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On July 24 2010 06:21 the.bishOp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 05:59 humanimal wrote:On July 24 2010 05:40 Lane wrote:
This proves that people on these forums only respect people based on their post count, and how big of a post they type.
The OP is clearly Protoss biased, and gives bad info and suggestions.
- Banelings are already vulnerable to being killed early without dealing any damage. This gets worse and worse late game. Suggesting a nerf on top of this just doesn't make any sense.
- Fungal Growth does 36 damage over 8 seconds, not 80 like the OP says. It's not even enough to kill Marines. And he continues to exaggerate the power of this ability even more.
- He says Protoss can never dodge EMP, which is not true. Many of the EMP shots miss their targets all the time, even in the pro-level games. Because units sometimes can move out of the way while Ghost is trying to get in range to do the shot. The ability has already been nerfed. There is no need for more.
- He says more of Terran and Zerg units should die from a single storm, if not micro'ed, because currently there is not enough incentive to dodge it. Really? First of all, he doesn't even mention that Hydras die from a single storm (80HP) and are expensive units. He says it "cripples" them. That is incorrect, it actually kills them. Also, who says a single storm should kill most units. Why shouldn't there be an incentive for getting more than one HT?
- Adding cast time to Fungal Growth just so Terran bio can dodge it is also a terrible idea. Terran bio with the combination of Stim Pack and Concussive shells already prevents Zerg from running away from combat. It is only fair that Fungal Growth exists that can do the same, which by the way is more expensive and micro heavy in comparison. It's not like Terran bio is melee based. Fungal Growth does not even stop them from shooting.
Again, people should read and analyze a post before throwing empty praises at someone.
Okay first, the respect/posts part is not true. They do get priority but most of the respect is due to a long history of quality posts that got them to that number. I, myself do not have many posts (spent most of my time on TL without an account, just reading stuff) so I'll leave this up to others (reading the 10 commandments explains the idea behind the many posts → respect, check it out sometime). The EMP dodging is referring to after the EMP has been launched. Sure the units can dodge before the ghost gets in range, but that isn't really dodging then because the shot hasn't been fired. The Terran player could just as easily cancel the EMP and aim it again. The problem is that if the ghost is commanded to shoot while in range, there's a little to no chance that you can dodge it. As for storm, Plexa is not saying that it should be stronger. He's saying that it should be a situation where a gamer has to make the on-the-spot decision of "should I stay knowing that I can do more now, or should I run knowing that I'll survive and be able to do more later" Same with the Fungal Growth. I'm not trying to argue balance here, and neither is the OP. His suggestions weren't meant to be isolated and you're treating them as such. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of readers read this in context of adding competitive play, excitement for watching, as well as more power to the gamer. Try rereading the post with a different attitude before you disregard everything and write a rebuttal. Sure the post isn't perfect in writing (though IMO it's pretty darn good), but what a lot of people who disagree are missing is that the purpose for this being written is to introduce the "wow" factor that made SC:BW so much fun to play and watch. Sorry if I came off as a bit rude; I tried my best to be critical but honest. Doesn't matter if balance is not the issue. By trying to put on "wow" artificially like that you throw off balance anyway. All the changes combined are so heavily toss-friendly that anyone who agrees 100% with the post must be joking. And it doesn't help any "wow" factor introducing harder to hit spells. There are a LOT of underused units in the game as is and the units that are used often are not used that well. The game is not as clunky and is a lot smarter than BW. Units FEEL more fragile and the game FEELS faster. A lot of actions spent in BW can now be used elsewhere in SC2. Micro is a lot more delicate because of scale too. And I have seen a lot of really really impressive SC2. Just saw one last night on Day9. Great use of a wide range of units (some of wich are considered bad by some users) and with LOTS of room for improvements from both sides (we all know what game that was right?).
But once again, I'm not trying to argue balance here, and neither is the OP. His suggestions weren't meant to be isolated and you're treating them as such..
Plexa, along with the collective community want to introduce that wow factor, but I doubt any of us would want that more than we want balance. These ideas can be introduced along with other things to maintain balance, if not increase it.
Yes, the game is smarter and plays differently than BW, but what we're vying for is the interactive play that made the skill cap that much higher. The game that you're referencing was fantastic and I loved the variety of units, but I don't think it should take that much to have an amazing match.
In closing, I want to quote the OP:
On July 23 2010 18:28 Plexa wrote:
The ideas presented here are just ideas. They are ideas that we feel have the right design philosophy behind them, but they are not restrictive in any way. The changes we suggested are designed to motivate players to micro and encourage control based counters to units as opposed to unit based counters.
EDIT: Just saw Saracen's post. I'll remove this if Mods feel it's unnecessary.
