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On June 08 2024 20:43 AlphaZero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 20:39 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:36 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 20:34 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:18 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 08:38 Mocsta wrote:On June 08 2024 08:10 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 04:07 Trfel wrote:Having second thoughts about marvellosity. I think I do actually want to pursue this after all. On June 07 2024 22:27 marvellosity wrote:On June 07 2024 19:27 Trfel wrote:
[quote]Yeah idk. The more I think about this (plus his previous post where he says he doesn't like Vivax) the more I am suspicious.
If Kelsi3r doesn't know what AlphaZero's point about scott31337 means with regards to scott31337's alignment, that should lead to there being less reason to townread AlphaZero (and also anyone else) for this reasoning, no? Of course you don't always have to agree with someone's reasoning to think it makes them look towny, but it certainly helps. Furthermore, I could understand it better if he just said that it made AlphaZero look better, since they were the first to clearly lay out that line of thinking. But to add on that rsoultin looks good, purely for agreeing, when Kelsi3r himself doesn't even know if the point means anything for scott31337's alignment? Seems out of place.
And to add, the only person he said he didn't like, Vivax, also commented on this kind of idea. Vivax didn't put scott31337's posts in contrast like AlphaZero did, but he (rightfully) pointed out that one of scott31337's posts in question didn't make a ton of sense. It wasn't exactly the same idea, but it was somewhat similar, and this was (presumably) enough to make AlphaZero say that Vivax looks town. Kelsi3r seems to have ignored this entirely, however?
New top suspect, I think. I agree with this, the logic doesn’t track. On June 08 2024 01:18 marvellosity wrote:
I actually agreed with sand’s take on kelsier (sort of as a response to Scott here)
When I read mocstas vote on kelsier “you’re being intentionally obtuse”, I just thought well that’s a townie trait if ever I heard one So marvellosity agreed with me that Kelsi3r's logic didn't make sense, but then still includes Kelsi3r in the "town" category because Mocsta said he was being obtuse and that's a town trait? Reading through marvellosity's filter, I do still like that he acknowledged my point on Kelsi3r, and I like his line of questioning to Mocsta about his read change on me (Trfel). But he hasn't done really anything else of substance? It looks like his top suspects are scott31337 and Mocsta, and other than putting scott31337 at the bottom of his list post, he hasn't even mentioned him. Just feels uncharacteristically disjointed. I don't get the impression that he is looking for mafia, and I don't get the impression that he cares enough about his (few) thoughts to remember them later. I can talk about this. I bought into what sand was selling me. So that’s why Scott and kelsier were where they were. Mocsta I was/am suspicious of, still primarily because I think he was making it up when he talked about the posts you made. aawwwwww Mate. I probably shouldn't have posted my first post Game started at 10 for me and earliest chance I had to read was 4 sitting on plane In short hectic mad day and I was so excited to make intro post for first time.in maybe 6years.. I see the length of the game and was like wtf I dont have time.to do this before take.off and lose reception. Quickly skim and rsoultin and trfel.poats were the ones where my mind just disconnected from. Could not engage So put it out there to just have out it out there I wouldn't say the post content was forced because it's how I felt at that moment, although the sentiment that I needed to post something , yes was forced It's also part of why I retracted once I landed and read thoroughly This is his explanation for the stuff I picked up on with regards to your early posting. I understand that people make mistakes (especially early) but do I buy this? Is it the right sort of mistake? Is it the sort of mistake town makes? It’s not carelessness, it’s a characterisation of your posts as forced/contrived. It’s difficult tbh. Hmm, honestly I didn't view this as a mistake. Maybe that's my error. But a lot of people expressed a similar sentiment regarding my early posting, unless I am missing something I don't think his claim itself was unreasonable at all. There is the part where he wasn't able to back it up with evidence upon request. It's a little strange, heck I bet I could go into my filter and fabricate the explanation in question, but I actually think it's maybe more likely to come from town. Possibilities: - Mocsta is town, and due to a few combined factors (plane flight/setting change, me posting more and him getting a more meaningful read on me which quite possibly colors his perception of previous posts), didn't read the earlier posts the same way - Mocsta is mafia, and instead of forcing an explanation, gave it up. Like, if it was me and I was mafia there, I'm 10000% giving a forced explanation there, even if I can't remember what I was initially thinking I'm gonna make something up. I would never back down there. Maybe Mocsta is just a different player from me but I don't actually see the mafia motivation for this? The claim is too vague and easy to provide fake reasoning for, honestly if he's mafia I think he took a much harder route by backing down from it. He’s admitting it as a mistake Trfel lol. Wtf? To the bolded: who exactly? Raynpelikoneet, rsoultin, sandroba, maybe even AlphaZero? And sure, Mocsta said it was a mistake, but I disagree  I think it's more likely that his perspective changed, causing him to interpret the same posts in a different way. I mean if you want to call that a mistake then sure, I wouldn't say that though. Hmm. After this post I think you are biased/closed minded with this one (despite you seemingly wanting to consider other perspectives) Presuming you are town I think you should try to genuinely reset yourself and look at it from the other perspective. What?
Are you saying this because you think my statement is so incredibly unreasonable, or what?
Which part?
The first part, people ABSOLUTELY said my opening posts were off. Maybe they didn't characterize them exactly the same way but how can you say this isn't similar?
The second part, whether or not it's a mistake, is kinda irrelevant semantics. I mostly said it to be funny tbh, it just depends on what you consider a mistake to be, and it doesn't matter for the point.
The third part is imo a completely valid perspective, which I explained, but at least on this point there is room for disagreement.
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On June 08 2024 20:47 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 20:26 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:16 Oatsmaster wrote:On June 08 2024 20:08 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:05 Oatsmaster wrote:On June 08 2024 19:33 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 17:10 Mocsta wrote:
Hi trfel
.your post #715 on oats
I don't really get it
I had a read of oats filter and didn't see the same things you raised.
His filter is consistent focus and attitude/tone. He's kept prodding the same things regardless of buy in, which yes can be scummy. Yet. He's updating the read as the conviction increases which I find townie.
