Stealth Elephants - Four Protoss advance to the winners semi-finals, securing places in WCS Asia
"It's all over! KeSPA is sooooo much better than the GSL players now!"
"No KeSPA players tonight? Not watching. I only watch for the elephants."
"Another victory for KeSPA! It's an elephant stampede!!!"
While everyone was busy hyping up the KeSPA players like they were the saviors of Starcraft 2, people were missing the real overarching storyline of this entire tournament. With the KeSPA players kicked ass in the loser's bracket, and everyone rushed to declare that Jaedong, Effort, and the rest were unstoppable super forces that would take Code S in no time, people missed the real super group in WCS Korea: Protoss.
For as long as Starcraft 2 has been out, there have been talks about how weak Protoss is. About how they had to be carried by a single player, MC, who was the only one of their race who could win a GSL. Now, in the summer of 2012, there is no question that Protoss is the strongest race in Korea. It's only happened twice before in a major GOM-sanctioned Starcraft tournament, but the final four of the WCS winner's bracket are all from the same race.
The past two times it was Terran dominating the brackets, once during the Super Tournament (Polt/MMA/TOP/MKP) and another time in the October season of Code S (MMA/Mvp/Happy/Ganzi). Seed, Parting, Creator and Squirtle are making history, making up for a year when MC was the only Protoss people believed had it in him to become a GSL champion. Now with Seed holding the GSL title, Creator destroying everyone in TSL4, and the Startale Protoss duo inching closer and closer to their first major title, the Protoss has a real chance of dominating 2012 like Terran in 2011.
Already guaranteed two of the top three spots in the tournament, there is a chance that the top five or even top six could be completely Protoss. Polt, Curious, and Alive are the best chances to stopping this from happening, but it seems unlikely that any of the current semifinalists would get knocked out by anyone coming from the losers bracket. The only top Korean Protoss missing from the equation is MC, but he forfeited after his first series to compete at IEM.
Seed's revolution continued, beating Polt, a player who was supposed to be his hardest non-Protoss threat in the tournament. He fell down early in the first game, having his DT's defended, but fought back even with a worse economy, relying on better map awareness, control and decision making. Having lost a game where he blew an advantage, Polt went for a weird all-in in the second game and got shutdown without hurting Seed in anyway. What was supposed to be the main event of the night turned out to be Seed telling the world to forget TaeJa, but instead look towards himself as the best player in the world. With his GSL championship, IPL team title, and his performance in this tournament, could you argue otherwise?
Creator turned sixteen a few days ago, and he gave himself a birthday present by beating Puzzle 2-0 and making it to the winner semifinals. Already making a huge name for himself in the current TSL4, getting to the semifinals without a single map loss, he is now making a strong case to be considered one of the best Protoss in the world. People have already been calling a top player for a while, impressed by his insane win rate on ladder and great record in online tournaments, but this is the first time he's been able to transfer his skills from the online circuit to the booth. Always being one of the best players in team league, this is his chance to win a major individual championship, get a seed in the Global finals, and lock himself in as the best U-18 SC2 player in the world.
For the Startale Protoss duo, they continued their strong performances. Parting had to feel the sting of a team kill for the first time, beating his teammate Curious in a sweep, and Squirtle fought off his old WeMade Fox temmate Roro to progress into the semifinals. Squirtle had a harder time than expected, having to make a comeback in third game against the only KeSPA player remaining in the winner's bracket, but he stayed calm and got through the series with only minimal injuries. Both Squirtle and Parting have been royal road candidates this year for Code S, but neither was able to grab the title. Parting got stomped by eventual champion of his season DRG, and we all know what happened between Squirtle and Mvp in their epic finals.
Looking at the final four, you would give the edge to Squirtle, stating how out of this world his PvP statistics are, but all four have shown good results in PvP lately. The lower bracket still houses some big names like mentioned beforehand, but it's going to take a real heroic effort out of a non-Protoss player to break into the top four of the tournament.
Speaking of the lower bracket, Rain won his rescheduled loser's bracket series against Jaedong to advance into the final twelve. Having the OSL group selections tonight, he was able to get his match moved back a day and didn't disappoint the schedule makers by delivering another strong showing. Jaedong is still green in some areas, and while he might be maturing at an insane pace, Rain showed that it might take a few more months until the Tyrant is at the place people expect from him.
With the victory, Rain now gets to face Curious for the second time. Only two weeks removed from his 2-0 loss to the Startale Zerg, it'll be interesting to see how far he has progressed in so little time. It will also be interesting to see how Curious will handle Rain, now having been able to see Rain play against him and other opponents. The KeSPA players are getting better, but they are also losing their mystique and giving GOM players the opportunity to scout out their styles as well.
A year ago, people would ask, 'Who is going to be the Protoss hope!?' Now, with this new era upon us, we're all going to have to ask ourselves, 'Who the hell has a hope against Protoss?' I hope you enjoy PvP, because we're going to be seeing a lot of in Korea until the Heart of the Swarm Beta comes out.
