsair arrived at the same time as scourge and did no damage. At 9:00 Bisu still hasn't even got a citadel, the most fundamental building for protoss map control, whereas sAviOr is shutting down sair play with his 2 gas scourge and has 5 hat pumping hydraling. The robo support bay finishes only at 9:24 and the shuttle at 9:57.
Just to give you an idea of the economic damage Bisu took from the speedling attack, his robo finished at about 7:40 yet he did not start building his first reaver for over 130 seconds. There was nothing he could do. I could argue that he should have gone reavers faster instead of the corsairs because the corsairs had absolutely no offensive potential and without aggressive map control he was doomed but sAviOr had the capacity to do all sorts of funky shit. With 3 well saturated bases, 5 hats, hydra den and spire sAviOr could do what he liked. Bisu probably felt his only shot at actually surviving the next 2 minutes was to scout continually with sairs. Which is all very well but it was quite simply never going to win. At 9:35 sAviOr expanded again and Bisu at this point had 5 corsairs, 0 shuttles, 0 reavers, 2 zealots, 1 gateway, no citadel. There is no other way to describe this but over. Outexpanded, outmacroed and with a smaller army there was nothing he could ever have done.
The next 15 minutes were an exercise in extreme caution. sAviOr never attempted a head on attack against Bisu's nat, there was no point, he had gained a game winning advantage and was simply playing to hold onto it. Every time Bisu tried to get some kind of offensive going sAviOr distracted him or countered at his expo attempts or dropped. sAviOr played to disrupt him, to distract him, to make sure he always had something more important to do than launch full scale attacks. At 15:00 is the classic example of this. Bisu's only real chance in the game to get something going. He has a decent sized speedlot force supported by sairs and reavers and a 3rd base building, defended only by the aggression and momentum of Bisu's army. Instead of defending and therefore giving up the initiative and letting Bisu expand and get back into the game he launches a small and utterly doomed drop against Bisu's main. Bisu is forced to bring his entire army back at which point a second group of hydra shut down his now undefended expansion attempt. While Bisu was being aggressive he could expand safely but sAviOr disrupted Bisu's game flow and prevented him gaining any momentum. It was quite frankly a boring game at this point. At the time of the drop Bisu's main was already pretty much mined, some crystals already gone completely and the others very nearly. sAviOr was waiting him out, tripping him up, disrupting him, buying time.

sAviOr didn't play this badly, but it was no masterpiece either. It was 3 hat speedling switch the moment the scout probe died. Entirely mundane and very effective if the protoss doesn't expect it. Bisu did very well to stay in the game but the damage was done and sAviOr never let him recover.


Byzantium 2 is balanced so far but we've only seen 7 ZvPs on it. It favours ground based builds as it is very open and the bases are far apart in the corners. Darksair, zealot reaver or zeechon timing attacks into open macro warfare is the name of the game here.
Magma opened overpool speed and Bisu forge expand. Bisu abused the distance between the bases by going nexus then cannons while his probe delayed magma's expansion. Magma didn't actually bother rushing, knowing Bisu would stay safe against it, and instead keeping the scout probe from getting back into his main and eventually killing it. Magma did a very carefully fine tuned build, getting 100 gas fast for zergling speed and then taking 2 drones off to get a fast 3rd base at 3 and a fast lair. Bisu was unable to scout so played safe with 3 cannons, 2 zealots and a goon out before his sair finished. Bisu scouts no third base at mineral only and some speedlings heading towards him so added several cannons before eventually scouting the third base at 3. Bisu's build was extremely safe against most cheeses because the overpool speed into scout denial kept him entirely in the dark.
Bisu went for a slow, safe 4 gate speedlot +1 timing attack opening with some darksair play. This is good on this map but magma is well prepared for it and had 3 gas and lurkscourge. Bisu scouts intensively but keeps losing corsairs.
Bisu expands to the gas expansion at 9 because 12 is dangerously close to zerg and the mineral only is worth less. He uses his zeechon army to run round the map keeping threat high although it is entirely toothless and would never be able to destroy a zerg expansion. Keeping his army mobile in the middle he prevents zerg from expanding all over the map and protects his own expansions. Rather than fight the lurkling he engages it, storms all over it and then backs off, using the archons to fight a rearguard against the lings and getting a lot of kills for almost no losses. By the time observers are done his army reached a critical mass and he could engage Zeros lurkling in a straight fight, doing a lot of damage with a series of great storms while at the same time expanding again.
Bisu kept massing up large armies and forcing engagements with the zerg, keeping him from successfully expanding while at the same time taking 5. Taking 5 was an excellent play because it is the most valuable expansion Magma could take himself as 7 would be hopelessly exposed. Also as a main base it would be deciding if Bisu could hold it while any attack on it would leave Magma overextended. Magma held his own with a series of excellent plagues but took continual and heavy damage from Bisu's storms. Eventually he scouted 5 but after a swarmling attack failed due to darks he had to hit it with his full army. Bisu promptly traded it for 2 of Magmas 3 mineral rich expansions and started a switch to darksair. The darksair switch was incredibly clever. Both players were nearly mined out and had lost their newest and richest expansions, whoever held map control after the inevitable battle would win the game. Bisu fought a delaying action with his army and then broke out with darksair, surprising a starving zerg which had only just taken a new expansion and lacked the resources to adapt to this new threat.
Bisu played a very clever game. His aggressive midgame shielded his expansion across his corner of the map and his 5 o clock expansion left the zerg with no options. Leaving it meant the zerg could not expand across another corner of the map and would therefore starve. Attacking it left his current expansions vulnerable. Bisu forced Magma to trade the working bases of both players while tech switching to render the Magma's army obsolete.