There was a post early game about you and Ryan that stuck out to me and made me wonder about a scum duo of rayn and oats but that's really clutching at straws and nothing I intend to pursue. Thanks for taking the time. I guess I didn't even see a ton of Oatsmaster bringing up the same things, I can try and look again though. @marvellosity, I think Mocsta is easier to read than several other players this game due to a combination of activity and unique thoughts. He's been present and involved and has been very willing to provide his own take, which often differs from that of everyone else and the thread consensus. I think this gives a lot of extra information with which we can figure out his alignment more easily. Also, someone asked about die_meatbaby's meta, I'm far from an expert but I would say her play matches my expectations close enough. That doesn't mean she is town or mafia necessarily, but this is the kind of play I was expecting. With the Vivax focus, paranoia of influential players, hesitance to commit to early reads, etc. Kinda confused about what these last 2-3 pages were about but I'm too lazy/sleepy to go to my computer and actually figure it out, oh well  Too lazy to visit the links Mocsta brought up about scott31337, can someone tell me if it makes sense or not? Happy to talk about most anything, but prefer to talk about Kelsi3r or Oatsmaster. Why do you think it’s good to talk about me when I’m clearly not a day 1 lynch? Is it not the exact same situation as alpha zero? One and a half differences. One difference: I brought legit reasons to talk about. Not random suspicions and paranoia and spookies. Half difference: not being able to figure out your alignment, especially having such a dramatically different take on it than everyone else does, is driving me insane. Your legit reasons are random spookiness to everyone else as you can see it hasn’t gained any traction. So again I ask, what’s the difference? Your main point was that alpha zero wasn’t a day 1 lynch so he shouldn’t be discussed No, no, that's not how this works. Reasons can be good or bad, random spookiness isn't a bad reason, it's no reason, it's fearmongering. I've said this like five times now. One more. I don't want to discuss someone if all of the following are true: 1. near a lynch deadline 2. the person in question is extremely unlikely to be lynched 3. there are no actual reasons presented to suspect the person. Note that this is very different from bad reasons. Once again, and for the last time, all three things have to be true. As you can see this with AlphaZero, I didn't want to discuss him when there were no reasons. As soon as Mocsta posted his reasons, I discussed it with him, and I would be happy to continue discussing based on those reasons. I don't get how this is so hard to understand? Damn 1-3 are all true for what you think about me. If 3 isn’t true then surely you can quote some posts that I made right? What the heck do you think this was?!?!!On June 08 2024 14:23 Trfel wrote:Sorry for getting frustrated earlier. I shouldn't try and play when I have company over. Again, I'm more than happy to talk about AlphaZero if anyone has any specifics to discuss. I don't want to just point fingers and suspicions for no reason, that doesn't help anyone. Either get serious and give actual reasons or wait until you have actual reasons, if discrediting people for no reason is commonly acceptable, the game becomes a mess. Maybe I'm blind but I haven't seen any substantial reasons to suspect AlphaZero posted so far.
OatsmasterShow nested quote +On June 08 2024 05:08 Oatsmaster wrote:
I think vivax is easily mafia here though, he’s playing super scared to make posts and has resorted to posting inane townreads Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 08:02 Oatsmaster wrote:On June 08 2024 07:45 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 07:39 AlphaZero wrote:On June 08 2024 07:32 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 06:38 AlphaZero wrote:
Oats and Sandro are top town.
Trfel is really worrying me. On the surface is very pro town, but also playing in a clearly different way to his prior games. I don’t really like his scum reads at all. I don’t level as if he is being that proactive in getting kelsier lynched, even though he apparently strongly suspects him.
And I find his reasoning for his scumreads much weaker than his other posts. I agree with a lot of his analysis but not when it comes to finding mafia…
I think his Smurf hunting made more sense logically than his scum reads which bothers me.
I wouldn’t lynch today, but if there is an active mafia hiding it’s this guy.
Scott just looks bad to me, completely forgettable, aside from his question that has already been analysed I couldn’t tell you why exactly. His scum hunting just comes across as manufactured,
Won’t lynch Marv today.
Rso has felt town by vibe.
Vivax I think is not consistently giving me good reasons to town read him
Rayn is being Rayn. Pretty much null.
Mocsta: looked better disengaging than when he was trying to do stuff. Don’t know what that means.
Kelsier: anyone with a strong opinion here is sus. Very null.
Rest need to post more or post more meaningful stuff. I guess I dunno what more I can do with Kelsi3r, people aren't super interested in lynching him, it is what it is. I mean I could definitely be wrong. But if he is mafia and gets through this it's not due to my lack of trying. I guess if he is town and doesn't change anything and survives that's also not due to my lack of trying But you get my point. Is your "won't lynch marvellosity" thing a town read thing or a waiting thing? It’s a “bad idea to try and lynch Marv day one thing” when he is playing the game and seems to be enjoying things. Fair, I understand that view. Not sure if I agree but I at least get it. I would definitely be very sad to lynch him, like I said, he's the funniest player so far. That's a pretty big motivator.
People seem to have strong opinions on sandroba and Vivax and I'm just not seeing it right now. (same with Oatsmaster but that's on me for being bad so I expect this, it doesn't worry me yet) Can anyone post or point me to a reasonable explanation of reading sandroba or Vivax? ? Vivax just randomly calling posts town you think is good? Also him bring afraid to post is good? Also him not constantly seeing shadows? Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 09:45 Oatsmaster wrote:
Vivax coming in and complaining about me is clsssic scum!vivax cmon.
The Scott stuff kinda boring, I get it but he’s not mafia These are the important posts I found in Oatsmaster's filter. The rest are mostly questions or random comments, basically things other than sharing his thoughts and pushing his reads. I realize this is subjective, so here is Oatsmaster's filter if you want to look for yourself. Honestly for having made 61 game posts, I'm pretty underwhelmed. He's had plenty of opportunity, and all he's come up with is this weird Vivax push. I'd like to break down his reasons for suspecting/pushing Vivax. 1. Vivax is scared to post (I'll reinterpret this as Vivax not being very active, it's hard for me to understand how you can interpret a lack of activity as mafia being scared to post) 2. Vivax has made silly townreads without reasoning to back them up 3. Vivax isn't constantly seeing shadows (I think this means he isn't being tinfoil-y?) 4. This post from Vivax is a classic mafia post: Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 08:20 Vivax wrote:On June 08 2024 08:02 Oatsmaster wrote:On June 08 2024 07:45 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 07:39 AlphaZero wrote:On June 08 2024 07:32 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 06:38 AlphaZero wrote:
Oats and Sandro are top town.
Trfel is really worrying me. On the surface is very pro town, but also playing in a clearly different way to his prior games. I don’t really like his scum reads at all. I don’t level as if he is being that proactive in getting kelsier lynched, even though he apparently strongly suspects him.
And I find his reasoning for his scumreads much weaker than his other posts. I agree with a lot of his analysis but not when it comes to finding mafia…
I think his Smurf hunting made more sense logically than his scum reads which bothers me.
I wouldn’t lynch today, but if there is an active mafia hiding it’s this guy.
Scott just looks bad to me, completely forgettable, aside from his question that has already been analysed I couldn’t tell you why exactly. His scum hunting just comes across as manufactured,
Won’t lynch Marv today.
Rso has felt town by vibe.
Vivax I think is not consistently giving me good reasons to town read him
Rayn is being Rayn. Pretty much null.
Mocsta: looked better disengaging than when he was trying to do stuff. Don’t know what that means.
Kelsier: anyone with a strong opinion here is sus. Very null.
Rest need to post more or post more meaningful stuff. I guess I dunno what more I can do with Kelsi3r, people aren't super interested in lynching him, it is what it is. I mean I could definitely be wrong. But if he is mafia and gets through this it's not due to my lack of trying. I guess if he is town and doesn't change anything and survives that's also not due to my lack of trying But you get my point. Is your "won't lynch marvellosity" thing a town read thing or a waiting thing? It’s a “bad idea to try and lynch Marv day one thing” when he is playing the game and seems to be enjoying things. Fair, I understand that view. Not sure if I agree but I at least get it. I would definitely be very sad to lynch him, like I said, he's the funniest player so far. That's a pretty big motivator.