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Nice read, I fully agree with the general idea and suggestions. I disagree with some small details (Forcefield doesnt just give you a "small" edge, it's a game changing spell correctly used etc...) but I would love to see more of those "wow" moments, I really hope blizzard will read this and have some great ideas.
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great read. my two cents for psionic storm:
make it do more damage the longer time goes, eg ticks 10,15,15,40 or something like that(something that makes shield-marines worth microing out of storm). this always encourages moving out of storm and has good synergy with force fields.
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On July 24 2010 05:40 Lane wrote:
This proves that people on these forums only respect people based on their post count, and how big of a post they type.
The OP is clearly Protoss biased, and gives bad info and suggestions.
- Banelings are already vulnerable to being killed early without dealing any damage. This gets worse and worse late game. Suggesting a nerf on top of this just doesn't make any sense.
- Fungal Growth does 36 damage over 8 seconds, not 80 like the OP says. It's not even enough to kill Marines. And he continues to exaggerate the power of this ability even more.
- He says Protoss can never dodge EMP, which is not true. Many of the EMP shots miss their targets all the time, even in the pro-level games. Because units sometimes can move out of the way while Ghost is trying to get in range to do the shot. The ability has already been nerfed. There is no need for more.
- He says more of Terran and Zerg units should die from a single storm, if not micro'ed, because currently there is not enough incentive to dodge it. Really? First of all, he doesn't even mention that Hydras die from a single storm (80HP) and are expensive units. He says it "cripples" them. That is incorrect, it actually kills them. Also, who says a single storm should kill most units. Why shouldn't there be an incentive for getting more than one HT?
- Adding cast time to Fungal Growth just so Terran bio can dodge it is also a terrible idea. Terran bio with the combination of Stim Pack and Concussive shells already prevents Zerg from running away from combat. It is only fair that Fungal Growth exists that can do the same, which by the way is more expensive and micro heavy in comparison. It's not like Terran bio is melee based. Fungal Growth does not even stop them from shooting.
Again, people should read and analyze a post before throwing empty praises at someone.
I agree completely with this! Banelings are already weak enough and if you really wanted to have more of a wow factor with fungal growth you would make it do way more damage and then you might give it a slower moving attack animation.
Zerg also might need one more interesting spell on the overseer or infestor but other than that I am absolutely loving the game. The recent game between TLO and TBO (aka Tester playing on TLO's brother's account) was just absolutely amazing and I think is the way more higher level matches are going to be going as people figure out how to defend against the newer rushes.
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As the Tf2 commentator woman would say, "YES! YES! YES!!!"
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On July 24 2010 05:23 the.bishOp wrote:
And there is already a difference in radius when using X to "activate" suicide.
Is this true? That would be great, but I'm not convinced it is so.
Very nice OP. As others said, I think you should have made it more clear that your concern is not with balance. For example, obviously Banelings would need more damage on manual suicide than they do now, and FG/EMP should be buffed in other ways as well.
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I would rate this article as good packaging but with moderate to poor content.
As a Terran I find no problems with Banelings, they cost gas, minerals and one zergling. Any Zerg that goes banelings will have allot of zerglings wich just screams marauder/banshee play. And the baneling bust is no problem either for those who understands that you can make a Ebay/barrack/factory wallin. The voidray still is the biggest problem due to that it is fucking unstoppable once it's fully charged.
Now, don't get me wrong, things can be done to minimize this. Keep your buildings off the ledges of your base and build as close around your base center as much as possible. This will keep the voidray from being able to charge up on your buildings, which is why the Voidray becomes so damn strong. This way you won't die but the problem is still that one voidray can keep a entire army pinned down in your base which is BS. The protoss can stalk you with his flying siege tank forcing you to tech to starport and produce 2 vikings, until you have 2 vikings you won't get rid of the damn thing and the Protoss can do whatever he wants, like expanding 3 times over.
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"Dustin Browder: "We are aware of Void Ray fazing and we will be addressing that."
Too bad they are going to get rid of fazing.
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You sir, most definitely, have the WOW-factor.
It's a good post and we will have to wait to see if Blizzard agrees with your points.
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edit: Somehow posted in the wrong forum ... shouldnt open three TL tabs.. sorry
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On July 24 2010 06:41 humanimal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 06:21 the.bishOp wrote:On July 24 2010 05:59 humanimal wrote:On July 24 2010 05:40 Lane wrote:
This proves that people on these forums only respect people based on their post count, and how big of a post they type.
The OP is clearly Protoss biased, and gives bad info and suggestions.
- Banelings are already vulnerable to being killed early without dealing any damage. This gets worse and worse late game. Suggesting a nerf on top of this just doesn't make any sense.
- Fungal Growth does 36 damage over 8 seconds, not 80 like the OP says. It's not even enough to kill Marines. And he continues to exaggerate the power of this ability even more.
