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On February 10 2012 09:31 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 09:01 power-overwhelming wrote:
Community is always against Toss. So much bias against them. Even these foreign casters are biased against Toss.
They bash MC saying "lolz sticking to gateway unitz" when 90% of Terrans have been beating Protoss using.. RAX UNITS. But no it's a "bio ball" and is definitely not an all in. Only bitbybit got scrutinized for his all ins, but months and months later we get players like MVP doing the same thing and it's called "tactical".
I think the only way the community will acknowledge a Toss player not doing a "timing" attack is if the opponent is fully ready for it. I've seen games where MC attacks 20 min in and the opponent already established a third and it was still bashed as a "timing/all-in" attack.
The only reason Terrans are not dominating is because they stopped using 1/1/1s and their Ghost cheese-timings tactical pushes got figured out. Oh because a charge upgrade (higher tech) can no longer be stopped by a marauder slow (t1 upgrade). I don't think the term "timing attack" is derogatory at all. It's just a strong attack at a point in time where your army is strong, and is supposed to do some damage to an opponent- in no way considered is it considered to be cheese. "All in" is completely different, though.
The problem is that almost any Toss timing attack off < 3 bases is all-in to some degree, especially against a macro zerg. IMO, it's a problem with language. You have to kill, cancel, or at least de-worker the third or you just get run over with mass bio/muta/Zerg T3. You don't have to win the game right there, which to me is the only truly all-in type of push. But so many non-toss deride pressure on the third as "all-in" that it's worked its way into the vernacular. Now granted, often if your timing fails/does weak damage, the mobility of bio or mutas or even lings (if you lost the fight badly enough) will deny your third for eons, but that means you are BEHIND. You haven't lost. That's the boundary between timing attacks and all-ins.
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God, GSL has been pumping out some great games lately. Why the sudden step up? o.O
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On February 10 2012 09:59 hzflank wrote:
When I look at the brackets, I think:
DRG has a hard ro8 match vs Parting. DRG should easily beat Gumiho in ro4, but might struggle vs Puzzle as Puzzle has a very good PvZ record. DRG would have a very hard time in the final vs MMA or Genius and I doubt DRG has much chance at all vs MC. DRG really wants Alive to make it to the finals..
I don't understand why everyone thinks DRG will have problems facing Parting...DRG just dismantled Oz in the FXOpen lately
and beat Parting convincingly in the KSL.
Only reason DRG lost to Genius was because Genius's style specifically counters mutalisks, which DRG likes to make.
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nice write up. I still believe MC can play a macro game, he can do it!
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You all protoss are willingly forgetting about big part of equation.
Protoss has one of most cost effective unit combinations, zergs on the other hand are forced to use cost innefective hardcountered units.
How to balance this ? Obviously by using standard "1 base more than your opponent macro formula."
FFE breaks this standard by forcing game on equal macro terms with zerg, while using better units. So Z has to respond :
1, take third and create window of opportunity for opponent to kill him with 2 base allin
2, try 2 base abusive strategy like mass muta into expands + forced basetrade (punishable by some allins and being figured out)
3, try 6 pool which is ONLY build available to punish FFE (does not even work on all of positions)
4, try to play macro game into 40 minutes infestor broodlord and hope P misses his vortex
All of this creates uniform uniteresting allininsh games, it creats feeling of ZvP being broken. I stopped playing 2 moths ago becouse i was sure that after mass muta abuse will be figured out ZvP will be almost unwinnable and here we are ladies and gentlemen, we reached this stage of game.
Real problem is that after multiple protoss buffs zergs have no real core ZvP unit anymore. Multiple zerg players keeps stating they dont understand ZvP anymore, they dont understand what is correct way to play the matchup .... think about it before u demand respect.
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On February 10 2012 11:05 Pitrocelli wrote:
Real problem is that after multiple protoss buffs zergs have no real core ZvP unit anymore. Multiple zerg players keeps stating they dont understand ZvP anymore, they dont understand what is correct way to play the matchup .... think about it before u demand respect.
Well, outside of all-in's, most Zs in GSL seem to believe the best way to beat P is to transition into mass mutas without getting caught.*
*I know it's probably very hard. 
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Great write-up guys, as always. 
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MKP 
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On February 10 2012 11:05 Pitrocelli wrote:
You all protoss are willingly forgetting about big part of equation.
Protoss has one of most cost effective unit combinations, zergs on the other hand are forced to use cost innefective hardcountered units.
How to balance this ? Obviously by using standard "1 base more than your opponent macro formula."
FFE breaks this standard by forcing game on equal macro terms with zerg, while using better units. So Z has to respond :
1, take third and create window of opportunity for opponent to kill him with 2 base allin
2, try 2 base abusive strategy like mass muta into expands + forced basetrade (punishable by some allins and being figured out)
3, try 6 pool which is ONLY build available to punish FFE (does not even work on all of positions)
4, try to play macro game into 40 minutes infestor broodlord and hope P misses his vortex
All of this creates uniform uniteresting allininsh games, it creats feeling of ZvP being broken. I stopped playing 2 moths ago becouse i was sure that after mass muta abuse will be figured out ZvP will be almost unwinnable and here we are ladies and gentlemen, we reached this stage of game.