People seem to have strong opinions on sandroba and Vivax and I'm just not seeing it right now. (same with Oatsmaster but that's on me for being bad so I expect this, it doesn't worry me yet) Can anyone post or point me to a reasonable explanation of reading sandroba or Vivax? ? Vivax just randomly calling posts town you think is good? Also him bring afraid to post is good? Also him not constantly seeing shadows? AZ calls you blanket top town too and it doesn‘t bother you. Doesn‘t surprise me you‘d miss that detail, so it‘s meh. Honestly I don't think these reasons are very good at all. 1. Vivax isn't very active. I don't think low activity means someone is mafia, this is very underwhelming. 2. Vivax made silly townreads without reason. It's common for people to make early townreads with little/no reasoning, and I think this is especially common for Vivax, actually. No clue why this is supposed to be suspicious. 3. Vivax isn't tinfoily. It's 27.5 hours in, there isn't much to be tinfoily about. That tends to happen more in longer games. 4. That post comes from mafia. I think Vivax is making a valid point in the post, I don't see why it is mafia motivated. So the main thing Oatsmaster has done this game is pretty baseless. You can make tonereads or vibe reads or whatever, but the substance in Oatsmaster's play just isn't there, despite plenty of opportunity.
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Cause now i have to try and convince someone objectively scummy =/= scum and thats exhausting
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On June 08 2024 20:47 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 19:46 AlphaZero wrote:On June 08 2024 19:15 Mocsta wrote:On June 08 2024 18:36 AlphaZero wrote:On June 08 2024 18:32 AlphaZero wrote:On June 08 2024 18:28 Mocsta wrote:On June 08 2024 18:23 AlphaZero wrote:
As far as I can see the argument for not lynching Scott is
- he is lynchbait in the past ((although trfel disproved that somewhat)
- alpha is scummy and is pushing a mislyynch
- ???
Doesn't really outweigh the substantively scummy things he has done. None of those apply to me Ignoring mason neighbour thing since he has since fully dropped it Rest of filter looks like active hunting to me I don't care he buddies to me. As town or Mafia it fits how the thread has shaped. I think he pulled up some interesting posts. He has no such limited cred can't start a wagon either so that's pretty much max output he can do as a townie. Would he do that as mafia? I genuinely don't think so. This post is sus- how can you just ignore the points against him? It's like you aren't trying to discern what that means for his alignment. Even Ignoring his opening, his case against me was objectively scummy- Then you call his scumhunting a strong point. It's mind boggling stuff. scott knows about mason, and is unsure about whisperer mechanic people are conflating that in my mind.. like. i personally dont care about mason/whisperer differences, yet i dont see why someone else cannot care.. yeah its a weird post for town. i have never denied that.. BUT its early game and its not like he stood by that as activity so i dont view it scummy as a filter i dont know what else to say p.s. sorry to absolutely cripple you in pain but this post makes me feel most positive about you; enough that i would take you out of my mayor lynch category and back into normal lynch. some used to refer to my town game as "moc-logic" and you just stumbled into it What about the post is meaningful for determining my alignment. What part can only come from mafia? its the heuristic about 'moc-logic'. i really dont expect you to get it cos of the history aspect. its ummm.. the utter confusion which you later articulate in your "case" on me, about too bad to be town, yet too bad to be mafia. in the past, only town have been willing to consider what it means, so its a noteworthy thing to mewhen you talk about what can only come from mafia, i'm going to assume you mean something i wrote in that response could only be from mafia? in that case, you are wrong by default. if i hazard a guess its that i took you from mayor lynch to normal lynch?
Right now. What do you think my alignment is?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On June 08 2024 20:52 rsoultin wrote:
Cause now i have to try and convince someone objectively scummy =/= scum and thats exhausting
This is why mafia is so difficult and fun though. It’s the crux of the game!
One of the personal joys I get as a townie is I’m a smart, logical person but in mafia that doesn’t necessarily translate into being right. Its tantalising!
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On June 08 2024 20:52 rsoultin wrote:
Cause now i have to try and convince someone objectively scummy =/= scum and thats exhausting
Yes yes, everyone knows that.
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On June 08 2024 20:47 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 20:39 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:36 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 20:34 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:18 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 08:38 Mocsta wrote:On June 08 2024 08:10 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 04:07 Trfel wrote:Having second thoughts about marvellosity. I think I do actually want to pursue this after all. On June 07 2024 22:27 marvellosity wrote:On June 07 2024 19:27 Trfel wrote:
[quote]Yeah idk. The more I think about this (plus his previous post where he says he doesn't like Vivax) the more I am suspicious.
If Kelsi3r doesn't know what AlphaZero's point about scott31337 means with regards to scott31337's alignment, that should lead to there being less reason to townread AlphaZero (and also anyone else) for this reasoning, no? Of course you don't always have to agree with someone's reasoning to think it makes them look towny, but it certainly helps. Furthermore, I could understand it better if he just said that it made AlphaZero look better, since they were the first to clearly lay out that line of thinking. But to add on that rsoultin looks good, purely for agreeing, when Kelsi3r himself doesn't even know if the point means anything for scott31337's alignment? Seems out of place.
And to add, the only person he said he didn't like, Vivax, also commented on this kind of idea. Vivax didn't put scott31337's posts in contrast like AlphaZero did, but he (rightfully) pointed out that one of scott31337's posts in question didn't make a ton of sense. It wasn't exactly the same idea, but it was somewhat similar, and this was (presumably) enough to make AlphaZero say that Vivax looks town. Kelsi3r seems to have ignored this entirely, however?
