The first game opened up without too much aggression on either side, so both players were able to take their naturals. DRG slipped a zergling inside Nestea's main and managed to keep it alive for quite a long time, giving him the information needed to skip a baneling nest and transition straight into roaches.
DRG decided that he would try to hit a pre-lair timing with his roaches, but it turned out to be a poor move. Nestea had built several spine crawlers as he teched up to lair and mutalisks, and survived the attack from DRG easily. Instead of trying to make anti air and play the game out normally, DRG gathered himself for huge roach-bane all-in attack.
DRG did a decent amount of damage, but it wasn't enough. Nestea cleaned up the attack with mutalisks and went to counter attack, and there was nothing left for DRG to do but GG.
Some early ling-bane aggression on both sides failed to have a big effect, so the game went onto the mid-game with DRG choosing to control the map with mutalisks while Nestea preferred to stay on the ground. DongRaeGu's mutalisk choice allowed him to get a faster third base, and he would stay up an expansion for most of the game. Despite this, Nestea never seemed to be limited by his resource gathering; it was his lack of finesse that lost him the game. Throughout the game, DRG and Nestea clashed with roach-infestor multiple times, but Nestea always seemed to be the player who was being less efficient. This stacked up for a while, until it produced a DRG victory.
Well, this game was awesome. For the sake of thoroughness, here's a brief run through, but it really doesn't do it justice.
Nestea looked completely dead after his 10 pool speedling all-in failed, but somehow reversed the position by doing a second ling-bane all-in that killed DRG's main hatchery.
Move a few minutes ahead, and it looked like DRG was totally dead to Nestea's mutalisk+roach attack that denied his third and left him a base down... but then he came back with a suicide burrow infestor attack on Nestea's third that somehow ended up being worth it, despite the loss of six or so infestors.
A few more minutes forward, the two players were taking central expansions opposite of each other, settling in for a huge roach infestor battle. However, Nestea ends up making a crucial mistake, and...
MKP threw his opponent a curveball to open the set, doing a reactor-FE into a rarely seen TvP mech build. As for Genius, he played fairly standard, but made the choice to skip his robo to go for faster upgrades and twilight tech.
This left him in the dark until MKP made his first push with marines, tanks, and hellions – but Genius didn't have to worry. At least, not at first. Genius attacked the mech ball at the perfect timing, while hellions were too far out ahead, and marines were in prime positions to be force-fielded. The attack was crushed and it looked like Genius was in the lead.
However, MKP did one crucial thing during the battle, which was the rally four hellions straight into Genius' main. Genius didn't bother to attend to his mineral line during the battle, and as a result, lost 22 probes.
Things went downhill from there for Genius. MKP had but to keep the pressure on Genius as he expanded more and more, and there was nothing Genius could do about it. He was barely had the economy to squeeze out new armies to stop the waves of mech troops, and couldn't expand or stop any expansions. Eventually MKP just got too big, and Genius GG'd out.
MKP got away with a greedy triple orbital build, while Genius was left doing a very standard FE into 3-gate robo. The advantage materialized for MKP in a bigger army, which he used to stay safe and continue to expand with almost complete impunity.
With a massive income, MKP was able to fight at will, drop at will, and pretty much do anything without fear of being unable to replace any troops he lost. In the meanwhile, Genius was in the business of preserving his army and trying to build a deathball, which led him to avoid risky engagements and prevented him from putting any pressure on his opponent.
The game eventually ended with Genius having done barely anything but stay on his side of the map, with MKP wearing him down with attacks and drops until he forced a desperation battle towards the end, which MKP inevitably won.
MKP decided he would do a mech build, but with an added twist. Instead of just poking around with blue-flame hellions to see if there were free drone kills to be had, he added two tank-mode tanks and hit a very cute hellion+tank timing to pressure DRG's front. Fortunately for DRG, he lived up to his reputation as the master of defense and used his queens and zerglings to hold off the attack.
Back at home, MKP had finished a third command center and was settling in to turtle and mass up troops again. However, DRG was able to hit a timing while MKP had spread his troops too thinly across three bases, and disrupted MKP's army and economy with scattered mutalisk and zergling attacks. This gave DongRaeGu the breathing space he needed to secure five bases on his side of the map, and complete his infrastructure for pumping non-stop zerglings, roaches, and banelings in anticipation of the upcoming battle.
MKP moved out with a large group of thors and hellions once he was near maxed, initiating a battle that would decide the game. However, even before the battle started, DRG left MKP a gift by rolling banelings into his unprotected third and wiping out a ton of SCVs.
In the main battle, DongRaeGu's forces crushed through MKP's mech army and was able to immediately give chase. With the core of his army destroyed and his economy hurt, MKP could not rebuild fast enough to stop the continuing onslaught of roaches that kept streaming towards his base, and GG'd out.
With not much of interest happening in the early game, the game went almost straight to a late game showdown.
Seeing MKP take his third base quickly, DRG looked a step ahead and decided to prepare for the next phase of the game. While he swatted away MKP's occasional attempts to drop, DRG got busy securing additional bases for himself while preparing to deny MKP's eventual attempt to take a center base.
In a way, DRG was trying to turn the tables of TvZ on Antiga, making it the Terran's struggle to hold a fourth base, not the Zerg's. DRG spread his creep all the way past the center, and even set up crawlers on the central hill overlooking MKP's future base.
An intense tug of war ensued over the center of the map, with MKP successfully getting down a planetary fortress. However, his mining was disrupted constantly, with brood lords continuing to fire down from above. In the end, MKP could not get the right combination of vikings, tanks, and marines together to push DRG back. DRG surged forward with an army of brood lords, infestors, zerglings, and banelings, controlling each separate component skillfully to dislodge MKP from the center and swarm over the Terran army.
Genius decided to simplify ZvP to its simplest for Nestea in the first game: defend or die. A strong gateway + void ray timing came after a forge FE, and Nestea needed all his wiles to stop it. In the end, Nestea had just enough units, good positioning, and a clutch burrow upgrade, which allowed him to hold off Genius' attack. Genius was doomed after his failed all-in timing, and fell to waves of Nestea's units soon after.
Nestea opened up with a 6-pool build, which quickly put an end to Genius' plan to forge FE. However, Genius did manage to scout Nestea early enough to prepare – building a cannon in his main and proceeding to do standard one base play. The game played out with Genius going for a safe 3-gate expansion, while Nestea droned up and took his natural.
From there, Nestea's plan was to go for a mass mutalisk build off two bases, even getting two spires for upgrades. However, Genius caught drift of the plan through good stargate unit aggression, which stopped Nestea from taking his third while scouting out the two building spires.
Knowing Nestea's gameplan, Genius adjusted brilliantly. He stayed on two base, massed gateway units, and continued to pump phoenixes from one stargate. Instead of taking any risks, Genius simply stayed on two bases while constantly denying Nestea from taking his third base, happy to stay in a two base vs two base situation.
The crucial moment of the game came when Nestea tried to backdoor Genius with mutalisks before he had noticed Genius' heavy commitment to phoenixes, which ended in a mutalisk massacre. Nestea had no ability to pressure Genius after that, and ended up being holed in his base.
With both players on two base, it wasn't hard for Genius to eventaully build up a force that allowed him to crash into Nestea's natural head on and take the game.
Bel'Shir Beach Winter Genius decided to play Bel'Shir winter safe and slow, going for a forge FE with stargate pressure, while building enough troops to safely move out to his third base. Nestea played a fairly normal game as well, taking his three bases and pumping out a large ground army while teching up to mutalisks.
The first big aggressive move of the game came as Genius' third nexus was about to complete. Nestea had a large force of roaches and lings at the ready, and decided to try and deny the expansion. He did not have the army to defeat Genius head-on, however, and he ended up having to sacrifice a considerable number of his roaches in a diversionary, suicide engagement while a different part of his army went and destroyed the Nexus.
In the aftermath, Nestea opened himself up to a massive counter-attack by Genius' combined forces, which forced him to yield his third base. Nestea tried to backdoor with his newly produced mutalisks in the meanwhile, but Genius simply returned his phoenixes to help defend.
The game turned into one similar to the second game, where both players sat on two bases, but Genius had high DPSs, high tech troops against Nestea's more fragile army. The game only favored Genius the more they progressed in that state, and he was eventually able to overpower Nestea and take the game.
Genius opened with a 4-gate opener, which he managed to disguise as a 1-gate FE. On the other hand, MKP went for a reactor-tech lab 2-rax build.
By luck or design, MKP pushed out at just the right time to catch Genius' forward warp-in pylon, and the four canceled warp-ins alerted him to Genius' plan. After killing the pylon, MKP pulled a ton of his SCVs and decided he would punish Genius with an all-in of his own. The attack went according to plan for MKP, and he took the first game with ease.
