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On May 08 2009 07:14 0cz3c wrote:
Malongo, here are my thoughts:
Quick question: Why are we voting for 3clipse when all we have are clues on him (and I feel one of them is hardly a clue)? The Ver voting I can understand, since, behaviorally, he's suspicious. In fact, he's third on my list. But 3clipse? We need to get two mafias today, and our evidence against JeeJee is extremely solid. This extreme bandwagoning is irrational. This apparent bandwagoning convinces me that we've lost this game already and mafia is just auto-lynching by vote now.
No. 3clipse is inactive and if I ever agreed on clues this would be it.
JeeJee is next in line tho, obv.
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Town is retarded.
Who started the whole double Mafia thing btw?
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Well, Ver.
You couldn't hide from me. I can't do anything with a Town like this tho 
gg, wp.
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I'm pointing my finger and laughing at RoL and Incognito and... a lot of other people...
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And Vivi and Showtime!... WTF people, WTF.
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So who hit Ace? Still Caller tried it, so I guess he deserves to be laughed at too.
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On May 08 2009 08:08 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 08:06 Ver wrote:On May 08 2009 08:02 Qatol wrote:
Excuse me... I only had 2 blues roleclaim to me. Vivi57 and Showtime! Both of these we pegged on behavior analysis beforehand anyway. Lucas and 3clipse figured out Pyrr's role from their billion PM's but we never got a direct roleclaim from anyone that we didn't already know. Oh and btw my absences were legit up until the last two days when I didn't need to post since it was game over. I did not want to be mafia since I knew I'd have very little time, but alas that was not to be the case. In addition the game started half a week earlier than it was originally planned to be. you liar you never miss to play when you are townie. I had you since day 2. no kidding read the thread. And the townies have to learn to play with less pms, thats only help for the mafia.
Ver's podium speech was screaming "Hello I'm Mafia, lynch me now!". And yet he survives until game end, iiinnnnnccrreddidbbbllleeee.
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Again, Town dies of inactivity. The end-game is critical, that's when all the roles are dead and the regular Joe Towny comes into play and can get together all the info and act upon in. We had 2 reds coming up for tonight, which meant a lot. We also had very good candidates for next night as well (L basically outed himself the second he made his defensive post), but Town can't win the end-game because being stacked so heavily with inactives.
I propose a very different system for whoever wants to host the next game: mandatory posts every day (or a disease will sweep through town, taking inactives, and some Mafia to balance the numbers if necessary), and maybe even leave the whole clue thing out of it.
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On a side-note, my style change worked purrfectly. Just enough suspicion to keep me alive all the way. I wonder what attitude I should choose for next game...
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"night 3 actions
Vivi rolechecks mynock"
Haha, I knew it! Incognito told me about me being checked and turning up green. Yet Vivi decides to not tell me anything about it, and instead tell it to Qatol. asdasfasf!
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On May 08 2009 08:50 LucasWoJ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 08:22 Mynock wrote:
(L basically outed himself the second he made his defensive post), . L outed himself because we had already coordinated the vote sway. It didn't matter what we did at that point.
Doesn't matter if the Town was active
20 vs 8, and next day (20 - kills) vs 6.
Inactivity strikes again.
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On May 08 2009 08:52 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 08:48 Mynock wrote:
On a side-note, my style change worked purrfectly. Just enough suspicion to keep me alive all the way. I wonder what attitude I should choose for next game... You only survived night 1 because showtime! told me he was NOT protecting you. Messed with my hit list so badly.
In that case it's smurfing time for next game.
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This should go into a separate thread, but I think we should try an all-roles game. And by that I don't necessarily mean that everyone should have a super-special-awesome role to be imba with, but that lots of people could have different win conditions.
I'm thinking of a lot of roles here, but mainly they would be inner stories that add to the character played by a certain player so it promotes communication, both inner and public.
For example:
Role: Good Twin.
Description: You are the good twin, and your brother has turned to the dark path and joined a mafia family. He is your evil twin, you have to find him, and persuade him to stop with his wicked ways. You have the ability "persuade", which you can use only once, and if you use it on the correct target (your evil twin), you will both leave the game (you win, your evil brother loses), if you use it on a wrong target, your ability will simply go to waste. You still win the game if Town wins. Every second night you will receive a little clue as to who your twin is.
Role: Evil Twin.
Description: You are the evil twin, and you have always despised your brother. You have to find him, and kill him. You better find him before he finds you. If he dies by a hit or lynch or any other means, you're safe from him, but your family still has to win the game for you to win. Every second night you will receive a little clue as to who your twin is.