New top suspect, I think. I agree with this, the logic doesn’t track. On June 08 2024 01:18 marvellosity wrote:
I actually agreed with sand’s take on kelsier (sort of as a response to Scott here)
When I read mocstas vote on kelsier “you’re being intentionally obtuse”, I just thought well that’s a townie trait if ever I heard one So marvellosity agreed with me that Kelsi3r's logic didn't make sense, but then still includes Kelsi3r in the "town" category because Mocsta said he was being obtuse and that's a town trait? Reading through marvellosity's filter, I do still like that he acknowledged my point on Kelsi3r, and I like his line of questioning to Mocsta about his read change on me (Trfel). But he hasn't done really anything else of substance? It looks like his top suspects are scott31337 and Mocsta, and other than putting scott31337 at the bottom of his list post, he hasn't even mentioned him. Just feels uncharacteristically disjointed. I don't get the impression that he is looking for mafia, and I don't get the impression that he cares enough about his (few) thoughts to remember them later. I can talk about this. I bought into what sand was selling me. So that’s why Scott and kelsier were where they were. Mocsta I was/am suspicious of, still primarily because I think he was making it up when he talked about the posts you made. aawwwwww Mate. I probably shouldn't have posted my first post Game started at 10 for me and earliest chance I had to read was 4 sitting on plane In short hectic mad day and I was so excited to make intro post for first time.in maybe 6years.. I see the length of the game and was like wtf I dont have time.to do this before take.off and lose reception. Quickly skim and rsoultin and trfel.poats were the ones where my mind just disconnected from. Could not engage So put it out there to just have out it out there I wouldn't say the post content was forced because it's how I felt at that moment, although the sentiment that I needed to post something , yes was forced It's also part of why I retracted once I landed and read thoroughly This is his explanation for the stuff I picked up on with regards to your early posting. I understand that people make mistakes (especially early) but do I buy this? Is it the right sort of mistake? Is it the sort of mistake town makes? It’s not carelessness, it’s a characterisation of your posts as forced/contrived. It’s difficult tbh. Hmm, honestly I didn't view this as a mistake. Maybe that's my error. But a lot of people expressed a similar sentiment regarding my early posting, unless I am missing something I don't think his claim itself was unreasonable at all. There is the part where he wasn't able to back it up with evidence upon request. It's a little strange, heck I bet I could go into my filter and fabricate the explanation in question, but I actually think it's maybe more likely to come from town. Possibilities: - Mocsta is town, and due to a few combined factors (plane flight/setting change, me posting more and him getting a more meaningful read on me which quite possibly colors his perception of previous posts), didn't read the earlier posts the same way - Mocsta is mafia, and instead of forcing an explanation, gave it up. Like, if it was me and I was mafia there, I'm 10000% giving a forced explanation there, even if I can't remember what I was initially thinking I'm gonna make something up. I would never back down there. Maybe Mocsta is just a different player from me but I don't actually see the mafia motivation for this? The claim is too vague and easy to provide fake reasoning for, honestly if he's mafia I think he took a much harder route by backing down from it. He’s admitting it as a mistake Trfel lol. Wtf? To the bolded: who exactly? Raynpelikoneet, rsoultin, sandroba, maybe even AlphaZero? And sure, Mocsta said it was a mistake, but I disagree I think it's more likely that his perspective changed, causing him to interpret the same posts in a different way. I mean if you want to call that a mistake then sure, I wouldn't say that though. No no no. They did not say the same things. Commenting on your early posting is different from what/how they are commenting about. I guess even if they said different things, I interpreted the things people said to be coming from the same place/caused by the same things. Specifically, I was playing at a band concert and thus was on my phone and it was the start of the game and I was joking around and messing with people instead of actually playing the game. Eventually, I got home to my computer and there was more to talk about, and so this changed. People pointed out different things about the initial playstyle, but unless you can explain why some of those claims are more or less valid than others, I am not sure what you are getting at.
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On June 08 2024 20:51 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 20:47 Oatsmaster wrote:On June 08 2024 20:26 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:16 Oatsmaster wrote:On June 08 2024 20:08 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:05 Oatsmaster wrote:On June 08 2024 19:33 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 17:10 Mocsta wrote:
Hi trfel
.your post #715 on oats
I don't really get it
I had a read of oats filter and didn't see the same things you raised.
His filter is consistent focus and attitude/tone. He's kept prodding the same things regardless of buy in, which yes can be scummy. Yet. He's updating the read as the conviction increases which I find townie.
There was a post early game about you and Ryan that stuck out to me and made me wonder about a scum duo of rayn and oats but that's really clutching at straws and nothing I intend to pursue. Thanks for taking the time. I guess I didn't even see a ton of Oatsmaster bringing up the same things, I can try and look again though. @marvellosity, I think Mocsta is easier to read than several other players this game due to a combination of activity and unique thoughts. He's been present and involved and has been very willing to provide his own take, which often differs from that of everyone else and the thread consensus. I think this gives a lot of extra information with which we can figure out his alignment more easily. Also, someone asked about die_meatbaby's meta, I'm far from an expert but I would say her play matches my expectations close enough. That doesn't mean she is town or mafia necessarily, but this is the kind of play I was expecting. With the Vivax focus, paranoia of influential players, hesitance to commit to early reads, etc. Kinda confused about what these last 2-3 pages were about but I'm too lazy/sleepy to go to my computer and actually figure it out, oh well Too lazy to visit the links Mocsta brought up about scott31337, can someone tell me if it makes sense or not? Happy to talk about most anything, but prefer to talk about Kelsi3r or Oatsmaster. Why do you think it’s good to talk about me when I’m clearly not a day 1 lynch? Is it not the exact same situation as alpha zero? One and a half differences. One difference: I brought legit reasons to talk about. Not random suspicions and paranoia and spookies. Half difference: not being able to figure out your alignment, especially having such a dramatically different take on it than everyone else does, is driving me insane. Your legit reasons are random spookiness to everyone else as you can see it hasn’t gained any traction. So again I ask, what’s the difference? Your main point was that alpha zero wasn’t a day 1 lynch so he shouldn’t be discussed No, no, that's not how this works. Reasons can be good or bad, random spookiness isn't a bad reason, it's no reason, it's fearmongering. I've said this like five times now. One more. I don't want to discuss someone if all of the following are true: 1. near a lynch deadline 2. the person in question is extremely unlikely to be lynched 3. there are no actual reasons presented to suspect the person. Note that this is very different from bad reasons. Once again, and for the last time, all three things have to be true. As you can see this with AlphaZero, I didn't want to discuss him when there were no reasons. As soon as Mocsta posted his reasons, I discussed it with him, and I would be happy to continue discussing based on those reasons. I don't get how this is so hard to understand? Damn 1-3 are all true for what you think about me. If 3 isn’t true then surely you can quote some posts that I made right? What the heck do you think this was?!?!! Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 14:23 Trfel wrote:Sorry for getting frustrated earlier. I shouldn't try and play when I have company over. Again, I'm more than happy to talk about AlphaZero if anyone has any specifics to discuss. I don't want to just point fingers and suspicions for no reason, that doesn't help anyone. Either get serious and give actual reasons or wait until you have actual reasons, if discrediting people for no reason is commonly acceptable, the game becomes a mess. Maybe I'm blind but I haven't seen any substantial reasons to suspect AlphaZero posted so far.
OatsmasterOn June 08 2024 00:05 Oatsmaster wrote:
Vivax mafia On June 08 2024 05:08 Oatsmaster wrote:
I think vivax is easily mafia here though, he’s playing super scared to make posts and has resorted to posting inane townreads On June 08 2024 08:02 Oatsmaster wrote:On June 08 2024 07:45 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 07:39 AlphaZero wrote:On June 08 2024 07:32 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 06:38 AlphaZero wrote:
Oats and Sandro are top town.
Trfel is really worrying me. On the surface is very pro town, but also playing in a clearly different way to his prior games. I don’t really like his scum reads at all. I don’t level as if he is being that proactive in getting kelsier lynched, even though he apparently strongly suspects him.
And I find his reasoning for his scumreads much weaker than his other posts. I agree with a lot of his analysis but not when it comes to finding mafia…
I think his Smurf hunting made more sense logically than his scum reads which bothers me.
I wouldn’t lynch today, but if there is an active mafia hiding it’s this guy.
