EPT[SC2B] Filling the Void - Page 9
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Ecto
Denmark54 Posts
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Muff2n
United Kingdom251 Posts
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humanimal
United States151 Posts
 And I think this is exactly what people were looking for in sc2; that part of the game that allowed players to make a crazy comeback at a clutch moment. The deciding factor that was kinda a final hope. On July 23 2010 19:48 RogerRus wrote: But: If the shield could block EMP, going for ghosts somewhat early in pvt would be too risky, it costs too much for the terran if it can be that easily blocked. To make a EMP blocking shield you would have to make sentries more expensive , or add a upgrade to do it. Most likely both. But maybe that would be a welcomed upgrade to the pretty much useless twilight council... As a protoss player, I think that would be a great way to change the game. Adds in a bit more micro that the game seems to be lacking Here's to some intense theorycrafting just before the game release!  EDIT: And similar to Huk's desire to be the "Lim Yo Hwan of Starcraft 2" I wanna see some Jaedong-esque harass micro Would it be possible for the void ray to become a stalling unit to transition from early game gateway units to late game colossus/ht v. bio? Would the main purpose be for stalling and allowing P to transition into late game, or would it be more limited in it's use due to play style? I can't think of a major "IMBA" spell that would change the role of a PvX matchup the same way that dark swarm did (goes back to the | ||
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Fincheronious
United States37 Posts
Most of the crazy powerful spells in broodwar had instant casting time so why should it be a problem in this game? You can still dodge instant cast spells by paying attention to the position of casters. You should worry less about fixing a bad situation that you are already in and start thinking about how to avoid a bad situation altogether, and you will start to realize more dynamics in competitive play. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
Mutalisks had very short range but were fairly mobile and powerful, on the other hand Guardians had very long range but were extremely slow and easily countered by air. Void Rays didn't have any real weaknesses until the nerf, and I would much rather a range nerf than a damage nerf. The Guardian Shield idea seems really awesome, although you would need an EMP nullifying effect (for example the emp flying in but not exploding) for it to have spectator value. Otherwise people might get confused. However all the spells being nerfed to the point of boring is 100% to do with smart-casting, and I would imagine Guardian Shield would just end up becoming a shadow of its former self. Great article overall, one of the more enjoyable, and more optimistic articles I've read. | ||
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the.bishOp
25 Posts
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Lane
United States46 Posts
The OP is clearly Protoss biased, and gives bad info and suggestions. - Banelings are already vulnerable to being killed early without dealing any damage. This gets worse and worse late game. Suggesting a nerf on top of this just doesn't make any sense. - Fungal Growth does 36 damage over 8 seconds, not 80 like the OP says. It's not even enough to kill Marines. And he continues to exaggerate the power of this ability even more. - He says Protoss can never dodge EMP, which is not true. Many of the EMP shots miss their targets all the time, even in the pro-level games. Because units sometimes can move out of the way while Ghost is trying to get in range to do the shot. The ability has already been nerfed. There is no need for more. - He says more of Terran and Zerg units should die from a single storm, if not micro'ed, because currently there is not enough incentive to dodge it. Really? First of all, he doesn't even mention that Hydras die from a single storm (80HP) and are expensive units. He says it "cripples" them. That is incorrect, it actually kills them. Also, who says a single storm should kill most units. Why shouldn't there be an incentive for getting more than one HT? - Adding cast time to Fungal Growth just so Terran bio can dodge it is also a terrible idea. Terran bio with the combination of Stim Pack and Concussive shells already prevents Zerg from running away from combat. It is only fair that Fungal Growth exists that can do the same, which by the way is more expensive and micro heavy in comparison. It's not like Terran bio is melee based. Fungal Growth does not even stop them from shooting. Again, people should read and analyze a post before throwing empty praises at someone. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 24 2010 05:40 Lane wrote: This proves that people on these forums only respect people based on their post count, and how big of a post they type. The OP is clearly Protoss biased, and gives bad info and suggestions. - Banelings are already vulnerable to being killed early without dealing any damage. This gets worse and worse late game. Suggesting a nerf on top of this just doesn't make any sense. - Fungal Growth does 36 damage over 8 seconds, not 80 like the OP says. It's not even enough to kill Marines. And he continues to exaggerate the power of this ability even more. - He says Protoss can never dodge EMP, which is not true. Many of the EMP shots miss their targets all the time, even in the pro-level games. Because units sometimes can move out of the way while Ghost is trying to get in range to do the shot. The ability has already been nerfed. There is no need for more. - He says more of Terran and Zerg units should die from a single storm, if not micro'ed, because currently there is not enough incentive to dodge it. Really? First of all, he doesn't even