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United States20665 Posts
On March 14 2008 01:37 BlackStar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2008 00:20 Last Romantic wrote:
Technically yes, macro is not just the mechanic part; however handspeed should still have to be insufficient to do both macro and micro except at the highest levels. It's not hard speed. It's mental speed. A pianist or super typist doesn't play with 220 APM. And someone who does isn't also a great pianist or typist, etc.
Well certainly mental speed is involved. But in SC1 you have to make the choice with your limited handspeed - am I going to macro more at the cost of weaker control? Or am I going to micro intensely but risk missing a depot or two?
In SC2 there's no such distinction. You can macro and micro near-flawlessly with relatively little effort - I found myself devoting 70% of my APM to micro, 5% to macro, and 25% to.. fiddling around and making patterns with my zealots.
Sure, you still have to make mental choices - expand, push, make more gates, how many workers, what am I going to use my larvae for - but when you've chosen, the execution is too easy. In that regard it's much like war3 - macro is really simple, and you have all the time in the world to micro.
Granted, the micro is faster-paced, as is the whole game - but multitask is less important.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
Nice write up!
A long time ago I remember playing the in-house alpha wow that was leaked and some guys that actually managed to run it in a server - it really looked like an "alpha" too with more than 90% of everything missing - not this though - this sc2 alpha is way ahead. If this is the SC2 alpha, can you imagine what the final product will be? Drooling. I kind of miss it when Blizzard wasn't that cautious but I understand why they are aiming for perfect. I mean the expectations out there are so great that it has to be real tough to work with. Amazing how much pressure one 10 year old game, our old Brood War, can still exert on it's future offspring!
Making it in the RTS world, and bringing new things to the table at the same time, has got to be the toughest game development challenge. It has to be a great feeling, albeit mixed, for the guys at Blizzard that the only ones out there to compete with them, are it's own creations.
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Last Romantic, I mean that APM is mental. It has not that much to do with having fast hands or not.
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Good job and nice read. I loved the insight.
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United States20665 Posts
On March 14 2008 03:31 BlackStar wrote:
Last Romantic, I mean that APM is mental. It has not that much to do with having fast hands or not.
Perhaps there isn't that much 'true' APM difference between sAviOr's 250 and NaDa's 400, but with SC2 as it is, there's not that much difference [on a pure mechanical macro standpoint] between me and iloveoov. I don't think that's right.
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On March 13 2008 15:08 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2008 15:06 zer0das wrote:Personally I find it hilarious that the zealots had purple psi-blades ala Mace Windu in that one screenshot. It'd probably be a little distracting in a real game though.  Well Browder's the one mainly pushing for team-colored Protoss. His rationale is that he wants PvP games to not be confusing. Didier wants to keep it similar to SC1. I tossed in favor of keeping it SC1; currently PvPs aren't that confusing.
as long as they keep the majority of it blue and then have peripheral bits that can have team color, they can appeal to both sides: keep it blue, but stil have sufficiently visible differentiating color.
In SC1, there was hardly any difference between archons. like someone said if they made "electrons" that orbitted the archon, or maybe the archon body itself, or even a peripheral flame whos team color was sufficiently visible, but not overwhelming the blue, i think it would be fine.
personally, i would like to see different psi colors. they can just make sure the red stays red, and not pink. purple.. well u can't do much about that, but it's nice to hear they're at least considering psi colors now.
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On March 14 2008 03:38 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2008 03:31 BlackStar wrote:
Last Romantic, I mean that APM is mental. It has not that much to do with having fast hands or not. Perhaps there isn't that much 'true' APM difference between sAviOr's 250 and NaDa's 400, but with SC2 as it is, there's not that much difference [on a pure mechanical macro standpoint] between me and iloveoov. I don't think that's right.
I think there is some validity in saying that Bisu's PvZ style requires a LOT of apm to execute well and play against. I'd put 200 as a lower bound.
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i really admire you guys from TL working so hard to promote gaming. it really warms a gamers heart.
that being said.... i think they are going to use a lot from wc3...you start out with more drones, and you don't even have to split them from what i have seen. these are just examples from what we have to expect. BUT...i think we will find new ways to manipulate the mechanics. it might be, that we actually need that in order to focus on the new aspects of the game. but this is only right if they try to listen to the crowd. there will always be noobs. and there will always be noobs to play against for a noob...so they really don't have to make this an easy game to play. we need disingtion between player skill in order for it to be a game worth watching as entertainment. in wc3 you can't really see when a player has the upper hand easily...so it won't be as astonishing when the oponent turns it around..that's a consern of mine.
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United States7166 Posts
On March 13 2008 15:08 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2008 15:06 zer0das wrote:Personally I find it hilarious that the zealots had purple psi-blades ala Mace Windu in that one screenshot. It'd probably be a little distracting in a real game though. Well Browder's the one mainly pushing for team-colored Protoss. His rationale is that he wants PvP games to not be confusing. Didier wants to keep it similar to SC1. I tossed in favor of keeping it SC1; currently PvPs aren't that confusing.
I thought the new colors for protoss were kinda cool..and I also remember seeing some SC1games PvP games (didnt help that they were low quality video streams) that made it hard to tell what was what..when one P was offwhite and the other was white (or yellow?)
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thanks for reporting back agents.
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On March 14 2008 03:38 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2008 03:31 BlackStar wrote:
Last Romantic, I mean that APM is mental. It has not that much to do with having fast hands or not. Perhaps there isn't that much 'true' APM difference between sAviOr's 250 and NaDa's 400, but with SC2 as it is, there's not that much difference [on a pure mechanical macro standpoint] between me and iloveoov. I don't think that's right.
I think someone should stop replying to this thread and start finishing Part II of the update... 
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Very good read, cant wait for the next update
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United States7166 Posts
On March 14 2008 05:54 Gokey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2008 03:38 Last Romantic wrote:On March 14 2008 03:31 BlackStar wrote:
Last Romantic, I mean that APM is mental. It has not that much to do with having fast hands or not. Perhaps there isn't that much 'true' APM difference between sAviOr's 250 and NaDa's 400, but with SC2 as it is, there's not that much difference [on a pure mechanical macro standpoint] between me and iloveoov. I don't think that's right. I think someone should stop replying to this thread and start finishing Part II of the update...
I think you shouldn't be telling LR what to do. replying to our questions/comments/concerns is great.
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It's probably been discussed before, but how about optional MBS, which would satisfy everyone ? Simply being able to turn it off would create a greater,but necessary divide between noobs and real men.
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My heart is thumping, my thighs tightening, my fantasy unwinding. My excitement for this game is at an all time high, thanks LR and SoG!
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On March 14 2008 06:54 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
It's probably been discussed before, but how about optional MBS, which would satisfy everyone ? Simply being able to turn it off would create a greater,but necessary divide between noobs and real men.
Everyone would use MBS because it makes the game easier to play and everyone wants to win. Not using MBS would be like letting your opponent play with map hack.
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* However, he realizes that he has to add something to make macro comparatively difficult, and if he isnt able to, he is willing to cut out MBS. To paraphrase his words: if it dies, it dies.
Im so happy to read that
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why not custom colors,
WHAT IF I WANT PINK !?!?!
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On March 14 2008 07:31 MeriaDoKk wrote:Show nested quote + * However, he realizes that he has to add something to make macro comparatively difficult, and if he isnt able to, he is willing to cut out MBS. To paraphrase his words: if it dies, it dies.
Im so happy to read that
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EPT