MKP followed his FE with a 5-rax marine follow-up, but with decent defense on Genius' side it ended up being a wash. In the aftermath, MKP stayed infantry heavy while taking a fast third base, while Genius stayed on two base and focused on building a stronger army.
Genius found a great timing to attack once he had four colossi and blink stalkers, as MKP had yet to fully get his three-base war machine working. MKP made the mistake of engaging too early, and too close to the Protoss base, when waiting for more vikings might have been a better choice. Instead, Genius was able to easily shoot down the few vikings on the field, while the colossi made short work for the Terran infantry. Having lost barely anything, Genius rolled all the way to MKP's base and finished his opponent off.
MKP dug up an old build for the game on Dual Sight, following his FE with a 3-rax ghost timing. Genius managed to catch whiff of it with his observer, however, and showed the kind of good unit spreading that made the EMP rush go out of fashion.
Genius followed his good defense by teching for colossi, going for a similar colossi based deathball play from the first game. This time around, MKP did not get into any bad engagements in the field, and conservatively set about amassing a large army as well.
The match resembled a stare-down after that point, with both players hauling giant armies around the map, unwilling to risk a bad engagement that would be a one way ticket to Code A. Expansions were taken with the utmost care, as overextension could easily mean one's downfall.
In the end, Genius' correct evaluation of the deathball engagement as the single most important part of the game allowed him to emerge victorious. MKP walked in to attack Genius' third base, which Genius had the choice of trying to defend. However, Genius saw the the terrain of his base was slightly disadvantageous, and simply let MKP raze a base for free. While MKP was attacking his base, Genius repositioned his army so it could fight at a slightly better position, and decided to initiate combat there,
Everything worked out perfectly for Genius, and he was able to bring his full firepower to bear in an optimal way. He won the battle by a huge margin, continued into MKP's main, and received the GG.
Winner: Genius
Notes and Comments
4
With Genius getting through in the final game, we now have four Protoss players in the round of eight. The last time that happened was during the GSL World Championship in April, back when warp-gate upgrade came free with your cybernetics core, and psi storm could be cast directly onto the map for the cost of 50/150.
Balance has been a hot topic in the Korean community as of late, with players claiming that Protoss is just too strong. So far, Protoss players have been able to fight back by asking when the last time anyone's seen a Protoss player in a GSL final. They may need a new excuse, very soon.
3
Three players were the faces of their races in 2011: Mvp, Nestea, and MC. By the second month of 2012, two of them have been replaced. Only MC remains, and his position is in tremendous danger as well. He already averted a crisis in the second half of 2011, where he went through a terrible slump. Then, no challenger emerged to take MC's place, and he survived. Though MC has fought his way back into relevance in 2012, he is facing three real challengers to the Protoss crown in this GSL. Come the round of eight, we'll see who's the real Protoss President of 2012.
2
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a new #2 player in the world. I'm not exactly sure who it was before (MVP?), but that doesn't really matter. DongRaeGu defeated Nestea in an amazing duel, making Starcraft II's elder stateman look like he was just a mental step too slow to keep up with the new generation. Then, DRG went to outclass the TvZ icon MKP in an outstanding display of skill (wouldn't have been a surprise to most people if King of Kongs hadn't been a pay only event). In recent months, no one else has shown the combined ability to dominate so many opponents of different races and styles. No one, except MMA. Look at the brackets, Starcraft II fans. You know where this is headed.
1
In November of 2010, Nestea became the best Zerg player in the world. A year and two months later, his era has finally come to a close. Arguably, DRG had already been the better player for a few months – he was beating better opponents in a more convincing fashion, while Nestea was living off the benefit of the doubt. You could see that Nestea just wasn't the same. He didn't have the same sense of control over the game as he had before, and that his mechanics were just not as good as some of the newer players.
However, he had been such a storied champion, and such a loved one that we could not bear to see him go. We removed doubt from our minds, and prayed that he would come back the way we remembered him. He could not have stepped down peacefully, not even if he had tried. We wouldn't have let him.
Perhaps it was his final act of benevolence unto his Zerg subjects, that Nestea invited DongRaeGu into his group. Times had changed, and Zerg needed a new hero – one not weary from over a decade of fighting, one who had yet to feel the first touch of complacency – to carry it forward. But Zerg demanded that its champion be chosen through a trial by blood...
DongRaeGu, take your crown.
Art by Fishuu
Following Losira-Cat's elimination from Code A, we are looking for a suitable replacement.
Writer: Waxangel. Graphics and Art: Meko and Pony Tales (disciple and Lip the Pencilboy). Editor: Waxangel
Some pretty good games today, so sad to see MKP go out and I wish more of this article was on him, but all in all pretty good.
I think it's fair to say Nestea has been dethroned, but is DRG a GSL Champion in the making? I think he'll fail myself, though I wouldn't be surprised if it required a meeting with MMA in the finals to do it
So far, Protoss players have been able to fight back by asking when the last time anyone's seen a Protoss player in a GSL final. They may need a new excuse, very soon.
If this happens, can we get an happy zealot drawing please?
This ro8 promises some awesome games, especially after the ro16 we got
GSL Code S is so good right now; excellent games, fantastic casting, and a we get spoiled with this great coverage in TeamLiquid to boot!
Glad to finally see these articles no longer extending the benefit of the doubt to MVP and Nestea, and putting MMA and DRG in their rightful place at the top.
I'm surprised that Protoss balance has become such a big thing recently. 4 Protoss in the ro8, compared to 3 Terrans, is not a big deal, especially when Protoss was doing so badly for so long.
Now the big deal looks like it should be Zerg balance. There is only 1 Zerg in the Ro8, and looking at Code A there isn't exactly a great influx of Zerg players. TvZ in particular looks pretty poor for Zerg, and has never been Zerg favoured in nearly 18 months of GSL.
These were such great games, DRG is playing like a true champion. Great writeup for this group, too: appreciate all the hard work the TL staff is doing, their skills are definitely sharpening.
Oh, also, very good article as usual but I'm surprised there isn't more talk about MKP's mech build. That looked really interesting for the future in TvP, because it wasn't age-old BW mech at all. Rather than turtling and relying on efficient army trades, it relied on doing economic damage with Hellions while keeping the armies low and in constant conflict to keep Protoss army distracted, and then letting the Tanks finally become cost-efficient by reaching the exponential number of them whereafter their firepower becomes at least notable. It also intends to keep Protoss away from splash units, like Colossi and HTs, but forcing Gateway units all the time to defend so there is little time to tech up.
You can't take much away from only 1 game, but I've seen MKP doing mech variations in TvP before and, as my signature suggests, I like Hellions in TvP, and think they could be the future.
Take your throne genius!! hes back and he will go on to win this code s season!! he will no doubt anticipating more epic ceremonies after each win, guy is such a boss to watch
I am amused by this talk of DRG, genius, MC and MMA, watch as the protoss with the sexiest glasses in GSL history stomp these scrubs and take his title.
Perhaps it was his final act of benevolence unto his Zerg subjects, that Nestea invited DongRaeGu into his group. Times had changed, and Zerg needed a new hero – one not weary from over a decade of fighting, one who had yet to feel the first touch of complacency – to carry it forward. But Zerg demanded that its champion be chosen through a trial by blood...
I really hope that SC2's Zerg throne has been finally taken by a real Emperor of our Swarm. Imho, Nestea never had the firm grip a true Chief of the Swarm should display, although he was the owner, well, again imo he was the Keeper, of the throne for a long time. It's about time a real leader emerge.
About time someone stepped up to say that MVP is no longer the best Terran. MVPs GSL titles were spread over 8 months, one of which was the questionable World Championship which contained half as many players, and only 8 Koreans.
MMA has managed to win two GSL titles in 3 months and is well on his way to a third, and has bested MVP in multiple finals and even shamed him once or twice.
Best Terran 2012:MMA Best Zerg 2012:DRG Best Protoss 2012: TBD by GSL Season 1
I'm very surprised by the outcomes last night. Who would have thought Nestea wouldn't continue on to Ro4. I was actually hoping for a comeback by this dominant Zerg who's been lacking lately in large platform championship wins. MVP must be relieved now that Nestea no longer has the chance this season to go ahead in GSL Championships with the rare early Code A drop of him as well (current tie 3-3).
From the 6 pool to the poor micro / engagements with DRG is Nestea resting on his past accomplishments too much? I would love to see some further inovation in his gameplay as I love to learn from Professor NesTea...