How poetic is it that Effort, a player whose most famous Brood War achievement is slaying God, is also the player who inflicted the most grievous wounds upon GomTV's pantheon? By dismantling DongRaeGu and Gumiho, he has earned Code S level respect from many.
For Effort's opponent and teammate, herO[Join], his accomplishments just don't measure up. He was only able to defeat YuGiOh and TAiLS, players who showed poor games and poor composure, deserving of being bottom eight in the entire tournament. At a cursory glance, the winner of this match should be a foregone conclusion.
Of course, things are more complicated than they initially appear. Let it be known that Effort came into this tournament with a 0 – 3 ZvP record in Proleague, and only added two more games to the loss column when he lost to Liquid's HerO. CJ_Hero is only 1 – 1 PvZ in Proleague, and his victory against YuGiOh might have come largely in thanks to his opponent's poor nerves, but that's still better than having a 0% win rate in the relevant matchup.
Protoss is still the dominating force in the KeSPA Proleague's SC II games, and they have a 32 – 24 advantage on Zerg right now. GomTV vs KeSPA matches have many complications to factor in, but in this KeSPA vs KeSPA duel, Protoss victory is an easy prediction.
Miya actually won a series in his supposed best match-up last week, beating ST_Hack to stay alive in the losers round. It wasn't the best performance ever, and Miya wasn't even that pleased in his interview, but it's still an important step forward for a player who has kept the faith of SlayerS' managemforwarent through several losses. He's a player who's expected to be great if he ever gets over his nerves issues, but there's still a ways to go for him to overcome his reputation as a choker.
One of his most high profile losses came against the opponent he will play tonight. Going up against FnaticRC in the GSTL, Miya was sent out as the first sniper against aLive. Even getting a favorable map pick for himself in Whirlwind, Miya looked lost and without a plan as aLive steamrolled through (Ryung would salvage the series for Slayers).
aLive looked like he was struggling a lot with TvZ after the queen patch, but GSTL Season Two allowed him to show that he had recovered his form significantly. Wins against BBoongBBoong, Monster, CoCa, and Miya showed he had figured out how to play the changed match-up where he couldn't rely so much on early pressure. aLive TvZ still isn't as impressive as his other match-ups, but he's definitely a strong player, or at least one who has shown he's better than Miya.
While we look forward to the day Miya's famed in-practice skills come to light in front of a live audience, his record so far tells us the winner of this match isn't hard to guess.
Two opposing forces are at work here. A) Reality's awful TvP that saw him somehow lose to Puzzle after he perfectly executed a counter-blink-obs build on Antiga and took an almost insurmountable advantage vs. B) HerO's nerves that returned against Soulkey, sapping 30%+ of his regular skill away.
There's something tragically funny about HerO's situation in this tournament. He overcame his nervousness in the GomTV booth and in international live events to become a good (though not exactly clutch) player, only to have yet something else to worry about get tossed at him in KeSPA players.
KeSPA players are improving week by week, so it would be surprising to see Reality blow a game as spectacularly as he did against Puzzle, but that match really left a bad impression. HerO's in the same region as Puzzle in PvT ability, and if they played ID-blind on ladder, HerO would be a big favorite to win. Now that he has played Soulkey and knows KeSPA players are just ordinary creatures of flesh and blood, and knows dumb comments on PlayXP can't actually jump out of his screen and punch him, HerO should be able to play much better. And even if he hasn't gotten over his nerves issues here, he should still be able to scrape out a win anyway, like he did against Soulkey last week.
Minor typo I caught: "What was supposed to be the main event of the night turned out to be Seed telling the world to forget TaeJa, but to towards himself as the best player in the world."
I assume you wanted to say "...look towards himself as the best..."
It's shaping up that we'll remember 2012 for Protoss as we remembered 2011 for Terran. We'll see though, even a dominant race needs some consistency, but most of the top 5-6 Protoss players have looked fairly solid for the entire year. I don't honestly see Squirtle, Creator, Parting, MC and Seed going anywhere soon (Seed maybe most debatable since he's still "fresh" to success this year). Hero's nerves means he's up and down from fantastic to ok.
Puzzle, Naniwa, Genius and San have also looked good at points this year, but they really need to show some consistency. Ehh maybe just recent results have poisoned my appreciation of these players. Naniwa and Puzzle having a bit of an average run atm. Genius and San I have no idea how good they are.
God if 'dumb comments on PlayXP (or on TL, reddit or anywhere else really) could actually jump out of a pro-gamer's screen and punch them' they would probably all be retired within seconds.
On August 21 2012 11:08 Porcelina wrote: God if 'dumb comments on PlayXP (or on TL, reddit or anywhere else really) could actually jump out of a pro-gamer's screen and punch them' they would probably all be retired within seconds.
Gogo HerO go! <3
If they could punch back no one would talk shit to Incontrol though
On August 21 2012 13:16 Dodgin wrote: I love me some Protoss domination.
I saw this mentioned in the LR but the Korean Protoss are starting to shape up like the Six Dragons of Brood War.