Things like that, basically. A little lore to the game. An otherwise green inactive Townie will have an initiative to play the game and participate in a quest. An otherwise silent Mafia will have to get a bit public and try to find his twin. etc...
Obviously there's a lot of roles that can be made up, the key is of course balance, and keeping things interesting. If things are interesting, people are active.
Also, 2 (rivaling!) Mafia families seems good. More people with roles, more blues to balance it out, more activity...
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On May 09 2009 06:24 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Um that seems a little fancy and would get confusing. I guess that the Evil Twin thing could allow vets to live bit longer if the Evil Twin gets clues linking to newer players but ehh. And a lot of work for mod to keep track of all this but I would definitely play your game if you made one.
If I made a game, I'd make lots of lore for every character.
"You're an old granny living in an old house. You have an old gun hidden in your basement with which you will defend yourself. If a Mafia comes to kill you, you have a 25% chance to kill the Mafia with that gun and survive the attack."
Or:
"You're the Town's priest. During the course of the game you can choose to spend a night in the church. Not even the Mafia dares to touch you there, so you gain invincibility for that one night. Any hit on you will not go through, but you can not communicate with anybody during that night."
Etc... Basically, every single character would be a part of the Town and have a unique distinction. Nothing really fancy, but something to set them apart from the others.
Edit: obviously every Town needs a zombie...
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On May 09 2009 08:21 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2009 07:09 Mynock wrote:On May 09 2009 06:24 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Um that seems a little fancy and would get confusing. I guess that the Evil Twin thing could allow vets to live bit longer if the Evil Twin gets clues linking to newer players but ehh. And a lot of work for mod to keep track of all this but I would definitely play your game if you made one. If I made a game, I'd make lots of lore for every character. "You're an old granny living in an old house. You have an old gun hidden in your basement with which you will defend yourself. If a Mafia comes to kill you, you have a 25% chance to kill the Mafia with that gun and survive the attack." Or: "You're the Town's priest. During the course of the game you can choose to spend a night in the church. Not even the Mafia dares to touch you there, so you gain invincibility for that one night. Any hit on you will not go through, but you can not communicate with anybody during that night." Etc... Basically, every single character would be a part of the Town and have a unique distinction. Nothing really fancy, but something to set them apart from the others. Edit: obviously every Town needs a zombie... Yeah I don't think we need random chances deciding game and you can't enforce the no talking rule very well.
It's not about random chances, it's about Mafia thinking whether it's safe to hit somebody or not. It' about promoting activity on both sides. Crazy old woman being active to provide an undesirable target for Mafia, Mafia trying to avoid hitting such a target.
And we had silencer, you can enforce the no communication rule very easily. Don't think mechanics at this stage tho, it's just about the general ideas.
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On May 09 2009 23:13 0cz3c wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2009 22:10 Ace wrote:
yea like they said, even getting 2 protections right is pretty damn good. At least your instincts seemed to be in the right direction.
And as a general idea, we dont need a town circle to win. You just need to know how to roleclaim. This doesn't mean you see some guy you think is legit and give up your role - that's generally a bad idea. You have discussions or whatever, hopefully public, and when you are certain there is no way the person can be mafia then maybe you roleclaim.
As for balance, this game was balanced. The 2 Mafia would have eventually had to kill each other at some point but the game just ended because of how lopsided it was looking. If the town had managed to kill even 2 more mafia no one would be complaining about balance. From the Mafia point of view they somewhat have to work together if the town is on their shit or else they will both be wiped out. Ace is absolutely right. This game was perfectly balanced. Two things killed the town: its general inactivity and its nonsensical stupidity. You guys ignored very legitimate analysis and convictions until the very end (when it was far too late). I think if Ace had explained why Qatol was mafia, Qatol might have died earlier, but the fact that he lived as long as he did really speaks loudly about the town.
What? The game absolutely wasn't balanced. If BC didn't want to surprise us all with these 2 families, or at least told the Mafias from the get-go that they had to kill each other eventually, it would have been balanced. As it was tho, the Mafia took a very quick and tricky route: unite, and THEN ask BC if they have to kill each other (oops, too late for that now, we already know all the other mafia members, whatcha gonna do BC?). From there, BC had no choice anymore - if he says yes, Mafias break out a drama and end the game right there - BC can't have that. The other version is that of a lesser evil - let the Mafias unite and fuck the Town over, since Town won't find out about it anyway, until it's too late (and both Mafias and BC would just keep quiet about the whole incident). And that's what happened.
