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[SC2B] Battle.net - 1 Step Forward, 2.0 Steps Back
February 24th, 2010 16:05 GMT
Disclaimer: This post is going to be fairly critical, and so I want people to keep in mind that Battle.net 2.0 is currently in Beta, it's not just the game that is being tested. Many features are still locked or not fully available, so please keep that in mind.The New Battle.netMuch has been said about Battle.net 2.0, how they were going to take what made Battle.net great and build on it. Various announcements ( No online replays, No chat channels) throughout development has made me go from optimistic to skeptical, and back again... so now that I've finally gotten to use it, how many of my fears were unfounded and how many weren't? In short, not nearly enough Connecting The CommunityBattle.net's social networking and communication capabilities will be some of the service's biggest new features. This new social backbone for the entire service will seamlessly integrate friends lists, matchmaking, messaging, and more. Text and voice chat are now seamlessly interwoven into and out of the game, enabling communication whether you are in Battle.net or in-game playing StarCraft II. And as is the case with previous Blizzard Entertainment titles, you can form friendships with other characters on Battle.net while preserving your anonymity. So, how does Battle.net 2.0 stack up in this regard when compared to the previous incarnations of Battle.net? Upon entering Battle.net 1 for Starcraft 1 or Warcraft 3, pretty much the first thing (okay, for WC3 you see a News screen first) is a channel full of people: ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/FrozenArbiter/SC2/USA1_resized.png) Brood War USA-1 - the starting channel for American SC players.![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/FrozenArbiter/SC2/wc3_resized.png) A WC3 clan channel - I'm too lazy to reinstall WC3 and take a screenshot of the starting screen.. SourceLet's compare this to what you are greeted with upon entering Starcraft 2 (why the hell do I need to first enter my email, click connect and THEN enter my password, by the way?): Hello? hello...hello... hello. Just an echoIt's sooooooo empty - in between games, if nobody on my friends list is online I literally feel like I'm the last person on Battle.net. This reminds me of a certain other RTS and its beta... namely Dawn of War 2: Another echo-chamber! SourceAfter a quick google search for "Dawn of war 2 no lobby" I found this little Beta Impressions post (truncated for relevance): ...I don’t know how this game made it all the way to beta (it’s actually gone gold, sadly) with GFWL in-tact. This shit should have been kicked to the curb within three days of initial testing. For future reference, Relic: either use Steam (which you already require) or emulate Battle.net (I love Battle.net). Speaking of Battle.net, there’s a model Relic should have followed for their public game lobby. As it stands right now, it’s not a lobby at all. There’s no chat options until you actually set-up a game, no friends list outside of GFWL (which is complete shit) and there’s no way to manually refresh the game list. Worthless. Well, I guess emulating Battle.net in this regard doesn't apply anymore. The Blizzard system is slightly better than Games For Windows Live I suppose (though being able to leave offline messages was useful in GFWL), but only just. As far as I am concerned, removing the chat lobby is about the most stupid decision anyone could ever make - and every time I tell someone about this omission they respond with a "WTF are you serious?". Which is a sentiment I share, so, Blizzard: "WTF, are you serious??" Next up we have the lovely way they decided to handle chatting! As far as I - and every single person I've asked this question to - am aware, there are no /whisper commands outside of /r. So, if you are in a game and want to send someone a whisper you can't just write /w LiquidNazgul. No, I have to open my friends list tab, select his name, type into the little chatbox that pops up and hit enter. Yes, after he replies I can now /r back to him, but if someone else messages in-between I have to repeat step 1. Fantastic, really. No, I think I'm gonna have to hand out a massive "FAIL" stamp for this section. The "future plans" (read: post release) for something "better than chat channels" mentioned at Blizzcon are irrelevant at this point - implementing a basic chat lobby to fill the gap until whatever it is you have planned is ready, would make everyone happier. It doesn't do your next bulletin point much good when, in considering how to organize events for SC2, the inevitable conclusion is that the only way to reasonably do so is using a 3rd party chat client such as mIRC. Update:Apparently, some new information has come to light, courtesy of the people currently reverse engineering the SC2 beta client: On February 25 2010 06:16 Zed03 wrote:Hello, I just wanted to mention that reversing of the battle.net.dll over at http://botdev.org/doku.php has already revealed that there will be chat channels, and other social features, all available under the 'social' menu, which is currently disabled. However, the OP's review is still 100% correct about the current state of battle.net, I just wouldn't get all worked up about it because those features will be there in the near future. Good news. Very good news even. It seems that their earlier estimate of not having any chat channels at launch, was changed with the delay of the beta (at the time of that comment, the beta was scheduled for 2009). The Always Connected ExperienceIn the past, Battle.net was presented as a multiplayer option off to the side, off of the main menu of Blizzard Entertainment titles. That is all changing. With the new Battle.net experience, the service and the game are now interwoven into one experience. Whether you are in single-player or multiplayer StarCraft II, you are always connected, and enjoy a bevy of new and enhanced functionality. That's a fine enough goal, I suppose and until the final game is released I don't think there's much to say about how well they've implemented it (as the beta is multiplayer only). However, there is one thing that sticks out here - like a white guy at a SC game if you will - and that is the way they've decided to handle replays. Before I continue my rant I want to say that the actual replay watching experience is GREAT! You have over half a dozen different tabs of information at your beck and call (think: BWChart but real time), First Person Camera-view for whichever player you want, as well as the ability to easily see (and utilize) either players hotkeys. And last, but definitely not least - in fact, it might be fair to say that this is about as far from least as you can get - is the ability to seamlessly jump back in time in a replay (you can not jump ahead further than the game has loaded, however). This takes but a second or two and is a really nice future for when you are trying to catch some early specifics of a build but keep zoning out because hey, those Reapers are so damn pretty when you zoom up close... ooooooh shiny! But - and this is a big but - you have to watch them alone. While you can invite players to custom games you have created, starting a replay is just you and nobody else - I cannot stress how much this sucks, and I can assure you that I'm not alone in thinking this. Unlike when watching replays. Oh and come on, let me scroll through the replay folder with my arrow keys - the double click is so damn sensitive that I keep accidentally starting replays when trying to browse. Note: They have said that this is something they "would like to implement in the future", however please understand that after WC3 has gone 8 years without this feature (and it was requested during the beta), I am a bit skeptical. Competitive Arena For EveryoneOne of the biggest improvements that the new Battle.net service brings to StarCraft II is smarter and more accurate matchmaking. While the legacy Battle.net service had good matchmaking, the standard experience for new players was usually a series of crushing defeats against seasoned Battle.net veterans until they either left or developed the skills necessary to thrive in Battle.net's competitive environment.
The new Battle.net matchmaking service will measure player skill more accurately than ever before, making online competitive play more accessible for a wider audience. What’s more, we are introducing an all-new Battle.net Leagues and Ladders System to the service. After using the auto-matchmaking system a few times, Battle.net will automatically slot you into a league and division that best suits your skill level. Our goal here is to encourage local competition by finding you a neighborhood of 100 players of equal skill against whom you will be ranked. This will make ranked online play much more enjoyable and give everyone a realistic chance to win their division.
Beyond ranked matches, Battle.net will also make it much easier to compete by offering a number of other game modes. Custom games will of course make their return, but there will also be a slew of new, casual-friendly game modes such as the Practice League, Co-op Versus AI (players versus the computer), Challenges, and more. I don't know about you, but this was one of the things I looked forward to the most with SC2. We didn't get much info about the specifics but the promise of a truly organized competitive avenue like this, was rich. So, what became of that promise? Unlike the previous two bulletin points, I think that it's a bit early to say. I'm not sure how long a season is, or how often the tournaments that the top 8 of a division qualify for are going to be held. I'll have to wait until they reveal their exact plans in this regard before saying too much either way. However, I'm sorely disappointed in the complete inability to view overall rankings. Being ranked within a division is all well and good, and getting to play some end of season tournaments with those people sounds like it could be fun.... But I don't care that I'm "#8 in Platinum Division 3", I want to know what that makes me server-wide. Is it top 50? Top 100? Top 200? Even if, for some reason, Blizzard do not wish to keep this sort of ranking (why? I am playing vs people from every division, from every league, anyway) I should still be able to view all division rankings. Given how excellent Blizzard's statistics tracking was for WC3, I think they will likely have this implemented at some point later on in the beta. As for the matchmaking, it seems to do its job. I am disappointed that they didn't allow for the option to pick matchups (NOTE: I do not mean to pick your opponents race, I mean to pick YOUR race for each specific matchup - instead of picking T I could pick TvP, TvZ, PvT, TvR) but I wasn't expecting this to be available. Custom GamesMuch has been said about the potential for SC2 and user created maps, but as the beta does not come with a map editor (for its early stages anyway), it's too early to say much about this. Given their track record, I'm fairly confident it will be a success... What can be said, however, is that the present implementation of Custom Games really sucks. Completely unable to view any information about the creator, or any otherwise distinguishing features.If you want to create a custom game, you simply choose create game -> choose a map and then you are taken to a lobby screen. Sounds simple enough, right? Yes, but it leaves much to be desired. First of all, there are absolutely no distinguishing features when a custom game is created - you can't see who the host is, the game doesn't even have a game name! All that is listed is Map, Speed and Mode. There is no option to create a password protected game, but games are by default not visible until you choose to make them so. This is not a problem, but only because of the omission of such basic features such as a chat lobby or a competent whispering system. In order to invite someone to your private custom game, you have to first add him to your friend list, and then send him the invite. The options for observers, referees and so on are solid, but once you have created a game you are unable to switch map. This is quite puzzling, at the very least you should be able to switch map in private games, while still in the game lobby. Another (minor) annoyance is the countdown timer - for god knows what reason, it is set to 10 seconds. Why? I have no idea. In conclusionSo, after all this, one might get the impression that I think Battle.net 2.0 is a huge, unfixable piece of shit... but it really isn't. It is - as far as I can tell - already less buggy than the old Battle.net (remember all those black lists? yeah, no more of that bullshit). The interface is beautiful, without being slowed by needless animations (think: Warcraft 3 chains) and while a good portion of the features (such as the statistics tab) are not available at the moment, they hold a lot of promise. If just the two major issues above (chat channels and online replays) were fixed, I would be perfectly content to call Battle.net 2.0 a huge improvement over its predecessor... However, given how big these two issues are, I feel like the new Battle.net has taken one step forward and two steps backwards. Which really doesn't get you anywhere  The upside of all this is that - at least as far as chat channels are concerned - it should be easy to fix! Here's to hope 
From the Peanut GalleryIf you have not already done so, be sure to check out the two excellent YGosu interviews with ZenioWerra and Check, translated by our own Waxangel: YGosu interviews ZenioWerra YGosu interviews Check ZenioWerra was an aspiring WC3 progamer until about a year ago, when he heard the SC2 beta was getting close. As such, he quit WC3 and spent a year laddering on ICCUP attaining A- after just 3 seasons of play! He is currently one of the top ranked players on the Korean SC2 beta server. Check is a long time, top tier, Korean WC3 progamer (Night Elf) with competitive success dating back all the way to the original Reign of Chaos (for those of you unaware, that's the name of WC3 pre-expansion, so essentially he's been around since the beginning). He is currently one of the top ranked players on the Korean SC2 beta server, as well. As is to be expected from a YGosu interview, they are very light hearted and informative. Give them a read!
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Did read. Good read. Thanks! The missing lobby really stood out to me watching streams. (Edit: As did the missing overall ranking. As did not being able to watch replays with other people. As did...)
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good article seems about bang on, hopefully they make some changes
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agree with you completely, although the inactivated "channels" tab seems to be what ur looking for when it comes to chatting. I dont see anything hinting at online replays being implemented though and that really sucks huge monkey balls. Its really shitty to be like "omg I just beat XYZ in this epic game, you gotta watch this... oh nvm 8[". Sending the replay via email or icq and then timing the replay start together to be able to have a somewhat similar experience is obviously a crappy solution. One more thing Id like to add that you didnt mention: Why on earth is voice chat deactivated in custom games? Its totally bollocks if you play a casual 1on1 just to test things out or smth against a friend whom youve invited to your party and then when ur ingame playing against each other, voice chat is automatically deactivated.
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I absolutely agree, no chat channels (as well as online replays) is just such a nonsense, i just don't see a reason why did they take step back, if they implemented these features in SC1/Bnet1.0 then why can't they do the same now? :|
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Great read FA. I hope they realise how massively important these changes are.
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Umm...race-picking wouldn't work. Let's say you pick ZvP, ZvT, TvZ. Your opponent picks ZvZ, PvT, PvP.
Now what?
--oberon
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Considering the social tab isn't even available yet.. i'm optimistic the chat channels will be there..
Regarding online replays.. i really hope you can view them together with friends later on..
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Yup, I agree the interface seems good ... it just needs some tweaks, which they will most likely do.
I never took much advantage of multiple people watching a replay, but I can definitely see why people would want this. Being able to voice chat while going over a replay would be a great learning experience for sure!
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agreed.
I dont understand the point of making multiple divisions. They made seperate leagues aint that enough?? maybe it's to make more people happy being number 1 but thats retarded.
also, too hard to follow the ladders when thousand of people hit bnet once the game is released.
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Interesting. I have wondered about the chat feature as well when watching streaming channels. I guess I assumed you could just click "chat" or something and go to a general lobby area.
The fact that one doesn't exist is quite saddening.
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This.
I just can't understand why it would be reasonable NOT to include chatrooms, and if there is an explanation, PLEASE Blizzard, ENLIGHTEN me and 99% of the community, who definitely WANT to chat inbetween games. High activity on bnet doesn't necessarily mean, that all these people are actually playing, they're hanging out in channels, chatting and perhaps discussing different strategies etc.
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Great post FA. I couldn't understand if any of those things were left unfixed until release. Then again, Blizzard has a history of making incomprehensible decisions when it comes to community requests. That seems to have changed during the development of SC2 however, so as you said: to hope. 
Regarding divisions I would like to add that the overall ranking is especially (only?) important for the absolute top. I guess if you are in the silver league it's really nicer than seeing you are ranked 32450th instead of 32550th. So maybe the idea is to have just one pro-division after beta which has all the top players. Other than that, I really can't understand why they would voluntarily make it difficult to see who is actually first or top3 or whatever. They should have made only one platinum division for now though. That's the system you will find in pretty much all other sports too. Can you imagine Premier League 1, Premier League 2 etc? Then again I've heard rumors about certain exotic sports where there are multiple 'conferences'... oOa
edit:
On February 25 2010 01:20 oberon wrote: Umm...race-picking wouldn't work. Let's say you pick ZvP, ZvT, TvZ. Your opponent picks ZvZ, PvT, PvP.