Squirtle, Parting, Seed, Creator, MC. Not sure who the 6th should be.
Hero.
Or Hero.
What are the 6 dragons of brood war? But I do dig that list of protoss so if they are like the gym leaders of Starcraft count me in!
6 dragons of broodwar are the 6 most dominant protosses of a certain period around bisu+stork, the 6 dragons are bisu, stork,best, kal, free and jangbi
6 dragons of liberty could be seed, MC, squirtle, parting, creator + genius, hero or puzzle, personally i think hero doesnt deserve it as he has shown inconsistency more than the other 7 mentioned players. probably goes to puzzle.
On August 21 2012 13:16 Dodgin wrote: I love me some Protoss domination.
I saw this mentioned in the LR but the Korean Protoss are starting to shape up like the Six Dragons of Brood War.
Squirtle, Parting, Seed, Creator, MC. Not sure who the 6th should be.
Hero.
Or Hero.
What are the 6 dragons of brood war? But I do dig that list of protoss so if they are like the gym leaders of Starcraft count me in!
Between late 2008 and mid 2009, Bisu, Stork, JangBi, Kal, Best, and Free were at the top of the KeSPA rankings and were the best Protosses, and the best players, by a decent margin. It wasn't necessarily that PvX was imbalanced either, because if I remember correctly, none of the other Protosses really could pull off any significant results. Legend of the Fall dude.
On August 21 2012 13:16 Dodgin wrote: I love me some Protoss domination.
I saw this mentioned in the LR but the Korean Protoss are starting to shape up like the Six Dragons of Brood War.
Squirtle, Parting, Seed, Creator, MC. Not sure who the 6th should be.
Hero.
Or Hero.
What are the 6 dragons of brood war? But I do dig that list of protoss so if they are like the gym leaders of Starcraft count me in!
Between late 2008 and mid 2009, Bisu, Stork, JangBi, Kal, Best, and Free were at the top of the KeSPA rankings and were the best Protosses, and the best players, by a decent margin. It wasn't necessarily that PvX was imbalanced either, because if I remember correctly, none of the other Protosses really could pull off any significant results. Legend of the Fall dude.
On August 21 2012 13:16 Dodgin wrote: I love me some Protoss domination.
I saw this mentioned in the LR but the Korean Protoss are starting to shape up like the Six Dragons of Brood War.
Squirtle, Parting, Seed, Creator, MC. Not sure who the 6th should be.
Hero.
Or Hero.
What are the 6 dragons of brood war? But I do dig that list of protoss so if they are like the gym leaders of Starcraft count me in!
Between late 2008 and mid 2009, Bisu, Stork, JangBi, Kal, Best, and Free were at the top of the KeSPA rankings and were the best Protosses, and the best players, by a decent margin. It wasn't necessarily that PvX was imbalanced either, because if I remember correctly, none of the other Protosses really could pull off any significant results. Legend of the Fall dude.
Never could find what's Legend of the Fall.
The belief that come autumn, a Protoss player will rise above his opponents and his race's troubled times, to capture a Starleague title. Garimto vs Boxer SKY 2001 Reach vs Boxer SKY 2002 OSL Anytime vs Boxer So1 OSL Stork vs Fantasy Incruit OSL Jangbi vs Fantasy Jin Air OSL 2011
There are more, but those are the only ones I could name from memory (and with some BW Index help) since they're all pretty famous OSL finals. And they're all the ones in which SKT1 Terrans have lost.
On August 21 2012 13:16 Dodgin wrote: I love me some Protoss domination.
I saw this mentioned in the LR but the Korean Protoss are starting to shape up like the Six Dragons of Brood War.
Squirtle, Parting, Seed, Creator, MC. Not sure who the 6th should be.
Hero.
Or Hero.
What are the 6 dragons of brood war? But I do dig that list of protoss so if they are like the gym leaders of Starcraft count me in!
6 dragons of broodwar are the 6 most dominant protosses of a certain period around bisu+stork, the 6 dragons are bisu, stork,best, kal, free and jangbi
6 dragons of liberty could be seed, MC, squirtle, parting, creator + genius, hero or puzzle, personally i think hero doesnt deserve it as he has shown inconsistency more than the other 7 mentioned players. probably goes to puzzle.
oz/hero/puzzle/genius all could fit, but honestly, it's just 5 dragons now.
Toss op!!! jk, but seriously this kinda makes all the random buffs and nerfs for z and t seem silly when toss has been a consistantly strong race for a long ass time and hasnt been changed since...amulet? Apparently maps are really important to balance, who knew?
On August 21 2012 13:16 Dodgin wrote: I love me some Protoss domination.
I saw this mentioned in the LR but the Korean Protoss are starting to shape up like the Six Dragons of Brood War.
Squirtle, Parting, Seed, Creator, MC. Not sure who the 6th should be.
Hero.
Or Hero.
What are the 6 dragons of brood war? But I do dig that list of protoss so if they are like the gym leaders of Starcraft count me in!