Real problem is that after multiple protoss buffs zergs have no real core ZvP unit anymore. Multiple zerg players keeps stating they dont understand ZvP anymore, they dont understand what is correct way to play the matchup .... think about it before u demand respect.
Terrible post.
Go whine in the Designated Balance Discussion.
Keep our board clean from filth like this.
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aLive vs DRG finals incoming! WOOT!
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I don't think Nestea is going anywhere anytime soon but I did enjoy the final drama of the article.
I need to pay more attention to other Korean Protosses, Ive become complacent in just assuming MC was The One.
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I gotta say I'm loving the new GSL format. Just look at all the potential storylines it has in the Ro8:
-The current king MMA is still in.
-The resurgent fan favorite, MC
-The king of kong DRG
-The old guard and master of ceremonies Genius
-Possible royal roader in Parting (who has actually IMO been the most impressive looking for Protoss so far this GSL)
Pretty crazy stuff.
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Genius had been lighting it up, but when he lost to MKP I thought he was done. His PvZ looked awesome and game 3 of the second series against MKP was mind-blowing for me as a Protoss player. I've already watched that game 3 times and just marveled at his patience. Making that lighting-quick correct decision to abandon his third, save his units and re-position his army while MKP was attacking was one of the best strategic maneuvers I've seen in a while.
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Sorry Wax but you're really starting to lose me lately. I quote:
+ Show Spoiler +
In November of 2010, Nestea became the best Zerg player in the world. A year and two months later, his era has finally come to a close. Arguably, DRG had already been the better player for a few months – he was beating better opponents in a more convincing fashion, while Nestea was living off the benefit of the doubt. You could see that Nestea just wasn't the same. He didn't have the same sense of control over the game as he had before, and that his mechanics were just not as good as some of the newer players.
However, he had been such a storied champion, and such a loved one that we could not bear to see him go. We removed doubt from our minds, and prayed that he would come back the way we remembered him. He could not have stepped down peacefully, not even if he had tried. We wouldn't have let him.
Perhaps it was his final act of benevolence unto his Zerg subjects, that Nestea invited DongRaeGu into his group. Times had changed, and Zerg needed a new hero – one not weary from over a decade of fighting, one who had yet to feel the first touch of complacency – to carry it forward. But Zerg demanded that its champion be chosen through a trial by blood...
DongRaeGu, take your crown.
I'm sorry but just, no. I believe that DRG is a better player than Nestea and have been thinking that for a few months, but this reasoning is so anecdotal it's ridiculous. Or better yet the thing that spawned such a statement that probably never would have been said otherwise is completely anecdotal. You talk as though Nestea just handed in his resignation to the pro scene and yet all that happened was a RO16 knockout. The biggest thing though is that DRG's games vs MKP showed DRG's skill far far greater than DRG vs Nestea games. I think you have to be a little crazy to think that Nestea didn't have a lead at crucial points in both games, and so did DRG. However Nestea in both the 2nd and third game literally THREW AWAY any good position he had at those crucial points due to decision making that was in no way congruent with almost all of Nestea's previously good play.
Here's the tricky part, all of what I just said still promoted the fact that DRG did play better. We are all aware that decision making is a huge part of any aspect of life including RTS games and this means therefore that greater decision making = greater level of skill(in one aspect). But the point I try and make here is that Nestea made decisions in both game 2 and 3 that actually made me facepalm SO HARD when I just saw him starting to make the decision because it wasn't a Nestea level decision.
Nestea game 2: "Hmm I think if I attack into this giant concave that DRG has, and not micro my units, and not even have them all in attack range, I can beat this army"
I've seen literally every televized game Nestea has played and have watched him stream on the IM stream and this is SO not the kind of decision Nestea would make.
Nestea game 3: "How about without sending a single ling, overlord, overseer, changeling, SINGLE Infestor, I just run all my fucking Infestors into DRG's base, splitting them up, and watch them get demolished by Queens and spines because obviously at this time in the game DRG has detection every which way possible"
I mean I don't honestly know how in god's name he thought this was a good idea at the time, but clearly he had a stroke while he was playing this game.
So in the end, I'm not convinced. As COMPLETELY RETARDED as the decisions Nestea made in those games were, I still look to Nestea as the Zerg hero personally, and will until he is clearly completely washed up. I just really don't believe that those sets were a good example of how Nestea has played, and can still play.
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On February 10 2012 15:41 Share_The_Land wrote:
So in the end, I'm not convinced. As COMPLETELY RETARDED as the decisions Nestea made in those games were, I still look to Nestea as the Zerg hero personally, and will until he is clearly completely washed up. I just really don't believe that those sets were a good example of how Nestea has played, and can still play.
How many times are we going to sit around and blindly defend nestea?
He's been awful with decisions since last Fall.
