I read a few stories recently told around Korean communities about how Savior claims that he has never participated in or suggested match fixing. The story went about how Savior claimed he never participated in match fixing himself, because when he was approached by a broker, he thought about it, discussed it with another player, and the player went ahead and fixed matches. I thought they were delusional tales, but, here's some official statements from the courts.
Progamer Ma: "I've never suggested or coerced match fixing"
Progamer Ma, who has been connected with the Starcraft matchfixing scandal has denied a part of the charges.
Investigators in Seoul began the first trial on the 4th, 11 AM, regarding Starcraft matchfixing.
Ma, after investigators released their reports, in his defense, claimed that "While I admit to most of the charges, I've never coerced or suggested match fixing to Progamer Jin"
Continuing, Ma said regarding Progamer Kim under the AirForce, that "it is true that I suggested match fixing to him in the beginning, but I don't remember suggesting match fixing to him later on and getting refused."
Furthermore, Ma added that "I have never participated in match fixing or betting myself, and I don't know of any [gambling] sites."
On the other hand, Won, speaking through a lawyer, accepted all charges from the prosecution and admitted that all of the collected evidence were correct.
Because Ma has denied a part of the charges against him, it became even more likely that Progamer Jin, who is on minor charges, will show up as a witness.
In the meanwhile Ma came to court with a cast and crutches as if he had gotten a knee surgery. Furthermore, during the process where courts check the address, occupation, etc of the accused, while Won answered "currently unemployed", Ma attracted attention by answering "Progamer".
Few more specific information regarding the trials.
- Broker Park was charged with Fraud, Blackmail, Bribery, Willingness to Bribe - Progamer Won has been charged with Fraud, Bribery, Willingness to give Bribes, Obstruction for Business, Inveterate Gambling, Accepting and Giving Bribes for Occupational duty (T/N: ie: I accept money and I do you a favor, except it relates to my occupation. So it probably involves throwing/paying others to throw games), etc, for 8 total charges - Progamer Ma has been charged with Fraud, Bribery, Willingness to give Bribes, Obstruction of Business, Giving Bribes for Occupational duty, etc. - Progamer Ma has accepted most charges, but said "I admit to handing money to Progamer Jin, but I never suggested or coerced him to throw the match"
hoo dear savior. you better show up clean after making a statement like this. if not, you're done for life.
edit: wait. what the.
Ma, after investigators released their reports, in his defense, claimed that "While I admit to most of the charges, I've never coerced or suggested match fixing to Progamer Jin"
I have no clue what this sentence is trying to say. which charges is he admitting to, then, if not the match-fixing or the coercement of match-fixing.
and he said he offered presumably darkelf to rig matches early on, but didn't later? what difference does that make...? i'm so lost.
On June 04 2010 14:35 Milkis wrote: Furthermore, during the process where courts check the address, occupation, etc of the accused, while Won answered "currently unemployed", Ma attracted attention by answering "Progamer". k.
Ma, after investigators released their reports, in his defense, claimed that "While I admit to most of the charges, I've never coerced or suggested match fixing to Progamer Jin"
I have no clue what this sentence is trying to say. which charges is he admitting to, then, if not the match-fixing or the coercement of match-fixing.
and he said he offered presumably darkelf to rig matches early on, but didn't later? what difference does that make...? i'm so lost.
It's actually not clear. But he's saying three things.
- Never suggsted match fixing to Hwasin - "doesn't remember" suggesting match fixing to DarkElf "later on". He accepted that he did suggest match fixing to DarkElf "earlier on". - Never participated in match fixing sites himself.
Those are the specific three charges that are being denied, what he's actually being indicted of, we don't know.
On June 04 2010 14:46 KingofHearts wrote: savior is trying to lie his way out. not gonna work. everyone knows he is involved. he should have shown some remorse.
If hes gonna go out, might as well go out in the worst way possible ...
i wonder what justin is going to do for employment. i sure hope he has skills better than playing starcraft otherwise he's going to be on the dole for a looooong time
On June 04 2010 14:56 JohnColtrane wrote: i wonder what justin is going to do for employment. i sure hope he has skills better than playing starcraft otherwise he's going to be on the dole for a looooong time
...but of course Combat-EX decided to make an apology video, which HAD to be one of the worst apologies ever given... maybe? Probably the worst, because it's just a way of ordering things, as a way of going "hey, you know I know there's a lot of tension going on, but I did the wrong thing." You gotta wrap up by saying that. Combat-EX, on the other hand, began by saying "hey, I MAY have done the wrong thing, I MAY have transgressed...but let me start off by saying how wrong TeamLiquid is", which was a big no-no...
At the risk of creating false narratives, I'm getting this mental image of savior smug and defiantly brushing this all off :D Sitting there with his rolex and expensive clothes, "Don't you know who I am? Im the Goddam Bonjwa"
On June 04 2010 15:41 BreakerD wrote: I think what savior is trying to say is that he is guilty of conspiracy but he never threw away any games..........
I never thought I would be disagreeing with three pages of posters only to agree with someone with 26 posts.