While I probably wouldn't dispute that DRG has surpassed Nestea, I actually feel that Nestea did outplay DRG for the most part, aside from his horrible horrible decision to sacrifice 10 infestors to kill a hatchery. DRG played great, but I still think Nestea is the king of ZvZ.
I think all the Protoss since RO16 are good candidates for best protoss of 2012; but really, the year just started, so I don't know if we could really start saying MMA and DRG are the best for their respective races in the year. So far, I indeed agree, but i believe it could still change if NesTea and Mvp were to come back, and they still have time, since this is only the first GSL of 2012. And right now I nominate PartinG and MC for best Protoss candidates for 2012 :D
Wow that last paragraph got me. The idea that Nestea wanted DRG in his group and letting him prove himself. That was awesome. DRG has a godly ZvT and above average ZvZ. I'm still a little unconvinced of his ZvP, and with so many protoss in the round of 8, he'll have a tough road to the finals.
I don't see how you can give the crown to drg. He didn't win the last game where nestea was clearly ahead. 1 bad decision lost the game for nestea but that doesn't mean that drg is the better player because nestea lost that game, drg didn't win it
On February 10 2012 06:11 Greggle wrote: About time someone stepped up to say that MVP is no longer the best Terran. MVPs GSL titles were spread over 8 months, one of which was the questionable World Championship which contained half as many players, and only 8 Koreans.
MMA has managed to win two GSL titles in 3 months and is well on his way to a third, and has bested MVP in multiple finals and even shamed him once or twice.
Best Terran 2012:MMA Best Zerg 2012:DRG Best Protoss 2012: TBD by GSL Season 1
Agreed, good will can only extend so far. MVP and Nestea are still easily top 5 however they simply have not been looking as hot as before. I don't doubt they can bounceback (MVP more so than Nestea) however they'll really need to lift up their game a few notches if they want to take their crown back undisguisedly
On February 10 2012 06:42 Stoopid0boi wrote: I don't see how you can give the crown to drg. He didn't win the last game where nestea was clearly ahead. 1 bad decision lost the game for nestea but that doesn't mean that drg is the better player because nestea lost that game, drg didn't win it
you can let go man, it's okay. it's not your fault, it's not your fault.
On February 10 2012 06:42 Stoopid0boi wrote: I don't see how you can give the crown to drg. He didn't win the last game where nestea was clearly ahead. 1 bad decision lost the game for nestea but that doesn't mean that drg is the better player because nestea lost that game, drg didn't win it
you can let go man, it's okay. it's not your fault, it's not your fault.
Lol, very nice. Excellent write-up btw. The ending gave me manly nerd-tears.
Even if you want to dispute that Nestea has slightly better ZvZ (which is a reach at the moment), DRG blows Nestea out of the water in ZvT and is much better ZvP. All Nestea had left was his ZvZ and he couldn't beat DongRaeGu.
On February 10 2012 06:42 Stoopid0boi wrote: I don't see how you can give the crown to drg. He didn't win the last game where nestea was clearly ahead. 1 bad decision lost the game for nestea but that doesn't mean that drg is the better player because nestea lost that game, drg didn't win it
you can let go man, it's okay. it's not your fault, it's not your fault.
Thanks for the write up btw. Love the reads as usual XD. Not sure if this is the right place to talk about it, but what was with nestea vs genius games. Nestea just had to use mutas?? Even though they were so unfavorable...
What an entertaining night of games to watch. I was completely impressed by DRG. Seeing him take down NesTea, then just dismantle MKP was just amazing. So unfortunate that MKP and NesTea have to drop to Code A Hope to see both back in Code S for next season.
With DRG hitting Parting in the round of 8...it seems like his road to the GSL finals is probably one of the hardest in the history of the league. Two insanely stacked groups in R32 and R16, and then a supremely good protoss player on the metric rise to fame. No fluff like our last GSL champion who got to the finals for basically free.
As much as I feel bad for DRG, I do think that this tough road will cement him as the greatest player of our time if it happens that he wins the entire championship in the end.
However, he had been such a storied champion, and such a loved one that we could not bear to see him go. We removed doubt from our minds, and prayed that he would come back the way we remembered him. He could not have stepped down peacefully, not even if he had tried. We wouldn't have let him
I don't get why you guys write this when you were basically digging his grave in Ro32. That said, Nestea's decision making is still amazing in his game against DRG, but his mechanics and execution is just lacking which is just sad...
It's almost like watching Boxer in a way where he just wins with smart play, but falters in the fundamentals of the game.
Another MMA vs DRG grand final would be a dream come true. These two are destined to be rivals - just look at the impact on the game they both have. The #1 TvZ in the world vs the #1 ZvT in the world. How fantastic would that be?
On February 10 2012 07:07 woobsauce wrote: Another MMA vs DRG grand final would be a dream come true. These two are destined to be rivals - just look at the impact on the game they both have. The #1 TvZ in the world vs the #1 ZvT in the world. How fantastic would that be?
We already know the answer to that... It's called the BlizzardCup ...the greatest best of 7 of all time in SCII.
On February 10 2012 06:18 Leifish wrote: What's with this 4-3-2-1 gimmick?
As far as I can tell, it's what they use when they want to make a point about what the games tell us about the evolution of the SC2 scene but can't come up with an appropriate title for the rant. See this post and how the comments are titled "The race for Protoss President: MC", "By the way, the best PvTs ever." and "1/3"; one of these three didn't have an inspired title :p
However, he had been such a storied champion, and such a loved one that we could not bear to see him go. We removed doubt from our minds, and prayed that he would come back the way we remembered him. He could not have stepped down peacefully, not even if he had tried. We wouldn't have let him
I don't get why you guys write this when you were basically digging his grave in Ro32. That said, Nestea's decision making is still amazing in his game against DRG, but his mechanics and execution is just lacking which is just sad...
It's almost like watching Boxer in a way where he just wins with smart play, but falters in the fundamentals of the game.
Weird that you'd say this when he lost the final game against DRG as a direct consequence of bad decision making, sending all of his infestors off to harass while leaving his Roaches hanging out in the middle of the map where they were chain-fungaled and easily overpowered.
However, he had been such a storied champion, and such a loved one that we could not bear to see him go. We removed doubt from our minds, and prayed that he would come back the way we remembered him. He could not have stepped down peacefully, not even if he had tried. We wouldn't have let him
I don't get why you guys write this when you were basically digging his grave in Ro32. That said, Nestea's decision making is still amazing in his game against DRG, but his mechanics and execution is just lacking which is just sad...
It's almost like watching Boxer in a way where he just wins with smart play, but falters in the fundamentals of the game.
Weird that you'd say this when he lost the final game against DRG as a direct consequence of bad decision making, sending all of his infestors off to harass while leaving his Roaches hanging out in the middle of the map where they were chain-fungaled and easily overpowered.
To dissect these games
Game 1 seemed like a build order loss for DRG, the spire came before the +1 roach attack Game 2 was a battle of mechanics, many many roach infestor skirmishes, all of which DRG won. Game 3 was a battle of decision making, Nestea made a great decision to double all-in that worked, DRG countered with an infestor 3rd snipe that worked, Nestea did an infestor split that didn't work. DRG then made the decision to just go #%^king kill nestea, which worked. Each player made very crucial insanely clutch decisions in that game. DRG just came out on top overall that night.
After I read the description of game 3 between DRG and Nestea, I was thinking "Alright, I've had enough! I've read about so many cool games, I want to be able to watch them for myself." So I went to the GOM website hoping to find some sort of subscription I could afford that would let me watch the occasional replay every now and then... and then I saw the prices... and my jaw dropped. =(
Anyway - another DRG MMA final would be amazing. <3 Slayers <3
Also, I'm sure we'll see MKP returning with a vengeance in the future
I think it's very stupid to make it out as if Nestea is dead and gone. He's ZvT looks immensely improved and his ZvZ is still one of the two best in the world.
The games against Genius, looked mostly like Genius simply exploiting the meta game better. Zergs seem intend to make mutas in ZvP no matter what these days, so Genius had practised a ton of phoenix play. Nestea wasn't prepared so he lost.
Nestea and DRG have the best ZvZ by some margin and the games today could have gone either way. A miniscule difference in the third game might have meant it was Nestea going through 2-0 and not DRG. Of course should've, would've could've. Nestea didn't win and DRG did. I still think it's a bad background on which to declare Nestea a has-been.
On February 10 2012 07:34 Vorenius wrote: I think it's very stupid to make it out as if Nestea is dead and gone. He's ZvT looks immensely improved and his ZvZ is still one of the two best in the world.
The games against Genius, looked mostly like Genius simply exploiting the meta game better. Zergs seem intend to make mutas in ZvP no matter what these days, so Genius had practised a ton of phoenix play. Nestea wasn't prepared so he lost.