6 dragons of broodwar are the 6 most dominant protosses of a certain period around bisu+stork, the 6 dragons are bisu, stork,best, kal, free and jangbi
6 dragons of liberty could be seed, MC, squirtle, parting, creator + genius, hero or puzzle, personally i think hero doesnt deserve it as he has shown inconsistency more than the other 7 mentioned players. probably goes to puzzle.
oz/hero/puzzle/genius all could fit, but honestly, it's just 5 dragons now.
Sadly I agree. I wish there was a 6th but it just isn't meant to be at the moment. Maybe Oz will win OSL though, I always liked him for some complicated reason.
Nice that 4 of the 5 best Protoss are in the WRO4 though. I don't think these upcoming PvPs will be of much help when it comes to ranking them against eachother but I think the matches should be great (or atleast 10x better than the GSL finals).
On August 21 2012 13:16 Dodgin wrote: I love me some Protoss domination.
I saw this mentioned in the LR but the Korean Protoss are starting to shape up like the Six Dragons of Brood War.
Squirtle, Parting, Seed, Creator, MC. Not sure who the 6th should be.
Hero.
Or Hero.
What are the 6 dragons of brood war? But I do dig that list of protoss so if they are like the gym leaders of Starcraft count me in!
6 dragons of broodwar are the 6 most dominant protosses of a certain period around bisu+stork, the 6 dragons are bisu, stork,best, kal, free and jangbi
6 dragons of liberty could be seed, MC, squirtle, parting, creator + genius, hero or puzzle, personally i think hero doesnt deserve it as he has shown inconsistency more than the other 7 mentioned players. probably goes to puzzle.
oz/hero/puzzle/genius all could fit, but honestly, it's just 5 dragons now.
Sadly I agree. I wish there was a 6th but it just isn't meant to be at the moment. Maybe Oz will win OSL though, I always liked him for some complicated reason.
Nice that 4 of the 5 best Protoss are in the WRO4 though. I don't think these upcoming PvPs will be of much help when it comes to ranking them against eachother but I think the matches should be great (or atleast 10x better than the GSL finals).
On August 21 2012 11:04 HolyArrow wrote: Minor typo I caught: "What was supposed to be the main event of the night turned out to be Seed telling the world to forget TaeJa, but to towards himself as the best player in the world."
I assume you wanted to say "...look towards himself as the best..."
Thanks for the writeup as usual!
There's a ton of mistakes, but the guy writes a billion of these a week so let's cut him some slack
For the first time in a long time, I can't really see a dominant race. Yeah, protoss is winning a lot, but it really does seem like every race has a fair chance vs each other now.
I know we're calling protoss as winning a bunch, but let's just see what happens...... they don't exactly have the greatest track record in major tournaments.
On August 21 2012 13:16 Dodgin wrote: I love me some Protoss domination.
I saw this mentioned in the LR but the Korean Protoss are starting to shape up like the Six Dragons of Brood War.
Squirtle, Parting, Seed, Creator, MC. Not sure who the 6th should be.
Hero.
Or Hero.
What are the 6 dragons of brood war? But I do dig that list of protoss so if they are like the gym leaders of Starcraft count me in!
6 dragons of broodwar are the 6 most dominant protosses of a certain period around bisu+stork, the 6 dragons are bisu, stork,best, kal, free and jangbi
6 dragons of liberty could be seed, MC, squirtle, parting, creator + genius, hero or puzzle, personally i think hero doesnt deserve it as he has shown inconsistency more than the other 7 mentioned players. probably goes to puzzle.
I'd say MC, Squirtle, Parting, Creator, Seed for sure. The 6th is really shady though. I think whoever wants it will really have to fight for it (not directly, just through good showings).
There are some problems with the nominations you chose. Genius, HerO, and Puzzle each have various things that prevent them from becoming the 6th dragon. The problem with Genius is that he's talented but unmotivated, the problem with HerO is that he can be inconsistent at times, and the problem with Puzzle is.. well, I would say that there was none before, but recently he's seemed a lot weaker.
Other nominations include Alicia (People always seem to forget about him because he hasn't really showed any strong showings except at MLG, which is remarkable but hasn't translated to the GSL booth yet), Oz (he showed his former strength at MLG where he got top 4 I believe), YongHwa (Artosis' Protoss man crush, inventer of the 3 Stalker rush, I just wish he could qualify for GSL...), and JYP (if he can get past his PvT hurdle then he could be certainly considered one of the 6 dragons)
On August 21 2012 23:16 Gruntt wrote: For the first time in a long time, I can't really see a dominant race. Yeah, protoss is winning a lot, but it really does seem like every race has a fair chance vs each other now.
I know we're calling protoss as winning a bunch, but let's just see what happens...... they don't exactly have the greatest track record in major tournaments.
This year in GSL, four out of six GSL finalists have been Protoss. Seed won GSL Season 3 and Season 2 should have been won by Squirtle (his choking that hard in Game 7 shouldn't mean that we ignore the fact that he should have won that GSL). The semis of WCS Korea is completely Protoss. In the KeSPA StarCraft 2 competitions, Protoss is by far the most dominant race. And remember, this is all at the highest level of play; as far as I know Protoss has some of the highest winrates all across different leagues on ladders.