Now what?
--oberon
I think FA is talking about the automated match making. So if that happens the algorithm will just find another opponent.
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MrMoose
Canada176 Posts
On February 25 2010 01:05 FrozenArbiter wrote: But - and this is a big but -
I like big buts.
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dam this new b.net really look bad :\ I want chat room, I want game name, I Want I want
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So true.. when I play the beta I often have the "am I the only one in here" feeling without the chat channels.
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battlenet was a sexy orgy pit where you saw everyone grovving and could chat it up and feel welcomed or at least like you were participating in "something big". battlenet2, and its match-making system, is as soulless and contrived as a hole in the wall that your place your cock into.
+ Show Spoiler +i just want the fucking shift + F2-F4 keys to work..
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Hit it right on the head. Couldn't agree more on all accounts. I got on for the first time yesterday evening and it was like "...hello? =("
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Great read. I agree completely that the ability to interact with the community will be invaluable to bnet 2.0. Sure, there will always be retards, spam, whatever...But not having such simple features seems like a horrible mistake. Also I did not know about not being able to /w in game. That is pretty fucking stupid.
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Blizzard should really learn from S2 Games and the improvements they came up with for their online interface in HoN, which included an excellent chatting system, possibility of reconnection after dropping and even more options when viewing replays
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Keep in mind that we have no idea what the currently greyed-out Social button might contain. Wouldn't be surprised if there was a chat-channel system in there.
Good read though, I agree with most of it. Hoping that blizzard will see this and atleast take it into consideration
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Uh, yeah, I think it is common sense that chat channels will be implemented. I'm confused as to why this is such a big issue at the moment. Obviously, they aren't going to release a game without them.
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No worries, i'm sure that greyed out social tab is there for a reason!
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I only agree with the chatrooms and replays and afaik due to all the complaints on their forums chatrooms will probably be in on release, I actually prefer the division based ranking - as someone who isn't anywhere near the top of the SC crème de la crème I couldn't care less that im 1 millionth in the world, being xth of the y division gives me something close and achievable rather than some high up distant and the idea that there will be automated tournaments with other people from my rank level is great. However I hope that the post release "pro" division championships will be more transparent and hopefully they will enable some sort of observing for the top division's championship games.
Maybe thats just because I'm used to finding scrims etc on IRC as I wasn't that active in broodwar rather than the channels on bnet / the abyss.
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"Implementing a basic chat lobby to fill the gap until whatever it is you have planned is ready, would make everyone happier." They know that as soon as they do that, even if it's temporary, there's going to be huge backlash when they swap it out for something different. And it does take man hours to implement that: hours that they could invest into more enduring features. So the fact is that what they said at Blizzcon about something better than chat channels is indeed relevant.
On wanting to know where you stand sever wide, assuming you're assigned divisions at random, your rank in your division should tell you more or less where you stand server wide. If you're ranked 50th, that should mean you're better than about 50% of all players on, say, Gold. Although, knowing my "true rank" out of millions of players would be interesting. A compromise could be implementing the same thing that Tetrisfriends.com does. They tell you your percentile straight up (comparing your high score to others). That info would be even more interesting. (Ranking out of millions doesn't tell me much, but knowing I'm in the 75th percentile tells me a great deal.)
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Agreed with lots of that, I played WC3 for years before ever playing Starcraft, and when I saw you were able to watch replays with other people I thought "Why the hell isnt this in WC3?!?!"
But remember, its only been out for a week - if its all the same in 3 months time, then I'm sure everyone will start to get pissed off.
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On February 25 2010 01:19 Kaniol wrote: I absolutely agree, no chat channels (as well as online replays) is just such a nonsense, i just don't see a reason why did they take step back, if they implemented these features in SC1/Bnet1.0 then why can't they do the same now? :| cause a change dosent mean all stuffs+new one means new thinks wich can have no relate to the original ones
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 25 2010 01:18 damenmofa wrote: agree with you completely, although the inactivated "channels" tab seems to be what ur looking for when it comes to chatting. I dont see anything hinting at online replays being implemented though and that really sucks huge monkey balls. Its really shitty to be like "omg I just beat XYZ in this epic game, you gotta watch this... oh nvm 8[". Sending the replay via email or icq and then timing the replay start together to be able to have a somewhat similar experience is obviously a crappy solution. One more thing Id like to add that you didnt mention: Why on earth is voice chat deactivated in custom games? Its totally bollocks if you play a casual 1on1 just to test things out or smth against a friend whom youve invited to your party and then when ur ingame playing against each other, voice chat is automatically deactivated. Ahhh, where's that channels tab? I haven't seen it. If they do have that, it would take care of my biggest criticism.
On February 25 2010 01:53 RANDOMCL wrote: Uh, yeah, I think it is common sense that chat channels will be implemented. I'm confused as to why this is such a big issue at the moment. Obviously, they aren't going to release a game without them. You realize, of course, that they said at Blizzcon that there would be no chat channels for the game at launch? Like, they said literally just that. I even linked to a post about it.
On February 25 2010 01:56 bmml wrote: I only agree with the chatrooms and replays and afaik due to all the complaints on their forums chatrooms will probably be in on release, I actually prefer the division based ranking - as someone who isn't anywhere near the top of the SC crème de la crème I couldn't care less that im 1 millionth in the world, being xth of the y division gives me something close and achievable rather than some high up distant and the idea that there will be automated tournaments with other people from my rank level is great. However I hope that the post release "pro" division championships will be more transparent and hopefully they will enable some sort of observing for the top division's championship games.
Maybe thats just because I'm used to finding scrims etc on IRC as I wasn't that active in broodwar rather than the channels on bnet / the abyss. But you can still have division rankings, you just have to have an overall ranking as well.
For instance, let's say I'm #10 in divsion 3, then if I click "Overall rankings" I'd see that hey - I'm #80 ovrerall. Or whatever.
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Keep in mind that Blizzard specifically said at Blizzcon there wouldn't be chat channels at release. That was a while ago at least, but let's hope they change their minds now. I really do feel alone on Bnet as it is. :/
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On February 25 2010 01:20 oberon wrote: Umm...race-picking wouldn't work. Let's say you pick ZvP, ZvT, TvZ. Your opponent picks ZvZ, PvT, PvP.
Now what?
--oberon You need to specify a race vs. random too. I think that in the absence of otherwise agreeable matchups it just sticks both players with their vs. random race.
This seems fine to me.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 25 2010 01:20 oberon wrote: Umm...race-picking wouldn't work. Let's say you pick ZvP, ZvT, TvZ. Your opponent picks ZvZ, PvT, PvP.
Now what?
--oberon You both default to your vs Random choice.
So the ZvP ZvT TvZ guy probably is ZvP ZvT TvZ ZvR, the ZvZ, PvT, PvP guy probably is PvR. EDIT: What crate said, at the same time as me 
On February 25 2010 01:40 MrMoose wrote:I like big buts. I'm glad someone noticed
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I think this shoulda came out after all the battle.net features were unlocked in the beta -- but I guess its good to make it clear we want channels...
And I don't see why in a ladder situation you should be able to pick and choose your matchups... if you play zerg you shouldn't get a scape goat on your worst matchup its a random ladder with random maps and players...not iccup. I didn't get this option in war3 and I wouldn't want it.
I wish I could watch replays with friends >< I really do hope they figure that out.
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On February 25 2010 02:16 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 01:18 damenmofa wrote: agree with you completely, although the inactivated "channels" tab seems to be what ur looking for when it comes to chatting. I dont see anything hinting at online replays being implemented though and that really sucks huge monkey balls. Its really shitty to be like "omg I just beat XYZ in this epic game, you gotta watch this... oh nvm 8[". Sending the replay via email or icq and then timing the replay start together to be able to have a somewhat similar experience is obviously a crappy solution. One more thing Id like to add that you didnt mention: Why on earth is voice chat deactivated in custom games? Its totally bollocks if you play a casual 1on1 just to test things out or smth against a friend whom youve invited to your party and then when ur ingame playing against each other, voice chat is automatically deactivated. Ahhh, where's that channels tab? I haven't seen it. If they do have that, it would take care of my biggest criticism. Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 01:53 RANDOMCL wrote: Uh, yeah, I think it is common sense that chat channels will be implemented. I'm confused as to why this is such a big issue at the moment. Obviously, they aren't going to release a game without them. You realize, of course, that they said at Blizzcon that there would be no chat channels for the game at launch? Like, they said literally just that. I even linked to a post about it. Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 01:56 bmml wrote: I only agree with the chatrooms and replays and afaik due to all the complaints on their forums chatrooms will probably be in on release, I actually prefer the division based ranking - as someone who isn't anywhere near the top of the SC crème de la crème I couldn't care less that im 1 millionth in the world, being xth of the y division gives me something close and achievable rather than some high up distant and the idea that there will be automated tournaments with other people from my rank level is great. However I hope that the post release "pro" division championships will be more transparent and hopefully they will enable some sort of observing for the top division's championship games.
Maybe thats just because I'm used to finding scrims etc on IRC as I wasn't that active in broodwar rather than the channels on bnet / the abyss. But you can still have division rankings, you just have to have an overall ranking as well. For instance, let's say I'm #10 in divsion 3, then if I click "Overall rankings" I'd see that hey - I'm #80 ovrerall. Or whatever. oopsie, meant the social tab. I just naturely assumed it would have channels and it was such a given to have channels for me that I apparently renamed it to "channels" in my mind. Now that Ive followed your link and read they said they wouldnt implement it for retail im pretty much blown away by their idiocy. I cant understand how you can come up with an awesome game like SC2, where you put ages of development time into and then totally fail at basic Interface shit that has been standard since a long time. So far that makes the following features not being available _at shipping date_ (from various interviews):
Customizable Hotkeys Online Replays Chat Channels
Honestly, even one of these features not being in a RTS retailing 2010 would be a huge WTF for me, but if they really go through and implement none of these.... No, I cant put into words how that would make me feel t.t
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I'd be incredibly amazed if you couldn't watch replays with friends in SC2.
I really hope they fix that.
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Blizzard don't even understand in the slightest what made their own games so enjoyable/successful, this is so stupid.
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Sweden33719 Posts
They know that as soon as they do that, even if it's temporary, there's going to be huge backlash when they swap it out for something different. And it does take man hours to implement that: hours that they could invest into more enduring features. So the fact is that what they said at Blizzcon about something better than chat channels is indeed relevant.
As opposed to the huge backlash they are going to get at release when there's no chat channels and no substitute? I mean, if what they have planned is so great, then I'd much rather take the backlash when they replace channels, rather than suffer the negativity of saying "oh, well, we have nothing but just you wait! In a few months..."
At least when they come out with something better to replace channels, they can call it an upgrade.
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On February 25 2010 02:16 FrozenArbiter wrote: For instance, let's say I'm #10 in divsion 3, then if I click "Overall rankings" I'd see that hey - I'm #80 ovrerall. Or whatever.
Well I imagine that is the kinda small easily fixed change they can make in the beta
at least I hope it is ;p.
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good writeup FA - one more thing about replays that I would add (which I would assume or at least hope is coming) is a bwchart-like view of the game before you even select the replay. Right now all you see is the players and the map. Why not show before you even loaded the game all the unit/building/resource/economy/apm stats like bwchart? Why not show you your overall player stats like average apm, # of games against each matchup, your most common builds, etc. like bwchart?
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lol! go play the game! go play for free man! YOU PLAY FOR FREE and i cant play at all! so wait for fucking release with social complain
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I don't mind the lack of chat channels as long as they let us create private chatrooms and invite friends and "recently played" players. After all, Xbox Live does not have chat channels and it's a perfectly viable social network.
On the other hand, the lack of online replays is flabbergasting. Anyone who's played Halo 3 can tell you that replays are way more fun to watch together.
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sure bnet is great for playing games but without chat lobbies, its sorely lacking in the social department
its prob one of the two reasons why i still play (the other being UMS games)
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On February 25 2010 02:45 Piousflea wrote: I don't mind the lack of chat channels as long as they let us create private chatrooms and invite friends and "recently played" players. After all, Xbox Live does not have chat channels and it's a perfectly viable social network.
On the other hand, the lack of online replays is flabbergasting. Anyone who's played Halo 3 can tell you that replays are way more fun to watch together. Omg no, Xbox Live or Windows Live totally suck ass compared to bnet 1.0. Judging from your post content and postcount you must be a console gamer...
Additionally, using halo 3 as an example why online replays are much more fun on the biggest SC1 fansite around doesnt seem like a clever way of arguing
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On February 25 2010 02:45 Piousflea wrote: I don't mind the lack of chat channels as long as they let us create private chatrooms and invite friends and "recently played" players. After all, Xbox Live does not have chat channels and it's a perfectly viable social network.
On the other hand, the lack of online replays is flabbergasting. Anyone who's played Halo 3 can tell you that replays are way more fun to watch together. no its not
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The reason why xbox live doesn't have chat channels is because xbox live doesn't have a keyboard. That is a design decision they went with because it made sense on that platform. On the PC, that's ludicrous. It is the stupidest, most short-sighted thing I could imagine.
I don't have a single friend right now on battle.net because the only way to get them is to either have someone in real life who is in the beta, or find one on a forum I happen to frequent.
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Awesome, my website got quoted and linked! Pity I couldn't get in the beta to bitch about this myself.
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They can't include all battle.net features right at release. Who would buy Heart Of The Swarm and Legacy Of The Void if Wings Of Liberty already contained all the basic features people expect to get for their money?
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Agreed on every single point. Chat channels is a huge and completely inexcusable omission. No online replays is only a few steps behind. A huge part of the community interaction on b.net in BW was watching replays together. Taking that away is a serious blow to the game. Additionally I can't see that as being that hard to implement or being all that resource-intensive. So wtf?
Overall rankings are also a big deal. Being ranked solely in tiny little groups really does nothing, as I cannot see that rating as having any real meaning. 100 people when b.net will have 50k+ players playing SC2 at the same time? Great I am ranked in a group of people most of who I have never played before (because what are the chances that of all the players on the ladder you will get to play one of the 100 in your specific division?). Yeah that's really great way to see how I am ranked. Makes no sense what so ever.
No game names is also an inexplicable step backwards. Combined with no lobby chat it becomes far far worse.