I also think this is the case.
How do you all claim to know so much about something that happened so far away and on which most of our information comes from nothing but a rumor mill?
I do not believe that Savior is lying if he has the courage to proclaim that he is innocent in a court of law. A while back, Coach Cho said that Savior was innocent, and noted that Savior got on his knees to plead and confess that it was not him. I doubt someone with a long-term knee condition, who was about to get surgery would do something so drastic unless he was telling the truth.
Why else would Savior proclaim that he is still a "pro-gamer"? It doesn't add up.
As for the expensive clothing that he buys, doesn't Savior have a salary over 100k USD a year? I'm sure he would be able to afford those things without having to bet on himself in proleague matches.
Unfortunately i think the damage is already done for Savior. Its like when a person is accused of being a pedo, even if they're innocent people can't get the image out of their head. Obviously to a much lesser degree, but Savior will have suspicion follow him wherever he goes, even if he is able to continue gaming for whatever reason.
On June 04 2010 16:05 Shengster wrote: I do not believe that Savior is lying if he has the courage to proclaim that he is innocent in a court of law. A while back, Coach Cho said that Savior was innocent, and noted that Savior got on his knees to plead and confess that it was not him. I doubt someone with a long-term knee condition, who was about to get surgery would do something so drastic unless he was telling the truth.
Why else would Savior proclaim that he is still a "pro-gamer"? It doesn't add up.
As for the expensive clothing that he buys, doesn't Savior have a salary over 100k USD a year? I'm sure he would be able to afford those things without having to bet on himself in proleague matches.
On June 04 2010 16:05 Shengster wrote: I do not believe that Savior is lying if he has the courage to proclaim that he is innocent in a court of law. A while back, Coach Cho said that Savior was innocent, and noted that Savior got on his knees to plead and confess that it was not him. I doubt someone with a long-term knee condition, who was about to get surgery would do something so drastic unless he was telling the truth.
Why else would Savior proclaim that he is still a "pro-gamer"? It doesn't add up.
As for the expensive clothing that he buys, doesn't Savior have a salary over 100k USD a year? I'm sure he would be able to afford those things without having to bet on himself in proleague matches.
Yeah this is just denial at its most extreme form man. Begging on his knees too big of a deal? Please, this is his entire future and legacy he's pleading for a wussy knee problem wouldn't stop him from trying to save his life (not literally).
I don't believe he's innocent and wish he would just come out with an apology like Hwasin. This is just shitting on his legacy even more.
I added in source from another article, it had the charges in them, but it also had some contradicting info about what Savior said -- either Savior contradicted himself or the articles are a bit off.
Are you allowed to be an audience in a Korean court?
In Canada your allowed to be an audience of a Provincial court hearing (to some extent). Is this being tried at a 2nd instance court like Supreme, or is it a minor offence (to match-fix).
If so, please do attend one of these court hearings I'm very well interested to hear the things they are taking as evidence, who are the witnesses etc. I want to be able to analyze this from a criminological aspect.
based on my reading of the article (granted at 4 am), it seems that the situation is that, while savior himself did throw matches, he did not actually attempt to spread the idea to others (with one exception to darkelf with whom he only speculated with and dark elf rejected him? this was kinda fuzzy) furthermore, i would assume that by 'had no knowledge of the gaming sites' would mean that he was not actually operating as a mastermind of the outfit but probably approached by a middleman instead (and therefore could know absolutely nothing about the larger organization itself except that it exists). Naturally, i could be completely wrong, but thats my 2 cents.
- (T)Hwasin admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld. - (Z)sAviOr forced to retire by KeSPA, CJ releases him. - (Z)YellOw[ArnC] admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)Luxury retires. KT terminates his contract. - (T)UpMaGiC admits his crime and apologizes. - (T)go.go admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)type-b admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld
Look at this list. Other progamers already admitted their crime. And isn't Savior the one suggesting match fixing to these players. It is very unlikely that Savior never took part in a fixed match himself.
Ugh I don't see this ending well for savior either way. The article is very vague like Hoon said, and a lot of the quotes don't even seem to make sense.
What about other progamers like Hwasin? Is it their offence is minor thus no need attend court? Or it is at later date?
I'm kinda worry about Savior...I think it is really jail already. Now I'm kinda curious how long in jail.? And after jail is he outcast @ Progaming realm? What happens to him after jail? Ah...so many question...
On June 04 2010 18:03 XiaoJoyce- wrote: What about other progamers like Hwasin? Is it their offence is minor thus no need attend court? Or it is at later date?
I'm kinda worry about Savior...I think it is really jail already. Now I'm kinda curious how long in jail.? And after jail is he outcast @ Progaming realm? What happens to him after jail? Ah...so many question...
Sounds like the ones that did nothing other than accept a bribe one or two times were not prosecuted to stand trial, but the ones who were supposedly involved with bribing/bringing other players into the cheating fold like sAviOr and Justin (along with the other non-progamer parties) were taken to the cleaners. Standard procedure to get the lesser offenders to testify to get those higher up on the ladder.