When Terrans were dominating this much, every strategy that presented itself immediately got nerfed within the month. So I think it's fair to say what we should all be expecting next patch... + Show Spoiler +
Here are the 2012 statistics for the players people have been talking about (in order by Korea TLPD Winrates):
NaNiwa: Korea - 21 wins - 12 losses (63.64%) International - 45 wins - 45 losses (50.00%)
Squirtle: Korea - 75 wins - 45 losses (62.50%) International - 65 wins - 48 losses (57.52%) 2nd IPL4 4th Red Bull Battlegrounds -Austin 2nd GSL Season 2
Creator: Korea - 49 wins - 31 losses (61.25%) International - 83 wins - 42 losses (66.40%)
Puzzle: Korea - 50 wins - 32 losses (60.98%) International - 76 wins - 44 losses (63.33%)
Seed: Korea - 57 wins - 38 losses (60.00%) International - 10 wins - 4 losses (71.43%) 1st Place GSL Season 3
Hero: Korea - 36 wins - 24 losses (60.00%) International - 138 wins - 82 losses (62.73%) SF GSL Season 2 1st IPL Fight Club at Hot Imports Night
MC: Korea - 37 wins - 26 losses (58.73%) International - 172 wins - 95 losses (64.42%) 1st HSC IV 1st IEM Season IV Championships 1st Red Bull Battlegrounds - Austin 3rd HSC V 3rd NASL Season 3 2nd GSL Season 3 2nd ASUS ROG Summer 2012
Genius: Korea - 41 wins - 30 losses (57.75%) International - 42 wins - 20 losses (67.74%) 2nd Place GSL Season 1
PartinG: Korea - 35 wins - 29 losses (54.69%) International - 55 wins - 46 losses (54.46%) SF GSL Season 2
Oz: Korea - 35 wins - 33 losses (51.47%) International - 74 wins - 60 losses (55.22%)
Looking at that, I would say Squirtle, MC, Seed, HerO, Creator, and Genius/PartinG.
On August 22 2012 02:56 CoR wrote: marineking not even QUALIFIED MVP forfeit ...
when the best terrans do THIS well, the reason protoss is top4 is not that p is to strong but t are just not THERE !
One could argue that the reason why Protoss used to do so poorly was because they were not in Code S and the format made it almost impossible to displace Terrans already in Code S. And yet there still were nerfs and buffs that helped Protoss and hurt Terran...
On August 22 2012 02:56 CoR wrote: marineking not even QUALIFIED MVP forfeit ...
when the best terrans do THIS well, the reason protoss is top4 is not that p is to strong but t are just not THERE !
One could argue that the reason why Protoss used to do so poorly was because they were not in Code S and the format made it almost impossible to displace Terrans already in Code S. And yet there still were nerfs and buffs that helped Protoss and hurt Terran...
I disagree with that argument. Back in the era of Terran domination, Protosses in Code S lost way early on, and also kept on losing in the Up/Down matches against other races. If Protoss was truly strong all this time as you seem to be implying, then the few Tosses in Code S would have at least performed well and we'd have a steady stream of new Toss players rising from Code A, both of which were clearly not the case. And let's not forget that Toss is the only race that went well over a year without a GSL win. In the past, it was a combination of a lack of good, MC-caliber players, and the race being overall a bit weak that was the cause of Toss performing so badly.
On August 22 2012 02:56 CoR wrote: marineking not even QUALIFIED MVP forfeit ...
when the best terrans do THIS well, the reason protoss is top4 is not that p is to strong but t are just not THERE !
One could argue that the reason why Protoss used to do so poorly was because they were not in Code S and the format made it almost impossible to displace Terrans already in Code S. And yet there still were nerfs and buffs that helped Protoss and hurt Terran...
I disagree with that argument. Back in the era of Terran domination, Protosses in Code S lost way early on, and also kept on losing in the Up/Down matches against other races. If Protoss was truly strong all this time as you seem to be implying, then the few Tosses in Code S would have at least performed well and we'd have a steady stream of new Toss players rising from Code A, both of which were clearly not the case. And let's not forget that Toss is the only race that went well over a year without a GSL win. In the past, it was a combination of a lack of good, MC-caliber players, and the race being overall a bit weak that was the cause of Toss performing so badly.
I'm actually saying Terran was really strong then and that Protoss is really strong now. Tournament results happen to support both of those claims. The post I quoted is trying to make the statement that Protoss is not strong, but rather it is because the best Terrans are not in the tournament that Protoss is doing well. And yes, back then Protoss players did lose early on; now Terran players are losing early on. There's only one Terran left in WCS Korea and over half of the players left are Protoss.