I hope Blizzard fixes these issue before release. As is, the new B.net sounds barely usable.
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Feels lonely? Battle.net is lonely too you know, nothing new here. T T
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United States7166 Posts
oh FA.. thank god you wrote this.. I agree with all the points
please for the love of god Blizzard just implement the absolutely amazing features/platform that Heroes of Newerth uses! and also the ability to reconnect after crashing/disconnecting would be great (mostly useful for custom games, but on occasion if you can come back fast could be useful on ladder too)
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The other thing that I would like to see is the ranking of your opponent in the game loading screen. Sure the favored/not favored tracker at the bottom helps, but i think it would be fun to know exactly who you were facing, without having to ask.
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@the original poster. I agree with everything. One thing though you CAN reply to a private msgs in. Game very simply. Press eneter to type and press tab to cycle through recent people you've communicated with. Anyone who has an open conversation with you while Your in a game can be responded to by just hitting the tab key after pressing enter to change the recipient.
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On February 25 2010 02:44 valleyatsc wrote: lol! go play the game! go play for free man! YOU PLAY FOR FREE and i cant play at all! so wait for fucking release with social complain So, the concept of a beta must have eluded you.
They don't play for free. They pay with constructive criticism.
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Good read and I agree with many of the things addressed.
However, Blizzard has always done a great job of implementing features/fixes post-release. All of these features probably can and will be implemented with enough beta feedback. Keep in mind features are limited because this is, in fact, a testing phase.
In SC, the replay feature was not released until 1.08 and other little enhancements were added in the original battle.net interface as things progressed.
This is not an accurate representation of the finished battle.net 2.0, nor will it be when the product ships.
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On February 25 2010 02:44 valleyatsc wrote: lol! go play the game! go play for free man! YOU PLAY FOR FREE and i cant play at all! so wait for fucking release with social complain
It's called feedback, that's what beta is all about, the dev's getting feedback from various sources.
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FA you make it all sound soo dreadful =(. I'm seriously doubting Blizzard right now in the regards of being able to deliver a good gaming platform. After reading your article it seems that the new b.net is a huge disappointement and has more design flaws that a swiss cheese has holes! I'm starting to lose faith in B.net 2.0 =( hope they'll do something about it. Is it official and permanent that chat channels will be out? Or can we at least hope for their implimentation? Same question for reps online?
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On February 25 2010 02:16 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 01:53 RANDOMCL wrote: Uh, yeah, I think it is common sense that chat channels will be implemented. I'm confused as to why this is such a big issue at the moment. Obviously, they aren't going to release a game without them. You realize, of course, that they said at Blizzcon that there would be no chat channels for the game at launch? Like, they said literally just that. I even linked to a post about it. .
You make it sound like you're the only one following the game. Your post links to information saying that the traditional chat channels won't be there, but:
"Because we have something much bigger planned, chat channels are messy".
It is common sense that there is going to a way to mass communicate with people. Maybe it won't be called a "channel", but it is ridiculous to think they won't allow players to communicate with ease.
You are going off what Blizzard says as fact, right? "You realize, of course, that they said at Blizzcon that there would be no chat channels for the game at launch?" So, you managed to take half of what they said, and misconstrue it. You are part of the reason people are getting so much false information. If such an article, loaded with misinformation, is allowed to be posted on the front page of the premier foreign SC site, what does that say?
Just stop, breathe, and think. Blizzard has already promised an alternative. It is confirmed in your own post.
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i love tl cause they know whats important for a competitive gamer whos been around for years on bw/wc. unlike blizzard ppl
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 25 2010 03:51 RANDOMCL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 02:16 FrozenArbiter wrote:On February 25 2010 01:53 RANDOMCL wrote: Uh, yeah, I think it is common sense that chat channels will be implemented. I'm confused as to why this is such a big issue at the moment. Obviously, they aren't going to release a game without them. You realize, of course, that they said at Blizzcon that there would be no chat channels for the game at launch? Like, they said literally just that. I even linked to a post about it. . You make it sound like you're the only one following the game. Your post links to information saying that the traditional chat channels won't be there, but: "Because we have something much bigger planned, chat channels are messy". It is common sense that there is going to a way to mass communicate with people. Maybe it won't be called a "channel", but it is ridiculous to think they won't allow players to communicate with ease. You are going off what Blizzard says as fact, right? "You realize, of course, that they said at Blizzcon that there would be no chat channels for the game at launch?" So, you managed to take half of what they said, and misconstrue it. You are part of the reason people are getting so much false information. If such an article, loaded with misinformation, is allowed to be posted on the front page of the premier foreign SC site, what does that say? Just stop, breathe, and think. Blizzard has already promised an alternative. It is confirmed in your own post. I'm sorry but FA is voicing some pretty serious concerns. I don't care what blizzard has planned, I'm only concerned with what they are showing us at the moment. Look at WC3 for instance, they still don't have communal replays - despite it being planned! I don't see any misinformation in FA's post, he's simply pointing out the flaws of what has been presented with us. With the vast number of users on this forum agreeing with the concerns raised, I would wager that these concerns are definitely valid and important.
Basically, until I see this "better than chat channels" alternative there is no reason for me to beleive that we are going to see anything.
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No chat channels makes me a sad panda. I actually formed a years long friendship from a sc1 chat channel. Considering none of my friends are into rts's anymore I would look forward to finding a few cool people into the same thing by hanging in a channel. To be honest if they don't implement a chat channel I can't see playing this game more than 6 months to a year. Playing random people and laddering is all well and good but its very hard to casually stick to a game much longer when the social aspect of it is so entirely lacking. Honestly I can't understand why blizz would not want chat channels in b.net it makes no sense. People that want to randomly socialize will use them, people that don't wont. Does excluding a chat aspect have an upside worth alienating the nerds that like to chat and set up fun observer games between each other while taking a break from the ladder? I can't think of any "upside" to this decision.
Also not having basic commands like /r+tab to quickly cycle through the last few whisper recipients just seems like so much fail. The company wants to make b.net a huge social networking thing with an easy lead in to e-sports and they forget to put in some fundamental chat commands? hah Im sure it will be fixed but its humorous seeing such basic things missing at this point. Maybe they should pull in a few wow programmers to implement what is basically a requirement for any social gaming environment ie smooth social interaction tools.
Your article hits the nail on the head imo.
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I totally agree on all aspects of this article. The social part of battle.net 1 was amazing, where battle.net 2 sounds like... almost isolation... and that's no good for me.
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*CLAP* Not much that can be added. I really hope many of the missing features are due to this being a BETA. One of my biggest complaints is when I goto my friends list (under ladders) and say I want more information on "Player X"... when I click his/her name there's no logical way to go back. Which means you have to repeat the process all over again (similar to what you mentioned about a lack of whisper).
And what's with the gimped Friends List? How can it be that when I add someone it doesn't notify them that I'd like to add them.
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No chat lobby? No collective replay watching?
wtf?
srsly wtf?
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what also bothers me it that there hasnt even been a SINGLE blue post in neither the Bug report, nor the Suggestions/Balance forum. They could at least post their plans on how to communicate with the testers.
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Man, Blizzard should be ADDING features, like streaming games like reps like they do on iCCup, not removing them.
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I didn't realize these huge faults.
I'm not going to provide the classic ultimatum of; 'I refuse to buy the game if chat rooms and online replays aren't in the retail release!!!!!". However, I view this decision by Blizzard as gross negligence. How can they build requirements for Bnet 2.0 and NOT include chat rooms? Did the people building Bnet 2.0 even use the original? Did they talk to their user base? I guess operating assumptions are that brand loyalty overpowers usability testing. Fucking cute, you going to give us some Ubisoft DRM with SC2 as well? Oh wait...
Perhaps I'm blowing everything out of proportion, but this is absurd to me. New Bnet 2.0 is so shiny and pretty, hurray! Broodwar's user base has continuously played the game for over a decade, do you honestly think we give a fuck about graphics? Functionality should have been concern #1.
With the exception of Steam I have yet to find a gaming network (Games for Windows Life, Rockstar Social Network, etc) that trumps Bnet 1.0. If this keeps up looks like I can add Bnet 2.0 to the Games for Windows Live group; bloated, worthless, obnoxious pieces of trash that a 14 year old gamer (quite literally) could have done a better job writing product requirements for.
Wow, didn't realize how angry I was about this until I started typing. I really hope I have to eat my words. TLDR: Dear Blizzard please don't remove existing functionality while updating battle.net.
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Blizzard has taken a Google approach. The difference is that they failed at it. To me, it's just web cloud bullshit.
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Thanks for the update. Really disappointed about no chat rooms, but I really like the accurate matchmaking though.
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Read is ok ...
But all the features are in the first beta version not implemented ... Chatrooms are comming and I think the customt games will be better in the future ...
imo an useless news
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It also needs an inbuilt WaaaaaghTV.
Why can we chat over encoded video streams, but not have it in the actual game itself???
This was something I was really hoping for.
I suppose this could hit 2 birds with one stone as you could also use it for online replays.
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Wow, the OP is so negative towards blizzards ability, or will, to fix these issues, that it is ridiculous. They have pulled through on so many issues, why would they not do this on e.g. the missing global chat.
I mean, do you really, really believe there won't be a global chat thing? Do you really believe blizzard are not currently working on it and that it has therefore not been released yet. Like they want you to be lonely.
It is fine to discuss things that are missing and there are good points, but the OP is just so negative it takes away all focus from the issues at hand.
This, basically:
On February 25 2010 05:13 funkiwi wrote: Read is ok ...
But all the features are in the first beta version not implemented ... Chatrooms are comming and I think the customt games will be better in the future ...
imo an useless news
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I highly doubt they will add a race picking feature, but if they did I would probably play all of the mirrors. I've always been very good at mirrors and slightly less so at TvP and ZvT.
As far as "rankings" go I think it's worth pointing out that the ladders hosted by a game company have NEVER been an accurate reading of skill in the community. I finished 7th in season 2 of vanilla ladder and if you were around back then you know how tough it was to sit in the top 10 because probably 80 of the top 100 were win swapping or padding their stats by playing only noobs. Sure they banned 'some' of them, but lots of names that should have been banned weren't. I think we will still need some form of private ladder to be honest because there's no way blizzard will maintain it as well as the community will.
My only gripe is that i can't watch reps with friends... This was a huge part of SC1 for me. Any time someone would have a realyl good game or had a problem we would pile into a game and watch the rep and have fun or give advice... huge part of my SC1 experience right there and that sucks I can't do that in SC2 (yet)
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On February 25 2010 03:07 beetlelisk wrote:Don't dissapoint us...
Oh my god, his eye is possessed.
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I think the reason Blizzard did not release their new chat/social features is because these types of places are a breeding ground for unconstructive criticism. Imagine a central channel like WoW's general chat in the SC2 beta, everyone would be YELLING this is OP and that build is OP etc. Places like Team Liquid, the beta's feedback and forum are much better for collecting well constructed feedback and do not create the unmoderated atomosphere for negetivity that chat rooms and global chats do.
I also believe the communal replay watching feature will be in the game at release. Perhaps they have included a host of new features in the program that will easily enable replay sharing/casting etc and just being able to watch the replays with others is a small part of the overall picture.
Right now they are working on server stability, balance issues etc, the core of the game. You have to remember the game has been live a week now and as far as Blizzard is concerned they only need certain data right now.
Also, I seem to remember a certain MMO that had all their communitcation functions disabled for beta except guild chat.
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United States24614 Posts
In addition to what FA said, and it might have already been pointed out previously, the map opt-out feature seems to not work... someone else and I both opted out of desert oasis because it sucks and it gave it to us anyway!?
Also, one slight bug/error/whatever is that the stats sometimes take like 20 seconds to update and it says you have no 1v1 history after you are in a division already :p
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IMO, maybe they are kept out because it is a testing phase and blizz doesn't want us to sit around in chat and not testing , just like most people do in SC and WC3
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I absolutely agree with everything that was said. Out of everything I experienced in the beta so far, the new Battle.net is by far the most dissapointing thing. It is just such a cold and isolated experience. Even though people hardly spoke in the old Battle.net and ICCup, at least it gave you a feeling that you were online with thousands of other players. That said, while I do want chat channels to return, I do agree with Blizzard that they could be improved upon.
I am also incredibly saddened by the fact that the ability to watch replays online is currently not planned for ship. Half of the enjoyment of Brood War for me was watching replays with other people. I just hope they plan to put them in as soon as possible.
Also, while the AMM is good, I was hoping for an ability to limit my opponents to a specific race so that I can practice a specific matchup. Unfortunately, though, that is unlikely to happen.
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Not having chat rooms is a horrible idea, whoever thought that one up should be fired from Blizzard asap. Trying to make it more like Steam and less like Battle.net is a bad change, imo.
Also no online replays.... seriously Blizzard.... whoever thought that one up should be fired and made to slit their wrists.
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United States24614 Posts
On February 25 2010 05:41 Tom Phoenix wrote:I am also incredibly saddened by the fact that the ability to watch replays online is currently not planned for ship. Half of the enjoyment of Brood War for me was watching replays with other people.  I just hope they plan to put them in as soon as possible. Yeah, but it's also very important from a standpoint of learning/teaching. It's obviously fun/entertaining to watch reps together online though.
I'm trying to imagine incontrol giving sc2 lessons without the ability to go over replays... not impossible but probably sucks.
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"The options for observers, referees and so on are solid, but once you have created a game you are unable to switch map. This is quite puzzling, at the very least you should be able to switch map in private games, while still in the game lobby."
Wait, where is the option to open observer slots?
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The social button is disabled, perhaps that is where the chat function is?
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On February 25 2010 05:47 Limz wrote: The social button is disabled, perhaps that is where the chat function is? Was about to post same thing, I can't believe so many people didn't saw that.
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Canada5565 Posts
These are some pretty basic problems you're pointing out. They sound pretty annoying partly because they could so simply be fixed. Hope they get around to it...
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 25 2010 02:39 zeppelin wrote: good writeup FA - one more thing about replays that I would add (which I would assume or at least hope is coming) is a bwchart-like view of the game before you even select the replay. Right now all you see is the players and the map. Why not show before you even loaded the game all the unit/building/resource/economy/apm stats like bwchart? Why not show you your overall player stats like average apm, # of games against each matchup, your most common builds, etc. like bwchart? + Ability to search for players/maps/races in your replay database. This is huge, as sorting through your named-only-after-date auto-save folder is a pain.