Not to say I wouldn't have exploited this hole the same if I was Mafia, but the kinda annoying part is that we didn't even know the rules we've been playing by. Town automatically assumed that the Mafias will have to work against each other eventually (so there shouldn't be that big of a coordination). The Mafias basically were watching it all, and knew it's not true, and no one ever said a thing. Not even BC. Not even at the very end, when we specifically asked it like 55 times. By that time I was only playing this game, because I was hoping Mafia will start killing each other soon. When that didn't happen on Night 4 either, it was way too obvious that we've been screwed over. The mass-voting couldn't have happened either if there basically wasn't a single Mafia with 2 godfathers.
As it stands, there is no winner of this round. There is only one loser, Town, and everyone who was playing with it.
Two Mafias is a good idea, and it can work very well, but really... Let all the players know what rules they're playing by before starting the game?
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On May 10 2009 05:19 Ver wrote:
Guys, Qatol roleclaimed to me since he was on the verge of quitting from getting lied to repeatedly about what was going on and killing a mafia member when he was told he couldn't. If I wasn't mafia (although he had good reasons for thinking I was) the game would've been over right then. Please don't make up some phony conspiracy theories of how the mafia played so tricky allying first when they weren't supposed to.
That's just what I said but it's phrased differently. The game would have ended right there, so BC patched things up so it isn't. Mafia went complaining to BC first, since they noticed it first, and got what they wanted. So you really think the game was meant to be played that way? Obviously not, since you disagree with BC's ways as well. BC should have made the two families completely separate, and actually that's what the Town always believed is the case. THE WHOLE GAME. EVERY goddamn lynch attempt was made with that in mind. This also goes to Qatol. You also used this misconception, and based all your defense on it. You knew the rules didn't work like that by then, because by that time BC told you the truth. Ver also knew, and he then came up with his own defense, which was ALSO based on how the two families would have to kill each other in the end. You were basically lying to the Town about the RULES of the game, even tho you guys were ready to throw it all when you felt that YOU were being lied to. Still, it's OK to deceive the Town in the same way, right?
Qatol, you're saying Town played poorly by not lynching a mafia earlier? Town partly left you in office for all that time, because it figured you will at least fight the other Mafia. BC was watching all that, and never ever decided that maybe Town should actually know what they're playing. Hell, there might have been a surprise third faction of Vampires, how would we know?
Yes, maybe BC lied to you guys for the first night, but he never told the truth to the Town for the WHOLE game. You had a slow start, Town was crippled from the beginning to the very end.
Lying about in-game stuff is OK (hell, that's what this game is about, deception), lying about the RULES of the game, when you, in fact, know better, is pretty dirty.
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On May 10 2009 05:44 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2009 05:31 Malongo wrote:
@Ver
All im saying is: after mafia A found mafia B there was no chance for the town. Just look at the numbers. The town should have played almost a perfect game to get a chance. You are completely wrong, sorry. If town played perfectly with qatol as mayor. mayor lynch- miss day 1- hit (vote double) day 2- vigi 2x hit, lynch 2x hit (vote double) day 3- lynch 2x hit (vote double) day 4- lynch 2x hit 9 mafia dead by day 4. Assuming perfect game with qatol as mayor. Considering bockit died by mafia hands that would've been game by day 4 (which is around when mafia had pretty much victory guaranteed). Obviously you don't need a perfect game to win or anything close. With 9 potential KP, even 2 hits would've worked out ok and you could've went into late game on reasonable footing. Mafia with 4 KP is very different than mafia with 6 KP. Double lynches, misused vigi hits. You guys had plenty of KP, just didn't use it since you had all the wrong targets and so much uncertainty. Blues didn't hide themselves well, etc. Arguing this is kinda ridiculous. BC even gave you guys more blues than he should've (extra dt and medic).
You're arguing about something completely different here.
Both Malongo and me said this many times now: The Town played sucky. It didn't deserve to win. That's not the issue here. And arguing about perfect games and perfect plays is also obviously nonsense.
My key point here is: The Town and Mafia played by a different set of rules. And YOU knew it.
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On May 11 2009 10:19 L wrote: Near perfect =/= perfect. Every lynch, area of discussion and pretty much every pm ring was under our control. Some things could have been better, but very few.
Just gotta love ego-tripping Mafias post-game . Usually the same people who just go AFK once they've found out they're green Townies.
I'd add another thing here to the Ace guide:
-Don't get into your character too much!
Just because you're Mafia, doesn't make you a ruthless killer in hiding. Just because you got Vigilante, doesn't mean you're Batman. The only reason you want to seem one way or the other to people, is because you INTEND to. Otherwise, try to play this game pretending you're a Townie. Even to yourself. People underestimate how their sense of a role is affecting their posting habits.
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EPT