Nestea and DRG have the best ZvZ by some margin and the games today could have gone either way. A miniscule difference in the third game might have meant it was Nestea going through 2-0 and not DRG. Of course should've, would've could've. Nestea didn't win and DRG did. I still think it's a bad background on which to declare Nestea a has-been.
No no no. Nobody is saying Nestea is a has-been. He's still good, he's just no longer the zerg king.
I don't think we're calling Nestea a has-been, but I think it's pretty clear his time on the throne has come to an end. His last big win was half a year ago.
On February 10 2012 07:37 Greggle wrote: I don't think we're calling Nestea a has-been, but I think it's pretty clear his time on the throne has come to an end. His last big win was half a year ago.
That and he ALWAYS had the easiest roads to the finals. Now that Code S is stacked, don't expect to ever see him get back there.
Can we please stop saying 'best so and so of 2012'.
You guys do realize that its February. I dont disagree that it's MMA for Terran, DRG for Zerg, and MC for Protoss. But please stop calling them the presidents of 2012 for their respective races. 2012 just began. Keep it simple, they are simply the best players of their respected races at this point in time. You can't call them best of 2012 when we haven't had one gsl season in 2012 finished yet. I've never understood why you put timelines on players when speaking about them in 'current time'.
It would be more accurate to say, MVP was the terran of 2011, while MMA is the terran of now. The terran of 2012 is yet undecided.
How exactly does DRG have better ZvP than Nestea? I don't dispute his pretty apparent superiority in ZvT, but what examples are there that well illustrate the ZvP case?
On February 10 2012 07:55 HolyArrow wrote: How exactly does DRG have better ZvP than Nestea? I don't dispute his pretty apparent superiority in ZvT, but what examples are there that well illustrate the ZvP case?
DRG vs MC Blizzcup2011 DRG vs Hero Blizzcup 2011 DRG vs Squirtle KSL 2012 DRG vs PARTING KSL 2012
I don't think DRG is able to beat MMA if they meet in the final. I think DRG will get to the finals, but the only way he can win is if MC beat MMA in the semi-finals. DRG is very good, but i feel MMA is just a tiny bit better.
However, he had been such a storied champion, and such a loved one that we could not bear to see him go. We removed doubt from our minds, and prayed that he would come back the way we remembered him. He could not have stepped down peacefully, not even if he had tried. We wouldn't have let him
I don't get why you guys write this when you were basically digging his grave in Ro32. That said, Nestea's decision making is still amazing in his game against DRG, but his mechanics and execution is just lacking which is just sad...
It's almost like watching Boxer in a way where he just wins with smart play, but falters in the fundamentals of the game.
Weird that you'd say this when he lost the final game against DRG as a direct consequence of bad decision making, sending all of his infestors off to harass while leaving his Roaches hanging out in the middle of the map where they were chain-fungaled and easily overpowered.
To dissect these games
Game 1 seemed like a build order loss for DRG, the spire came before the +1 roach attack Game 2 was a battle of mechanics, many many roach infestor skirmishes, all of which DRG won. Game 3 was a battle of decision making, Nestea made a great decision to double all-in that worked, DRG countered with an infestor 3rd snipe that worked, Nestea did an infestor split that didn't work. DRG then made the decision to just go #%^king kill nestea, which worked. Each player made very crucial insanely clutch decisions in that game. DRG just came out on top overall that night.
Regarding the last game.
DRG's counter was suppose to have been countered by Nestea's decision to leave an Overseer, but he just didn't react to stop the Infestors as evidenced by him just not pulling his drones for quite a bit until the infested started popping out everywhere. That's the main reason why I feel like Nestea's decision making was better, but his execution was sloppy.
That said, there were multiple points in the game where Nestea was ahead, but he fucked up executing things. And I'm not saying he had perfect decision making either, far from it by the instance you pointed out, I still feel like he was smart overall though.
Of course, I'm not saying his decision making was better than DRG's, just that it's good because it was because of his decision-making that he got those leads in the first place.
On February 10 2012 08:01 badeanden wrote: I don't think DRG is able to beat MMA if they meet in the final. I think DRG will get to the finals, but the only way he can win is if MC beat MMA in the semi-finals. DRG is very good, but i feel MMA is just a tiny bit better.
You are correct. MMA seems to have DRG's number, although that could change with some confidence boosters in DRG's direction. He has always been the '2nd best' to MMA (remember that old drg vs mma story thread). I think its a mental block, not because MMA is better.
Also, MMA wont beat MC. MC has a winning record vs MMA im pretty sure. MC vs DRG could be one of the best finals we have ever seen. Either way, MC, MMA, and DRG are just owning right now.
On February 10 2012 07:55 HolyArrow wrote: How exactly does DRG have better ZvP than Nestea? I don't dispute his pretty apparent superiority in ZvT, but what examples are there that well illustrate the ZvP case?
DRG vs MC Blizzcup2011 DRG vs Hero Blizzcup 2011 DRG vs Squirtle KSL 2012 DRG vs PARTING KSL 2012
Do not doubt the Dong!
Ok, you make a strong point. Nestea's ZvP record stems from how amazingly dominant he was earlier in 2011, but it really seems like he's lost many recent games. I'm not quite convinced though. I'll have to see how DRG does against Parting, and how Nestea does against any Protoss he might encounter in Code A. But I know you're one of the biggest DRG fans out there so I understand your eagerness
On February 10 2012 07:34 Vorenius wrote: I think it's very stupid to make it out as if Nestea is dead and gone. He's ZvT looks immensely improved and his ZvZ is still one of the two best in the world.
The games against Genius, looked mostly like Genius simply exploiting the meta game better. Zergs seem intend to make mutas in ZvP no matter what these days, so Genius had practised a ton of phoenix play. Nestea wasn't prepared so he lost.
Nestea and DRG have the best ZvZ by some margin and the games today could have gone either way. A miniscule difference in the third game might have meant it was Nestea going through 2-0 and not DRG. Of course should've, would've could've. Nestea didn't win and DRG did. I still think it's a bad background on which to declare Nestea a has-been.
He's not a has been, and I say that despite saying 2 or 3 months ago that he was a has been ^^ Since then he beat MVP and made it past some pretty hard ro32 groups. He's just not the king anymore.
On February 10 2012 07:55 HolyArrow wrote: How exactly does DRG have better ZvP than Nestea? I don't dispute his pretty apparent superiority in ZvT, but what examples are there that well illustrate the ZvP case?
DRG vs MC Blizzcup2011 DRG vs Hero Blizzcup 2011 DRG vs Squirtle KSL 2012 DRG vs PARTING KSL 2012
Do not doubt the Dong!
Ok, you make a strong point. Nestea's ZvP record stems from how amazingly dominant he was earlier in 2011, but it really seems like he's lost many recent games. I'm not quite convinced though. I'll have to see how DRG does against Parting, and how Nestea does against any Protoss he might encounter in Code A. But I know you're one of the biggest DRG fans out there so I understand your eagerness
DRG is considered better because Nestea has somehow remained 'untried' in the realms of ZvP. Nestea has not had to play near as many top protoss as DRG in recent times. Essentially you have people looking at DRG's good zvp stats for last 3 months, and comparing that to Nestea vs Naniwa. I think alot of people are only really thinking of Nestea vs Naniwa when they think of his vs P. And somehow, Nestea has remained 'top zerg' for soo long without Protoss being in GSL lol. Its only common that DRG is better, because DRG has played better opponents, and beat better opponents. That said. I dont think Nestea is done just yet. Remember, he beat MVP this year, which is like a first for a BOx.
DRG taking NesTea's Crown: I don't agree... That was a really close set of games (oh my they were awesome). If DRG wins the GSL this season then I'd say the zerg crown is his. NesTea is still an amazing player, and you have to be confident he will make it back into Code S next season. As long as he is a Code S player DRG really needs a GSL title to be worthy of being called the king of zerg.
EDIT: I will say I think DRG is playing better at the moment and has been in recent times, but still has a test to pass, a mountain to climb, before his coronation.
And for those calling out 'best in the world 2012' way too early, too little time to show consistency and any of these players could advance or get knocked out. If some of these guys (players in the ro8 this season) are there in the r08 next season then it could be time to start talking. (and I say if because wow at how stacked the GSL is nowdays)
If all goes well, we're going to have another MMA vs. DRG finals (which would be amazing). Its just awesome that a new generation of Boxer vs. Yellow is starting to emerge!!
On February 10 2012 07:55 HolyArrow wrote: How exactly does DRG have better ZvP than Nestea? I don't dispute his pretty apparent superiority in ZvT, but what examples are there that well illustrate the ZvP case?