Destination is the home of the zeechon timing attack and therefore I'd expect it here. It has shown a lot of straight up games and I believe it exaggerates the advantages of the stronger player because most cheeses are easily scouted and easily stopped on here. It is slightly Z favoured at 26-20 but not enough to be an issue (unlike it's T>Z lol).
Bisu scouted Zero doing a fast expansion to his third and did a fast nexus counter (although he still went forge before gate which confuses me). It was the ideal Bisu opening for him, an uninterupted progression to a 2 gas midgame in which he could get his core and second gas fast without needing more than one cannon. He also disrupted the zergs attempts to take his nat with his 3rd hat, forcing him to make a fourth there. Bisu went for a simultaneous citadel and stargate then to robo, sair and archives at once exploiting his fast second gas to go to darksairdrop. However he lost his first 2 corsairs to scourge while the zerg powerdroned 3 base 5 hatch 3 gas. Personally I feel his opening was overly complicated. Destination is a map that will favour Bisu playing like Bisu (or Stork for that matter) and by attempting to do something tricky he set himself behind. The darksairdrop was a huge investment in tech and effort and the result was underwhelming. The critical timing window for a standard straightup play had been missed and all Bisu had done was killed 4 or so drones for his efforts. Had he had corsairs to cover his dark drop then maybe it would have been effective, had he killed the main hatch it would definitely been worth it. But he risked his corsairs pointlessly and the entire gambit was an overcomplication of a game which a simpler strategy should have won. The situation called for Bisu to play like BeSt, instead he played like BackHo.
Transitioning into zeechon Bisu attempted to take a 3rd but struggled to defend against 3 gas pure muta combined with some fairly good micro on ZerO's part. A combination of 2 archons, 4 cannons at each base and a half dozen sairs had just secured him and allowed him to attempt an offence when a dozen excellently cloned scourge wiped out his entire sair fleet.
This is huge for two reasons. Firstly in purely material terms the cost of the units lost by each side favour zerg by 750/150 which is no small sum. Secondly it leaves Bisu's army vulnerable to muta harass, most notably stormer sniping. Archons cannot effectively stop stormer sniping against a player with good micro. ZerO produces a lot of hydralisks and makes a few more mutalisks to continually pressure the zealots and deal a lot of damage the moment the archons die in the fight against hydralisks.
Bisu is left with an awful lot of zealots, several archons but no storms yet against a huge army of mutahydra heading towards his third. He has enough zealots to clean up the hydra but without air support they're useless. In a desperate attempt to buy time he suicides two control groups of hydra against the zerg main which does save his third but sacrifices any map control and army supremacy he had. Bisu is forced to produce dragoons against the mutahydra army which are a rather poor solution to the problem as they are equally bad against both when not supported with a lot of stormers. Mutalisks inevitably snipe the stormers and the hydralisks simply move in and take the third and therefore the game.

Bisu's opening was strange and did not play to either to his strengths or the maps. His careless loss of corsairs early made his build impotent. However he was still in good shape and had a stronger army until the corsair snipe. Losing 6 corsairs at once meant his army, although larger, was not able to defend his third and therefore had to be sacrificed to save his third. And you simply cannot sacrifice 24 zealots for very little gain midgame without consquences.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
StormsInJuly
Profile Joined January 2009
Sweden165 Posts
January 24 2009 16:30 GMT
#57
I'm sad I missed the start of this, but I'm gonna start following it now. Also B is the best, so clean
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