When the delusion finally breaks and the reality sets in, this is going to end very, very badly for Savior. For a guy who gave me so many enjoyable moments and good memories, I just hope he gets his life back together sooner rather than later, but stuff like this just makes it seem like it's closer to later or not at all =(
At this point it sounds like he's just contesting arbitrary technicalities here and there, given that he's already admitting to some of the crimes. It's not like he gets to be a progamer again no matter as long as he's guilty of even a single charge. Ugh, this is just going to get uglier and uglier.
Actually his statement about not fixing matches does make some sense. His slump after his losses to Bisu and firebathero make perfect sense even considering that they were honest games.
On June 04 2010 15:12 wishbones wrote: hm i wonder if they catch enough pro's can there be a progaming prison team. :o
Hahaha, good one. That'd be pretty awesome. And looking at the guys getting caught, it wouldn't be a horrible team, and they'd have all the time in the world to practice!
On June 04 2010 14:57 Zalfor wrote: if savior gets through with this bluff, he should just play poker instead.
lol so true. That made me smile.
Absolutely. Man, savior better be telling the truth. Or I would be more heartbroken than ever
Aha nah man give it up. Savior is fabricating his story now >< he is learning from oj simpson cept saviors story isn't adding up and is getting tweaked in two diff references :p he's screwed
On June 04 2010 15:22 ironchef wrote: That's classic, Occupation "Progamer."
At the risk of creating false narratives, I'm getting this mental image of savior smug and defiantly brushing this all off :D Sitting there with his rolex and expensive clothes, "Don't you know who I am? Im the Goddam Bonjwa"
That's probably how he pictures himself right now, and it's not going to end well. Everyone that counts in progaming has dropped him so courtroom posturing won't save him. I hope he's aware of that and has just decided to go out with a bang. Either that or he's telling the truth, though I doubt it.
At this point it sounds like he's just contesting arbitrary technicalities here and there, given that he's already admitting to some of the crimes.
Contesting 'arbitrary' technicalities is what keeps you out of prison... I am sure he can afford a very good lawyer and is following his advice very soundly.
Progamer Ma: "I've never suggested or coerced match fixing"
Ma, after investigators released their reports, in his defense, claimed that "While I admit to most of the charges, I've never coerced or suggested match fixing to Progamer Jin"
Continuing, Ma said regarding Progamer Kim under the AirForce, that "it is true that I suggested match fixing to him in the beginning, but I don't remember suggesting match fixing to him later on and getting refused."
Furthermore, Ma added that "I have never participated in match fixing or betting myself, and I don't know of any [gambling] sites."
Source: http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=107435&db=issue --- - Progamer Ma has accepted most charges, but said "I admit to betting on Progamer Jin, but I never suggested or coerced him to throw the match" (T/N: Yes, the two articles are a bit contradicting)
did he got his kneecaps smashed by the bookie?... VERY strage situation this whole thing
ANd plz, DONT say hes like Pete Rose, i am from germany, and even i knwo that Pete Rose never FIXED games, he jsut bet on himself afaik, WHOLE different story
On June 04 2010 20:24 RaGe wrote: Maybe sAviOr is trying to say he bet against himself, but never accepted a bribe to throw a game?
That would certainly add a whole other dimension to what Coach Cho said about every starleague finals being a 'struggle of a progamer against himself'.
On June 04 2010 20:24 RaGe wrote: Maybe sAviOr is trying to say he bet against himself, but never accepted a bribe to throw a game?
Yeah this seems like the explanation that makes the most sense, he was aware of the match fixing going on and probably introduced some progamers to people, but then went and realise that he could make a lot more money with a lot less hassle by just bribing himself.
On June 04 2010 16:05 Shengster wrote: I do not believe that Savior is lying if he has the courage to proclaim that he is innocent in a court of law. A while back, Coach Cho said that Savior was innocent, and noted that Savior got on his knees to plead and confess that it was not him. I doubt someone with a long-term knee condition, who was about to get surgery would do something so drastic unless he was telling the truth.
Why else would Savior proclaim that he is still a "pro-gamer"? It doesn't add up.
As for the expensive clothing that he buys, doesn't Savior have a salary over 100k USD a year? I'm sure he would be able to afford those things without having to bet on himself in proleague matches.
On June 04 2010 17:21 LunarDestiny wrote: Man Savior, just admit your crime.
- (T)Hwasin admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld. - (Z)sAviOr forced to retire by KeSPA, CJ releases him. - (Z)YellOw[ArnC] admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)Luxury retires. KT terminates his contract. - (T)UpMaGiC admits his crime and apologizes. - (T)go.go admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)type-b admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld
Look at this list. Other progamers already admitted their crime. And isn't Savior the one suggesting match fixing to these players. It is very unlikely that Savior never took part in a fixed match himself.
Why does that matter? They all admitted after they got caught. Fuck them.
i'm not sure this is an unintelligent strategy by savior. probably he and his lawyers went through the charges and determined which ones the prosecution or whatever would have an evidentiary basis for, and denied the rest.
