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On July 24 2010 02:01 OHtRUe wrote:
you cant say that the void ray is a hard unit to master AT ALL. There may be some tricks you can use with them, but there not micro intensive and they dont require any brain power whats so ever. Look at muta's for the PERFECT UNIT that recquires micro without being an aoe damage dealing unit.
Well why do you say that they are not micro intensive? I would say that their relative short range, togather with their cost and how little damage they can take makes them hard to micro. At the same time you need to tend to them to make them do enough damage and not die, all the while you still have to keep an eye on your macro. Its not like 10 marines that you a-click while you can flick back to your base and build supply and some scvs while the fight is under way.
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These are all great observations and ideas -- really dead on. I love the suggestions for EMP that require travel time and give the protoss options (dodge, don't clump casters, make forcefield resist the emp). Also great suggestions for banelings and fungal growth, too.
The voidray is the perfect example to use, and good analysis of that unit's potential.
This writeup showed a lot of thought, and it was refreshing to finally read some constructive SC2 criticism based around a unified design philosophy, rather than knee-jerk reaction from pouty players post-defeat.
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totally agreed, especially at psi storm, it definitely needs to do more damage over time, maybe at a slower rate
also, emp missile and fungal growth cast timing are good ideas. maybe make fungal growth actually grow out some slimy stuff on an area and when units are standing there after it completes (lets say 2-3 seconds) fungal growth takes effect. maybe increase radius or something
also what i think would make void ray battles vs terran even more entertaining is if vikings had even more range or would be a little faster so they can hit/run rays more effectively.
and maybe something could be done to reapers d4 charge to make them more effective mid game. maybe make it into something like a spider mine or something similar, like let them be planted anywhere and go off after 5-10 seconds
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Agree with the whole article, but its not the first time these points have been brought up and it seems Blizzard have yet to hear (care?).
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On July 24 2010 02:11 ZlaSHeR wrote:
Congrats on 20k, but I can't agree with almost all of your PvT ideas, since they vastly favor protoss. Those changes would not only screw up every section of the ladder but would just make engaging completely useless for terran. My mind can't comprehend how you think that it is fair that a charged voidray can kill 8 marines with ease. 400 minerals worth is destroyed by some 200/150 unit, that can be chronoboosted, flys, and cna just hit and run on mineral lines on almost every mpa, never losing any hp due to being faster than the marines.
Your ideas would make it so void rays have NO counter, and that using a cheap ass skill that already does so much against terran bio armies (terran has virtually no melee units, so guardian shield IS effective and doesn't need change). Playing TvP would be just as worthless as it was in the first 5 patches.
I wonder if there is a terran AA unit that flies faster, deals more damage, has more range, is cheaper, can go into ground mode for quicker harass than a void ray, and requires roughly the same tech...
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Another possible tweak to banelings would be making them do friendly fire. Imagine a single baneling getting sniped taking out a line of banelings in domino effect, eventually leading into hurting the zerg army.
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so true. We NEED more WOW moments!
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I'd like to see uncharged phasing kept and charged phasing removed, for reasons mostly already listed: it adds some decision making, and charged fazing seems dangerously powerful, while you need a silly number of uncharged VRs for fazing to be game breaking.
Also I don't claim that the current state of things is imbalanced, but if you want to soften the power of EMP against protoss, I think a good way to do it would be to make the guardian shield block part (probably 25-50%) of its damage, either innately or as an upgrade. It's a simple adjustment that keeps most of the existing dynamic intact, but gives protoss a method of mitigation while adding some decision making on the part of the terran: EMP through the shield? try and snipe the sentry first? EMP outside the shield? It would depend a lot on the given situation.
Liquipedia II says EMP and GS are both 75 energy, while people in this topic have said it's 100. one of the two has their facts wrong.
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Awesome article. You forgot about two units though:
- Zergling
TLO's speedling usage has convinced me of this... even though these aren't as strong as in BW as a combat unit and DPS dealer, they are amazingly fast and when used correctly they can destroy a mineral line through sheer speed and numbers.
It is the fact that they are "weak" units that gives them the WOW factor when they are used effectively
- Hellion
This killing machine deals SO MUCH DAMAGE to the right units it is amazing. Sure it has no spider mines, sure it doesn't attack as fast and is not nearly as maneuverable as its old cousin. But it shouldn't be thought of as a vulture, the Hellion is a Vulture + Lurker. It is fast enough to do runbies, it destroys mineral lines if positionned correctly. In battle, it acts as an anti-antiarmor meatshield and anti-light DPS.