mention that Hydras die from a single storm (80HP) and are expensive units. He says it "cripples" them. That is incorrect, it actually kills them. Also, who says a single storm should kill most units. Why shouldn't there be an incentive for getting more than one HT? - Adding cast time to Fungal Growth just so Terran bio can dodge it is also a terrible idea. Terran bio with the combination of Stim Pack and Concussive shells already prevents Zerg from running away from combat. It is only fair that Fungal Growth exists that can do the same, which by the way is more expensive and micro heavy in comparison. It's not like Terran bio is melee based. Fungal Growth does not even stop them from shooting. Again, people should read and analyze a post before throwing empty praises at someone. -Banelings being killed will still let them do damage. That basically means as long as the Zerg moves the banelings into range he's guaranteed a hit. - 36 damage isn't a lot to you? That essentially leaves stimmed marines at 9 hp, allowing them to die in basically one hit from anything in the Zerg's arsenal except for a zergling. - Hydras DO NOT DIE from a single storm. All Zerg units automatically regenerate one hp as soon as they take damage. As a result, Hydras will be left with 1-2 hp at the end of storm. It doesn't kill them, it cripples them, as the OP said. Don't believe me? Test it. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On July 24 2010 05:40 Lane wrote: This proves that people on these forums only respect people based on their post count, and how big of a post they type. The OP is clearly Protoss biased, and gives bad info and suggestions. - Banelings are already vulnerable to being killed early without dealing any damage. This gets worse and worse late game. Suggesting a nerf on top of this just doesn't make any sense. - Fungal Growth does 36 damage over 8 seconds, not 80 like the OP says. It's not even enough to kill Marines. And he continues to exaggerate the power of this ability even more. - He says Protoss can never dodge EMP, which is not true. Many of the EMP shots miss their targets all the time, even in the pro-level games. Because units sometimes can move out of the way while Ghost is trying to get in range to do the shot. The ability has already been nerfed. There is no need for more. - He says more of Terran and Zerg units should die from a single storm, if not micro'ed, because currently there is not enough incentive to dodge it. Really? First of all, he doesn't even mention that Hydras die from a single storm (80HP) and are expensive units. He says it "cripples" them. That is incorrect, it actually kills them. Also, who says a single storm should kill most units. Why shouldn't there be an incentive for getting more than one HT? - Adding cast time to Fungal Growth just so Terran bio can dodge it is also a terrible idea. Terran bio with the combination of Stim Pack and Concussive shells already prevents Zerg from running away from combat. It is only fair that Fungal Growth exists that can do the same, which by the way is more expensive and micro heavy in comparison. It's not like Terran bio is melee based. Fungal Growth does not even stop them from shooting. Again, people should read and analyze a post before throwing empty praises at someone. Except you and nearly everyone else who disagrees is only arguing from a balance perspective rather than a gameplay perspective. You should also praise everyone person who makes an article, its called good manners. I would rather not have gameplay reduced to a boring war of attrition because of balancing. | ||
Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
Great article though. Articulated what I've kind of been feeling for a while. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
On July 24 2010 05:40 Lane wrote: CThis proves that people on these forums only respect people based on their post count, and how big of a post they type. The OP is clearly Protoss biased, and gives bad info and suggestions. - Banelings are already vulnerable to being killed early without dealing any damage. This gets worse and worse late game. Suggesting a nerf on top of this just doesn't make any sense. - Fungal Growth does 36 damage over 8 seconds, not 80 like the OP says. It's not even enough to kill Marines. And he continues to exaggerate the power of this ability even more. - He says Protoss can never dodge EMP, which is not true. Many of the EMP shots miss their targets all the time, even in the pro-level games. Because units sometimes can move out of the way while Ghost is trying to get in range to do the shot. The ability has already been nerfed. There is no need for more. - He says more of Terran and Zerg units should die from a single storm, if not micro'ed, because currently there is not enough incentive to dodge it. Really? First of all, he doesn't even mention that Hydras die from a single storm (80HP) and are expensive units. He says it "cripples" them. That is incorrect, it actually kills them. Also, who says a single storm should kill most units. Why shouldn't there be an incentive for getting more than one HT? - Adding cast time to Fungal Growth just so Terran bio can dodge it is also a terrible idea. Terran bio with the combination of Stim Pack and Concussive shells already prevents Zerg from running away from combat. It is only fair that Fungal Growth exists that can do the same, which by the way is more expensive and micro heavy in comparison. It's not like Terran bio is melee based. Fungal Growth does not even stop them from shooting. Again, people should read and analyze a post before throwing empty praises at someone. Calm down brother. While I am inclined to agree with you, you don't start a dinner party by insulting someone. -I have to disagree with you and agree with the OP; barring a very large ranged army, it's very difficult to kill banelings before they can get close enough. You know you will get some use out of them. -The OP's objections to FG is not the damage or duration whatsoever, it is that the lack of a cast/projectile time makes it's use less dynamic I think the rest of your comments are reasonable but could go either way. For my two cents, I find force fields not very dynamic on the Zerg end. It depends on the Protoss putting down good FF, but the Zerg is pretty much at their mercy. I haven't heard many good suggestions as to how to counter FF besides Ultras. Any thoughts on this? | ||