He threw away the Blizzcon Finals with 27 broodlords without support
He threw away Code S November by attacking archons with mass banelings and then AFK his mutas
He threw away BlizzCup by running his entire army into a corner so Polt could shoot them up
There is a trend going on here....
I think Nestea is very smart, but under pressure he just spasms and goes brain dead.
We cannot keep justifying his mistakes...
I think his reputation at this point is virtually irreparable...unless he wins another GSL or so...which isn't going to happen anytime soon, guaranteed.
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On February 10 2012 11:05 Pitrocelli wrote:
You all protoss are willingly forgetting about big part of equation.
Protoss has one of most cost effective unit combinations, zergs on the other hand are forced to use cost innefective hardcountered units.
How to balance this ? Obviously by using standard "1 base more than your opponent macro formula."
FFE breaks this standard by forcing game on equal macro terms with zerg, while using better units. So Z has to respond :
1, take third and create window of opportunity for opponent to kill him with 2 base allin
2, try 2 base abusive strategy like mass muta into expands + forced basetrade (punishable by some allins and being figured out)
3, try 6 pool which is ONLY build available to punish FFE (does not even work on all of positions)
4, try to play macro game into 40 minutes infestor broodlord and hope P misses his vortex
All of this creates uniform uniteresting allininsh games, it creats feeling of ZvP being broken. I stopped playing 2 moths ago becouse i was sure that after mass muta abuse will be figured out ZvP will be almost unwinnable and here we are ladies and gentlemen, we reached this stage of game.
Real problem is that after multiple protoss buffs zergs have no real core ZvP unit anymore. Multiple zerg players keeps stating they dont understand ZvP anymore, they dont understand what is correct way to play the matchup .... think about it before u demand respect.
Sad stuff here because, as right as you are, your way to present things will only cause people to whine about your 'trolling balance talks'. I however couldn't agree more with you. PvZ is indeed extremely broken. I say that as a Terran player who has completely lost interest in watching PvZ -for the exact same reasons that you've stated in your post, I barely ever see anything going Zerg's way-. Protoss in general has become an awfully boring race to watch because yes, any big-scaled attack on 2 bases without robot -immortal burst set aside- is an all-in. It focuses the entire income on producing low-tier units, the entire chronoboosting on the gates and, if it doesn't deal a huge amount of damage -like kill a chunk of 20scvs against T or quite simply kill a Z player who's on 3 bases-, P loses the game. Not to mention Protosses quite naturally want to win and have as a consequence a very annoying tendency to sit defensively on X bases and wait for an unkillable maxed-out deathball before doing anything relevant at all. Now don't get me wrong I like a lot of Protoss players -MC especially-. I just think that P's always been the broken race in the game, and that people seem 'biased' for a reason. I wouldn't mind seeing only Zergs and Terrans in the GSL these days, no kidding.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On February 10 2012 17:30 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 11:05 Pitrocelli wrote:
You all protoss are willingly forgetting about big part of equation.
Protoss has one of most cost effective unit combinations, zergs on the other hand are forced to use cost innefective hardcountered units.
How to balance this ? Obviously by using standard "1 base more than your opponent macro formula."
FFE breaks this standard by forcing game on equal macro terms with zerg, while using better units. So Z has to respond :
1, take third and create window of opportunity for opponent to kill him with 2 base allin
2, try 2 base abusive strategy like mass muta into expands + forced basetrade (punishable by some allins and being figured out)
3, try 6 pool which is ONLY build available to punish FFE (does not even work on all of positions)
4, try to play macro game into 40 minutes infestor broodlord and hope P misses his vortex
All of this creates uniform uniteresting allininsh games, it creats feeling of ZvP being broken. I stopped playing 2 moths ago becouse i was sure that after mass muta abuse will be figured out ZvP will be almost unwinnable and here we are ladies and gentlemen, we reached this stage of game.
Real problem is that after multiple protoss buffs zergs have no real core ZvP unit anymore. Multiple zerg players keeps stating they dont understand ZvP anymore, they dont understand what is correct way to play the matchup .... think about it before u demand respect. Not to mention Protosses quite naturally want to win and have as a consequence a very annoying tendency to sit defensively on X bases and wait for an unkillable maxed-out deathball before doing anything relevant at all.
Infestor broodlord says hi
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On February 10 2012 05:34 SeaSwift wrote:
I'm surprised that Protoss balance has become such a big thing recently. 4 Protoss in the ro8, compared to 3 Terrans, is not a big deal, especially when Protoss was doing so badly for so long.
It's not about where you were. It's where you're at that matters.
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i like how you say that MVP and Nestea are replaced but don't mention specific names, but at the same time am annoyed cus i wanna know what you think haha (or did you leave it open cus you're not sure?)
Poor nestea will miss you!
And lol DRG new Yellow again! DRG vs MMA finals again yea? (tho hopefully more epic than last time -- the individual sets i mean, not the match overall -- hopefully it's epic like jjakji vs leenock)
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EPT