DRG vs MC Blizzcup2011 DRG vs Hero Blizzcup 2011 DRG vs Squirtle KSL 2012 DRG vs PARTING KSL 2012
Do not doubt the Dong!
Ok, you make a strong point. Nestea's ZvP record stems from how amazingly dominant he was earlier in 2011, but it really seems like he's lost many recent games. I'm not quite convinced though. I'll have to see how DRG does against Parting, and how Nestea does against any Protoss he might encounter in Code A. But I know you're one of the biggest DRG fans out there so I understand your eagerness
I died as a Nestea fan the day Nestea v. Huk GSL November R16. Since then, Nestea hasn't won a single game versus any formidable protoss....that dumb game against Naniwa doesn't count! And you aren't kidding about me being a DRG fanboy... I practically run DRG's fanclub these days.
On February 10 2012 08:17 RaE21 wrote: If all goes well, we're going to have another MMA vs. DRG finals (which would be amazing). Its just awesome that a new generation of Boxer vs. Yellow is starting to emerge!!
DRG vs MMA would be epic. But i just dont think its gonna happen. MMA just wont beat MC, MC is in the zone and is just destroying. MMA simply can't stand up to MC's protoss play.
On February 10 2012 08:17 6BiT wrote: DRG taking NesTea's Crown: I don't agree... That was a really close set of games (oh my they were awesome). If DRG wins the GSL this season then I'd say the zerg crown is his. NesTea is still an amazing player, and you have to be confident he will make it back into Code S next season. As long as he is a Code S player DRG really needs a GSL title to be worthy of being called the king of zerg.
And for those calling out 'best in the world 2012' way too early, too little time to show consistency and any of these players could advance or get knocked out. If some of these guys (players in the ro8 this season) are there in the r08 next season then it could be time to start talking. (and I say if because wow at how stacked the GSL is nowdays)
I think you are not taking everything into context. If you consider GSL alone, then yes DRG hasn't had much wins...but considering how much destruction DRG has left in the Korean scene as of late, you really have to reconsider this stance. Ever since MLG Providence, the Blizzcup, through the KSL, the KingofKong and now through two very tough groups in 2012 GSL Season 1, DRG's been on fire. That's pretty damn consistent for the last 3-4 months.
On February 10 2012 08:28 Waxangel wrote: dunno, maybe DRG's revolutionary forces need to conduct a purge of the Nestea loyalists. The Zerg kingdom needs order!
On February 10 2012 08:17 RaE21 wrote: If all goes well, we're going to have another MMA vs. DRG finals (which would be amazing). Its just awesome that a new generation of Boxer vs. Yellow is starting to emerge!!
DRG vs MMA would be epic. But i just dont think its gonna happen. MMA just wont beat MC, MC is in the zone and is just destroying. MMA simply can't stand up to MC's protoss play.
DRG vs MC will be just as epic imo
MMA vs. MC should be closer than you guys suppose. MC doesn't play late game Protoss which is what MMA struggles with. Both of them have good micro, and early mid game favors terran to Toss.
Also, some bloke suggested that MC has a winning record against MMA. That's blatantly untrue. Its 4-1 in favor of MMA, with the one loss being last January. They haven't played much, but MMA has all four of their last meetings.
On February 10 2012 08:17 RaE21 wrote: If all goes well, we're going to have another MMA vs. DRG finals (which would be amazing). Its just awesome that a new generation of Boxer vs. Yellow is starting to emerge!!
DRG vs MMA would be epic. But i just dont think its gonna happen. MMA just wont beat MC, MC is in the zone and is just destroying. MMA simply can't stand up to MC's protoss play.
DRG vs MC will be just as epic imo
MMA vs. MC should be closer than you guys suppose. MC doesn't play late game Protoss which is what MMA struggles with. Both of them have good micro, and early mid game favors terran to Toss.
Also, some bloke suggested that MC has a winning record against MMA. That's blatantly untrue. Its 4-1 in favor of MMA, with the one loss being last January. They haven't played much, but MMA has all four of their last meetings.
I love how people still say MC's macrogame isn't great. MC is the best macro toss, he just gets tired of playing and decides to go kill you. I wasn't for sure the MC vs MMA nubmers, looked it up, all i can find is MMA is up 2-1. They played in November, and then before that in March, so yea its uncontested. But MMA loses to Protoss who are far worse than MC. MC sweeps him, just like he has done this entire Code S.
In November of 2010, Nestea became the best Zerg player in the world. A year and two months later, his era has finally come to a close. Arguably, DRG had already been the better player for a few months – he was beating better opponents in a more convincing fashion, while Nestea was living off the benefit of the doubt. You could see that Nestea just wasn't the same. He didn't have the same sense of control over the game as he had before, and that his mechanics were just not as good as some of the newer players.
However, he had been such a storied champion, and such a loved one that we could not bear to see him go. We removed doubt from our minds, and prayed that he would come back the way we remembered him. He could not have stepped down peacefully, not even if he had tried. We wouldn't have let him.
Perhaps it was his final act of benevolence unto his Zerg subjects, that Nestea invited DongRaeGu into his group. Times had changed, and Zerg needed a new hero – one not weary from over a decade of fighting, one who had yet to feel the first touch of complacency – to carry it forward. But Zerg demanded that its champion be chosen through a trial by blood...
DongRaeGu, take your crown.
Holy shit, i got goosebumps while reading this.. so true.
On February 10 2012 08:40 doerrman wrote: Genius was doomed after his failed all-in timing,
Nestea opened up with a 6-pool build ..........................
i swear this anti toss sort of jargon has been going on for so long... its sickening to see even the community against toss, on top of blizzard and everyone else. Would be nice to see someone call a 6 pool cheesy and all in, but you dont hear that for some reason... you only hear that a 2 base toss is doing a "all-in" "timing" "cheese".. I've noticed this for a long time, and only a few good castors and players dont have this bias *cough* tastosis *cough* .. your opinion is great an all, but keep it to yourself when you're writing articles for the whole community, this subtle trolling is driving ppl away from articles like this.
You still follow that. I disregard all that TL does about balance, balance talk, and what the biasness is.
I am a protoss player as well.
6 months ago all of TL was 'AMG PROTOSS UP', now its mixed between 'AMG TVP IS BROKEN' and 'AMG ZVP IS BROKEN'. Moderators no longer seem to care about balance issues, and yes, the biasness from certain articles about 'cheese' or 'good play' is always off (esp love that people say all the buffs toss got caused this, LOL)
That said, TL is still the best, just take out the biasness when your reading something and pretend its not there.
On February 10 2012 07:19 THM wrote: I'm still sad Foxer didn't make it through :S
Yeah but the RO8 is so unbelievably amazing right now I can understand that our saviour the king of marines wanted to sacrifice himself for the betterment of an even more stacked RO8.
Fuck there's just SO MUCH amazingness going on there right now. Can't believe Slayers and MVP both have 2 players in the RO8, one on each side of the bracket. That's a story that has the potential to get REAL interesting in and of itself in the RO4 What with their GSTL meetings. Though I think it's likely that MC will take out Genius... and Puzzle's got his work cut out for him kind of too but not as bad as Genius does.
Pretty sick that we have that interview just yesterday of Parting saying he wants to show the world his PvZ and prove himself the best. Looks like he got his wish... That's gonna be one HELL of a match.
David Kim said they were going to give Toss a more generic Buff coming up... ...I wonder if protoss new performance in the GSL would remove that consideration.
"Genius was doomed after his failed all-in timing,"
"Nestea opened up with a 6-pool build" ..........................
i swear this anti toss sort of jargon has been going on for so long... its sickening to see even the community against toss, on top of blizzard and everyone else. Would be nice to see someone call a 6 pool cheesy and all in, but you dont hear that for some reason... you only hear that a 2 base toss is doing a "all-in" "timing" "cheese".. I've noticed this for a long time, and only a few good castors and players dont have this bias *cough* tastosis *cough* .. your opinion is great an all, but keep it to yourself when you're writing articles for the whole community, this subtle trolling is driving ppl away from articles like this.
"and he was eventually able to overpower Nestea and take the game." --> subtle trolling at its best, love the OP reference.
As a viewer primarily and not a player, I find the term all-in is probably getting more and more confusing. From my perspective all-ins seem to work like this:
- Terran: anything with more than 5 scvs - Protoss: any attack before taking a 3rd base - Zerg: 1 base roach timing
How people called it a year ago: - Terran: attacking with all your units - Protoss: attacking with all your units - Zerg: anything on 1 base
So I must say, the term all-in is becoming far too confusing from a viewer's point of view since "transitions" are something any player can do nowdays out of any build. Sure, it might put them behind, but behind back in 1-base-play days and behind in macro games is actually quite different it appears.