A: This is a classic strategy employed by many lawyers. Let me take you through the steps.
1. Lawyer tells MJY to announce his occupation as Progamer. This is to suggest that MJY is clean and expects to leave the trial clean - meaning found not guilty. If you were a real progamer falsely accused of match-fixing, would you not expect yourself to go back to work after all the drama clears up? So why not imitate what a really innocent player would do in the situation. It goes to confuse people, because they don't know what to think. Confusion = Not Guilty (Don't expect MJY to comeback as a pro-gamer if he actually does come out unscathed after this trail.)
2. MJY come in with a busted knee and crutches. What a poor guy - all injured and what now, and now the law is forcefully placing a giant strain on this poor soul. This tactic obviously makes you feel pity for this pro-gamer. I mean, why not fake wrist surgery? Why does MJY's surgery coincide with Hwasin's "family troubles" and UpMagics leave as well? This tactic is the equivalent of dressing the accused as the penitent convert, it takes away the image of a criminal.
3. Talk about a preemptive attack. MJY admits to only some of the charges. This will tempt the attorney to settle the case on these minor charges for the most he can get out of them. Otherwise, if he fails on the bigger issue, nothing will come as a result in the way of punishment on the smaller issue. So, as the attorney puts together a case, he already knows that if he or she feels they cannot win, they will try to settle. (Additionally, this also counteracts any possible case that MJY despite having so much of the investigation point to him, can be completely innocent. It is like saying, "Yeah you are right, what I did was bad, but it wasn't that bad, and a lot of what you said isn't true.")
4. Confusing, seemingly contradictory statements. Nothing works better to confuse public opinion and the court then to muddle up what the defendant's case actually is. If I were to tell you of a man who was being charged with money embezzlement and coercion or advice to others to do the same, would this next statement make any sense as a case? "My client accepts most of the charges, but has never embezzled money himself. He has never coerced or advised anyone else to do the same. He advised a friend to embezzle money once, but subsequently has never tried to do so. That is why my client only accepts part of the charges against him." The statement makes you unsure about what charges exactly he is admitting to, and whether the client may have also "embezzled money a little bit early on, but never again after that." It says nothing about it so it just becomes more confusing and more gray.
Congratulations MJY. I'm glad to know you and your high priced lawyer weren't just throwing away your time during your knee surgery and subsequent time off to rest.
On June 04 2010 17:21 LunarDestiny wrote: Man Savior, just admit your crime.
- (T)Hwasin admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld. - (Z)sAviOr forced to retire by KeSPA, CJ releases him. - (Z)YellOw[ArnC] admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)Luxury retires. KT terminates his contract. - (T)UpMaGiC admits his crime and apologizes. - (T)go.go admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)type-b admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld
Look at this list. Other progamers already admitted their crime. And isn't Savior the one suggesting match fixing to these players. It is very unlikely that Savior never took part in a fixed match himself.
Why does that matter? They all admitted after they got caught. Fuck them.
Apologising is not enough for some of their cases, I agree.
But suppose you're a progamer who's involved in illegal match-fixing, make quite a few grand off it. Would you suddenly come out into the open and yell to the world, "I FIXED MY MATCHES"?
Use some logic.
If savior was some pawn in another's games and is true to his words in this case, I am willing to forgive him, somewhat. He still owes me an apology though, and had better destroy everyone starting 2011.
I really don't mind Savior saying this is right and this is wrong about the alleged charges... it's his decisions and he will receive the consequences. However, I find it hard to believe he actually had a knee surgery and he's on crutches and whatever. That to me seems like total bull and a very poorly staged pity-drama he's trying to put on.
Is the OP really that hard to understand? He's saying that he introduced some people but didn't fix his own matches. Obviously their going to rip him a new one even if he didn't fix his own matches.
It's nice to know that everyone here is so informed as to ALL the circumstances assuming his guilt. I'd say that generally, I have trouble knowing because all the stuff is translated, sparse, and sometimes "conflicting". But thanks to you guys, I'm absolutely certain that he is guilty of everything. I'd be denying shit too. Make those fuckers prove it. Also- I don't know shit about what went on.
The reason we don't see pictures is because Korea is supposed to keep the official names and pictures disassociated with charges until guilt is proven in a court of law. Unlike the US, where your name and face can be dragged through the mud with a multitude of untrue charges, for 3 years, even if you're innocent. Obviously, the media there is trying to walk the line as close as it can.
On June 05 2010 03:04 cursor wrote: It's nice to know that everyone here is so informed as to ALL the circumstances assuming his guilt. I'd say that generally, I have trouble knowing because all the stuff is translated, sparse, and sometimes "conflicting". But thanks to you guys, I'm absolutely certain that he is guilty of everything. I'd be denying shit too. Make those fuckers prove it. Also- I don't know shit about what went on.