Scott just looks bad to me, completely forgettable, aside from his question that has already been analysed I couldn’t tell you why exactly. His scum hunting just comes across as manufactured,
Won’t lynch Marv today.
Rso has felt town by vibe.
Vivax I think is not consistently giving me good reasons to town read him
Rayn is being Rayn. Pretty much null.
Mocsta: looked better disengaging than when he was trying to do stuff. Don’t know what that means.
Kelsier: anyone with a strong opinion here is sus. Very null.
Rest need to post more or post more meaningful stuff. I guess I dunno what more I can do with Kelsi3r, people aren't super interested in lynching him, it is what it is. I mean I could definitely be wrong. But if he is mafia and gets through this it's not due to my lack of trying. I guess if he is town and doesn't change anything and survives that's also not due to my lack of trying But you get my point. Is your "won't lynch marvellosity" thing a town read thing or a waiting thing? It’s a “bad idea to try and lynch Marv day one thing” when he is playing the game and seems to be enjoying things. Fair, I understand that view. Not sure if I agree but I at least get it. I would definitely be very sad to lynch him, like I said, he's the funniest player so far. That's a pretty big motivator.
People seem to have strong opinions on sandroba and Vivax and I'm just not seeing it right now. (same with Oatsmaster but that's on me for being bad so I expect this, it doesn't worry me yet) Can anyone post or point me to a reasonable explanation of reading sandroba or Vivax? ? Vivax just randomly calling posts town you think is good? Also him bring afraid to post is good? Also him not constantly seeing shadows? On June 08 2024 09:45 Oatsmaster wrote:
Vivax coming in and complaining about me is clsssic scum!vivax cmon.
The Scott stuff kinda boring, I get it but he’s not mafia These are the important posts I found in Oatsmaster's filter. The rest are mostly questions or random comments, basically things other than sharing his thoughts and pushing his reads. I realize this is subjective, so here is Oatsmaster's filter if you want to look for yourself. Honestly for having made 61 game posts, I'm pretty underwhelmed. He's had plenty of opportunity, and all he's come up with is this weird Vivax push. I'd like to break down his reasons for suspecting/pushing Vivax. 1. Vivax is scared to post (I'll reinterpret this as Vivax not being very active, it's hard for me to understand how you can interpret a lack of activity as mafia being scared to post) 2. Vivax has made silly townreads without reasoning to back them up 3. Vivax isn't constantly seeing shadows (I think this means he isn't being tinfoil-y?) 4. This post from Vivax is a classic mafia post: On June 08 2024 08:20 Vivax wrote:On June 08 2024 08:02 Oatsmaster wrote:On June 08 2024 07:45 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 07:39 AlphaZero wrote:On June 08 2024 07:32 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 06:38 AlphaZero wrote:
Oats and Sandro are top town.
Trfel is really worrying me. On the surface is very pro town, but also playing in a clearly different way to his prior games. I don’t really like his scum reads at all. I don’t level as if he is being that proactive in getting kelsier lynched, even though he apparently strongly suspects him.
And I find his reasoning for his scumreads much weaker than his other posts. I agree with a lot of his analysis but not when it comes to finding mafia…
I think his Smurf hunting made more sense logically than his scum reads which bothers me.
I wouldn’t lynch today, but if there is an active mafia hiding it’s this guy.
Scott just looks bad to me, completely forgettable, aside from his question that has already been analysed I couldn’t tell you why exactly. His scum hunting just comes across as manufactured,
Won’t lynch Marv today.
Rso has felt town by vibe.
Vivax I think is not consistently giving me good reasons to town read him
Rayn is being Rayn. Pretty much null.
Mocsta: looked better disengaging than when he was trying to do stuff. Don’t know what that means.
Kelsier: anyone with a strong opinion here is sus. Very null.
Rest need to post more or post more meaningful stuff. I guess I dunno what more I can do with Kelsi3r, people aren't super interested in lynching him, it is what it is. I mean I could definitely be wrong. But if he is mafia and gets through this it's not due to my lack of trying. I guess if he is town and doesn't change anything and survives that's also not due to my lack of trying But you get my point. Is your "won't lynch marvellosity" thing a town read thing or a waiting thing? It’s a “bad idea to try and lynch Marv day one thing” when he is playing the game and seems to be enjoying things. Fair, I understand that view. Not sure if I agree but I at least get it. I would definitely be very sad to lynch him, like I said, he's the funniest player so far. That's a pretty big motivator.
People seem to have strong opinions on sandroba and Vivax and I'm just not seeing it right now. (same with Oatsmaster but that's on me for being bad so I expect this, it doesn't worry me yet) Can anyone post or point me to a reasonable explanation of reading sandroba or Vivax? ? Vivax just randomly calling posts town you think is good? Also him bring afraid to post is good? Also him not constantly seeing shadows? AZ calls you blanket top town too and it doesn‘t bother you. Doesn‘t surprise me you‘d miss that detail, so it‘s meh. Honestly I don't think these reasons are very good at all. 1. Vivax isn't very active. I don't think low activity means someone is mafia, this is very underwhelming. 2. Vivax made silly townreads without reason. It's common for people to make early townreads with little/no reasoning, and I think this is especially common for Vivax, actually. No clue why this is supposed to be suspicious. 3. Vivax isn't tinfoily. It's 27.5 hours in, there isn't much to be tinfoily about. That tends to happen more in longer games. 4. That post comes from mafia. I think Vivax is making a valid point in the post, I don't see why it is mafia motivated. So the main thing Oatsmaster has done this game is pretty baseless. You can make tonereads or vibe reads or whatever, but the substance in Oatsmaster's play just isn't there, despite plenty of opportunity.