- He says Protoss can never dodge EMP, which is not true. Many of the EMP shots miss their targets all the time, even in the pro-level games. Because units sometimes can move out of the way while Ghost is trying to get in range to do the shot. The ability has already been nerfed. There is no need for more.
- He says more of Terran and Zerg units should die from a single storm, if not micro'ed, because currently there is not enough incentive to dodge it. Really? First of all, he doesn't even mention that Hydras die from a single storm (80HP) and are expensive units. He says it "cripples" them. That is incorrect, it actually kills them. Also, who says a single storm should kill most units. Why shouldn't there be an incentive for getting more than one HT?
- Adding cast time to Fungal Growth just so Terran bio can dodge it is also a terrible idea. Terran bio with the combination of Stim Pack and Concussive shells already prevents Zerg from running away from combat. It is only fair that Fungal Growth exists that can do the same, which by the way is more expensive and micro heavy in comparison. It's not like Terran bio is melee based. Fungal Growth does not even stop them from shooting.
Again, people should read and analyze a post before throwing empty praises at someone.
Okay first, the respect/posts part is not true. They do get priority but most of the respect is due to a long history of quality posts that got them to that number. I, myself do not have many posts (spent most of my time on TL without an account, just reading stuff) so I'll leave this up to others (reading the 10 commandments explains the idea behind the many posts → respect, check it out sometime). The EMP dodging is referring to after the EMP has been launched. Sure the units can dodge before the ghost gets in range, but that isn't really dodging then because the shot hasn't been fired. The Terran player could just as easily cancel the EMP and aim it again. The problem is that if the ghost is commanded to shoot while in range, there's a little to no chance that you can dodge it. As for storm, Plexa is not saying that it should be stronger. He's saying that it should be a situation where a gamer has to make the on-the-spot decision of "should I stay knowing that I can do more now, or should I run knowing that I'll survive and be able to do more later" Same with the Fungal Growth. I'm not trying to argue balance here, and neither is the OP. His suggestions weren't meant to be isolated and you're treating them as such. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of readers read this in context of adding competitive play, excitement for watching, as well as more power to the gamer. Try rereading the post with a different attitude before you disregard everything and write a rebuttal. Sure the post isn't perfect in writing (though IMO it's pretty darn good), but what a lot of people who disagree are missing is that the purpose for this being written is to introduce the "wow" factor that made SC:BW so much fun to play and watch. Sorry if I came off as a bit rude; I tried my best to be critical but honest. Doesn't matter if balance is not the issue. By trying to put on "wow" artificially like that you throw off balance anyway. All the changes combined are so heavily toss-friendly that anyone who agrees 100% with the post must be joking. And it doesn't help any "wow" factor introducing harder to hit spells. There are a LOT of underused units in the game as is and the units that are used often are not used that well. The game is not as clunky and is a lot smarter than BW. Units FEEL more fragile and the game FEELS faster. A lot of actions spent in BW can now be used elsewhere in SC2. Micro is a lot more delicate because of scale too. And I have seen a lot of really really impressive SC2. Just saw one last night on Day9. Great use of a wide range of units (some of wich are considered bad by some users) and with LOTS of room for improvements from both sides (we all know what game that was right?). But once again, I'm not trying to argue balance here, and neither is the OP. His suggestions weren't meant to be isolated and you're treating them as such..Plexa, along with the collective community want to introduce that wow factor, but I doubt any of us would want that more than we want balance. These ideas can be introduced along with other things to maintain balance, if not increase it. Yes, the game is smarter and plays differently than BW, but what we're vying for is the interactive play that made the skill cap that much higher. The game that you're referencing was fantastic and I loved the variety of units, but I don't think it should take that much to have an amazing match. In closing, I want to quote the OP: Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 18:28 Plexa wrote:
The ideas presented here are just ideas. They are ideas that we feel have the right design philosophy behind them, but they are not restrictive in any way. The changes we suggested are designed to motivate players to micro and encourage control based counters to units as opposed to unit based counters.
EDIT: Just saw Saracen's post. I'll remove this if Mods feel it's unnecessary.
Do you really feel that the game mechanics are what really limits "microing" as is? The changes in the article are not meant to take in consideration game balance and whatnot, I get that. If you look at each one individually there are some that makes sense and there are others that doesn't.
Killed banelings doing less damage makes no sense at all. It isn't a problem AND MICROING THE BANELINGS ALREADY HAS A HIGHER REWARD. That's KEY. Most of the others suggestions might seem like good ideas, making timing your spells rewarding but I fail to see any suggestion in the original post that would reward Protoss in the same manner.
Making storms more powerful isn't a suggestion, it's asking for a buff. Infestors are underused anyway and in a lot of games you see people simply SCREW UP a LOT.