Basically: I'd really just like to see the term "all-in" not used by casters or writers. "Attack that needs to do damage else they fall behind" isn't as catchy, but it's far more accurate.
On February 10 2012 08:47 neoghaleon55 wrote: David Kim said they were going to give Toss a more generic Buff coming up... ...I wonder if protoss new performance in the GSL would remove that consideration.
We are performing as equal as other races because we are playing better honestly. Not a single buff (or nerf like the ghost one) caused what is currently happening. Each race has its own issues still, and buffs/nerfs will still happen. This season wont affect what blizzard will do, if anything it'll delay a balance patch as they let it unfold more.
MC is winning, and people are crying imba, just like they did last time. This year, the better player has won every single game, balance has not been an issue once. I will admit each race has its own issues and imbalances, but the games weren't decided by that. There are more protoss players now frankly because the protoss players played better and deserve to be there.
That said. I hope to god Blizzard doesn't delay any patch with possible buffs/nerfs for any of the races (protoss here). I like when the game changes, even if its not in my favor, the metagame changes/etc make the seasons past by better. I really love how Blizzard is influencing the game though. The forge upgrade costs meant shit (like litterally a 2/2 timing push would have 1 more unit), but it made protoss realize the playstyle and change the game completely. Shit like that is so good for this game, slight tweaks to tell us where to go/etc at times.
Community is always against Toss. So much bias against them. Even these foreign casters are biased against Toss.
They bash MC saying "lolz sticking to gateway unitz" when 90% of Terrans have been beating Protoss using.. RAX UNITS. But no it's a "bio ball" and is definitely not an all in. Only bitbybit got scrutinized for his all ins, but months and months later we get players like MVP doing the same thing and it's called "tactical".
I think the only way the community will acknowledge a Toss player not doing a "timing" attack is if the opponent is fully ready for it. I've seen games where MC attacks 20 min in and the opponent already established a third and it was still bashed as a "timing/all-in" attack.
The only reason Terrans are not dominating is because they stopped using 1/1/1s and their Ghost cheese-timings tactical pushes got figured out. Oh because a charge upgrade (higher tech) can no longer be stopped by a marauder slow (t1 upgrade).
On February 10 2012 08:17 RaE21 wrote: If all goes well, we're going to have another MMA vs. DRG finals (which would be amazing). Its just awesome that a new generation of Boxer vs. Yellow is starting to emerge!!
DRG vs MMA would be epic. But i just dont think its gonna happen. MMA just wont beat MC, MC is in the zone and is just destroying. MMA simply can't stand up to MC's protoss play.
DRG vs MC will be just as epic imo
MMA vs. MC should be closer than you guys suppose. MC doesn't play late game Protoss which is what MMA struggles with. Both of them have good micro, and early mid game favors terran to Toss.
Also, some bloke suggested that MC has a winning record against MMA. That's blatantly untrue. Its 4-1 in favor of MMA, with the one loss being last January. They haven't played much, but MMA has all four of their last meetings.
I love how people still say MC's macrogame isn't great. MC is the best macro toss, he just gets tired of playing and decides to go kill you. I wasn't for sure the MC vs MMA nubmers, looked it up, all i can find is MMA is up 2-1. They played in November, and then before that in March, so yea its uncontested. But MMA loses to Protoss who are far worse than MC. MC sweeps him, just like he has done this entire Code S.
If it's still uncontested you're claiming MC sweeps MMA? I'd rather say that it'll be closer. MMA is still a damn good player and has an over 51% in TvP, so he's not that terrible at it. MMA stomps Zerg and Terran, and it's often far closer vs. P. Still doesn't mean MC will sweep him.
On February 10 2012 09:01 power-overwhelming wrote: Community is always against Toss. So much bias against them. Even these foreign casters are biased against Toss.
They bash MC saying "lolz sticking to gateway unitz" when 90% of Terrans have been beating Protoss using.. RAX UNITS. But no it's a "bio ball" and is definitely not an all in. Only bitbybit got scrutinized for his all ins, but months and months later we get players like MVP doing the same thing and it's called "tactical".
I think the only way the community will acknowledge a Toss player not doing a "timing" attack is if the opponent is fully ready for it. I've seen games where MC attacks 20 min in and the opponent already established a third and it was still bashed as a "timing/all-in" attack.
The only reason Terrans are not dominating is because they stopped using 1/1/1s and their Ghost cheese-timings tactical pushes got figured out. Oh because a charge upgrade (higher tech) can no longer be stopped by a marauder slow (t1 upgrade).
I don't think the term "timing attack" is derogatory at all. It's just a strong attack at a point in time where your army is strong, and is supposed to do some damage to an opponent- in no way considered is it considered to be cheese. "All in" is completely different, though.
On February 10 2012 09:01 power-overwhelming wrote: Community is always against Toss. So much bias against them. Even these foreign casters are biased against Toss.
They bash MC saying "lolz sticking to gateway unitz" when 90% of Terrans have been beating Protoss using.. RAX UNITS. But no it's a "bio ball" and is definitely not an all in. Only bitbybit got scrutinized for his all ins, but months and months later we get players like MVP doing the same thing and it's called "tactical".
I think the only way the community will acknowledge a Toss player not doing a "timing" attack is if the opponent is fully ready for it. I've seen games where MC attacks 20 min in and the opponent already established a third and it was still bashed as a "timing/all-in" attack.
The only reason Terrans are not dominating is because they stopped using 1/1/1s and their Ghost cheese-timings tactical pushes got figured out. Oh because a charge upgrade (higher tech) can no longer be stopped by a marauder slow (t1 upgrade).
I don't think the term "timing attack" is derogatory at all. It's just a strong attack at a point in time where your army is strong, and is supposed to do some damage to an opponent- in no way considered is it considered to be cheese. "All in" is completely different, though.
Well the word "timing attack" is kind of overused anyway.. Attacking when some upgrade is about to finish regardless of the game time can be called a "timing" nowadays.. Not to give Toss a bad name (I'm a Toss player).. but these Protosses are great and they deserve to be in Ro8
LOOOOOOOOOOOOL at claiming that drg takes nesteas place Drg got a crazy lucky break in that zvz, an ultra-mili-super-duper inch from being murdered by nestea. If nestea had won that game it would have been the other way around.
Nestea has 3 GSLs, winning by such a close call does not change that, fucks sake
On February 10 2012 09:51 Cigar wrote: LOOOOOOOOOOOOL at claiming that drg takes nesteas place Drg got a crazy lucky break in that zvz, an ultra-mili-super-duper inch from being murdered by nestea. If nestea had won that game it would have been the other way around.
Nestea has 3 GSLs, winning by such a close call does not change that, fucks sake
Fanboys like you are sad, read the rest of the article in an objective manner before posting here
It is derogatory because it implies whatever success the player achieved with that attack is because of said timing and nothing else. The community has also separate timing attack from standard play. They seem to be under the impression that a standard Protoss play has to have 3 bases, or it has to be past 25 min mark. If MC thinks he can finish the game in under 10 mins why wouldn't he? People had no qualms when MMA proxy thord Naniwa in blizzcup or when MVP marine tank all ined MC at MLG 3 times.
Watch, in RO8 MMA will proxy whatever building Terran can proxy and it will be called a tactical move. This bias is ridiculous and the only way around it is to just pretend it's not there.
If Gumiho beats Puzzle, I cant see Gumiho winning ro4 against either DRG or Parting. I think Gumiho will not make it to the final.
If Puzzle beats Gumiho then Puzzle can not win against any of the other protosses. Puzzle needs DRG to beat parting to have a chance of reaching the final. Puzzle also needs Alive/MMA to beat MC/Genius to have any chance of winning the GSL.
If Parting beats DRG then Parting will get to the final as he should beat Gumiho or Puzzle. Parting is unlikely to beat MC in the final, so he needs Alive/MMA to beat MC in the ro4.
DRG has a hard ro8 match vs Parting. DRG should easily beat Gumiho in ro4, but might struggle vs Puzzle as Puzzle has a very good PvZ record. DRG would have a very hard time in the final vs MMA or Genius and I doubt DRG has much chance at all vs MC. DRG really wants Alive to make it to the finals.
Genius will almost certainly lose to MC in ro8. Alive and MMA are also not good opponents for Genius in ro4. I cant see Genius making it to the final.
MC should beat Genius. MC would be heavily favoured in the final against Puzzle, Parting or DRG (Gumiho shouldnt make it to the final). MC will have a hard ro4 vs Alive or MMA.