Also, I think it's fair to say that the race was never "weak" as you say, but rather that Protoss players did not actually use the arsenal in front of them. How long did it take before Warp Prisms started to be used? How long was it before a-move Colossi tech was occasionally replaced with the slightly more micro-intensive Templar Tech? And what happened when Protoss players actually started using those things? The reasons why Protoss used to do badly had nothing to do with how "weak" the race was, it was how poorly people were playing it. When all you do is one or two base Warpgate/Robo based attacks (and of course the occasional DT rush), you are only going to get so far, especially in a tournament like GSL. The reasons quite simply were a lack of innovation on Protoss part and an old GSL system that held back good, up-and-coming players. There were different points where Puzzle and DRG were regarded as the best players in the world, and yet they were struggling just to get into Code A, and were incredibly far from getting into Code S. Meanwhile, players like Ensnare would win a single game a season and be guaranteed a spot for the next season.
On August 22 2012 02:56 CoR wrote: marineking not even QUALIFIED MVP forfeit ...
when the best terrans do THIS well, the reason protoss is top4 is not that p is to strong but t are just not THERE !
One could argue that the reason why Protoss used to do so poorly was because they were not in Code S and the format made it almost impossible to displace Terrans already in Code S. And yet there still were nerfs and buffs that helped Protoss and hurt Terran...
I disagree with that argument. Back in the era of Terran domination, Protosses in Code S lost way early on, and also kept on losing in the Up/Down matches against other races. If Protoss was truly strong all this time as you seem to be implying, then the few Tosses in Code S would have at least performed well and we'd have a steady stream of new Toss players rising from Code A, both of which were clearly not the case. And let's not forget that Toss is the only race that went well over a year without a GSL win. In the past, it was a combination of a lack of good, MC-caliber players, and the race being overall a bit weak that was the cause of Toss performing so badly.
I'm actually saying Terran was really strong then and that Protoss is really strong now. Tournament results happen to support both of those claims. The post I quoted is trying to make the statement that Protoss is not strong, but rather it is because the best Terrans are not in the tournament that Protoss is doing well. And yes, back then Protoss players did lose early on; now Terran players are losing early on. There's only one Terran left in WCS Korea and over half of the players left are Protoss.
Also, I think it's fair to say that the race was never "weak" as you say, but rather that Protoss players did not actually use the arsenal in front of them. How long did it take before Warp Prisms started to be used? How long was it before Colossi tech was occasionally replaced with the slightly more micro-intensive Templar Tech? And what happened when Protoss players actually started using those things? The reasons why Protoss used to do badly had nothing to do with how "weak" the race was, it was how poorly people were playing it. When all you do is one or two base Warpgate/Robo based attacks (and of course the occasional DT rush), you are only going to get so far, especially in a tournament like GSL. The reasons quite simply were a lack of innovation on Protoss part and an old GSL system that held back good, up-and-coming players. There were different points where Puzzle and DRG were regarded as the best players in the world, and yet they were struggling just to get into Code A, and were incredibly far from getting into Code S. Meanwhile, players like Ensnare would win a single game a season and be guaranteed a spot for the next season.
Your point about lack of innovation is noted, but I argue that the various Toss-favored balance changes resulted in giving Toss more breathing room to actually innovate. Fact is, it's difficult to innovate when you're dying to 1-1-1 all-ins and when EMPs were as strong as they used to be. Not to mention the various small observer buffs that made it that much easier to play safer.
Also, I posted this in last night's LR thread, but I guess I'll repeat it here: Many strong Terran and Zerg players aren't present in WCS Korea. If you actually look at many of the matchups that occurred in WCS Korea, most of the time it wasn't really an upset when the Toss player won, but rather, a match that you'd expect the player to win because he was just the stronger player. Squirtle vs. B4 and Roro? Genius vs. dreamertt? The reigning GSL champion vs. pretty much anyone? Puzzle and HerO vs. Reality? The list goes on and on. Where are Taeja, MKP, and Byun, to name a few Terrans that I think are on par with the best Protosses in the tournament? Where are Symbol, Hyun, Life, Nestea, and so-on? Terran and Zerg in general got screwed for WCS Korea because many of their best players either got upset or didn't participate in the qualifiers, while the strong Toss players all got seeded in. Furthermore, MVP forfeiting hurt the Terran showing a lot more than MC forfeiting hurt the Toss showing due to the lower number of good Ts in the tournament compared to Ps.
Don't get me wrong, I don't deny that Toss has been very strong lately - the very fact that most of the seeds based on GSL rankings went to strong Toss players is evidence enough of how well Toss has been doing in the GSL. But I do think that if many of the good T and Z players were actually in WCS Korea, it wouldn't look as ridiculous as PvPvPvP in the semifinals.
On August 22 2012 02:56 CoR wrote: marineking not even QUALIFIED MVP forfeit ...
when the best terrans do THIS well, the reason protoss is top4 is not that p is to strong but t are just not THERE !
One could argue that the reason why Protoss used to do so poorly was because they were not in Code S and the format made it almost impossible to displace Terrans already in Code S. And yet there still were nerfs and buffs that helped Protoss and hurt Terran...