Of special note is the Hellion+Tank+Marauder vs Hydra+Roach+Speedling+Creep interaction. This interaction requires enormous skill, and is amazing to watch =D
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I'm sure he could have covered many more units and abilities as well, but I think he chose to pick a few on purpose. <_>
In any case, I loved this article and I agree with it. Some little changes that seem negligible on the casual side will come a long way for professional gaming.. "wow" gaming. Blizzard, you reading this?
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I had this rly long post about how the VR attack is intentionally frontloaded, but my browser crashed and I lost it....but yea, would be easy to fix if blizz didn't want to keep it this way.
VR fazing: working as intended
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I don't think the void ray is the only unit. I also think that with better control there is going to be some impressive hellion micro in the future. Controlling multiple hellions, positioning them individually so that their thin AoE attack does the most possible damage.
I also think that there's some form of micro possible with mutalisks that we haven't even figured out yet. Not like brood war's muta micro, but I think there's something else that can be done with them, just by the kind of strange way they control.
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Well written. That guardian shield blocking EMP is a really good idea. As are a lot of other of your ideas that would make for more interesting games.
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So is the VR the SC2 answer to Reaver Harass?
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I definitely agree with the points of this article. Good micro needs to be rewarded and I think that's what people have yet to see in SC2 as much. I really hope more cool tricks are found for each race and battles become a lot more micro heavy. Your small idea about EMP being disabled with a guardian shield is really interesting. I would love to see something like that. Might make sentries to strong though...
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Guardian Shield blocking EMPs seems so... utterly brilliant.
If the EMPs land first, then the Sentries don't have the energy to cast Guardian Shield, but if the Guardian Shield activates first, the EMP is wasted. Or the Terran could wait and kill off the Sentries before shooting the EMPs, but then the Protoss army has more time to deal damage.
And it would give Protoss incentive to use Guardian Shield rather than Force Field.
I wish this happened. I really, really wish it did.
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On July 24 2010 02:57 MangoTango wrote:
So is the VR the SC2 answer to Reaver Harass?
I think it's more like muta harass for protoss, of course not nearly as powerful. If you want a reaver harass style thing in SC2, I've seen warp prism/colossus usage that can be pretty awesome.
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Awesome awesome awesome writeup! 
Congrats for the 20k and Keep'em comming!!!
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Make the Protoss choose between Guardian Shield and Force Fields. They cannot just spam Guardian Shields now. If they don't, then Terran will have free EMPs go off. If they do, they're going to have to use Force Fields more effectively, instead of spamming them halfway in an enemies' army.
Maybe if Banelings had the same mechanic Spider Mines had, it would make for more interesting positional plays. If they are burrowed and someone walks over them, they unburrow and explode, but with much less damage. If you walk them, they do slightly less damage then they do now.
A lot of games fall under the repetition category. Where all you have to do is move your army to attack. There's no skill involved. The Colossi replaced the Reaver, but the Reaver took a lot more skill to use. To shoot Scarabs in the right direction. Same with Vultures and Spider Mines. Spider Mines in correct positions could decimate a force, and it would be up to the player to use them well. Hellions do none of that. They just run around shooting, like any other unit. Neural Parasite and Fungal Growth aren't skill moves, they're just special attacks that are somewhat overpowered.
Like he said, they are moves that have no counter. There is no skill divide between players using the moves. Any player can summon an Infestor or a Ghost and use Fungal Growth or EMP well on a better player. It is the better player that should be able to counter the move. Spreading out units is not a counter. It's a general strategy.
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The void ray definitely just feels wrong for me at this point. I can't really get into the current unit, as it just doesn't seem to fit in the current game set like the other units.
EDIT: accidentally posted prematurely
My current suggestion for the void ray is that if the unit/structure that it is attacking dies, it loses its charge. This would allow for a ton of micro possibilities (putting units in the red with a charged void ray(s) while your designated uncharged void ray finishes them off). It also fits the lore of the void ray fairly well, and maintains it as a great base destruction unit. It may need buffed elsewhere to compensate, but I think it would add a lot more uniqueness and take away that lackluster feeling the void ray has.
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EPT