The reason we don't see pictures is because Korea is supposed to keep the official names and pictures disassociated with charges until guilt is proven in a court of law. Unlike the US, where your name and face can be dragged through the mud with a multitude of untrue charges, for 3 years, even if you're innocent. Obviously, the media there is trying to walk the line as close as it can.
Hi guys, you know match fixing in pro BW has been going on for years. No suprise to me. So why now with the scandals? Blizzard are wanting to promote SC2. BW is a great userbase for SC2 sales, but it's also a stumbling block for conservatives that want to stay BW ( me included! ) . This is the 1st in a series of scandals that'll be hitting pro-BW over the next year or so. The idea of course is to diminish the credibilty of BW wrt to korean media and thus all BW media. Character assasination. After reducing the pro-BW korean to a mess with scandals and other tricks, blizzard will step in with refurb grants on the condition that they all shift to SC2. Bastards. Nothing we can do. Even a 100% unified TL member embargo on SC2 would not discourage blizzard from this course of action. The BW community is going to be forcably converted to SC2.
Scene: Mike Morhaime's office, a darkened room covered in Blizzard memorabilia. Mike Morhaime sits behind his desk, stroking a cat.
Dustin Browder enters the room, and silently kneels before him.
Dustin: What is thy bidding, my master?
Morhaime: There is a great disturbance in the fanbase.
Dustin: I have felt it, my master.
Morhaime: Many of the e-sports fans are not switching over to SC2. They believe the Korean BroodWar leagues are more competitive and...fun to watch. (Morhaime sneers)
Dustin: But Kespa is just a small organization. Boxer can no longer help them...
Morhaime: They could severely lessen our sales. Already, they have succeeded in getting SC2 rated Adults Only in Korea. If they continue to oppose us, the damage would be great.
Dustin: But...if Kespa could be turned, they would be a powerful ally...
Morhaime: Yes...yes...but can it be done? We have negotiated with them for three years, and still they refuse to bow to our whims.
Dustin: If they cannot be turned...they will be destroyed.
Morhaime: Yes...but how? Our greatest legal and parapsychological pressure has been ineffective against them.
Dustin: Through Blizzard Korea and my contacts in the Illuminati, I have acquired certain information concerning the Korean progamers and proteams. Information about match-fixing scandals, involving the top echelon of players in Korea...including sAviOr himself.
Morhaime: Excellent! This information that could severely damage Kespa. I will travel to Korea immediately, and begin spreading this information among the Korean e-sports media. Kespa will be utterly destroyed!
Dustin: But what if they survive?
Morhaime: Do not worry, my servant. Through my contacts in the International Jesuit Conspiracy, I have acquired even more damaging information than this. If they will not bow to us, then they will find themselves shaken by scandal after scandal, until nothing at all remains of them but dust and ashes. And then, once Kespa is gone, we will step in, and take over all of e-sports. Starcraft 2's ascendancy will be assured!
Dustin: But what if some of the fans discover what we're doing? What if they connect us to the scandal?
Morhaime: That is unlikely. But even if they do, even if all of the foreign e-sports fans rebel against us...Kespa will fall, and there is nothing they can do to stop us. Mwa ha ha ha ha! (Morhaime subsides into maniacal laughter)
Dustin: So be it, my master.
Dustin rises to his feet, and exits the office.
Mike Morhaime stands up slowly, and whispers an incantation over his cat. The cat transforms into a massive wing-ed HELLBEAST, which Morhaime leaps upon and rides off in the direction of Korea, cackling madly.
Was this about what you had in mind?
this is all part of blizzard's dirty plot to get rid of bw to make way for sc2. they are creating false evidence to take out savior
On June 04 2010 17:07 Mastermind wrote: I am so glad this has shut up all the savior fanboys who use to think he could have a come back.
NOPE. since he won't be paid to lose anymore, he will now have no choice but to rape everyone again. he was rumored to be the #1 in iccup, and his teammates said he still played well in practice compared to his terrible televised games, so you could say he still could have been dominating like he used to even throughout 2008-2010. wasn't his last televised game a win against Jaedong? ZvZ was always his achilles heel, but if he's able to beat jaedong then that only proves he can still be dominating even today.
and when savior's jail sentence is over and joins the sc2 scene with everyone's cynical eyes peering down on him, i will be there in the crowd waving a reminiscent black maestro flag high in the sky.
I find it humorous that a bunch of Americans and Europeans on some English forums think they know what a Korea pro gamer did in secret.
Really, are you people that stupid? Rofl. You read something in the news and then pick a side.
You guys have no fucking idea what REALLY happened. The only person who really knows is Savior.
Also, why would he admit to some things but deny others? It's pretty obvious, it's because different charges need to be proved independently. He may be guilty of one thing but not of another. Just because someone does one thing wrong doesn't mean he did everything wrong.
But the conclusion here is that a lot of you guys are really fucking stupid.
PS: I couldn't care less about some people I've never met (the progamers in this scandal), but your jumping to conclusions is blatantly stupid.
On June 04 2010 17:21 LunarDestiny wrote: Man Savior, just admit your crime.