MMA and Alive have a really hard ro8 match. They should be favoured vs MC in the ro4. They would have a hard time in the final against Puzzle or Parting, but a slightly easier time vs DRG.
Overall I think MC has the easiest route to the GSL title.
On February 10 2012 07:25 devPLEASE wrote: So is MMA replacing Mvp and is DRG replacing NesTea? If so, who will replace MC?
Hopefully, Genius
Nah Parting will
I like Genius the most out of the current crop. A lot of toss including Parting play too greedy. (well except maybe MC since most of his games are 6-gates) I don't know whether they are truly comfortable playing greedy or simply gambling, but it just doesn't look as solid as Genius' play. Genius' safe play and incredible map awareness (plus insta-reactions) impress me than any other tosses blindly opening with nexus first or getting a 3rd with less than 10 units.
On February 10 2012 09:01 power-overwhelming wrote: Community is always against Toss. So much bias against them. Even these foreign casters are biased against Toss.
They bash MC saying "lolz sticking to gateway unitz" when 90% of Terrans have been beating Protoss using.. RAX UNITS. But no it's a "bio ball" and is definitely not an all in. Only bitbybit got scrutinized for his all ins, but months and months later we get players like MVP doing the same thing and it's called "tactical".
I think the only way the community will acknowledge a Toss player not doing a "timing" attack is if the opponent is fully ready for it. I've seen games where MC attacks 20 min in and the opponent already established a third and it was still bashed as a "timing/all-in" attack.
The only reason Terrans are not dominating is because they stopped using 1/1/1s and their Ghost cheese-timings tactical pushes got figured out. Oh because a charge upgrade (higher tech) can no longer be stopped by a marauder slow (t1 upgrade).
I don't think the term "timing attack" is derogatory at all. It's just a strong attack at a point in time where your army is strong, and is supposed to do some damage to an opponent- in no way considered is it considered to be cheese. "All in" is completely different, though.
The problem is that almost any Toss timing attack off < 3 bases is all-in to some degree, especially against a macro zerg. IMO, it's a problem with language. You have to kill, cancel, or at least de-worker the third or you just get run over with mass bio/muta/Zerg T3. You don't have to win the game right there, which to me is the only truly all-in type of push. But so many non-toss deride pressure on the third as "all-in" that it's worked its way into the vernacular. Now granted, often if your timing fails/does weak damage, the mobility of bio or mutas or even lings (if you lost the fight badly enough) will deny your third for eons, but that means you are BEHIND. You haven't lost. That's the boundary between timing attacks and all-ins.
On February 10 2012 09:59 hzflank wrote: When I look at the brackets, I think:
DRG has a hard ro8 match vs Parting. DRG should easily beat Gumiho in ro4, but might struggle vs Puzzle as Puzzle has a very good PvZ record. DRG would have a very hard time in the final vs MMA or Genius and I doubt DRG has much chance at all vs MC. DRG really wants Alive to make it to the finals..
I don't understand why everyone thinks DRG will have problems facing Parting...DRG just dismantled Oz in the FXOpen lately and beat Parting convincingly in the KSL.
Only reason DRG lost to Genius was because Genius's style specifically counters mutalisks, which DRG likes to make.
You all protoss are willingly forgetting about big part of equation.
Protoss has one of most cost effective unit combinations, zergs on the other hand are forced to use cost innefective hardcountered units.
How to balance this ? Obviously by using standard "1 base more than your opponent macro formula."
FFE breaks this standard by forcing game on equal macro terms with zerg, while using better units. So Z has to respond : 1, take third and create window of opportunity for opponent to kill him with 2 base allin 2, try 2 base abusive strategy like mass muta into expands + forced basetrade (punishable by some allins and being figured out) 3, try 6 pool which is ONLY build available to punish FFE (does not even work on all of positions) 4, try to play macro game into 40 minutes infestor broodlord and hope P misses his vortex
All of this creates uniform uniteresting allininsh games, it creats feeling of ZvP being broken. I stopped playing 2 moths ago becouse i was sure that after mass muta abuse will be figured out ZvP will be almost unwinnable and here we are ladies and gentlemen, we reached this stage of game.
Real problem is that after multiple protoss buffs zergs have no real core ZvP unit anymore. Multiple zerg players keeps stating they dont understand ZvP anymore, they dont understand what is correct way to play the matchup .... think about it before u demand respect.
On February 10 2012 11:05 Pitrocelli wrote: Real problem is that after multiple protoss buffs zergs have no real core ZvP unit anymore. Multiple zerg players keeps stating they dont understand ZvP anymore, they dont understand what is correct way to play the matchup .... think about it before u demand respect.
Well, outside of all-in's, most Zs in GSL seem to believe the best way to beat P is to transition into mass mutas without getting caught.*
On February 10 2012 11:05 Pitrocelli wrote: You all protoss are willingly forgetting about big part of equation.
Protoss has one of most cost effective unit combinations, zergs on the other hand are forced to use cost innefective hardcountered units.
How to balance this ? Obviously by using standard "1 base more than your opponent macro formula."
FFE breaks this standard by forcing game on equal macro terms with zerg, while using better units. So Z has to respond : 1, take third and create window of opportunity for opponent to kill him with 2 base allin 2, try 2 base abusive strategy like mass muta into expands + forced basetrade (punishable by some allins and being figured out) 3, try 6 pool which is ONLY build available to punish FFE (does not even work on all of positions) 4, try to play macro game into 40 minutes infestor broodlord and hope P misses his vortex
All of this creates uniform uniteresting allininsh games, it creats feeling of ZvP being broken. I stopped playing 2 moths ago becouse i was sure that after mass muta abuse will be figured out ZvP will be almost unwinnable and here we are ladies and gentlemen, we reached this stage of game.
Real problem is that after multiple protoss buffs zergs have no real core ZvP unit anymore. Multiple zerg players keeps stating they dont understand ZvP anymore, they dont understand what is correct way to play the matchup .... think about it before u demand respect.
Terrible post. Go whine in the Designated Balance Discussion. Keep our board clean from filth like this.
I don't think Nestea is going anywhere anytime soon but I did enjoy the final drama of the article. I need to pay more attention to other Korean Protosses, Ive become complacent in just assuming MC was The One.
I gotta say I'm loving the new GSL format. Just look at all the potential storylines it has in the Ro8: -The current king MMA is still in. -The resurgent fan favorite, MC -The king of kong DRG -The old guard and master of ceremonies Genius -Possible royal roader in Parting (who has actually IMO been the most impressive looking for Protoss so far this GSL)
Genius had been lighting it up, but when he lost to MKP I thought he was done. His PvZ looked awesome and game 3 of the second series against MKP was mind-blowing for me as a Protoss player. I've already watched that game 3 times and just marveled at his patience. Making that lighting-quick correct decision to abandon his third, save his units and re-position his army while MKP was attacking was one of the best strategic maneuvers I've seen in a while.
In November of 2010, Nestea became the best Zerg player in the world. A year and two months later, his era has finally come to a close. Arguably, DRG had already been the better player for a few months – he was beating better opponents in a more convincing fashion, while Nestea was living off the benefit of the doubt. You could see that Nestea just wasn't the same. He didn't have the same sense of control over the game as he had before, and that his mechanics were just not as good as some of the newer players.
However, he had been such a storied champion, and such a loved one that we could not bear to see him go. We removed doubt from our minds, and prayed that he would come back the way we remembered him. He could not have stepped down peacefully, not even if he had tried. We wouldn't have let him.
Perhaps it was his final act of benevolence unto his Zerg subjects, that Nestea invited DongRaeGu into his group. Times had changed, and Zerg needed a new hero – one not weary from over a decade of fighting, one who had yet to feel the first touch of complacency – to carry it forward. But Zerg demanded that its champion be chosen through a trial by blood...
DongRaeGu, take your crown.
I'm sorry but just, no. I believe that DRG is a better player than Nestea and have been thinking that for a few months, but this reasoning is so anecdotal it's ridiculous. Or better yet the thing that spawned such a statement that probably never would have been said otherwise is completely anecdotal. You talk as though Nestea just handed in his resignation to the pro scene and yet all that happened was a RO16 knockout. The biggest thing though is that DRG's games vs MKP showed DRG's skill far far greater than DRG vs Nestea games. I think you have to be a little crazy to think that Nestea didn't have a lead at crucial points in both games, and so did DRG. However Nestea in both the 2nd and third game literally THREW AWAY any good position he had at those crucial points due to decision making that was in no way congruent with almost all of Nestea's previously good play.