I disagree with that argument. Back in the era of Terran domination, Protosses in Code S lost way early on, and also kept on losing in the Up/Down matches against other races. If Protoss was truly strong all this time as you seem to be implying, then the few Tosses in Code S would have at least performed well and we'd have a steady stream of new Toss players rising from Code A, both of which were clearly not the case. And let's not forget that Toss is the only race that went well over a year without a GSL win. In the past, it was a combination of a lack of good, MC-caliber players, and the race being overall a bit weak that was the cause of Toss performing so badly.
I'm actually saying Terran was really strong then and that Protoss is really strong now. Tournament results happen to support both of those claims. The post I quoted is trying to make the statement that Protoss is not strong, but rather it is because the best Terrans are not in the tournament that Protoss is doing well. And yes, back then Protoss players did lose early on; now Terran players are losing early on. There's only one Terran left in WCS Korea and over half of the players left are Protoss.
Also, I think it's fair to say that the race was never "weak" as you say, but rather that Protoss players did not actually use the arsenal in front of them. How long did it take before Warp Prisms started to be used? How long was it before Colossi tech was occasionally replaced with the slightly more micro-intensive Templar Tech? And what happened when Protoss players actually started using those things? The reasons why Protoss used to do badly had nothing to do with how "weak" the race was, it was how poorly people were playing it. When all you do is one or two base Warpgate/Robo based attacks (and of course the occasional DT rush), you are only going to get so far, especially in a tournament like GSL. The reasons quite simply were a lack of innovation on Protoss part and an old GSL system that held back good, up-and-coming players. There were different points where Puzzle and DRG were regarded as the best players in the world, and yet they were struggling just to get into Code A, and were incredibly far from getting into Code S. Meanwhile, players like Ensnare would win a single game a season and be guaranteed a spot for the next season.
Your point about lack of innovation is noted, but I argue that the various Toss-favored balance changes resulted in giving Toss more breathing room to actually innovate. Fact is, it's difficult to innovate when you're dying to 1-1-1 all-ins and when EMPs were as strong as they used to be. Not to mention the various small observer buffs that made it that much easier to play safer.
Also, I posted this in last night's LR thread, but I guess I'll repeat it here: Many strong Terran and Zerg players aren't present in WCS Korea. If you actually look at many of the matchups that occurred in WCS Korea, most of the time it wasn't really an upset when the Toss player won, but rather, a match that you'd expect the player to win because he was just the stronger player. Squirtle vs. B4 and Roro? Genius vs. dreamertt? The reigning GSL champion vs. pretty much anyone? Puzzle and HerO vs. Reality? The list goes on and on. Where are Taeja, MKP, and Byun, to name a few Terrans that I think are on par with the best Protosses in the tournament? Where are Symbol, Hyun, Life, Nestea, and so-on? Terran and Zerg in general got screwed for WCS Korea because many of their best players either got upset or didn't participate in the qualifiers, while the strong Toss players all got seeded in. Furthermore, MVP forfeiting hurt the Terran showing a lot more than MC forfeiting hurt the Toss showing due to the lower number of good Ts in the tournament compared to Ps.
Don't get me wrong, I don't deny that Toss has been very strong lately - the very fact that most of the seeds based on GSL rankings went to strong Toss players is evidence enough of how well Toss has been doing in the GSL. But I do think that if many of the good T and Z players were actually in WCS Korea, it wouldn't look as ridiculous as PvPvPvP in the semifinals.
I guess the EMP nerf did really make TvP way harder (and therefore PvT easier) in the late game (of course ballers like Taeja make it look easy, lol). But did the Immortal buff that was supposed to stop 1-1-1 actually do anything? Because I still see 1-1-1s that lose when there are no Immortals and I also see 1-1-1s that work when there are Immortals. I think that the new wave of Protoss players that are crushing this tournament and the GSL are the real reason why Protoss started doing well. People started playing the race correctly and now they win. Oh, and I agree with you that it probably would not be PvPvPvP in the semis were there better players from the other two races, but back in early-mid 2011, if Puzzle/other up-and-coming Protoss players had been in Code S they probably would have gotten deeper than other Protoss players at the time did.
On August 22 2012 02:56 CoR wrote: marineking not even QUALIFIED MVP forfeit ...
when the best terrans do THIS well, the reason protoss is top4 is not that p is to strong but t are just not THERE !
One could argue that the reason why Protoss used to do so poorly was because they were not in Code S and the format made it almost impossible to displace Terrans already in Code S. And yet there still were nerfs and buffs that helped Protoss and hurt Terran...
I disagree with that argument. Back in the era of Terran domination, Protosses in Code S lost way early on, and also kept on losing in the Up/Down matches against other races. If Protoss was truly strong all this time as you seem to be implying, then the few Tosses in Code S would have at least performed well and we'd have a steady stream of new Toss players rising from Code A, both of which were clearly not the case. And let's not forget that Toss is the only race that went well over a year without a GSL win. In the past, it was a combination of a lack of good, MC-caliber players, and the race being overall a bit weak that was the cause of Toss performing so badly.