You quoted my obviously good push on vivax that everyone else in the game liked congrats. What other things in my filter are underwhelming
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On June 08 2024 20:57 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 20:47 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 20:39 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:36 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 20:34 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:18 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 08:38 Mocsta wrote:On June 08 2024 08:10 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 04:07 Trfel wrote:Having second thoughts about marvellosity. I think I do actually want to pursue this after all. On June 07 2024 22:27 marvellosity wrote:
[quote]
I agree with this, the logic doesn’t track. On June 08 2024 01:18 marvellosity wrote:
I actually agreed with sand’s take on kelsier (sort of as a response to Scott here)
When I read mocstas vote on kelsier “you’re being intentionally obtuse”, I just thought well that’s a townie trait if ever I heard one So marvellosity agreed with me that Kelsi3r's logic didn't make sense, but then still includes Kelsi3r in the "town" category because Mocsta said he was being obtuse and that's a town trait? Reading through marvellosity's filter, I do still like that he acknowledged my point on Kelsi3r, and I like his line of questioning to Mocsta about his read change on me (Trfel). But he hasn't done really anything else of substance? It looks like his top suspects are scott31337 and Mocsta, and other than putting scott31337 at the bottom of his list post, he hasn't even mentioned him. Just feels uncharacteristically disjointed. I don't get the impression that he is looking for mafia, and I don't get the impression that he cares enough about his (few) thoughts to remember them later. I can talk about this. I bought into what sand was selling me. So that’s why Scott and kelsier were where they were. Mocsta I was/am suspicious of, still primarily because I think he was making it up when he talked about the posts you made. aawwwwww Mate. I probably shouldn't have posted my first post Game started at 10 for me and earliest chance I had to read was 4 sitting on plane In short hectic mad day and I was so excited to make intro post for first time.in maybe 6years.. I see the length of the game and was like wtf I dont have time.to do this before take.off and lose reception. Quickly skim and rsoultin and trfel.poats were the ones where my mind just disconnected from. Could not engage So put it out there to just have out it out there I wouldn't say the post content was forced because it's how I felt at that moment, although the sentiment that I needed to post something , yes was forced It's also part of why I retracted once I landed and read thoroughly This is his explanation for the stuff I picked up on with regards to your early posting. I understand that people make mistakes (especially early) but do I buy this? Is it the right sort of mistake? Is it the sort of mistake town makes? It’s not carelessness, it’s a characterisation of your posts as forced/contrived. It’s difficult tbh. Hmm, honestly I didn't view this as a mistake. Maybe that's my error. But a lot of people expressed a similar sentiment regarding my early posting, unless I am missing something I don't think his claim itself was unreasonable at all. There is the part where he wasn't able to back it up with evidence upon request. It's a little strange, heck I bet I could go into my filter and fabricate the explanation in question, but I actually think it's maybe more likely to come from town. Possibilities: - Mocsta is town, and due to a few combined factors (plane flight/setting change, me posting more and him getting a more meaningful read on me which quite possibly colors his perception of previous posts), didn't read the earlier posts the same way - Mocsta is mafia, and instead of forcing an explanation, gave it up. Like, if it was me and I was mafia there, I'm 10000% giving a forced explanation there, even if I can't remember what I was initially thinking I'm gonna make something up. I would never back down there. Maybe Mocsta is just a different player from me but I don't actually see the mafia motivation for this? The claim is too vague and easy to provide fake reasoning for, honestly if he's mafia I think he took a much harder route by backing down from it. He’s admitting it as a mistake Trfel lol. Wtf? To the bolded: who exactly? Raynpelikoneet, rsoultin, sandroba, maybe even AlphaZero? And sure, Mocsta said it was a mistake, but I disagree I think it's more likely that his perspective changed, causing him to interpret the same posts in a different way. I mean if you want to call that a mistake then sure, I wouldn't say that though. No no no. They did not say the same things. Commenting on your early posting is different from what/how they are commenting about. I guess even if they said different things, I interpreted the things people said to be coming from the same place/caused by the same things. Specifically, I was playing at a band concert and thus was on my phone and it was the start of the game and I was joking around and messing with people instead of actually playing the game. Eventually, I got home to my computer and there was more to talk about, and so this changed. People pointed out different things about the initial playstyle, but unless you can explain why some of those claims are more or less valid than others, I am not sure what you are getting at.
Even taking Mocsta out of the equation for a moment and talking generally
I dont grasp how you don’t understand the devil is in the detail? It matters in what way it is off, because it’s a mindset thing.
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last post before date night.. life with kids gotta priortise! rsoultin must understand surely!
On June 08 2024 19:56 AlphaZero wrote:
Couple of thoughts after Mocsta interactions
- it seems to me like he is drawing conclusions and then making really terrible justifications for them rather than acting with a curious and open mind to determine alignments i have accepted your interpretation, although disagree in particular about a closed mind. i reckon you are confirmation biased here, i mean, yes i have been firm on you up to past couple pages, yet, at least in my mind have been open about discussing points. disagreeing about a conclusion is not the same as close minded because without anything new introduced, why would the outcome change?
- it seems to me he is cautious and almost apologetic when pushing me, despite being his 2nd? Largest scum read. Tracks as mafia lynching town, not as town who thinks they have got a lead on mafia. i can understand my push on you is unusual. im pretty sure i would find it weird too. i'm very certain my pushes on you are all in response to people, again, i think thats significant. we made
'peace' yesterday and i wasn't intentionally trying to break it. im very certain oats was pushing for my az reasoning so i said fuck it
- his reasoning and justifications are awful and nonsensical. wont know until flips mate. although yes, im not an analytical player at the best of times so im ok with you stating this. doesnt make me mafia though unless its being used to push mafia agenda,, now this, i dont see you substantiate and again you would need flips to support.
the problem I am having is I do t know why he would play like this as either alignment.
- option 1 he is tying himself up into knots because he is pushing mafia agenda
-option 2 he is town and he legitimately thinks these things. i suppose one thing i  ON'T like here in option 1 is.. you dont call me mafia.. you say im pushing mafia agenda
ironicaly i didnt realise this when i wrote about mafia agenda above btw.. i still think the purpose of this post aligns with town piecing together puzzles so its not a negative for me. i think it more points out subconsciously you know option 2 is true, and just dont want to admit it outloud.. its ok mate. i went through the same with you
I view option 1 more likely through my lens of how the game should be played, and what is reasonable to expect from town and mafia.
It seems trfel thinks the other option would be more likely.
I’d just like to get some more thoughts itt about this. for the record im equally active as mafia and town. i have *never* been called up for 'moc-logic' as mafia, again, i cant expect you to acknowledge or recognise that.. i guess the only thing i can ask here is.. what is my tone saying across these posts to you and marv. internally i feel mentally the same responding start of day and now, so hopefully you see that too
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On June 08 2024 20:20 AlphaZero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 20:06 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:01 AlphaZero wrote:On June 08 2024 19:56 Trfel wrote:
AlphaZero, honestly I get the impression you are ignoring me. Which isn't the worst thing in the world, but I would at least like to clarify if it's because you think I am mafia or because you think I am not being productive or what. Honestly I’m not ignoring you intentionally. I’m reading and considering about your posts. I don’t really agree with some of your conclusions, but I don’t want to stop you from doing your thing, or get bogged down in arguing about it. Did I miss a question you asked me? I’m just using the little time I have to follow my own lines of inquiry. Fair enough. Also if you have limited time then by all means focus on what stands out to you. If your time wasn't limited I was wondering about your Oatsmaster read, since you seem very convinced he is town and as I described, it's hard for me to see that right now. Vibe and meta. Last game he was obvious mafia.Game before that was a massive outlier. And honestly I just like his posting. I can’t point to something and prove that he is town, But it just seemed really obvious to me at some point. Obviously that’s probably not helpful for your read on oats. But I’m certainly not the only player who feels that way about oats this game, so I guess maybe you could suspend disbelief for the rest of the phase? Sorry for taking so long to get to this, I do appreciate it. Just got busy doing other things and fell behind, had to switch to my computer to catch up.
I get that more people seem to townread Oatsmaster than otherwise. Oatsmaster's meta is the main reason I'm not voting for him right now. I can drop it for a while, sure, but you ought to be careful saying stuff like that, or Oatsmaster will attack you over it
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On June 08 2024 20:54 AlphaZero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 20:52 rsoultin wrote:
Cause now i have to try and convince someone objectively scummy =/= scum and thats exhausting Yes yes, everyone knows that.