On February 25 2010 02:44 valleyatsc wrote: lol! go play the game! go play for free man! YOU PLAY FOR FREE and i cant play at all! so wait for fucking release with social complain Yes, let's wait for the release to make any changes, so everybody can suffer from it.......... Right.
The point of a beta is to improve the game. Fixing these issues would improve the game.
On February 25 2010 02:45 Piousflea wrote: I don't mind the lack of chat channels as long as they let us create private chatrooms and invite friends and "recently played" players. After all, Xbox Live does not have chat channels and it's a perfectly viable social network.
On the other hand, the lack of online replays is flabbergasting. Anyone who's played Halo 3 can tell you that replays are way more fun to watch together. It only lets you invite people on your f list. It does not let you create private persistent chat rooms, but you can create group conversations like on MSN - these are dissolved as soon as you log-off.
And no, saying "It worked for Xbox live" does not fly - it's still a huge omission, and a huge flaw. It's like, just because something flawed works, does not mean it's good, right?
I'm pretty sure the first ever Ford didn't have heating or AC, but if they were to release a new car today and said "Fuck it, ol T' (aka the first Ford from like 1908) didn't have no god damn AC and it did alright", people would be furious.
Especially when battle.net 1 has all these features ;/
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
agree 100% with OP
outstanding points.
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Good read, and i hope blizzard responds with adding lobby or something similar/better. I like lots of the new features, just see no points in removing all that was good in bnet 1.0
ps. maybe the new lobby or something, just wasnt rdy for beta?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 25 2010 03:02 cbpye wrote:Awesome, my website got quoted and linked! Pity I couldn't get in the beta to bitch about this myself.  I couldn't have said it better myself if I tried, nice to see you here
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 25 2010 03:24 Two_DoWn wrote: The other thing that I would like to see is the ranking of your opponent in the game loading screen. Sure the favored/not favored tracker at the bottom helps, but i think it would be fun to know exactly who you were facing, without having to ask. I agree completely, I'd really like to see the points @ the loading screen. I'd also like to see player names + player points at the replay loading screen. That way, if someone picked random you'd know. I thought this was a nice feature in WC3... Too bad they didn't keep it.
On February 25 2010 03:27 Dr.Frost wrote: @the original poster. I agree with everything. One thing though you CAN reply to a private msgs in. Game very simply. Press eneter to type and press tab to cycle through recent people you've communicated with. Anyone who has an open conversation with you while Your in a game can be responded to by just hitting the tab key after pressing enter to change the recipient. Nice to know! Can you tab to people you haven't recently talked to as well? Like if a new person comes online and you wanna say something? I guess I can try this later but 
On February 25 2010 03:51 RANDOMCL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 02:16 FrozenArbiter wrote:On February 25 2010 01:53 RANDOMCL wrote: Uh, yeah, I think it is common sense that chat channels will be implemented. I'm confused as to why this is such a big issue at the moment. Obviously, they aren't going to release a game without them. You realize, of course, that they said at Blizzcon that there would be no chat channels for the game at launch? Like, they said literally just that. I even linked to a post about it. . You make it sound like you're the only one following the game. Your post links to information saying that the traditional chat channels won't be there, but: "Because we have something much bigger planned, chat channels are messy". It is common sense that there is going to a way to mass communicate with people. Maybe it won't be called a "channel", but it is ridiculous to think they won't allow players to communicate with ease. You are going off what Blizzard says as fact, right? "You realize, of course, that they said at Blizzcon that there would be no chat channels for the game at launch?" So, you managed to take half of what they said, and misconstrue it. You are part of the reason people are getting so much false information. If such an article, loaded with misinformation, is allowed to be posted on the front page of the premier foreign SC site, what does that say? Just stop, breathe, and think. Blizzard has already promised an alternative. It is confirmed in your own post. Let me bold the relevant (to me) point for you: NOT AT LAUNCH
I'm sorry, but it's not acceptable to buy a game in 2010 and have its online service be inferior to a game released in 1998... Especially when the community has been basically screaming at them to include online replays and chat channels since they announced the game (actually that's not true, in 2007 there were topics about online replays and people said "lol of coures they are gonna be included, are you serious? hahaha", and there were no topics about not having chat channels because....... who the fuck would have even considered that?).
On February 25 2010 04:10 djWHEAT wrote: *CLAP* Not much that can be added. I really hope many of the missing features are due to this being a BETA. One of my biggest complaints is when I goto my friends list (under ladders) and say I want more information on "Player X"... when I click his/her name there's no logical way to go back. Which means you have to repeat the process all over again (similar to what you mentioned about a lack of whisper).
And what's with the gimped Friends List? How can it be that when I add someone it doesn't notify them that I'd like to add them. Yes! This is soooo annoying, I was trying to look at Raven's build orders used in his latest games (that's a nice feature btw, just go to profile->match history->click and you can see the first 5 minutes for each player), and everytime I had clicked one game... I had to repeat the process (click my ladder button, click raven's profile).
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Not really much else to say but that I agree completely. I kinda get the feeling that Blizzard became so utterly confident in their new features that they felt that they didn't need the basics anymore. Whatever the case, the fact that chat channels had flaws is no reason to remove it completely, and I'd much rather have flawed chat channels than no channels at all. Let's hope Blizzard realizes this before release.
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Very well said. I hope Blizzard lurks the TL forums and spots this one Information on TL SC2 section >>> battle.net SC2 forums. I hope they realize this xD
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Hello,
I just wanted to mention that reversing of the battle.net.dll over at http://botdev.org/doku.php has already revealed that there will be chat channels, and other social features, all available under the 'social' menu, which is currently disabled.
However, the OP's review is still 100% correct about the current state of battle.net, I just wouldn't get all worked up about it because those features will be there in the near future.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 25 2010 06:15 ToeJam wrote:Very well said. I hope Blizzard lurks the TL forums and spots this one  Information on TL SC2 section >>> battle.net SC2 forums. I hope they realize this xD They do! and they post here sometimes as well
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I actually say "gl hf" in game everytime now cause my NEEDS are not being met! Chat channel plz.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 25 2010 06:16 Zed03 wrote:Hello, I just wanted to mention that reversing of the battle.net.dll over at http://botdev.org/doku.php has already revealed that there will be chat channels, and other social features, all available under the 'social' menu, which is currently disabled. However, the OP's review is still 100% correct about the current state of battle.net, I just wouldn't get all worked up about it because those features will be there in the near future. Thank god. I guess that means they changed their mind about not having chat channels at release?
Is there anything about online replay watchability?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 25 2010 05:24 Ota Solgryn wrote:Wow, the OP is so negative towards blizzards ability, or will, to fix these issues, that it is ridiculous. They have pulled through on so many issues, why would they not do this on e.g. the missing global chat. I mean, do you really, really believe there won't be a global chat thing? Do you really believe blizzard are not currently working on it and that it has therefore not been released yet. Like they want you to be lonely. It is fine to discuss things that are missing and there are good points, but the OP is just so negative it takes away all focus from the issues at hand. This, basically: Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 05:13 funkiwi wrote: Read is ok ...
But all the features are in the first beta version not implemented ... Chatrooms are comming and I think the customt games will be better in the future ...
imo an useless news Maybe you could have read the disclaimer posted right at the beginning of the post?
Disclaimer: This post is going to be fairly critical, and so I want people to keep in mind that Battle.net 2.0 is currently in Beta, it's not just the game that is being tested. Many features are still locked or not fully available, so please keep that in mind.
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On February 25 2010 06:16 Zed03 wrote:Hello, I just wanted to mention that reversing of the battle.net.dll over at http://botdev.org/doku.php has already revealed that there will be chat channels, and other social features, all available under the 'social' menu, which is currently disabled. However, the OP's review is still 100% correct about the current state of battle.net, I just wouldn't get all worked up about it because those features will be there in the near future. what other social features, could you please tell us?
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As retarded as it is, I could live without channels, but getting on BW and watching reps with friends probably consumed as much time for me as playing games did. I remember starting to play some WC3 after playing BW and the single worst thing about it is when your friend tells you about this amazing or ridiculous win he did with some absurd strategy, having to have him MSN the replay to you. It's utterly retarded.
I don't understand why they didn't just use BW features as a baseline and work from there. There is a reason everyone who ever used it thinks bnet is amazing.
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Send this thread to Blizzard ;p
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I think there should be a stickied thread of features(or missing features that 'need' to be added) as a simple bullet pointed list so these problems don't lose the limelight.
The problem with all the problems is that threads where they are highlighted tend to go noticed for a few days or weeks then are completely forgotten about simply because they aren't sticked/updated and so certain things like the problems with WC3 which remained since its beta stayed as Blizzard didn't see enough repeat topics on the subject so didn't use any time to correct/fix said problem and we had to live with some of the said terrible omissions for years.
As much as I enjoy blizzard games look how terrible they get things sometimes and leave them like that for years(I quit WoW cos of the constant grinding boredom and lack dual PvE & PvP ease and only now are they properly working to correct that after so so many YEARS)
I don't want SC2 to suffer the same fate with a lack of polish.
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A few points: I agree there should be chat channels, etc, as long as they are not as "in your face" as they were in the original Battle.net. There's nothing like entering the game and immediately being bombarded by hundreds of people posting, cursing, and acting like internet trolls to turn a new player off of the experience. The more "single-player" esque Battle.net start screen is probably intentional, for this reason.
Also, I actually really like the custom game support. It's much, much, much better to have custom games organized under one heading than it is to have a million "DOTA ALLSTARS NO NOOBS!!!" panes clogging up the game list; perhaps some other relevent game-type information (like speed, difficulty, or whatever) might be in order, and more ways to categorize things under different headings...but I like the basic system a lot.
The issues you seem to have could (and will be) all be easily resolved with the addition of chat channels, more people to invite, and a whisper system, etc.
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Oh yeh with Dota type games which have multiple ingame options like :ar, sd, em, arem, sdem etc etc need an extra filter in the custom game list would be really useful i.e. a simple text field & option to show games with complete names etc and stuff.
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wow, couldn't agree more! +50000
Man I pray that blizzard reads this (and I don't pray)
Always connected my ass. Connected to the server maybe, but what about the actual community? (The real reason to connect to the server)
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Man this is a beta. You are not supposed to make friends in chat but to test the game. I am sure that the bnet on the final game will be slighty different.
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On February 25 2010 07:04 LuDwig- wrote: Man this is a beta. You are not supposed to make friends in chat but to test the game. I am sure that the bnet on the final game will be slighty different.
but you should also provide feedback... ie: an article like this on what they need to fix?
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How great wouldn't it be if B.net 2 was a mix of B.net and ICCup...
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Good stuff, i wanna really want those online replays back in there! and chat lobby is pretty basic, i cant imagine them not having something already in motion.
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Blizzard: 1. Please add chat channels 2. Please allow online replays to be multiplayer-capable
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I bet the lack of channel chat is due to the "concerned mothers" demographic. You mean my child can go online and get PROPOSITIONED BY A PAEDOPHILE???
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On February 25 2010 02:20 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 01:20 oberon wrote: Umm...race-picking wouldn't work. Let's say you pick ZvP, ZvT, TvZ. Your opponent picks ZvZ, PvT, PvP.
Now what?
--oberon You both default to your vs Random choice. So the ZvP ZvT TvZ guy probably is ZvP ZvT TvZ ZvR, the ZvZ, PvT, PvP guy probably is PvR. EDIT: What crate said, at the same time as me  Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 01:40 MrMoose wrote:On February 25 2010 01:05 FrozenArbiter wrote: But - and this is a big but - I like big buts. I'm glad someone noticed 
While this is "a solution", it's not great. You end up with ZvP -- a matchup the first person likes, but the second does not.
--oberon
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hmmmm..... I thought there was no channels only in the beta !!!!???!?!?
I could have sworn that I heard from the SC2 development team, that there is going to be channels or if you'd like to call them chat lobbies.
I would be really surprised and angry if there was no channels, but again I'd like someone to confirm 100% that there are not going to be channels.
Until than I take this post as a rumor.
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Go mouse over that greyed out button next to the ladder button in the top left. It says "social". Chat channels just aren't implemented yet.
The inability to view the ladders of anybody but yourself and your friends is a pain though.
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Seriously, someone post this on the StarCraft 2 Forums, if you cant do it on the Beta Forums atleast do it on the General ones
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Agree with everything you wrote really.
As for the matchmaking, it seems to do its job. I am disappointed that they didn't allow for the option to pick matchups (NOTE: I do not mean to pick your opponents race, I mean to pick YOUR race for each specific matchup - instead of picking T I could pick TvP, TvZ, PvT, TvR) but I wasn't expecting this to be available. This is one of the things I really wanted to see, it wouldn't have to be exactly like that but at least set a "Matchup preference" like you can do now with "Map preference" or some more detailed matchup preferences, I'd do anything to play less ZvZ's.
To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure what to think of the matchmaking system yet, people in Platinum sometimes gets in Bronze games and stuff. 1. The plat guy doesn't want that at all. 2. The Bronze guy most likely doesn't want that. Of course, this is probably just due to the current population in beta, there aren't that many games so the matchmaking service has to expand the search really far, so it's hard to judge that yet.
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Totally agree 100% about the major issues, primarily the chat channels. Sure it's the 'most connected' online service of all time, but then why do I feel like I'm COMPLETELY ALONE when I'm on there?
Hopefully that little greyed-out 'social' tab will contain the answer.
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No chat channels? No watching replays with other people? No /w command? Please fix, Blizzard...
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I personally like the divisions. 99% of us won't be worrying if we are #1 server wide...but jockeying for the top 8 in my division so I can't go to the big dance..I see that as a huge positive. If you wanna know how you stack up server wide, that's what the season tourneys are for.
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Sweden33719 Posts
There's no reason you can't have both...
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FA!!! amazing read, 100% agree on all points
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I couldn't agree more. It feels like bnet 2.0 has improved socially for those who allready have friends outside the game that play either sc2 or WoW. But what about making new friends on bnet? This will be close to impossible with Bnet being as it is now. Just imagine someone who is new at starcraft and has no friends playing it. He will feel like he's playing a single player game and possibly grow tired of it faster.