Here's the tricky part, all of what I just said still promoted the fact that DRG did play better. We are all aware that decision making is a huge part of any aspect of life including RTS games and this means therefore that greater decision making = greater level of skill(in one aspect). But the point I try and make here is that Nestea made decisions in both game 2 and 3 that actually made me facepalm SO HARD when I just saw him starting to make the decision because it wasn't a Nestea level decision.
Nestea game 2: "Hmm I think if I attack into this giant concave that DRG has, and not micro my units, and not even have them all in attack range, I can beat this army"
I've seen literally every televized game Nestea has played and have watched him stream on the IM stream and this is SO not the kind of decision Nestea would make.
Nestea game 3: "How about without sending a single ling, overlord, overseer, changeling, SINGLE Infestor, I just run all my fucking Infestors into DRG's base, splitting them up, and watch them get demolished by Queens and spines because obviously at this time in the game DRG has detection every which way possible"
I mean I don't honestly know how in god's name he thought this was a good idea at the time, but clearly he had a stroke while he was playing this game.
So in the end, I'm not convinced. As COMPLETELY RETARDED as the decisions Nestea made in those games were, I still look to Nestea as the Zerg hero personally, and will until he is clearly completely washed up. I just really don't believe that those sets were a good example of how Nestea has played, and can still play.
On February 10 2012 15:41 Share_The_Land wrote: So in the end, I'm not convinced. As COMPLETELY RETARDED as the decisions Nestea made in those games were, I still look to Nestea as the Zerg hero personally, and will until he is clearly completely washed up. I just really don't believe that those sets were a good example of how Nestea has played, and can still play.
How many times are we going to sit around and blindly defend nestea? He's been awful with decisions since last Fall. He threw away the Blizzcon Finals with 27 broodlords without support He threw away Code S November by attacking archons with mass banelings and then AFK his mutas He threw away BlizzCup by running his entire army into a corner so Polt could shoot them up
There is a trend going on here.... I think Nestea is very smart, but under pressure he just spasms and goes brain dead. We cannot keep justifying his mistakes... I think his reputation at this point is virtually irreparable...unless he wins another GSL or so...which isn't going to happen anytime soon, guaranteed.
On February 10 2012 11:05 Pitrocelli wrote: You all protoss are willingly forgetting about big part of equation.
Protoss has one of most cost effective unit combinations, zergs on the other hand are forced to use cost innefective hardcountered units.
How to balance this ? Obviously by using standard "1 base more than your opponent macro formula."
FFE breaks this standard by forcing game on equal macro terms with zerg, while using better units. So Z has to respond : 1, take third and create window of opportunity for opponent to kill him with 2 base allin 2, try 2 base abusive strategy like mass muta into expands + forced basetrade (punishable by some allins and being figured out) 3, try 6 pool which is ONLY build available to punish FFE (does not even work on all of positions) 4, try to play macro game into 40 minutes infestor broodlord and hope P misses his vortex
All of this creates uniform uniteresting allininsh games, it creats feeling of ZvP being broken. I stopped playing 2 moths ago becouse i was sure that after mass muta abuse will be figured out ZvP will be almost unwinnable and here we are ladies and gentlemen, we reached this stage of game.
Real problem is that after multiple protoss buffs zergs have no real core ZvP unit anymore. Multiple zerg players keeps stating they dont understand ZvP anymore, they dont understand what is correct way to play the matchup .... think about it before u demand respect.
Sad stuff here because, as right as you are, your way to present things will only cause people to whine about your 'trolling balance talks'. I however couldn't agree more with you. PvZ is indeed extremely broken. I say that as a Terran player who has completely lost interest in watching PvZ -for the exact same reasons that you've stated in your post, I barely ever see anything going Zerg's way-. Protoss in general has become an awfully boring race to watch because yes, any big-scaled attack on 2 bases without robot -immortal burst set aside- is an all-in. It focuses the entire income on producing low-tier units, the entire chronoboosting on the gates and, if it doesn't deal a huge amount of damage -like kill a chunk of 20scvs against T or quite simply kill a Z player who's on 3 bases-, P loses the game. Not to mention Protosses quite naturally want to win and have as a consequence a very annoying tendency to sit defensively on X bases and wait for an unkillable maxed-out deathball before doing anything relevant at all. Now don't get me wrong I like a lot of Protoss players -MC especially-. I just think that P's always been the broken race in the game, and that people seem 'biased' for a reason. I wouldn't mind seeing only Zergs and Terrans in the GSL these days, no kidding.
On February 10 2012 11:05 Pitrocelli wrote: You all protoss are willingly forgetting about big part of equation.
Protoss has one of most cost effective unit combinations, zergs on the other hand are forced to use cost innefective hardcountered units.
How to balance this ? Obviously by using standard "1 base more than your opponent macro formula."
FFE breaks this standard by forcing game on equal macro terms with zerg, while using better units. So Z has to respond : 1, take third and create window of opportunity for opponent to kill him with 2 base allin 2, try 2 base abusive strategy like mass muta into expands + forced basetrade (punishable by some allins and being figured out) 3, try 6 pool which is ONLY build available to punish FFE (does not even work on all of positions) 4, try to play macro game into 40 minutes infestor broodlord and hope P misses his vortex
All of this creates uniform uniteresting allininsh games, it creats feeling of ZvP being broken. I stopped playing 2 moths ago becouse i was sure that after mass muta abuse will be figured out ZvP will be almost unwinnable and here we are ladies and gentlemen, we reached this stage of game.
Real problem is that after multiple protoss buffs zergs have no real core ZvP unit anymore. Multiple zerg players keeps stating they dont understand ZvP anymore, they dont understand what is correct way to play the matchup .... think about it before u demand respect.
Not to mention Protosses quite naturally want to win and have as a consequence a very annoying tendency to sit defensively on X bases and wait for an unkillable maxed-out deathball before doing anything relevant at all.
On February 10 2012 05:34 SeaSwift wrote: I'm surprised that Protoss balance has become such a big thing recently. 4 Protoss in the ro8, compared to 3 Terrans, is not a big deal, especially when Protoss was doing so badly for so long.
It's not about where you were. It's where you're at that matters.
i like how you say that MVP and Nestea are replaced but don't mention specific names, but at the same time am annoyed cus i wanna know what you think haha (or did you leave it open cus you're not sure?)
Poor nestea will miss you!
And lol DRG new Yellow again! DRG vs MMA finals again yea? (tho hopefully more epic than last time -- the individual sets i mean, not the match overall -- hopefully it's epic like jjakji vs leenock)
No one in this thread is talking about Alive, but there is a reason why all the players are afraid of him. Alive could very well take it. MMA didn't look so hot in his last games.
MC v Genius... I like Genius. Smart, good positioning and invested in the long game... you can bet your ass that MC won't let him get that far. MC has far too many timings.
Gumiho v Puzzle... Gumiho's sloppy multiplays may actually be a benefit to him v the more efficient toss. He can just keep trading till he wins.
Parting v DRG... DRG is actually too good now.
I think it'd be MC vs DRG in the finals, either way.
I'm obviously disappointed by Nestea's performance, but I don't think DongRaeGu's done anything sufficiently notable to justify the Zerg crown. The DRG-Nestea match was hardly conclusive (the last game could and should have been won by either player at several points). Sure, DRG is probably playing slightly better than Nestea right now, but then so is Leenock. Call me when another Zerg wins the GSL title. Until then, I think the crown is contested.
I enjoyed game 2 of NesTea vs Genius! Keeping mutalisk numbers low by forcing lots of smaller engagments and incorporating phoenixes into his main army.
On February 12 2012 21:40 Sc2Null wrote: so...DRG beats a bunch of lower-tier players in GSTL then beats nestea once in a ZvZ...so he is the best zerg...strange
I guess you didn't watch MLG Providence where DRG beat MMA, MC, KiwiKaki and Leenock.
And you didn't watch BlizzardCup where DRG beat IMMVP, MC, LiquidHero and gave the greatest best of 7 the world had ever seen.
Guessing you didn't watch the KingofKong where DRG just stomps nerds with his tennis shoes
or the KSL 2012 where DRG took out Squirtle and Parting
or FXOpen Invitational where he just took out Oz
not to mention, sC, JYP, MKP, Nestea this current GSL
Yea....all those players are sure low-tier.... Get your information straight, yo.
MC is and will always be president because he *can* do everything these upstarts can AND is the innovator and winner with the best micro. Plus he's a total baller. Parting is the latest upstart to the throne but once people start analyzing just how greedy he plays he will be figured out like the rest come and gone. If you want bread and circus protoss watch MC's games where opponent manages to hold off one of his attacks. He's given the best PvXs of all time.
EPT
MVPDongRaeGu, 
MarineKingPrime, 
MVPGenius![[image loading]](/blogs/images/blackstar.gif)