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Guilty
Canada812 Posts
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humanimal
United States151 Posts
On July 24 2010 05:40 Lane wrote: This proves that people on these forums only respect people based on their post count, and how big of a post they type. The OP is clearly Protoss biased, and gives bad info and suggestions. - Banelings are already vulnerable to being killed early without dealing any damage. This gets worse and worse late game. Suggesting a nerf on top of this just doesn't make any sense. - Fungal Growth does 36 damage over 8 seconds, not 80 like the OP says. It's not even enough to kill Marines. And he continues to exaggerate the power of this ability even more. - He says Protoss can never dodge EMP, which is not true. Many of the EMP shots miss their targets all the time, even in the pro-level games. Because units sometimes can move out of the way while Ghost is trying to get in range to do the shot. The ability has already been nerfed. There is no need for more. - He says more of Terran and Zerg units should die from a single storm, if not micro'ed, because currently there is not enough incentive to dodge it. Really? First of all, he doesn't even mention that Hydras die from a single storm (80HP) and are expensive units. He says it "cripples" them. That is incorrect, it actually kills them. Also, who says a single storm should kill most units. Why shouldn't there be an incentive for getting more than one HT? - Adding cast time to Fungal Growth just so Terran bio can dodge it is also a terrible idea. Terran bio with the combination of Stim Pack and Concussive shells already prevents Zerg from running away from combat. It is only fair that Fungal Growth exists that can do the same, which by the way is more expensive and micro heavy in comparison. It's not like Terran bio is melee based. Fungal Growth does not even stop them from shooting. Again, people should read and analyze a post before throwing empty praises at someone. Okay first, the respect/posts part is not true. They do get priority but most of the respect is due to a long history of quality posts that got them to that number. I, myself do not have many posts (spent most of my time on TL without an account, just reading stuff) so I'll leave this up to others (reading the 10 commandments explains the idea behind the many posts → respect, check it out sometime). The EMP dodging is referring to after the EMP has been launched. Sure the units can dodge before the ghost gets in range, but that isn't really dodging then because the shot hasn't been fired. The Terran player could just as easily cancel the EMP and aim it again. The problem is that if the ghost is commanded to shoot while in range, there's a little to no chance that you can dodge it. As for storm, Plexa is not saying that it should be stronger. He's saying that it should be a situation where a gamer has to make the on-the-spot decision of "should I stay knowing that I can do more now, or should I run knowing that I'll survive and be able to do more later" Same with the Fungal Growth. I'm not trying to argue balance here, and neither is the OP. His suggestions weren't meant to be isolated and you're treating them as such. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of readers read this in context of adding competitive play, excitement for watching, as well as more power to the gamer. Try rereading the post with a different attitude before you disregard everything and write a rebuttal. Sure the post isn't perfect in writing (though IMO it's pretty darn good), but what a lot of people who disagree are missing is that the purpose for this being written is to introduce the "wow" factor that made SC:BW so much fun to play and watch. Sorry if I came off as a bit rude; I tried my best to be critical but honest. | ||
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lasershark
United States49 Posts
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RodrigoX
United States645 Posts
I love the things you point out here and I think this will be a great, great addition to the game. But I do hope that blizzard doesnt think we are doing their job. I hope they think of it as, they might this mondo amazing game that is far better than anything they ever put out, but some of the lacks of technology in BW forced these moments that made the game great, and they should allow some of those things back in not for the sake of nostalgia but for the sake of pure longevity. | ||
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Medzo
United States627 Posts