However awkward the chat functions (or lack there of) seems to be I have to say that it would all be forgiven if they could just allow for watching replays with others. I would even be willing to lose some of the good features in replays (like first person) if they could add the functionality of several people watching. I mean come on. Wc3 players were crying for this change 8 years earlier. Why did blizzard build the game engine without having this huge issue in mind? I understand it may be hard to alter the game at this point but why didn't they think of this before they started on the game engine? It should have been obvious to them at the time that it was what the players wanted. Just goes to show that blizzard aren't as connected with their RTS fans as they are with their precious WoW kids. Some of the changes people got in wow just by pure whining has forever altered that game. I wish they could listen to the masses here too.
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I made an account here simply to post that I agree on all points.
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Agree on ever point. I hope the outrage makes things happen at Blizzard or makes things happen faster if they are already on their way. These features are essential.
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Good article, I completely agree.
Hopefully its just a partial version of Bnet2.0 that they've released for beta. Because so far it has been very underwhelming, considering all these delays were for battle.net.
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Good text.
However, even without chat channels and online replays, i think the new Bnet is still one step foward.
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Haven't been able to read the whole thread, but I'm not particulary worried about these features not being in release, because of the huge stink that's being kicked up over them at the moment. If the battle.net 2.0 team has any sense, they'll address these pretty simple and basic issues over the next 5+ months of the beta.
That just leaves the question of why they were left out in the first place. I sense someone at blizzard is getting thrown under the bus by a coworker right about now.
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So a short summary of points is longer then I thought at first, maybe some points merge together
- Chat Channels
- Whisper Commands
- On-line Group Replay Viewing
- Simpler Logging In
- Off-line Messaging(or in-game mail'esqe system)
- Game Preferences Matchmaking (TvP, TvZ, etc)
- League Details
- Overall League Placement
- Replay Filters/Sort Columns
- Game Creator Name/Ping etc
- Switch Map in Private Games
- Password Protected Games
- 5 Second Countdown Timer
Some extra wish list type items from me at least:
- Ready Flag in Lobby
- Extra Filters Sort Columns for Custom Games (i.e. Dota -ar or -sd etc)
- Game Names
- Whisper Commands Auto-Friend-Name Completion (new)
- Boost Microphone Volume (amplify microphone volume)
- Microphone Background Noise Reduction
- Switch too Full-Screen Mode in Game Only
- Windowed Mode Minimal Hud (Msn style IM program UI Toggleable)
- Private Team Chat Leader (Hosts the voice chat)
- Shortcut Key Profiles
- Open League (Open to all player skills) - Might be superfluous
- League Details (Lengths, Promotion Details) - Will probably be revealed in time
- Mouse Position Saved in Replay
A lot of things merge together in places so it doesn't seem like a lot of work to be done over the course of beta, that is if most of it isn't already being worked on already. I'd say the 1st set as put in the article are quite essential and the 2nd of bullet points is just my own musings.
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Great article FA, really helps us w/o beta to get a stronger feel for what we're seeing a bit of on everyone's streams.
As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that really needs fixing at this point (since you've noted that channels look to be in for the final release) is viewing total standings and group replays. viewing standings seems like a relatively easy thing to put into the game, but group replays could be slightly more difficult...the only way it would really work is if you put a single obs in charge of the replay, for moving it around, inc/dec speed, going backwards/forwards in time on it...I could totally see it happening if you have one person controlling it but otherwise it'd be far too much of a mess to work well.
Oh, and more robust chat commands. Makes no sense that they'd take such a step back from -all- their previous efforts in this department, going back to D1. Something else that seems like an obvious easy fix.
Last point, I know there are a couple of places where I say something sounds easy to program in; I know it's not "easy", but let's be real here, these are not your typical basement programmers. One can only hope they're really paying attention to our feedback and not just game data for balancing :D
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what a nice topic. allways love your writtings man.
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On February 25 2010 09:23 FrontalMonkey wrote: but group replays could be slightly more difficult... .... .... Last point, I know there are a couple of places where I say something sounds easy to program in; I know it's not "easy", but let's be real here, these are not your typical basement programmers.
It is easy they simply must have not planned for it so shot themselves in the foot when they realised. The technical coding required to even hack a system onto it considering what is already in place would be extremely easy regardless of what you may hear about it being hard and stuff; even replay rewind is easy when you think about whats technically involved in describing the complete state of a game. Any competent programmer realises how hard and dirtily most games are stitched together and the effort that would be required to fix said issues/add features(some if not most wouldn't take more then minutes to a few hours worth of work from a single programmer).
The only thing I can conceive that could have made replays rewind addition so hard was there own anti-cheat coding being made to make it hard to cheat in normal games by trying to hack anything. But anything outside of game there is no excuse for ever, not just from Blizzard but by so many companies.
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On February 25 2010 05:28 lololol wrote:Oh my god, his eye is possessed. His facial expressions during one interview were really weird at some point. I can't stop thinking he was overhyping the new BN - so far I haven't hear him say anything I don't know since at least last summer. For me, like everyone else, taking away online replays and LAN can't be forgotten only because there is supposed to be something they didn't even let us glimpse on. Chatting and maybe voice chatting while playing single player is definitely cool and I love it but I hope that by calling this "always connected, interwoven experience" devs are just buying themselves more time to work on something really good.
@ FA - about whispering, this is a post I've just found in CharlieMurphy's thread:
On February 25 2010 07:14 Dr.Frost wrote: Tip: When you receive a private message while in a game (a whisper), instead of clicking the chat window and typing back, you can press 'Enter', then push 'Tab' to shift through different people you have talked to. It will switch through all chat, allied chat, and any private users you are charting with.
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The only problem I actually saw was the UMS game list lacking information.
Why don't we see what Blizzard is planning to do to replace chatrooms before we start complaining? We haven't even seen the alternative yet, and expecting everything to be included in Beta is a spoiled and entitled outlook.
The divisions seem like a good idea. Complaining about not being able to see your exact rank and the lack of race choosing is intense nitpicking and most people probably won't care.
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Agree on all points - and please add F2-F4 position hotkeys (hell, you could even use F1, move help to some other key)
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 25 2010 10:10 Stripe wrote: The only problem I actually saw was the UMS game list lacking information.
Online replays say hello?
Why don't we see what Blizzard is planning to do to replace chatrooms before we start complaining? We haven't even seen the alternative yet, and expecting everything to be included in Beta is a spoiled and entitled outlook.
I don't think it's spoiled, and I'm not expecting it to be in the beta. However, when you take the fact that they said (summer 2009) that bnet 2.0 wouldn't have chat channels at launch + the lack of them in the beta, I am entitled to worrying. As it turns out, from the people who've been hacking sc2, it seems they do have plans for chat channels after all. Also, please read the disclaimer - I clearly stated that this is a Beta and we still have a lot of locked features. I'm perfectly aware of this.
The divisions seem like a good idea. Complaining about not being able to see your exact rank and the lack of race choosing is intense nitpicking and most people probably won't care.
Intense nitpicking...? To not be able to see a simple ladder ranking? Surely you are kidding me -_-
Divisions are a great idea, but they are not mutually exclusive with an overall ladder ranking - you can EASILY have both! The divisions don't affect who you play at all - in fact, the majority of your games will be with people from other divisions.
And I even said that the race picking thing was a small detail that I wasn't really expecting anyway, but it's still not a nitpick - _ -
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i agree on everything and good read
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On February 25 2010 10:31 FrozenArbiter wrote: Online replays say hello?
Online replays doesn't really matter to me, but it seems like implementing them is a large technical hurdle. I wonder what's so hard about it. I guess people can always try to sync up the replays and then use vent or whisper each other as a work around if online replays aren't implemented.
Intense nitpicking...? To not be able to see a simple ladder ranking? Surely you are kidding me -_-
Divisions are a great idea, but they are not mutually exclusive with an overall ladder ranking - you can EASILY have both! The divisions don't affect who you play at all - in fact, the majority of your games will be with people from other divisions.
And I even said that the race picking thing was a small detail that I wasn't really expecting anyway, but it's still not a nitpick - _ -
My point is that these really minor don't really benefit or detriment BNET 2.0 significantly for most people. Maybe if they start to pile up though...
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Hah. My newest reason why Battle.net needs some work.
You can't use the word "came".
"Who did you come here with" "I *&# with my brother"
English Language 0 - Battle.Net Censoring 1
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
You cant use the word Transfer or trans either LOL
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United States24614 Posts
Gotta love how they go from one extreme to the other hahaha
edit: private chat should be less strict than public channels I guess (should they ever implement them).
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I'm bit of a loner and I never really used the chat much as it's just full of bored trolls, but it probably does seem pretty empty without a chat. :/
And that censoring makes me think of Korean mmorpgs... sounds terrible. lol
When creating a game it clearly shows creator and what not: http://starcraft2.com/features/misc/images/bnet/ss7.jpg
Or read the page: http://starcraft2.com/features/misc/battlenet.xml
As for browsing them that's a category list. It like puts the available games in folders, so by clicking "DoTa" you get list of all DoTa games etc. or that's how I've understood it?
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Needs some iCCup if you ask me =\ that's why you don't trust blizz making ladders T_T
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Great red this article. I enjoyed your insight on the new feature, be they available or not. More of that please!
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I think as far as world/region rankings go, they will do similar to WoW and have them available on SC2 Armory. Could be wrong though!
But yeah, doesn't make sense not to have them in game.
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As for the matchmaking, it seems to do its job. I am disappointed that they didn't allow for the option to pick matchups (NOTE: I do not mean to pick your opponents race, I mean to pick YOUR race for each specific matchup - instead of picking T I could pick TvP, TvZ, PvT, TvR) but I wasn't expecting this to be available.
u better think that through again... because if u would have spend at least 1sec thinking about it u would have recognized it isn't possible.
so u play PvT? oh this guy plays TvT but ZvP! and now?
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WTF, are you serious??
I am heavily disappointed by Blizzard. I think the omission of chat lobbies like in SC1 is a serious mistake - I know many people (including myself) that log on to Bnet as much to play games as to meet friends and have a chat. This social component is what makes players feel at home and integrated into a community - and it is so simple to implement from a technical viewpoint. I even know people that log on even when they cannot play.
The replay restriction to one person watching is the same. My friends and me regularly watch replays together, showing off own play, analyzing other people's play, etc. I even often watch the replay of one of my games together with my (random) opponent in order to discuss.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 25 2010 11:57 djWHEAT wrote: Hah. My newest reason why Battle.net needs some work.
You can't use the word "came".
"Who did you come here with" "I * with my brother"
English Language 0 - Battle.Net Censoring 1 Options -> Turn off mature word filter. I did this day 1, so I can only assume this is why I haven't noticed this.
Filters are fucking retarded, so I'm sooooo happy I accidently stumbled across this option early.
On February 25 2010 13:44 LordLastDay wrote:I'm bit of a loner and I never really used the chat much as it's just full of bored trolls, but it probably does seem pretty empty without a chat. :/ And that censoring makes me think of Korean mmorpgs... sounds terrible. lol When creating a game it clearly shows creator and what not: http://starcraft2.com/features/misc/images/bnet/ss7.jpgOr read the page: http://starcraft2.com/features/misc/battlenet.xmlAs for browsing them that's a category list. It like puts the available games in folders, so by clicking "DoTa" you get list of all DoTa games etc. or that's how I've understood it? No, it shows the author of the map, not the host of the game Sorry for the confusion of terms.
On February 25 2010 17:51 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:Show nested quote +As for the matchmaking, it seems to do its job. I am disappointed that they didn't allow for the option to pick matchups (NOTE: I do not mean to pick your opponents race, I mean to pick YOUR race for each specific matchup - instead of picking T I could pick TvP, TvZ, PvT, TvR) but I wasn't expecting this to be available. u better think that through again... because if u would have spend at least 1sec thinking about it u would have recognized it isn't possible. so u play PvT? oh this guy plays TvT but ZvP! and now? I have spent a lot of time thinking about it. If matchups are incompatible you set both to their Vs Random pick.
So: PvT PvZ TvP PvR vs ZvZ PvP PvT PvR = PvP
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On February 25 2010 09:15 Adeeler wrote:So a short summary of points is longer then I thought at first, maybe some points merge together - Chat Channels
- Whisper Commands
- On-line Group Replay Viewing
- Simpler Logging In
- Off-line Messaging(or in-game mail'esqe system)
- Game Preferences Matchmaking (TvP, TvZ, etc)
- League Details
- Overall League Placement
- Replay Filters/Sort Columns
- Game Creator Name/Ping etc
- Switch Map in Private Games
- Password Protected Games
- 5 Second Countdown Timer
Some extra wish list type items from me at least: - Ready Flag in Lobby
- Extra Filters Sort Columns for Custom Games (i.e. Dota -ar or -sd etc)
- Game Names
- Whisper Commands Auto-Friend-Name Completion (new)
- Boost Microphone Volume (amplify microphone volume)
- Microphone Background Noise Reduction
- Switch too Full-Screen Mode in Game Only
- Windowed Mode Minimal Hud (Msn style IM program UI Toggleable)
- Private Team Chat Leader (Hosts the voice chat)
- Shortcut Key Profiles
- Open League (Open to all player skills) - Might be superfluous
- League Details (Lengths, Promotion Details) - Will probably be revealed in time
- Mouse Position Saved in Replay
A lot of things merge together in places so it doesn't seem like a lot of work to be done over the course of beta, that is if most of it isn't already being worked on already. I'd say the 1st set as put in the article are quite essential and the 2nd of bullet points is just my own musings.
Good roundup, hopefully someone in power sees this.
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Canada9720 Posts
On February 25 2010 11:14 Stripe wrote:Online replays doesn't really matter to me, but it seems like implementing them is a large technical hurdle. I wonder what's so hard about it. I guess people can always try to sync up the replays and then use vent or whisper each other as a work around if online replays aren't implemented. Show nested quote + Intense nitpicking...? To not be able to see a simple ladder ranking? Surely you are kidding me -_-
Divisions are a great idea, but they are not mutually exclusive with an overall ladder ranking - you can EASILY have both! The divisions don't affect who you play at all - in fact, the majority of your games will be with people from other divisions.
And I even said that the race picking thing was a small detail that I wasn't really expecting anyway, but it's still not a nitpick - _ -
My point is that these really minor don't really benefit or detriment BNET 2.0 significantly for most people. Maybe if they start to pile up though... it's not a technical hurdle at all. BW had online replays -- and even if BW hadn't had that capability, assuming it's a technical hurdle without considering what's involved is a little silly. watching a replay with another person is no different than playing a game against one
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what a crap topic, i hated the channels in starcraft and i hated them in diablo 2, iam so glad when we finally can have a nice lobby like in age of empires, this would be so sexxxxyy. bnet always sucked.
