i still don't get why backlash can't be used tonight.

the way it is worded in the OP:
vets vote (cause). random mafia get lives (effect).

the practical application
8 vets voted (cause). Backlash is activated (night). Random mafia get lives (effect).

This takes place the next day. night is irrelevant because there are no night kills in the game anyway.

and stop threatening me with death rebirth lol

d_so

Korea (South)3262 Posts

March 01 2009 18:52 GMT

#522

-_- lots of ambiguously worded rules in this game.

1.) Mafia killing power, or even number of mafia. since neither the formula for this or the number is given to us, we just have to guess. this kind of throws a monkeywrench in our centralized list plan because we don't have a firm grasp of how many people are lying.

this is why i don't get our plan: this game is different from others because we don't have a firm number of roles, even for mafia. so yeah, in a sense our plan is kinda good because we have eight confirmed people. but that still leaves 52 people that can be lying-- this is in contrast to other games, where we can confirm claimed roles vs # of roles available, or even # of blues+greens vs # of reds

2.) backlash: Chuiu can you please explain wtf this does for vet votes. does mafia get to keep their extra lives forever?

Qatol

United States3165 Posts

March 01 2009 19:15 GMT

#523

On March 02 2009 03:52 d_so wrote:
-_- lots of ambiguously worded rules in this game.

1.) Mafia killing power, or even number of mafia. since neither the formula for this or the number is given to us, we just have to guess. this kind of throws a monkeywrench in our centralized list plan because we don't have a firm grasp of how many people are lying.

this is why i don't get our plan: this game is different from others because we don't have a firm number of roles, even for mafia. so yeah, in a sense our plan is kinda good because we have eight confirmed people. but that still leaves 52 people that can be lying-- this is in contrast to other games, where we can confirm claimed roles vs # of roles available, or even # of blues+greens vs # of reds

Here is one reason we have the plan oriented this way:
Look at the private eye abilities. They can rolecheck AND votecheck if they correctly guess the role of the target. This becomes easier if we have a roleclaim for everyone.

Here is another reason:
We can verify blue roleclaims if the player can't do what we ask them to. For example, let's say the mafia pretend to be a paramedic. If we assign a fake paramedic to protect someone, the mafia COULD decide not to hit that person, but then the protection worked for the cycle and the fake paramedic doesn't gain any trust. They could also decide to hit that person anyways, but then we oust a mafioso. Finally, they could hide a hit somewhere (making it look like they just double stacked hits on that target), but they're wasting KP (making that mafioso effectively a medic for the cycle anyway).

The mafia cannot 100% fake any role except townie. However, townies will also get the least trust and information out of the town circle unless they are verified via rolecheck/votecheck/medic save.

ahswtini

Northern Ireland22213 Posts

March 01 2009 19:32 GMT

#524

What if the person a medic is watching gets doubled or tripled, the person will have died, and the medic won't be able to do anything about it?

Qatol

United States3165 Posts

March 01 2009 19:35 GMT

#525

On March 02 2009 04:32 ahswtini wrote:
What if the person a medic is watching gets doubled or tripled, the person will have died, and the medic won't be able to do anything about it?

I covered that with the "hide a hit somewhere". Basically, it forces the mafia to waste KP overcoming medic protection. The medic doesn't get any extra trust, but if that hit is missing, then the medic doesn't lose any trust either. It just means that a hit was stopped, which is very useful to the town.

d_so

Korea (South)3262 Posts

March 01 2009 19:40 GMT

#526

well, i guess it's better than nothing. i mean i understand what you're saying qatol, and really, what you're saying is obvious. what i was questioning is the effectiveness of process of elimination in a situation where you don't know the exact count of the roles, or even how many mafia there are. veterans, because of the vet vote, you can confirm. others will be far more difficult.

but even though i dont like this plan, it's better than no plan i guess. i really think this game is going to come down to clue/behavioral analysis though, not heuristic list checking/etc.

dreamflower

United States312 Posts

March 01 2009 19:54 GMT

#527

Yeah, I think that's the way Mafia games should be; they should depend more on clue analysis and behavior observation. But hey, if you can get substantiating evidence from list checks and vote checks that you know are trustworthy, that'll make it even easier to catch Mafia. So, right now, I guess we're just finishing up on establishing a list of people that can be trusted.

Qatol

United States3165 Posts

March 01 2009 19:56 GMT

#528

On March 02 2009 04:40 d_so wrote:
well, i guess it's better than nothing. i mean i understand what you're saying qatol, and really, what you're saying is obvious. what i was questioning is the effectiveness of process of elimination in a situation where you don't know the exact count of the roles, or even how many mafia there are. veterans, because of the vet vote, you can confirm. others will be far more difficult.

but even though i dont like this plan, it's better than no plan i guess. i really think this game is going to come down to clue/behavioral analysis though, not heuristic list checking/etc.

Agreed. However, this is something we can do now when there isn't that much data to analyze (especially with the clues). Besides, this isn't really a process of elimination so much as a "let's force the mafia to make a stand on something and hope we get lucky and trap a few." Nobody can be confirmed unless they get rolechecked, cleared through a votecheck, medic saved, or they do something associated with their role that the mafia can't fake.

The strength of heuristic list checking might surprise you. Check out BC's mafia game if you don't believe me (just about every hit except Ver came off a heuristic list check).

Pyrrhuloxia

United States6700 Posts

March 01 2009 23:12 GMT

#529

Looks like about 5 hours and 40 min. till the end of day 1.

ulszz

Jamaica1787 Posts

March 01 2009 23:16 GMT

#530

whew that was a lot of reading..

i vote for inertinept and veteran sanctuary

Trezeguet

United States2656 Posts

March 02 2009 00:17 GMT

#531

Hope I get to see you all in the morning, goodnight!

Rice

United States1332 Posts

March 02 2009 00:55 GMT

#532

On March 01 2009 22:07 redtooth wrote:
Holy crap a lot happened while I was sleeping. 8 vets is a lot and would explain why Chuiu is keeping role counts hidden (to make it more interesting).

to blue_arrow: Don't worry about being lynched. I only voted for you to get a small-to-medium sized list on you so we can votelist check and you were the first name to pop into my mind.
to dyno: Is above plan ok? I also suggest we move whoever voted for malongo onto this list, too.
to rice: wtf are you doing. You have heat on you yet you don't send a PM to dyno. It's hard for me to imagine you being mafia because mafia aren't that stupid but you are slowly getting more and more suspicious.

One more thing: Did anybody else notice how Rice and blue_arrow shut up for the longest time and then suddenly posted within 5 minutes of each other (both first posts after the start of the game). Either this was a huge coincidence or they were mafia on irc planning posts and 'faking inactivity'.

uhhh I sent a PM to dyno ages ago, not sure what you're talking about

in fact, if you want to go back however many pages dyno's first post about PMing roles is, my name wont be on the list of people who haven't since roles yet I can guarantee that...