I'm actually saying Terran was really strong then and that Protoss is really strong now. Tournament results happen to support both of those claims. The post I quoted is trying to make the statement that Protoss is not strong, but rather it is because the best Terrans are not in the tournament that Protoss is doing well. And yes, back then Protoss players did lose early on; now Terran players are losing early on. There's only one Terran left in WCS Korea and over half of the players left are Protoss.
Also, I think it's fair to say that the race was never "weak" as you say, but rather that Protoss players did not actually use the arsenal in front of them. How long did it take before Warp Prisms started to be used? How long was it before Colossi tech was occasionally replaced with the slightly more micro-intensive Templar Tech? And what happened when Protoss players actually started using those things? The reasons why Protoss used to do badly had nothing to do with how "weak" the race was, it was how poorly people were playing it. When all you do is one or two base Warpgate/Robo based attacks (and of course the occasional DT rush), you are only going to get so far, especially in a tournament like GSL. The reasons quite simply were a lack of innovation on Protoss part and an old GSL system that held back good, up-and-coming players. There were different points where Puzzle and DRG were regarded as the best players in the world, and yet they were struggling just to get into Code A, and were incredibly far from getting into Code S. Meanwhile, players like Ensnare would win a single game a season and be guaranteed a spot for the next season.
Your point about lack of innovation is noted, but I argue that the various Toss-favored balance changes resulted in giving Toss more breathing room to actually innovate. Fact is, it's difficult to innovate when you're dying to 1-1-1 all-ins and when EMPs were as strong as they used to be. Not to mention the various small observer buffs that made it that much easier to play safer.
Also, I posted this in last night's LR thread, but I guess I'll repeat it here: Many strong Terran and Zerg players aren't present in WCS Korea. If you actually look at many of the matchups that occurred in WCS Korea, most of the time it wasn't really an upset when the Toss player won, but rather, a match that you'd expect the player to win because he was just the stronger player. Squirtle vs. B4 and Roro? Genius vs. dreamertt? The reigning GSL champion vs. pretty much anyone? Puzzle and HerO vs. Reality? The list goes on and on. Where are Taeja, MKP, and Byun, to name a few Terrans that I think are on par with the best Protosses in the tournament? Where are Symbol, Hyun, Life, Nestea, and so-on? Terran and Zerg in general got screwed for WCS Korea because many of their best players either got upset or didn't participate in the qualifiers, while the strong Toss players all got seeded in. Furthermore, MVP forfeiting hurt the Terran showing a lot more than MC forfeiting hurt the Toss showing due to the lower number of good Ts in the tournament compared to Ps.
Don't get me wrong, I don't deny that Toss has been very strong lately - the very fact that most of the seeds based on GSL rankings went to strong Toss players is evidence enough of how well Toss has been doing in the GSL. But I do think that if many of the good T and Z players were actually in WCS Korea, it wouldn't look as ridiculous as PvPvPvP in the semifinals.
I guess the EMP nerf did really make TvP way harder (and therefore PvT easier) in the late game (of course ballers like Taeja make it look easy, lol). But did the Immortal buff that was supposed to stop 1-1-1 actually do anything? Because I still see 1-1-1s that lose when there are no Immortals and I also see 1-1-1s that work when there are Immortals. I think that the new wave of Protoss players that are crushing this tournament and the GSL are the real reason why Protoss started doing well. People started playing the race correctly and now they win. Oh, and I agree with you that it probably would not be PvPvPvP in the semis were there better players from the other two races, but back in early-mid 2011, if Puzzle/other up-and-coming Protoss players had been in Code S they probably would have gotten deeper than other Protoss players at the time did.
I'd say that the changed map pool is the main reason why the 1-1-1 is easier to stop now, but the immortal buff certainly helped, though it'd be hard to accurately say how much.
My one hope in all of this is that blizzard reacts with a patch that nerfs buffs terran, and what do they buff? TANKS! Bring back sc1 tanks plz, I wanna mech.
First time protoss ever has a good showing in months (by good showing i mean not just 1 protoss player making it deep) and TL calls it the most dominant race
LOL kk
On August 22 2012 06:30 JuiceBoxHero wrote: My one hope in all of this is that blizzard reacts with a patch that nerfs buffs terran, and what do they buff? TANKS! Bring back sc1 tanks plz, I wanna mech.
did you play beta, tanks were horribly broken for like the first 13 patches because they were equal to their bw equivalents
tanks can't be as good as they were in bw, not until blizzard stops units from clumping by default, there was a good thread about fixing this by changing the unit spacing, but i doubt blizzard will make a change like that
On August 22 2012 06:30 JuiceBoxHero wrote: My one hope in all of this is that blizzard reacts with a patch that nerfs buffs terran, and what do they buff? TANKS! Bring back sc1 tanks plz, I wanna mech.
I agree with this. I don't want re-skinned bio units like they're proposing in HotS. I don't want a Factory army, I want a mech army.
EPT
Polt <Ohana> 
Seed
Curious <Daybreak> 
. Wish MvP, MKP, Taeja & Byun were in this tournament.