- (T)Hwasin admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld. - (Z)sAviOr forced to retire by KeSPA, CJ releases him. - (Z)YellOw[ArnC] admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)Luxury retires. KT terminates his contract. - (T)UpMaGiC admits his crime and apologizes. - (T)go.go admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)type-b admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld
Look at this list. Other progamers already admitted their crime. And isn't Savior the one suggesting match fixing to these players. It is very unlikely that Savior never took part in a fixed match himself.
Why does that matter? They all admitted after they got caught. Fuck them.
Apologising is not enough for some of their cases, I agree.
But suppose you're a progamer who's involved in illegal match-fixing, make quite a few grand off it. Would you suddenly come out into the open and yell to the world, "I FIXED MY MATCHES"?
Use some logic.
If savior was some pawn in another's games and is true to his words in this case, I am willing to forgive him, somewhat. He still owes me an apology though, and had better destroy everyone starting 2011.
God what are you talking about? I said admitting after they've been caught means nothing, not that they should've admitted before they caught.. although I'd definitely respect someone who did that.
On June 05 2010 06:07 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: wasn't his last televised game a win against Jaedong? ZvZ was always his achilles heel, but if he's able to beat jaedong then that only proves he can still be dominating even today.
No, his last televised win was against Jaedong. He had 7 more games after that, all of which were losses.
On June 04 2010 15:41 BreakerD wrote: I think what sAviOr is trying to say is that he is guilty of conspiracy but he Never threw away any games..........
I hOpe you're right cuz I Really want sAviOr back( not as much as Hwasin though.)
On June 04 2010 17:21 LunarDestiny wrote: Man Savior, just admit your crime.
- (T)Hwasin admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld. - (Z)sAviOr forced to retire by KeSPA, CJ releases him. - (Z)YellOw[ArnC] admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)Luxury retires. KT terminates his contract. - (T)UpMaGiC admits his crime and apologizes. - (T)go.go admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)type-b admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld
Look at this list. Other progamers already admitted their crime. And isn't Savior the one suggesting match fixing to these players. It is very unlikely that Savior never took part in a fixed match himself.
someone mentioned it b4, but isn't it interesting there's no Protoss involved. Just conniving Terrans and Zergs.
On June 04 2010 17:21 LunarDestiny wrote: Man Savior, just admit your crime.
- (T)Hwasin admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld. - (Z)sAviOr forced to retire by KeSPA, CJ releases him. - (Z)YellOw[ArnC] admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)Luxury retires. KT terminates his contract. - (T)UpMaGiC admits his crime and apologizes. - (T)go.go admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)type-b admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld
Look at this list. Other progamers already admitted their crime. And isn't Savior the one suggesting match fixing to these players. It is very unlikely that Savior never took part in a fixed match himself.
someone mentioned it b4, but isn't it interesting there's no Protoss involved. Just conniving Terrans and Zergs.
Protoss don't win enough to get good odds on rigging. =(
I have a feeling Savior knows what he's doing, maybe it's a lie or not but he clearly wouldn't make it so obvious. Poor Savior, there is no way he is getting jail time though.
On June 05 2010 10:07 Skillz_Man wrote: I have a feeling Savior knows what he's doing, maybe it's a lie or not but he clearly wouldn't make it so obvious. Poor Savior, there is no way he is getting jail time though.
for fraud!?!?! HELLZ YEAH theres jail time involved for that stuff. there might be a way to shorten it if he is found innocent of most charges.
On June 05 2010 10:07 Skillz_Man wrote: I have a feeling Savior knows what he's doing, maybe it's a lie or not but he clearly wouldn't make it so obvious. Poor Savior, there is no way he is getting jail time though.
Fraud, gambling and throwing matches (as well as acting as a broker for other players to do the same)? if he's found guilty I wouldn't be surprised if an example is made of him. The time for brushing this under the rug for the sake of e-sports and its dignity is over.
On June 04 2010 17:21 LunarDestiny wrote: Man Savior, just admit your crime.
- (T)Hwasin admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld. - (Z)sAviOr forced to retire by KeSPA, CJ releases him. - (Z)YellOw[ArnC] admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)Luxury retires. KT terminates his contract. - (T)UpMaGiC admits his crime and apologizes. - (T)go.go admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)type-b admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld
Look at this list. Other progamers already admitted their crime. And isn't Savior the one suggesting match fixing to these players. It is very unlikely that Savior never took part in a fixed match himself.
someone mentioned it b4, but isn't it interesting there's no Protoss involved. Just conniving Terrans and Zergs.
On June 04 2010 15:22 ironchef wrote: That's classic, Occupation "Progamer."
At the risk of creating false narratives, I'm getting this mental image of savior smug and defiantly brushing this all off :D Sitting there with his rolex and expensive clothes, "Don't you know who I am? Im the Goddam Bonjwa"
On June 04 2010 14:44 Milkis wrote: It's actually not clear. But he's saying three things.