Yet thats how i perceive your scott case
I also find it genuinely mindboggling how anyone is hard townreading sandy like you and marv are and yet i think you're town so pfft
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On June 08 2024 20:57 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 20:51 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:47 Oatsmaster wrote:On June 08 2024 20:26 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:16 Oatsmaster wrote:On June 08 2024 20:08 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:05 Oatsmaster wrote:On June 08 2024 19:33 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 17:10 Mocsta wrote:
Hi trfel
.your post #715 on oats
I don't really get it
I had a read of oats filter and didn't see the same things you raised.
His filter is consistent focus and attitude/tone. He's kept prodding the same things regardless of buy in, which yes can be scummy. Yet. He's updating the read as the conviction increases which I find townie.
There was a post early game about you and Ryan that stuck out to me and made me wonder about a scum duo of rayn and oats but that's really clutching at straws and nothing I intend to pursue. Thanks for taking the time. I guess I didn't even see a ton of Oatsmaster bringing up the same things, I can try and look again though. @marvellosity, I think Mocsta is easier to read than several other players this game due to a combination of activity and unique thoughts. He's been present and involved and has been very willing to provide his own take, which often differs from that of everyone else and the thread consensus. I think this gives a lot of extra information with which we can figure out his alignment more easily. Also, someone asked about die_meatbaby's meta, I'm far from an expert but I would say her play matches my expectations close enough. That doesn't mean she is town or mafia necessarily, but this is the kind of play I was expecting. With the Vivax focus, paranoia of influential players, hesitance to commit to early reads, etc. Kinda confused about what these last 2-3 pages were about but I'm too lazy/sleepy to go to my computer and actually figure it out, oh well Too lazy to visit the links Mocsta brought up about scott31337, can someone tell me if it makes sense or not? Happy to talk about most anything, but prefer to talk about Kelsi3r or Oatsmaster. Why do you think it’s good to talk about me when I’m clearly not a day 1 lynch? Is it not the exact same situation as alpha zero? One and a half differences. One difference: I brought legit reasons to talk about. Not random suspicions and paranoia and spookies. Half difference: not being able to figure out your alignment, especially having such a dramatically different take on it than everyone else does, is driving me insane. Your legit reasons are random spookiness to everyone else as you can see it hasn’t gained any traction. So again I ask, what’s the difference? Your main point was that alpha zero wasn’t a day 1 lynch so he shouldn’t be discussed No, no, that's not how this works. Reasons can be good or bad, random spookiness isn't a bad reason, it's no reason, it's fearmongering. I've said this like five times now. One more. I don't want to discuss someone if all of the following are true: 1. near a lynch deadline 2. the person in question is extremely unlikely to be lynched 3. there are no actual reasons presented to suspect the person. Note that this is very different from bad reasons. Once again, and for the last time, all three things have to be true. As you can see this with AlphaZero, I didn't want to discuss him when there were no reasons. As soon as Mocsta posted his reasons, I discussed it with him, and I would be happy to continue discussing based on those reasons. I don't get how this is so hard to understand? Damn 1-3 are all true for what you think about me. If 3 isn’t true then surely you can quote some posts that I made right? What the heck do you think this was?!?!! On June 08 2024 14:23 Trfel wrote:Sorry for getting frustrated earlier. I shouldn't try and play when I have company over. Again, I'm more than happy to talk about AlphaZero if anyone has any specifics to discuss. I don't want to just point fingers and suspicions for no reason, that doesn't help anyone. Either get serious and give actual reasons or wait until you have actual reasons, if discrediting people for no reason is commonly acceptable, the game becomes a mess. Maybe I'm blind but I haven't seen any substantial reasons to suspect AlphaZero posted so far.
OatsmasterOn June 08 2024 00:05 Oatsmaster wrote:
Vivax mafia On June 08 2024 05:08 Oatsmaster wrote:
I think vivax is easily mafia here though, he’s playing super scared to make posts and has resorted to posting inane townreads On June 08 2024 08:02 Oatsmaster wrote:On June 08 2024 07:45 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 07:39 AlphaZero wrote:On June 08 2024 07:32 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 06:38 AlphaZero wrote:
Oats and Sandro are top town.
Trfel is really worrying me. On the surface is very pro town, but also playing in a clearly different way to his prior games. I don’t really like his scum reads at all. I don’t level as if he is being that proactive in getting kelsier lynched, even though he apparently strongly suspects him.
And I find his reasoning for his scumreads much weaker than his other posts. I agree with a lot of his analysis but not when it comes to finding mafia…
I think his Smurf hunting made more sense logically than his scum reads which bothers me.
I wouldn’t lynch today, but if there is an active mafia hiding it’s this guy.
Scott just looks bad to me, completely forgettable, aside from his question that has already been analysed I couldn’t tell you why exactly. His scum hunting just comes across as manufactured,
Won’t lynch Marv today.
Rso has felt town by vibe.
Vivax I think is not consistently giving me good reasons to town read him
Rayn is being Rayn. Pretty much null.
Mocsta: looked better disengaging than when he was trying to do stuff. Don’t know what that means.
Kelsier: anyone with a strong opinion here is sus. Very null.
Rest need to post more or post more meaningful stuff. I guess I dunno what more I can do with Kelsi3r, people aren't super interested in lynching him, it is what it is. I mean I could definitely be wrong. But if he is mafia and gets through this it's not due to my lack of trying. I guess if he is town and doesn't change anything and survives that's also not due to my lack of trying But you get my point. Is your "won't lynch marvellosity" thing a town read thing or a waiting thing? It’s a “bad idea to try and lynch Marv day one thing” when he is playing the game and seems to be enjoying things. Fair, I understand that view. Not sure if I agree but I at least get it. I would definitely be very sad to lynch him, like I said, he's the funniest player so far. That's a pretty big motivator.
People seem to have strong opinions on sandroba and Vivax and I'm just not seeing it right now. (same with Oatsmaster but that's on me for being bad so I expect this, it doesn't worry me yet) Can anyone post or point me to a reasonable explanation of reading sandroba or Vivax? ? Vivax just randomly calling posts town you think is good? Also him bring afraid to post is good? Also him not constantly seeing shadows? On June 08 2024 09:45 Oatsmaster wrote:
Vivax coming in and complaining about me is clsssic scum!vivax cmon.
The Scott stuff kinda boring, I get it but he’s not mafia These are the important posts I found in Oatsmaster's filter. The rest are mostly questions or random comments, basically things other than sharing his thoughts and pushing his reads. I realize this is subjective, so here is Oatsmaster's filter if you want to look for yourself. Honestly for having made 61 game posts, I'm pretty underwhelmed. He's had plenty of opportunity, and all he's come up with is this weird Vivax push. I'd like to break down his reasons for suspecting/pushing Vivax. 1. Vivax is scared to post (I'll reinterpret this as Vivax not being very active, it's hard for me to understand how you can interpret a lack of activity as mafia being scared to post) 2. Vivax has made silly townreads without reasoning to back them up 3. Vivax isn't constantly seeing shadows (I think this means he isn't being tinfoil-y?) 4. This post from Vivax is a classic mafia post: On June 08 2024 08:20 Vivax wrote:On June 08 2024 08:02 Oatsmaster wrote:On June 08 2024 07:45 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 07:39 AlphaZero wrote:On June 08 2024 07:32 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 06:38 AlphaZero wrote:
Oats and Sandro are top town.