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As long as you are able to watch replays online I think people will be happy, But in reality someone will come out with a program inorder to do that. Either that or a lot of people will get Skype
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 25 2010 22:09 oN_Silva wrote: what a crap topic, i hated the channels in starcraft and i hated them in diablo 2, iam so glad when we finally can have a nice lobby like in age of empires, this would be so sexxxxyy. bnet always sucked. What does the AoE lobby look like? I'm assuming you don't mean the old MSN zone crap but some newer Age of Empires (yeah, I haven't played AoE since the first one pretty much ;P).
And if you don't like chat channels, just don't use them?
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Chat Channels= Cant u guys read?? There ll be chat channels at release.
Whisper Commands= There ll be at realease
On-line Group Replay Viewing= There ll be but later
Simpler Logging In=Not gonna have, because they dont want to.....
Off-line Messaging(or in-game mail'esqe system)= How to send a offline message if the game is 100% online??/ There ll be ingame messanger system
Game Preferences Matchmaking (TvP, TvZ, etc)= U cant use this on ranked maches... and we ll now why.... U can choose in custom maches
League Details= There ll be at release.
Overall League Placement = Dont know, but there ll be final league tornament to see who is the best
Replay Filters/Sort Columns= dont know
Game Creator Name/Ping etc=dont know
Switch Map in Private Games=dont know
Password Protected Games= Sure there ll be some sort of it
5 Second Countdown Timer= Only good point.
It funny to analyse the game that is in beta, Because most of features isnt usable. If those things dont ship, u can complain, but now......
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Canada9720 Posts
On February 26 2010 00:09 lipebra wrote: Chat Channels= Cant u guys read?? There ll be chat channels at release.
Whisper Commands= There ll be at realease
On-line Group Replay Viewing= There ll be but later
Simpler Logging In=Not gonna have, because they dont want to.....
Off-line Messaging(or in-game mail'esqe system)= How to send a offline message if the game is 100% online??/ There ll be ingame messanger system
Game Preferences Matchmaking (TvP, TvZ, etc)= U cant use this on ranked maches... and we ll now why.... U can choose in custom maches
League Details= There ll be at release.
Overall League Placement = Dont know, but there ll be final league tornament to see who is the best
Replay Filters/Sort Columns= dont know
Game Creator Name/Ping etc=dont know
Switch Map in Private Games=dont know
Password Protected Games= Sure there ll be some sort of it
5 Second Countdown Timer= Only good point.
It funny to analyse the game that is in beta, Because most of features isnt usable. If those things dont ship, u can complain, but now......
the point of a beta is for the community to use it, analyze it, and give feedback.
thanks for trying, though
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I really hope they fix that:"Im all alone in this universe" feeling, hate it! But anyway thanks for the good reading.Its really intresting(imo) for us(me) who dont have the beta..yet.
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Alone in the universe: Thats one of two reasons I dumped WC3 after 4 online games. I am still sorry for the money I paid for it.
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Lack of the ability to whisper easily and lack of chat channels seems so damn retarded, that I dont even know what to say. What starcraft 2 needs an "iccup-like" system, where you are easily moved to a default channel, where you can meet your clanmates etc. In fact the ability to have 2 chat channels open at the same time is good.
I know why they dont want to implement it though. It results from the number of players. If few million people buy the game and say 500 thousand play at the same time on a server, implementing such a simple function as "whisper" probably requires few dedicated servers to keep track of the players. Even the problem of making an account name might be hard - since all the "cool" names will be quickly taken. Diablo2 has few layers of specially dedicated servers just to handle the lobbies and identifiing logged on players. One might think that this is a simple programming task - but with all the people joining/leaving/dropping it requires a lot of work. And probably some greedy CEO decided to cut it out of the game, because in diablo they had big problems to implement it.
If a game doesnt have a name and password, there is no requirement for few servers dealing with a game list. Wonder if they thought how can one join "new" games though - with the maps you dont have. There has to be a form of a list after all. Unless the maps need to be downloaded "off-line".
As for the "black screens" mentioned in the OP, they are not a bug, they are specially designed features - if you try to refresh the list too often, you get a 10 or 30 second ban, thus the blank screen (in starcraft) or communicate (in diablo2). This is designed to protect the servers from being killed by too many requests. And the servers, even in starcraft still have problems with coping with the sheer number of users.
The /stats command comes to my mind. If you go to europe and try it on some random player the command wont work like 50-80% of the time. They skipped it, because it was too hard to implement. And they skip many other things. But perhaps instead of skipping, they should use the old ideas, that maybe arent the best, but WORK and are SCALABLE! Iccup lags so much, because it has crappy servers AND poor design. Bnetd or w/e emulator is used by them, poorly handles big numbers of users. Blizzards solutions do it pretty well, but require much more resources + they required a lot of time to be created. Someone decided to cut conrers I think to spend a bit less cash. Maybe they should drop the idea of "social bnet" anyway; do they want to make anohter facebook, but for nerds?
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I am a software dev. Bnet 1.0 is 10 years old, and copes with the average of ~100,000 players online per server.
I do not think it would be a problem host much more - computing power has increased by a factor of 100 in the last ten years.
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On February 26 2010 02:41 Metaspace wrote: I am a software dev. Bnet 1.0 is 10 years old, and copes with the average of ~100,000 players online per server.
I do not think it would be a problem host much more - computing power has increased by a factor of 100 in the last ten years.
Yea, computing power is not a problem; but maintaining servers and developing sophisticated code to do the task requires big ammounts of resources. I suppose they dont want to use the current system at all. Not sure why, there are some bugs client side; not sure how it looks like server side.
edit: I also wonder how are the players supposed to meet for the tournaments. There are different timezones etc. I think playing vs people from own division might be hard in "real" circumstances.
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United States17042 Posts
Great writeup. Interesting that the new battle.net features havn't been covered at all though (I was trying to figure out how to use the microphone/what the limitations were for voice chat, but it dosen't seem to work too well).
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 26 2010 00:09 lipebra wrote: Chat Channels= Cant u guys read?? There ll be chat channels at release.
We only know this because someone hacked the game. Previously they had said there wouldn't be. Not my fault they changed their mind, but I'm glad they did.
Whisper Commands= There ll be at realease
Says who?
On-line Group Replay Viewing= There ll be but later
There MIGHT be later. Wc3 is 8 years later and still doesn't have it.
Simpler Logging In=Not gonna have, because they dont want to.....
OK here is how it works now: Enter email, click connect. Enter password, click connect.
I could just enter email AND password and click connect, it'd save me an entire screen.
Off-line Messaging(or in-game mail'esqe system)= How to send a offline message if the game is 100% online??/ There ll be ingame messanger system
Because I'm not going to be online 24/7? An offline message just means he can send something to me and I'll get it the next time I login.
Game Preferences Matchmaking (TvP, TvZ, etc)= U cant use this on ranked maches... and we ll now why.... U can choose in custom maches
No, you don't know what I'm even talking about. I'm not suggesting you pick your opponents race, I'm suggesting you select one race for each matchup you want to play. Opponent is zerg? Okay, I want to play Terran. Opponent is Protoss? Okay, I want to play Terran. Opponent is Terran? Okay, I want to play Protoss. Opponent is Random? Okay, I want to play Random. Opponent plays incomaptible matchups? I play my vs Random selection.
League Details= There ll be at release.
Yeah, I agree.
Overall League Placement = Dont know, but there ll be final league tornament to see who is the best
Yeah, but that's only fun at the end of the season ;/
Replay Filters/Sort Columns= dont know
Game Creator Name/Ping etc=dont know
Switch Map in Private Games=dont know
Password Protected Games= Sure there ll be some sort of it
5 Second Countdown Timer= Only good point.
It funny to analyse the game that is in beta, Because most of features isnt usable. If those things dont ship, u can complain, but now......
Lol. "Only good point".
There is no point in waiting for the full game to release and start complaining, that's like saying "Don't comment on balance!! Wait for the full game, this is just a beta!".... Yeah, a beta is meant for that. To give feedback.
@rerebanned:
As for the "black screens" mentioned in the OP, they are not a bug, they are specially designed features - if you try to refresh the list too often, you get a 10 or 30 second ban, thus the blank screen (in starcraft) or communicate (in diablo2). This is designed to protect the servers from being killed by too many requests. And the servers, even in starcraft still have problems with coping with the sheer number of users. Yeah, I remember the good old days before they created that... But I don't think it's working exactly like they intended. For instance, if you join a game, and it's then closed... there's a huge wait period (7 seconds) before you can see the list again. I don't think it's working like they had intended it to work.
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Germany2896 Posts
Somebody mentioned that you still can't easily play/chat with everybody? i.e. they still have several gateways. If this is true: Get rid of them. Gateways are one of the biggest anti-features SC has. I want to play with my friends. Be they European or American.
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Canada9720 Posts
especially since gateways are remnants of 10-year old servers' abilities to handle every bw player. i think blizzard could easily handle every sc2 player on earth together in one 'gateway' if they wanted to
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I have to disagree with FA's overall assessment while agreeing with a few of his points.
I say BNET 2.0 is 20 steps forward, 2 steps back.
It is currently the single best thing about SC2 right now. SC1 was absolutely horrible at helping me play against people I would have fun with. It was buggy, getting into games was hard and getting into the right games with people my level was nigh impossible. I also tried ICcup and still could not easily get into games that I would enjoy. This is probably true for >90% of the people who bought the game over the 11 years it has been out.
Now with SC2, every single game I play is SOOO fun. Way more fun than I ever had with SC1 and mostly because every game is against someone close to my level. I win ~50% of my games so I have many opportunities to improve since I am still losing some and yet it isn't a stomp fest.
This single fact has changed the entire game for me.
It is fast, sleek, does its job great.
Bnet 1 was ugly, slow to update, had no match making ability, no good way to measure one's skill.
All that being said, I do agree with most of what FA wants changed. Online replays should be there. Public Chat channels in general are dumb and ugly and just a place for people to talk about penises so I don't miss them. But I could perhaps see them as somewhat useful in organizing stuff although I have never seen it be useful in Bnet 1.0 personally. We should be able to see "overall ratings". That would be nice.
But to say that it is not as good as Bnet 1.0 is the grossest miscalculation I have ever heard. I say Bnet 2.0 even as it is right now (with obvious improvements lacking) is the single best thing about SC2.
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The reason your probably still having fun straight away is that everyone is pretty much at the same level as everyone is learning the game.
20 Steps forward? I see a good few steps forward but generally speaking its a quite underwhelming interface regardless of how much prettier it looks.
Someone mentioned a default chat channel of ppl in your division; I think this is an awesome idea. As well as being in multiple channels at the same time.
There are so many features i'm so sure will be missing in the release that would make this game the be-all end all for rts/game interfaces but as its known if they did that they wouldn't have anything to improve to keep there jobs for years to come.
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On February 26 2010 07:32 Adeeler wrote: The reason your probably still having fun straight away is that everyone is pretty much at the same level as everyone is learning the game.
I"m pretty sure I would not get anything out of playing Platinum players and they wouldn't get anything out if it either. And instead of having to go to ICcup and typing invite messages in channels with bots spamming advertisements and working for over 5 minutes to get a game started, only to be matched with a non-ideal opponent, I click 1 button and get a great game every time.
That is freaking amazing.
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On February 26 2010 07:37 Savio wrote:I click 1 button and get a great game every time.
That is freaking amazing.
That is possible in almost every current generation game. It certainly is not enough to call Bnet 2.0 twenty steps ahead. Blizzard is competing with other current games not Bnet 1.0.
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I wish they would make the chat-channel more IRC like, with many channels you can join/create, clans automatically getting a bot on their channel that you can customize at your leisure etc. etc.
Big YES to most things mentioned earlier, except maybe race picking which gets a huge NO from me.
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On February 26 2010 05:43 FrozenArbiter wrote: OK here is how it works now: Enter email, click connect. Enter password, click connect.
I could just enter email AND password and click connect, it'd save me an entire screen.
This probably has to do with the way battle.net now works-- you can have multiple accounts under one e-mail address (think different profiles for your family members/friends)
OR
It could be to select your game... don't know if they are still planning to release 3 games @ $60 a piece (?)
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 26 2010 07:25 Savio wrote: I have to disagree with FA's overall assessment while agreeing with a few of his points.
I say BNET 2.0 is 20 steps forward, 2 steps back.
It is currently the single best thing about SC2 right now. SC1 was absolutely horrible at helping me play against people I would have fun with. It was buggy, getting into games was hard and getting into the right games with people my level was nigh impossible. I also tried ICcup and still could not easily get into games that I would enjoy. This is probably true for >90% of the people who bought the game over the 11 years it has been out.
Now with SC2, every single game I play is SOOO fun. Way more fun than I ever had with SC1 and mostly because every game is against someone close to my level. I win ~50% of my games so I have many opportunities to improve since I am still losing some and yet it isn't a stomp fest.
This single fact has changed the entire game for me.
It is fast, sleek, does its job great.
Bnet 1 was ugly, slow to update, had no match making ability, no good way to measure one's skill.
All that being said, I do agree with most of what FA wants changed. Online replays should be there. Public Chat channels in general are dumb and ugly and just a place for people to talk about penises so I don't miss them. But I could perhaps see them as somewhat useful in organizing stuff although I have never seen it be useful in Bnet 1.0 personally. We should be able to see "overall ratings". That would be nice.
But to say that it is not as good as Bnet 1.0 is the grossest miscalculation I have ever heard. I say Bnet 2.0 even as it is right now (with obvious improvements lacking) is the single best thing about SC2. That's because you are comparing it to SC1 only, ignoring WC3. WC3 has automatch making, chat channels, a good whisper system (but no online replays).
Honestly, I'd rather use WC3s battle.net than the CURRENT Bnet 2.0. Is the AMM good? Yes, but WC3 had it, and it had channels etc as well. However, as I said, if they added these two things, yes, Bnet 2.0 would be an improvement.
On February 26 2010 10:38 DarK.DooM wrote: Guys this is only Beta... they purposely left many features of the new Battle.net locked. I thought that was obvious but after this post I can see that many players were not able to deduce that...
Already I can notice that theres less delay, voice-chat, a better friend's list, a better match-making system, a better ranking system (and a better display of it), and a much more convenient way of downloading maps and updates for games. Also, in case no one else noticed, its barely been a week since Beta started, the game won't be released before June so theres plenty of time for them to release new content and unlock features that they have not before then.