- Never suggsted match fixing to Hwasin - "doesn't remember" suggesting match fixing to DarkElf "later on". He accepted that he did suggest match fixing to DarkElf "earlier on". - Never participated in match fixing sites himself.
Those are the specific three charges that are being denied, what he's actually being indicted of, we don't know.
God, this stirred up such a hailstorm. How many of you just didn't read the above post (which is from the original translator of the article)?
Let me repeat this
Savior admits to fixing his matches, and all of the other charges, except:
- He never suggested match fixing to Hwasin - He doesn't remember suggesting match fixing to DarkElf later on and getting refused, although he admits doing it once, in the beginning. - He didn't bet on fixed matches, and doesn't know any betting sites.
Also, the lawyer that accepted all the charges was Justin's lawyer, and not Savior's.
On June 04 2010 15:40 Milkis wrote: - Progamer Ma has accepted most charges, but said "I admit to betting on Progamer Jin, but I never suggested or coerced him to throw the match" (T/N: Yes, the two articles are a bit contradicting)
fix: "hand money". (i guess Ma claims he was mere a money-delivery in this case.) though it won't make much differences for the whole charges, when thinking of the relationship between them, how Jin will feel differently? imho worse :/
On June 04 2010 22:43 InTheFade wrote: sAviOr: "Hey, I may be a jackass, but it's not like I'm some kind of jackass or anything."
Go away, please.
Where do you get that quote from? And a second question that is probably relevant: is making up quotes being jackass?
It's not "making up quotes", but rather translating the percieved (unspoken) message into a form which allows one to easily see what kind of an idiotic/desperate plea sAviOr is making. It may just be that a lot of stuff got lost in translation and obviously none of us were at the trial.. Putting all that aside, I think the person you called a jackass made a far better case than you just did. Not that it matters. You were just being lazy and arrogant at the same time. Poor combo.
On June 05 2010 08:49 TwoToneTerran wrote: Protoss don't win enough to get good odds on rigging. =(
This actually doesn't make sense, as the more someone is expected to lose, the better the payout for the odds is. That's why sAviOr made so much money betting against himself; he was the expected favorite in a lot of his games, but bet against himself and threw them to make money (since he probably got like 3 to 1 on his money, maybe more, I dunno how Korean sites work).
The Protoss players could have orchestrated this whole thing. DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN
On June 04 2010 15:40 Milkis wrote: - Progamer Ma has accepted most charges, but said "I admit to betting on Progamer Jin, but I never suggested or coerced him to throw the match" (T/N: Yes, the two articles are a bit contradicting)
fix: "hand money". (i guess Ma claims he was mere a money-delivery in this case.) though it won't make much differences for the whole charges, when thinking of the relationship between them, how Jin will feel differently? imho worse :/
Yeah, I didn't know what to make of the "낸". I thought it was just there as a connector or something.
Progamer Ma: "I've never suggested or coerced match fixing"
Continuing, Ma said regarding Progamer Kim under the AirForce, that "it is true that I suggested match fixing to him in the beginning, but I don't remember suggesting match fixing to him later on and getting refused."
lol what? i think someone is definitely guilty of something here.
On June 05 2010 11:50 LittLeLives wrote: Savior is just some dude who is exercising his legal rights. Good for him. Interested to see where this goes.
Yeah, I mean to those who are giving him shit for this, he's just trying to get a shorter sentence/ less severe consequence. Wouldn't you try to get in the least amount of trouble as possible if you could?
On June 05 2010 18:16 cursor wrote: I read 4 translated articles on the intratubes... I KNOW You are guilty sAviOr!!! It's JUST like a guy who's guilty to say that he's not. Gawd.
Coincidentally, it's also just like a guy who's NOT guilty to say that he's not. Hmm.
. Furthermore, during the process where courts check the address, occupation, etc of the accused, while Won answered "currently unemployed", Ma attracted attention by answering "Progamer".
On June 04 2010 15:40 Milkis wrote: - Progamer Ma has accepted most charges, but said "I admit to betting on Progamer Jin, but I never suggested or coerced him to throw the match" (T/N: Yes, the two articles are a bit contradicting)
fix: "hand money". (i guess Ma claims he was mere a money-delivery in this case.) though it won't make much differences for the whole charges, when thinking of the relationship between them, how Jin will feel differently? imho worse :/
Yeah, I didn't know what to make of the "낸". I thought it was just there as a connector or something.
On June 06 2010 18:29 machinehead.. wrote: Dude has a vod of him killing his own units throughout the game in a zvz, lmao. I'd love to see him explain that game.
There are a million and a half ways to throw a game in a matchup as volatile as ZvZ. Going 9pool and being slightly passive, or even than perfect, with your mutas will lose you the game without it looking remotely intentional, or, in the case of a mirror builds, mismicroing your scourge. Having your lings slightly out of position even, as the games EffOrt won against Stars last match show. If he's really killing his own units, he probably has some actual reason, because that would be the absolute stupidest way to throw a ZvZ.
On June 06 2010 18:29 machinehead.. wrote: Dude has a vod of him killing his own units throughout the game in a zvz, lmao. I'd love to see him explain that game.