You guys are trying to fix and push the skill cap on something that no one has yet dominated. I do not care how one "feels" or one "thinks" about the game. We all can download and watch replays from those players who "feels" the game is somewhat easier to master and see a gigantic number of mistakes in every game.
You see a LOT of units killed for nothing, you see a LOT of harass fail for lack of micro. How many games did you see that a player has the capacity to strike on multiple bases at the same time without losing focus on one of the "fronts" and keep up with the macro? I have seen hundreds of casts and not ONE single game that happened with success.
And the unit variety to do that is there. You can drop with pretty much any race, you can nydus worm, reaper harass, banshee cloak, void ray harass, colossus harass, baneling bust an open expansion, raven harass, DT harass, helion harass, infested terran bombing and more.
There are tons and tons of strategies that are not explored and even the "pros" display some very poor micro most of the times. How many times have you seen a proper use of blinking stalkers? You can blink out of focus fire so fast that it really screws up the enemy AI. All we see from 99,9% of the players is the "something" ball, one control group army.
It really surprises me how one can complain about lack of micro if they can't micro what they have properly.
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Great read! I love the idea of Guardian Shield blocking Emp..perfect.
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good read def true. void ray is like the lurker of sc2, just like banelings and all the other stuff mentioned
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i absolutly agree!!
my main critic in the game was exactly the point you were talking about. i thought for example about the reaver-drop in BW and asked me, what it that amaezing in sc2? maby colossus drop? maby infestor drop with fungal groth? they are amazeing, but not quite as amazeing as reaverdrops. and they need not that many skill, how you already mentioned.
That made me have a little bit fear about sc2 in the future. and i still think, if these things will not be added to the game, then sc2 will not be as amazing as sc:bw.
in general i think, most of your explanations are reasonable and right.
the only question now is: how can we make blizzard see and react about this article which is by the way very nice written and a pleasure to read.
maby we should send them an e-mail or something...
i am sure blizzard will read it if they now about it because they want to make sc2 an epic game. maby they will not do all of these changes you mentioned but at least some of them because they do not change the balance that much and make the game much harder to play it on a very high level. it will not change the low level gameplay at all because newbe's will not be able to use most of these "tricks".
PS: grats on your 20k post^^
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EMP is absolutely a wow spell since high templar has higher feed back range than the ghost's emp.
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On July 23 2010 19:14 Amestir wrote:
I agree with alot of what you said, however there is one thing I disagree with. You say it's very easy to find units with a potential wow factor, however it took 5 months to find the full potential of the Void Ray. I like to think that there are many units in SC2 atm who already have the ability to show as much depth and skill as the Void Ray does, we just haven't found them yet.
Gratz on your 20k ^^
also, the op talked about force fields and storms
what happens when used together?
trap some roaches, then throw some storms on them. they die
i guess this is why Blizzard made force fields easier to block units in patch17
We didn't figure it out. They are waiting for us to figure things out.
some units are not "wow", because they are only wow when combined with other units
the void ray is "wow" on it's own
(ex. reaver+shuttle in sc1, 2 units which on their own are weak, but when combined have huge potential, especcially gainst an unsuspecting terran)
in the videos, the void rays ripped some marines to shreds. why didn't any1 consider making a ghost? it's practically good against any protoss unit, and against void rays it's exceptional support for the marines.(yes, i am talking about the EMP)
alot of combinations like these pop into my mind. i remember in the beginning no terran used hellions. it's an exceptional unit, fast and cheap, yet people disregarded it completely.
could it be that us players are too subjective and see the hellion as a modified vulture?
we want the old vultures back so much that we can't just sit down and think how we can use the hellion better?
are we too stubborn to think of new ways to harrass instead of complaining that 2 base mutas is useless?
there are alot of wow units and wow abilities:
the broodlord, the void ray, the banshee, the immortal, the ghost even low tier units like
marauders with concussive shells, zealots once they get legs, roaches once they get burrow and speed
(ex. zealot legs drastically change the relationship between zealots and siege tanks, between zealots and hydras, while burrowed roaches can pop up into your main and clean up your whole base if you don't pay attention)
5 months of beta where the game changed shape almost from week to week is not enough for us to figure out.
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United States3824 Posts
Lol TL said something nice and inspiring to Blizzard
nice writeup
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On July 24 2010 10:08 anoobis wrote:
EMP is absolutely a wow spell since high templar has higher feed back range than the ghost's emp.
not truly in the sense this article is saying. it's one sided micro. u can't dodge emp. itll get off 98% of the time.
the truly wow thing will be templars feedbacking every individual ghost. in the current state, that's the only wow thing, but only so b/c it's impossible to pull off. reaver scarabs were wow, but it wasn't impossible by any means.
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This unit is clearly the only reason to you're still beating me in PvZ Plexa, YOUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED >(
Ah I can't wait for release, great article!
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EPT