If anyone finds issues with current features that ARE available, you can always make a post on the official Battle.net StarCraft II Beta forums or issue feedback through the Beta itself. We are all fans of Blizzard, please show a little bit more faith in the company that has continued to bring us incredible games and content for the past 15 years. First line of this article;
Disclaimer: This post is going to be fairly critical, and so I want people to keep in mind that Battle.net 2.0 is currently in Beta, it's not just the game that is being tested. Many features are still locked or not fully available, so please keep that in mind.
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Norway28582 Posts
no chat rooms and no online replays is actually a great idea for the BETA. it forces people to actually play games all the time. this isn't supposed to be the full game, but a beta test.
if they don't implement them for the full game however then starcraft 2 will already be a far worse experience than brood war was, completely regardless of how good the game becomes.
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On February 26 2010 05:43 FrozenArbiter wrote:
No, you don't know what I'm even talking about. I'm not suggesting you pick your opponents race, I'm suggesting you select one race for each matchup you want to play. Opponent is zerg? Okay, I want to play Terran. Opponent is Protoss? Okay, I want to play Terran. Opponent is Terran? Okay, I want to play Protoss. Opponent is Random? Okay, I want to play Random. Opponent plays incomaptible matchups? I play my vs Random selection.
First time I think about this opportunity..and ..really that sounds so good, Blizzy has ever talked about this feature? Or is it just a wet dream?
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Good read, but I do take issue with this:
On February 25 2010 01:05 FrozenArbiter wrote: if nobody on my friends list is online I literally feel like I'm the last person on Battle.net.
Does it matter how you -feel- about it? You obviously aren't the last person on battle.net, Blizzard tells you how many people are online and playing every time you log in (At least it does with previous titles). And if nobody on your friends list is online, how does it help to have channels filled with spambots and people who are AFK? Those are people you (Or, at least I) don't care about, and being able to see their presence doesn't help my online gaming experience at all. With regard to chatting/communication, if none of the people on my friends list are online, then it really is like I'm the last person on Battle.net -- The last person that matters to me.
What's the problem, really? Nowhere to play the Triviabots now? No way for the Diablo 2 spambots to get your account name to spam you with their low, low prices? Using channels has been a miserable experience for the vast majority of Battle.net users. I don't miss them, nor do I want them back.
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Btw about WC3 online replay thing... I think Blizzard posted long time ago that it wont happen. I don't know why people are still talking about it.
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its cool to spend a lot of energy on peripheral things......like B.net 2.0......etc.....but isnt gameplay the only thing that is really important here?
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Melbourne5338 Posts
On February 26 2010 23:46 intrudor wrote: its cool to spend a lot of energy on peripheral things......like B.net 2.0......etc.....but isnt gameplay the only thing that is really important here?
I would be purchasing a whole package not just gameplay. I don't see why I can't expect peripheral things to be improved as well.
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On February 25 2010 01:40 Asta wrote:Great post FA. I couldn't understand if any of those things were left unfixed until release. Then again, Blizzard has a history of making incomprehensible decisions when it comes to community requests. That seems to have changed during the development of SC2 however, so as you said: to hope.  Regarding divisions I would like to add that the overall ranking is especially (only?) important for the absolute top. I guess if you are in the silver league it's really nicer than seeing you are ranked 32450th instead of 32550th. So maybe the idea is to have just one pro-division after beta which has all the top players. Other than that, I really can't understand why they would voluntarily make it difficult to see who is actually first or top3 or whatever. They should have made only one platinum division for now though. That's the system you will find in pretty much all other sports too. Can you imagine Premier League 1, Premier League 2 etc? Then again I've heard rumors about certain exotic sports where there are multiple 'conferences'... oOa edit: Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 01:20 oberon wrote: Umm...race-picking wouldn't work. Let's say you pick ZvP, ZvT, TvZ. Your opponent picks ZvZ, PvT, PvP.
Now what?
--oberon I think FA is talking about the automated match making. So if that happens the algorithm will just find another opponent.
The system is similar to the WC3 ladder. The only addition is the division system, which i think is a good idea and will really be more useful after the game is released. The qualifying platinum division players will be able to play in a "pro" ladder, and the top finalists of the pro ladder on each gateway get to play at Blizzcon or some other Blizzard event.
It's very similar to the WC3 pro ladder which has been going on for several years. But instead of taking the top 200 players of each gateway, they take the top 10 of each division.
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Also, i really enjoyed simple battle.net with chatrooms and games and a friends list. They would be crazy to not style it in they previous models of opening into a chatroom.
Anything beyond that is invasive and is very similar to Steam. They want to be able to track you for "marketing purposes" and sell games online. The "social network" is all monitoring for marketing.
It's a useless feature to the average user but makes them cash when they sell your info.
If they continue in this model what you ca expect is a product that is less enjoyable, stable, and slower than the original.
Hosting the servers for all the data they expect to collect costs way more money than the four active IRC (esque) servers they would have to run for chat.
Seems likely they will implement chat regardless beacuse so many people enjoy it.
edit:
Just to put it into an even broader perspective, it is, like Steam, a model to precipitate (no pun intended) the "cloud" system, invisioned by the "geniuses" of various computer companies. Data, programs, and files are stored and transferred between a mega-server and your "PC" or other wireless devices. I really don't know how this will help anything for the avverage user, but it sure makes monitoring people's activites easier.
I expect "Windows 8" to be the first product to begin implementing the "cloud" system into their operating system.
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I agree on all points except vsRace selection - this reminds me of players that like to switch races on the last second of countdown. But have you noticed the following in a recent Blizzcast? "Rob Simpson: One of the newest additions we're unveiling for beta is the Battle.net platform. The StarCraft II beta will mark the first time that testers will be given the opportunity to experience and enjoy what it has to offer. What are some of your favorite features in Battle.net and what other features can the community expect to utilize in the future? Dustin Browder: This is still an early version of what we're planning on for Battle.net for StarCraft II. This is really a beta focused on play balance and on testing server load. It's not something we're really focused on showing off Battle.net features. We really want players focused on the things that are important to us."
Let's hope this is true.
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On February 27 2010 00:39 pioneer8 wrote: Also, i really enjoyed simple battle.net with chatrooms and games and a friends list. They would be crazy to not style it in they previous models of opening into a chatroom.
Anything beyond that is invasive and is very similar to Steam. They want to be able to track you for "marketing purposes" and sell games online. The "social network" is all monitoring for marketing.
It's a useless feature to the average user but makes them cash when they sell your info.
If they continue in this model what you ca expect is a product that is less enjoyable, stable, and slower than the original.
Hosting the servers for all the data they expect to collect costs way more money than the four active IRC (esque) servers they would have to run for chat.
Seems likely they will implement chat regardless beacuse so many people enjoy it.
edit:
Just to put it into an even broader perspective, it is, like Steam, a model to precipitate (no pun intended) the "cloud" system, invisioned by the "geniuses" of various computer companies. Data, programs, and files are stored and transferred between a mega-server and your "PC" or other wireless devices. I really don't know how this will help anything for the avverage user, but it sure makes monitoring people's activites easier.
I expect "Windows 8" to be the first product to begin implementing the "cloud" system into their operating system.
Also, after researching things of this subject for a long time, i'm not surprised by the naming "coincidence" and the metaphorical relationship between Steam and Cloud. These things have great thought put into them, there is no coincidence.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 26 2010 18:53 ComradeDover wrote:Good read, but I do take issue with this: Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 01:05 FrozenArbiter wrote: if nobody on my friends list is online I literally feel like I'm the last person on Battle.net. Does it matter how you -feel- about it? You obviously aren't the last person on battle.net, Blizzard tells you how many people are online and playing every time you log in (At least it does with previous titles). And if nobody on your friends list is online, how does it help to have channels filled with spambots and people who are AFK? Those are people you (Or, at least I) don't care about, and being able to see their presence doesn't help my online gaming experience at all. With regard to chatting/communication, if none of the people on my friends list are online, then it really is like I'm the last person on Battle.net -- The last person that matters to me. What's the problem, really? Nowhere to play the Triviabots now? No way for the Diablo 2 spambots to get your account name to spam you with their low, low prices? Using channels has been a miserable experience for the vast majority of Battle.net users. I don't miss them, nor do I want them back. I've barely seen any spambots - I have no idea what game you used to play that had so many of them. I used to get about 1 spam message when entering one of the Brood War Kor-1 (2..3..4) channels, but that was it.
And yes, it does matter how I feel - feelings are important, and I'm sure Blizzard thinks so too. Also, let me given an example of why I miss channels: The other night, it was kind of late and the AMM couldn't find any games, so I thought - "hey, I'll go find a custom game... oh wait, there's no channel to look in...".
So I went to bed (or I dunno, I quit playing anyway).
And no, I'm not gonna play a random custom - that's completely pointless if I get a game vs someone in bronze division, complete waste of both our time.
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This is some seriously fucked up shit. So I can't even start a custom game with a specific name? I can't invite anyone to a custom game without adding them to my friends list? That's retarded... what was wrong with the simple name/password system in SC1 or the "name is the password" system in WC3?
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
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On February 25 2010 11:57 djWHEAT wrote: Hah. My newest reason why Battle.net needs some work.
You can't use the word "came".
"Who did you come here with" "I *&# with my brother"
English Language 0 - Battle.Net Censoring 1
On February 25 2010 12:13 Kennigit wrote: You cant use the word Transfer or trans either LOL You 2 realise there is an option to disable censorship right?
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On February 26 2010 09:51 StarMasterX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 07:37 Savio wrote:I click 1 button and get a great game every time.
That is freaking amazing. That is possible in almost every current generation game. It certainly is not enough to call Bnet 2.0 twenty steps ahead. Blizzard is competing with other current games not Bnet 1.0.
Actually the OP was specifically comparing Bnet 2.0 to Bnet 1.0.
EDIT: apparently he was comparing Bnet 2.0 to War3 Bnet.
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On February 26 2010 12:07 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 07:25 Savio wrote: I have to disagree with FA's overall assessment while agreeing with a few of his points.
I say BNET 2.0 is 20 steps forward, 2 steps back.
It is currently the single best thing about SC2 right now. SC1 was absolutely horrible at helping me play against people I would have fun with. It was buggy, getting into games was hard and getting into the right games with people my level was nigh impossible. I also tried ICcup and still could not easily get into games that I would enjoy. This is probably true for >90% of the people who bought the game over the 11 years it has been out.
Now with SC2, every single game I play is SOOO fun. Way more fun than I ever had with SC1 and mostly because every game is against someone close to my level. I win ~50% of my games so I have many opportunities to improve since I am still losing some and yet it isn't a stomp fest.
This single fact has changed the entire game for me.
It is fast, sleek, does its job great.
Bnet 1 was ugly, slow to update, had no match making ability, no good way to measure one's skill.
All that being said, I do agree with most of what FA wants changed. Online replays should be there. Public Chat channels in general are dumb and ugly and just a place for people to talk about penises so I don't miss them. But I could perhaps see them as somewhat useful in organizing stuff although I have never seen it be useful in Bnet 1.0 personally. We should be able to see "overall ratings". That would be nice.
But to say that it is not as good as Bnet 1.0 is the grossest miscalculation I have ever heard. I say Bnet 2.0 even as it is right now (with obvious improvements lacking) is the single best thing about SC2. That's because you are comparing it to SC1 only, ignoring WC3. WC3 has automatch making, chat channels, a good whisper system (but no online replays). Honestly, I'd rather use WC3s battle.net than the CURRENT Bnet 2.0. Is the AMM good? Yes, but WC3 had it, and it had channels etc as well. However, as I said, if they added these two things, yes, Bnet 2.0 would be an improvement.
I can live with that. As long as you are not saying that SC2 Bnet 2.0 is worse than SC1 Bnet. That would just be ridiculous.
Not a Warcraft fan anyway so I assumed we were only talking about Starcraft here.
EDIT: also to let see my perspective..since I never played War3, I literally did go straight from SCBW Bnet to SC2 Bnet 2.0. That is why I think Bnet 2.0 is so freaking amazing.
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On February 27 2010 00:39 pioneer8 wrote: Also, i really enjoyed simple battle.net with chatrooms and games and a friends list. They would be crazy to not style it in they previous models of opening into a chatroom.
Anything beyond that is invasive and is very similar to Steam. They want to be able to track you for "marketing purposes" and sell games online. The "social network" is all monitoring for marketing.
It's a useless feature to the average user but makes them cash when they sell your info.
If they continue in this model what you ca expect is a product that is less enjoyable, stable, and slower than the original.
Hosting the servers for all the data they expect to collect costs way more money than the four active IRC (esque) servers they would have to run for chat.
Seems likely they will implement chat regardless beacuse so many people enjoy it.
edit:
Just to put it into an even broader perspective, it is, like Steam, a model to precipitate (no pun intended) the "cloud" system, invisioned by the "geniuses" of various computer companies. Data, programs, and files are stored and transferred between a mega-server and your "PC" or other wireless devices. I really don't know how this will help anything for the avverage user, but it sure makes monitoring people's activites easier.
I expect "Windows 8" to be the first product to begin implementing the "cloud" system into their operating system.
I hear this arguement all the time in Chrome vs Firefox discussions, where people are so afraid google is going to steal their personal information and do something unspeakably horrible with it. What, exactly, is the big deal with monitoring activities? What do you have to hide? What is Blizzard going to do with your tranny porn folder? Replys like yours are ridiculous fear-mongering, and you don't even know what it is we're supposed to be afraid of, exactly.
On February 27 2010 01:03 pioneer8 wrote: Also, after researching things of this subject for a long time, i'm not surprised by the naming "coincidence" and the metaphorical relationship between Steam and Cloud. These things have great thought put into them, there is no coincidence.
Steam has been around longer than that. It actually gets its name from it's host company, Valve.