Depending on the situation, that could be to clear up food to build other units if he didn't have enough OL's. Any match could always be a mistake. It doesn't have to be thrown.
On June 06 2010 18:29 machinehead.. wrote: Dude has a vod of him killing his own units throughout the game in a zvz, lmao. I'd love to see him explain that game.
savior sure is an idiot for throwing matches, but for goodness' sake he's not that stupid ...
hey, at least Savior is trying to prove to the public that Progamer is a legit occupation.
p/s: seeing how the word "progamer" is red-underlined in firefox (meaning it's not an actual word in English), i do hope this will change in near future ...
On June 06 2010 18:29 machinehead.. wrote: Dude has a vod of him killing his own units throughout the game in a zvz, lmao. I'd love to see him explain that game.
Did you know killing your lings to free up supply for mutalisks is very common 2 years ago?
On June 06 2010 18:29 machinehead.. wrote: Dude has a vod of him killing his own units throughout the game in a zvz, lmao. I'd love to see him explain that game.
Did you know killing your lings to free up supply for mutalisks is very common 2 years ago?
or you can have those lings on a suicide scouting mission, and maybe kill a drone or two.
On June 06 2010 18:29 machinehead.. wrote: Dude has a vod of him killing his own units throughout the game in a zvz, lmao. I'd love to see him explain that game.
Did you know killing your lings to free up supply for mutalisks is very common 2 years ago?
or you can have those lings on a suicide scouting mission, and maybe kill a drone or two.
to show them that you're saving larva by not building overlords?
players used to do this. it has nothing to do with throwing games.
On June 06 2010 18:29 machinehead.. wrote: Dude has a vod of him killing his own units throughout the game in a zvz, lmao. I'd love to see him explain that game.
It's absolutely standard to kill zerglings if you need additional mutalisks/other units and cant wait for the overlord to pop up. I'm sure you could find a vod of jaedong doing it as well but that doesn't mean he has ever thrown games.
Nobody is stupid enough to cheat blatantly like that, jesus.
On June 05 2010 05:37 Shatter wrote: Ma Jae Yoon fighting!...in court!
Heh.
I think an example needs to be made out of him and the rest of the gang- but him especially. He had so much, and had so many fans that he let down...
They should tie his right arm to a zergling, his left arm to a hydralisk, his right leg to a defiler, and his left leg to an ultralisk, and have them all run in opposite directions...
And then Reach should bang Savior's mom (though in some cultures, this is considered a great compliment).
On June 04 2010 14:49 opsayo wrote: could he actually get jail time?
after watching that after talk thing that was posted on the main page, IIRC, the commentators said that there probably wouldnt be jail time for the progamers. just a fine and a ban from e-sports?
On June 04 2010 17:21 LunarDestiny wrote: Man Savior, just admit your crime.
- (T)Hwasin admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld. - (Z)sAviOr forced to retire by KeSPA, CJ releases him. - (Z)YellOw[ArnC] admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)Luxury retires. KT terminates his contract. - (T)UpMaGiC admits his crime and apologizes. - (T)go.go admits his crime and apologizes. - (Z)type-b admits his crime and apologizes in his cyworld
Look at this list. Other progamers already admitted their crime. And isn't Savior the one suggesting match fixing to these players. It is very unlikely that Savior never took part in a fixed match himself.
One might say that ... Savoir has ... poor gg timing
According to the new tl news article, the head prosecutor of the match fixing case basically says that Savior had nothing to do with fixing matches other than hesitantly brokering some money, and rejected all offers to throw any matches. It looks like what Savior said was true. I think its unfortunate that he was banned from Kespa, since I think this redeems him for the most part.
If someone gave you money and told you to pass it to your teammate how many of you would instead report your teammate for match fixing as opposed to just giving them the money and having nothing further to do with it? Who knows Savior himself may have completely disagreed with match fixing but only did it because he would feel bad reporting his teammate.
Its unfortunate that he was the face of the whole scandal when he probably had the least to do with it out of everyone involved.
On June 09 2010 18:32 CharlieMurphy wrote: Is this translation just bad? because it doesn't quite make sense. Also, lol at showing up with cast and shit for sympathy.
lol now that we pretty much found out that everything savior said is true, i dont think the cast is for sympathy, might actually be real.
I forgot about this thread; never checked responses after my last reply. Someone posted a vod of a suspected savior match fixing game... savior wasn't just killing his own lings, he was killing every unit... mutas, scourge, etc. If no one has a reason to suspect match fixing, then I imagine you can get a little more ambitious in how you throw a game, though obviously you would think you could avoid having to kill your own units.
On June 14 2010 13:20 Avidkeystamper wrote: Unfortunately, you can't bet on WL games, so that's just savior being bad.
That might be true, but... they did announce who would be playing the first match for each team, so theoretically it could have been possible to bet on the first game (if it was the first game of the match).
Edit: I was curious before hand when I noticed it was winners league, but that response further encouraged me to see if it was the first match or not; It was the first set.
EPT
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