First off, the Infestor is an example of a unit with amazing “wow” potential. Neural Parasite, as it stands, is a “wow” moment spell – it makes the infestor a prime target in battle and whomever has the most skill will be able to get the best of that situation. That’s excellent! However, fungal growth is not “wow” material in it’s current form. The reason is because it is cast instantly, and for this reason there isn’t anything the Terran can do except take the damage. To turn the Funal Growth into a “wow” spell simply add a cast time to the spell. Give it a nice animation and viola! You have a “wow” moment. I disagree about fungal growth. I think players are just too use to grouping their entire army into 1 group and then of course fungal growth is extremely deadly because everything is bunched up. If a terran player is better at spreading his army out then fungal growth loses its potential. This is at the cost of better and harder army control. Also I think that a lot of BW players are too quick to write off micro in SC2. As you start to play a lot of games you will pick up on more things that can really set you above the rest. Here is another fungal growth example. If you fungal growth zealots you can back up out of range with roaches or hydras and fight the zealots without taking any damage, as opposed to just using fungal growth for damage or preventing retreat. This adds dynamics to both sides because again a skilled protoss should avoid bunching up his zealots and should place high priority in blink/sniping or using feedback on infestors so that his zealots are not totally useless. Another trick I like to use is casting fungal growth on units that are in the back of the army and out of range of doing damage. A skilled player will retreat to protect his other units and maximize his armys potential, yet a lot of players will not notice until its too late or will protect their units but give the zerg an opportunity to take advantage of a sitting army. There are plenty of other things. For example if you spread your army out to create a wider more rectangular group and then move to a far distance your army will stay spread and converge less allowing you to conclave your opponent. Also different units converge to their destination differently. For example banelings group up very poorly and they are more effective if they are not bunched up because enemy units will try to surround them. If you have a group of only 2 units they will not converge. A lot of players move around with 1 group and take significant damage or penalties from having a large ball and wont ever realize that it is severely detrimental to the outcome of a battle. Also its kind of a no brainer but you should always focus armored units with units that do bonus damage to armored and so forth while also avoiding letting your opponent get bonus damage. Yet most players won't do this or don't quite see the difference it makes until they have about 400 games under their belt and can really see what is going on in battles. | ||
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the.bishOp
25 Posts
On July 24 2010 05:59 humanimal wrote: Okay first, the respect/posts part is not true. They do get priority but most of the respect is due to a long history of quality posts that got them to that number. I, myself do not have many posts (spent most of my time on TL without an account, just reading stuff) so I'll leave this up to others (reading the 10 commandments explains the idea behind the many posts → respect, check it out sometime). The EMP dodging is referring to after the EMP has been launched. Sure the units can dodge before the ghost gets in range, but that isn't really dodging then because the shot hasn't been fired. The Terran player could just as easily cancel the EMP and aim it again. The problem is that if the ghost is commanded to shoot while in range, there's a little to no chance that you can dodge it. As for storm, Plexa is not saying that it should be stronger. He's saying that it should be a situation where a gamer has to make the on-the-spot decision of "should I stay knowing that I can do more now, or should I run knowing that I'll survive and be able to do more later" Same with the Fungal Growth. I'm not trying to argue balance here, and neither is the OP. His suggestions weren't meant to be isolated and you're treating them as such. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of readers read this in context of adding competitive play, excitement for watching, as well as more power to the gamer. Try rereading the post with a different attitude before you disregard everything and write a rebuttal. Sure the post isn't perfect in writing (though IMO it's pretty darn good), but what a lot of people who disagree are missing is that the purpose for this being written is to introduce the "wow" factor that made SC:BW so much fun to play and watch. Sorry if I came off as a bit rude; I tried my best to be critical but honest. Doesn't matter if balance is not the issue. By trying to put on "wow" artificially like that you throw off balance anyway. All the changes combined are so heavily toss-friendly that anyone who agrees 100% with the post must be joking. And it doesn't help any "wow" factor introducing harder to hit spells. There are a LOT of underused units in the game as is and the units that are used often are not used that well. The game is not as clunky and is a lot smarter than BW. Units FEEL more fragile and the game FEELS faster. A lot of actions spent in BW can now be used elsewhere in SC2. Micro is a lot more delicate because of scale too. And I have seen a lot of really really impressive SC2. Just saw one last night on Day9. Great use of a wide range of units (some of wich are considered bad by some users) and with LOTS of room for improvements from both sides (we all know what game that was right?). | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
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lac29
United States1485 Posts
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Orpheus
United States35 Posts
One thought about balancing storm to create these so-called "wow" moments - perhaps storm (and feedback) can do different damage to different types of unilts, making them more effective to certain units while less effective to others. I'm talking about a simple 25% increase or decrease, so that it doesn't necessarily create super hard counters. For example, storm can deal normal damage to bionic units, more damage to mechanical units (you know, storm->electricity->breaks mechanical units), and less damage to psionic units (hence PSIONIC storm). Just an idea to throw around, I haven't given it too much thought. | ||
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