On February 27 2010 03:10 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 18:53 ComradeDover wrote:Good read, but I do take issue with this: On February 25 2010 01:05 FrozenArbiter wrote: if nobody on my friends list is online I literally feel like I'm the last person on Battle.net. Does it matter how you -feel- about it? You obviously aren't the last person on battle.net, Blizzard tells you how many people are online and playing every time you log in (At least it does with previous titles). And if nobody on your friends list is online, how does it help to have channels filled with spambots and people who are AFK? Those are people you (Or, at least I) don't care about, and being able to see their presence doesn't help my online gaming experience at all. With regard to chatting/communication, if none of the people on my friends list are online, then it really is like I'm the last person on Battle.net -- The last person that matters to me. What's the problem, really? Nowhere to play the Triviabots now? No way for the Diablo 2 spambots to get your account name to spam you with their low, low prices? Using channels has been a miserable experience for the vast majority of Battle.net users. I don't miss them, nor do I want them back. I've barely seen any spambots - I have no idea what game you used to play that had so many of them. I used to get about 1 spam message when entering one of the Brood War Kor-1 (2..3..4) channels, but that was it. And yes, it does matter how I feel - feelings are important, and I'm sure Blizzard thinks so too. Also, let me given an example of why I miss channels: The other night, it was kind of late and the AMM couldn't find any games, so I thought - "hey, I'll go find a custom game... oh wait, there's no channel to look in...". So I went to bed (or I dunno, I quit playing anyway). And no, I'm not gonna play a random custom - that's completely pointless if I get a game vs someone in bronze division, complete waste of both our time.
I guess it might not be so bad for Brood War, and I can't speak for the Korean channels, but in games newer than StarCraft (Diablo II, WarCraft III) with higher player counts, it's a genuine problem. Consider that even in a 12 year old game, you STILL get spammed for entering the common public channels. You can bet that StarCraft II won't be spared if channels are re-included.
How would channels help find you a custom game, anyway? Would you go to some super-secret club where other TL.neters hang out? If you're one of the lucky few to be a member of these prestigious channels, then channels are probably a boon to you, but the vast majority of Battle.net users aren't so fortunate. These unwashed masses are pretty much left with one option which you seem to consider yourself too good for, playing against randoms.
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On February 27 2010 09:03 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 00:39 pioneer8 wrote: Also, i really enjoyed simple battle.net with chatrooms and games and a friends list. They would be crazy to not style it in they previous models of opening into a chatroom.
Anything beyond that is invasive and is very similar to Steam. They want to be able to track you for "marketing purposes" and sell games online. The "social network" is all monitoring for marketing.
It's a useless feature to the average user but makes them cash when they sell your info.
If they continue in this model what you ca expect is a product that is less enjoyable, stable, and slower than the original.
Hosting the servers for all the data they expect to collect costs way more money than the four active IRC (esque) servers they would have to run for chat.
Seems likely they will implement chat regardless beacuse so many people enjoy it.
edit:
Just to put it into an even broader perspective, it is, like Steam, a model to precipitate (no pun intended) the "cloud" system, invisioned by the "geniuses" of various computer companies. Data, programs, and files are stored and transferred between a mega-server and your "PC" or other wireless devices. I really don't know how this will help anything for the avverage user, but it sure makes monitoring people's activites easier.
I expect "Windows 8" to be the first product to begin implementing the "cloud" system into their operating system. I hear this arguement all the time in Chrome vs Firefox discussions, where people are so afraid google is going to steal their personal information and do something unspeakably horrible with it. What, exactly, is the big deal with monitoring activities? What do you have to hide? What is Blizzard going to do with your tranny porn folder? Replys like yours are ridiculous fear-mongering, and you don't even know what it is we're supposed to be afraid of, exactly
Google -already- monitors and archives your searches and habits to adjust their Google ads to each user. "Do something unspeakably horrible with it?" I think i made it clear that their intent is to sell or use this information for profitable marketing purposes. Your archived search habits and information are already being sold to 3rd parties as we speak.
I have nothing to hide, but i do not want my personal data and habits being archived and sold for whatever reason, especially when it makes the product i want to buy less enjoyable.
On February 27 2010 09:03 ComradeDover wrote:. Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 01:03 pioneer8 wrote: Also, after researching things of this subject for a long time, i'm not surprised by the naming "coincidence" and the metaphorical relationship between Steam and Cloud. These things have great thought put into them, there is no coincidence. Steam has been around longer than that. It actually gets its name from it's host company, Valve. Given the similarities to the cloud system there is no doubt that Steam is a reference to their cloud. It is also a reference to their company's name.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I guess it might not be so bad for Brood War, and I can't speak for the Korean channels, but in games newer than StarCraft (Diablo II, WarCraft III) with higher player counts, it's a genuine problem. Consider that even in a 12 year old game, you STILL get spammed for entering the common public channels. You can bet that StarCraft II won't be spared if channels are re-included. Well, with the way the new battle.net works, wouldn't blizzard have a far easier time stopping spambots than in the past?
How would channels help find you a custom game, anyway? Would you go to some super-secret club where other TL.neters hang out? If you're one of the lucky few to be a member of these prestigious channels, then channels are probably a boon to you, but the vast majority of Battle.net users aren't so fortunate. These unwashed masses are pretty much left with one option which you seem to consider yourself too good for, playing against randoms. There have been many gaming channels throughout time: clan ~nohunter (or something like that, this is too old school for me to be honest) op ToT) clan -nc brood war kor-namomo (1v1 cannel) brood war kor-nexus (team game channel)
On US West, "the" gaming channel moved around, but there was always one.
You could also have channels based on ladder rank, so it would be easier to find a game. Plus, if all I want to do is play some 2v2, I don't need to find a great ally - just a basic Brood War Swe-1 type channel would be just fine for me ("hey, anyone want to 2v2?").
On February 27 2010 05:49 Savio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 12:07 FrozenArbiter wrote:On February 26 2010 07:25 Savio wrote: I have to disagree with FA's overall assessment while agreeing with a few of his points.
I say BNET 2.0 is 20 steps forward, 2 steps back.
It is currently the single best thing about SC2 right now. SC1 was absolutely horrible at helping me play against people I would have fun with. It was buggy, getting into games was hard and getting into the right games with people my level was nigh impossible. I also tried ICcup and still could not easily get into games that I would enjoy. This is probably true for >90% of the people who bought the game over the 11 years it has been out.
Now with SC2, every single game I play is SOOO fun. Way more fun than I ever had with SC1 and mostly because every game is against someone close to my level. I win ~50% of my games so I have many opportunities to improve since I am still losing some and yet it isn't a stomp fest.
This single fact has changed the entire game for me.
It is fast, sleek, does its job great.
Bnet 1 was ugly, slow to update, had no match making ability, no good way to measure one's skill.
All that being said, I do agree with most of what FA wants changed. Online replays should be there. Public Chat channels in general are dumb and ugly and just a place for people to talk about penises so I don't miss them. But I could perhaps see them as somewhat useful in organizing stuff although I have never seen it be useful in Bnet 1.0 personally. We should be able to see "overall ratings". That would be nice.
But to say that it is not as good as Bnet 1.0 is the grossest miscalculation I have ever heard. I say Bnet 2.0 even as it is right now (with obvious improvements lacking) is the single best thing about SC2. That's because you are comparing it to SC1 only, ignoring WC3. WC3 has automatch making, chat channels, a good whisper system (but no online replays). Honestly, I'd rather use WC3s battle.net than the CURRENT Bnet 2.0. Is the AMM good? Yes, but WC3 had it, and it had channels etc as well. However, as I said, if they added these two things, yes, Bnet 2.0 would be an improvement. I can live with that. As long as you are not saying that SC2 Bnet 2.0 is worse than SC1 Bnet. That would just be ridiculous. Not a Warcraft fan anyway so I assumed we were only talking about Starcraft here. EDIT: also to let see my perspective..since I never played War3, I literally did go straight from SCBW Bnet to SC2 Bnet 2.0. That is why I think Bnet 2.0 is so freaking amazing. I think this is the big difference between us then - I am used to how wonderful auto-matchmaking is, having used it in WC3 and Dawn of War 2 beta (played a bunch of 2v2 WC3 last year, and the DoW2 beta).
The AMM is nice, but to me it's just as basic a feature as chat channels or online replays, which is why I'm disappointed that the latter two arent in the game yet.
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On February 27 2010 09:47 FrozenArbiter wrote: Well, with the way the new battle.net works, wouldn't blizzard have a far easier time stopping spambots than in the past?
Probably not.
On February 27 2010 09:47 FrozenArbiter wrote: There have been many gaming channels throughout time: clan ~nohunter (or something like that, this is too old school for me to be honest) op ToT) clan -nc brood war kor-namomo (1v1 cannel) brood war kor-nexus (team game channel)
Oh, don't get me wrong, I know such channels exist, but I don't know what they are currently, and most people don't know they exist at all. The channels being there doesn't help all the people who don't know about them, and if everyone knew about them, they would just become another USA-1 type channel. These channels function by being somewhat exclusive, that's what sheilds them from the rest of Battle.net
On February 27 2010 09:47 FrozenArbiter wrote: You could also have channels based on ladder rank, so it would be easier to find a game. Plus, if all I want to do is play some 2v2, I don't need to find a great ally - just a basic Brood War Swe-1 type channel would be just fine for me ("hey, anyone want to 2v2?").
I don't know how it is in Swe-1, but in USA-1, you won't get a response, and you'll quickly be drowned out by the chorus of spambots and triviabots, and if you choose to repeat yourself over and over until you do get a response, you'll just be written off as another bot yourself. If you have had success with channels in the past, then great! But make no mistake, your experience is definitely not typical.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I haven't played in Swe-1 for a long time, but back in the day it was active (2002-2003). Blizzard has made some weird change where you join a random swe-X channel tho, so the few players that are left are spread out across different channels when they join now, heh.
Anyway, I would rather have these private channels (really, I think almost everyone who read TL knew about op ToT), that's kinda public), than no channels at all.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
There's a darkened social option in the Beta, thus there WILL be channels, its just not activated yet. Stop panicing folks. =)
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On February 27 2010 16:51 iNfeRnaL wrote: There's a darkened social option in the Beta, thus there WILL be channels, its just not activated yet. Stop panicing folks. =)
ya ur right pat, CHANNELS are so important in starcraft. Like chatcraft is a part of the game. wow it took me a while to read thru this , really good read thanks
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On February 27 2010 10:04 FrozenArbiter wrote: Anyway, I would rather have these private channels (really, I think almost everyone who read TL knew about op ToT), that's kinda public), than no channels at all.
That's my point, though. Channels benefit the elite few who know about and utilize the private channels, and they're a detriment to everyone else. It's all well and good if "almost everyone" who reads TL knows about op ToT, but that's "almost everyone" of 1358 active members (Admittedly, I don't know what TL.net's definition of "active" is), compared to the 11,000,000 on b.net in total. In fact, that's how they function, by keeping the rest of the 10,998,642 out and away.
I guess you haven't walked the slums of bnet, so I'll be sure to take screenshots and post them with my next reply.
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Good read. And really glad they will make chatrooms in sc2. Well heres to improvements in sc2
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 27 2010 21:58 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 10:04 FrozenArbiter wrote: Anyway, I would rather have these private channels (really, I think almost everyone who read TL knew about op ToT), that's kinda public), than no channels at all. That's my point, though. Channels benefit the elite few who know about and utilize the private channels, and they're a detriment to everyone else. It's all well and good if "almost everyone" who reads TL knows about op ToT, but that's "almost everyone" of 1358 active members (Admittedly, I don't know what TL.net's definition of "active" is), compared to the 11,000,000 on b.net in total. In fact, that's how they function, by keeping the rest of the 10,998,642 out and away. I guess you haven't walked the slums of bnet, so I'll be sure to take screenshots and post them with my next reply. Active means logged in... I'm not sure how many members we total, but it's probably like 50 times that number or something lol (hard to say since there will be duplicate accounts - I don't have access to full statistics).
Also, there are literally thousands of private channels, and they work just fine for simply chatting with friends.
Finally, why do you talk about keeping people out? If they don't know about the channels, and only have access to some less than perfect ones... Why is that worse than not having any channels exactly? Hell, with no channels you don't even give them the chance to form private channels of their own.
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Great read thanks. I fully agree on the /w omission, it is really annoying
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imo very unproffesional post.. just stomping on things that are obvious it's nice to be very discerningly.. but this goes far beyond. Blizzard said that this is an EXTREMLY early version of Bnet 2.0, with no features activated. They only want this beta for Server testing and balance.. I wouldn't talk in a beta about technical things, better make a review about the game experience
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 02 2010 09:15 Daxten wrote: imo very unproffesional post.. just stomping on things that are obvious it's nice to be very discerningly.. but this goes far beyond. Blizzard said that this is an EXTREMLY early version of Bnet 2.0, with no features activated. They only want this beta for Server testing and balance.. I wouldn't talk in a beta about technical things, better make a review about the game experience So, your suggestion is to not complain about anything that bothers you until the full game is out? Isn't it better to complain now, and maybe Blizzard will notice something they didn't think was a problem?
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Well, it seems that most of the features mentioned in the OP as missing, are things they deliberately turned off for the Beta to make people play more.
Anyhow one of the features I have to defend. The removal of the name of the custom games will much improve the experience of trying to find random custom maps. Right now if you go on Bnet it's a pain finding the map you want and if you want to host a game yourself you have to use a variable number of "!"'s until you find something that isn't taken yet.
The only thing this will create a problem for is maps where you want to state the gamemode in the gamename.
However I agree that they'll need to improve the whispering/inviting system but since both features are working, it must be very trivial for them to just add a /whisper and /invite command so I'm quite confident that'll be fixed.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Anyhow one of the features I have to defend. The removal of the name of the custom games will much improve the experience of trying to find random custom maps. Right now if you go on Bnet it's a pain finding the map you want and if you want to host a game yourself you have to use a variable number of "!"'s until you find something that isn't taken yet. So, if I want to create a custom Lost Temple game to play some Terran vs Zerg, I'm gonna have to tell every person that joins to pick zerg or gtfo ? It just does not seem very smart.
You can still have sorting options by map and so on.
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So, if I want to create a custom Lost Temple game to play some Terran vs Zerg, I'm gonna have to tell every person that joins to pick zerg or gtfo ? It just does not seem very smart.
You can still have sorting options by map and so on.
That should definitely be one of the choose-able options. If you look at the screen shoot here it's obvious that "mode" column is very flexible and if we ask nicely in the suggestion forum having the races there doesn't sound like something hard to implement: http://www.starcraft2.com/features/misc/images/bnet/ss7.jpg
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I agree with everything you've said. I find it funny how you forgot to mention that you cant label your replays unless u alt tab and bring up the directory... for christs sake its ridiculous... im hopeful but i think im going to miss battle.net 1.0... and sc1 for that matter
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Sweden33719 Posts
You can, actually - go to the replays tab in the game, then choose "save". I'd like an option to name them right after the game tho, it would keep me from forgetting
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