Trfel is really worrying me. On the surface is very pro town, but also playing in a clearly different way to his prior games. I don’t really like his scum reads at all. I don’t level as if he is being that proactive in getting kelsier lynched, even though he apparently strongly suspects him.
And I find his reasoning for his scumreads much weaker than his other posts. I agree with a lot of his analysis but not when it comes to finding mafia…
I think his Smurf hunting made more sense logically than his scum reads which bothers me.
I wouldn’t lynch today, but if there is an active mafia hiding it’s this guy.
Scott just looks bad to me, completely forgettable, aside from his question that has already been analysed I couldn’t tell you why exactly. His scum hunting just comes across as manufactured,
Won’t lynch Marv today.
Rso has felt town by vibe.
Vivax I think is not consistently giving me good reasons to town read him
Rayn is being Rayn. Pretty much null.
Mocsta: looked better disengaging than when he was trying to do stuff. Don’t know what that means.
Kelsier: anyone with a strong opinion here is sus. Very null.
Rest need to post more or post more meaningful stuff. I guess I dunno what more I can do with Kelsi3r, people aren't super interested in lynching him, it is what it is. I mean I could definitely be wrong. But if he is mafia and gets through this it's not due to my lack of trying. I guess if he is town and doesn't change anything and survives that's also not due to my lack of trying But you get my point. Is your "won't lynch marvellosity" thing a town read thing or a waiting thing? It’s a “bad idea to try and lynch Marv day one thing” when he is playing the game and seems to be enjoying things. Fair, I understand that view. Not sure if I agree but I at least get it. I would definitely be very sad to lynch him, like I said, he's the funniest player so far. That's a pretty big motivator.
People seem to have strong opinions on sandroba and Vivax and I'm just not seeing it right now. (same with Oatsmaster but that's on me for being bad so I expect this, it doesn't worry me yet) Can anyone post or point me to a reasonable explanation of reading sandroba or Vivax? ? Vivax just randomly calling posts town you think is good? Also him bring afraid to post is good? Also him not constantly seeing shadows? AZ calls you blanket top town too and it doesn‘t bother you. Doesn‘t surprise me you‘d miss that detail, so it‘s meh. Honestly I don't think these reasons are very good at all. 1. Vivax isn't very active. I don't think low activity means someone is mafia, this is very underwhelming. 2. Vivax made silly townreads without reason. It's common for people to make early townreads with little/no reasoning, and I think this is especially common for Vivax, actually. No clue why this is supposed to be suspicious. 3. Vivax isn't tinfoily. It's 27.5 hours in, there isn't much to be tinfoily about. That tends to happen more in longer games. 4. That post comes from mafia. I think Vivax is making a valid point in the post, I don't see why it is mafia motivated. So the main thing Oatsmaster has done this game is pretty baseless. You can make tonereads or vibe reads or whatever, but the substance in Oatsmaster's play just isn't there, despite plenty of opportunity. You quoted my obviously good push on vivax that everyone else in the game liked congrats. What other things in my filter are underwhelming I'm going to drop this for now because AlphaZero said to. If you have an issue with this, take it up with him.
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On June 08 2024 20:53 AlphaZero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 20:47 Mocsta wrote:On June 08 2024 19:46 AlphaZero wrote:On June 08 2024 19:15 Mocsta wrote:On June 08 2024 18:36 AlphaZero wrote:On June 08 2024 18:32 AlphaZero wrote:On June 08 2024 18:28 Mocsta wrote:On June 08 2024 18:23 AlphaZero wrote:
As far as I can see the argument for not lynching Scott is
- he is lynchbait in the past ((although trfel disproved that somewhat)
- alpha is scummy and is pushing a mislyynch
- ???
Doesn't really outweigh the substantively scummy things he has done. None of those apply to me Ignoring mason neighbour thing since he has since fully dropped it Rest of filter looks like active hunting to me I don't care he buddies to me. As town or Mafia it fits how the thread has shaped. I think he pulled up some interesting posts. He has no such limited cred can't start a wagon either so that's pretty much max output he can do as a townie. Would he do that as mafia? I genuinely don't think so. This post is sus- how can you just ignore the points against him? It's like you aren't trying to discern what that means for his alignment. Even Ignoring his opening, his case against me was objectively scummy- Then you call his scumhunting a strong point. It's mind boggling stuff. scott knows about mason, and is unsure about whisperer mechanic people are conflating that in my mind.. like. i personally dont care about mason/whisperer differences, yet i dont see why someone else cannot care.. yeah its a weird post for town. i have never denied that.. BUT its early game and its not like he stood by that as activity so i dont view it scummy as a filter i dont know what else to say p.s. sorry to absolutely cripple you in pain but this post makes me feel most positive about you; enough that i would take you out of my mayor lynch category and back into normal lynch. some used to refer to my town game as "moc-logic" and you just stumbled into it What about the post is meaningful for determining my alignment. What part can only come from mafia? its the heuristic about 'moc-logic'. i really dont expect you to get it cos of the history aspect. its ummm.. the utter confusion which you later articulate in your "case" on me, about too bad to be town, yet too bad to be mafia. in the past, only town have been willing to consider what it means, so its a noteworthy thing to mewhen you talk about what can only come from mafia, i'm going to assume you mean something i wrote in that response could only be from mafia? in that case, you are wrong by default. if i hazard a guess its that i took you from mayor lynch to normal lynch? Right now. What do you think my alignment is? i already said im getting townie vibes from past couple pages. like real collaboration buzz
you are off my shit list
.. kk.. good bye for real now
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On June 08 2024 21:00 Mocsta wrote:last post before date night.. life with kids gotta priortise! rsoultin must understand surely! Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 19:56 AlphaZero wrote:
Couple of thoughts after Mocsta interactions
- it seems to me like he is drawing conclusions and then making really terrible justifications for them rather than acting with a curious and open mind to determine alignments i have accepted your interpretation, although disagree in particular about a closed mind. i reckon you are confirmation biased here, i mean, yes i have been firm on you up to past couple pages, yet, at least in my mind have been open about discussing points. disagreeing about a conclusion is not the same as close minded because without anything new introduced, why would the outcome change? Show nested quote +- it seems to me he is cautious and almost apologetic when pushing me, despite being his 2nd? Largest scum read. Tracks as mafia lynching town, not as town who thinks they have got a lead on mafia. i can understand my push on you is unusual. im pretty sure i would find it weird too. i'm very certain my pushes on you are all in response to people, again, i think thats significant. we made 'peace' yesterday and i wasn't intentionally trying to break it. im very certain oats was pushing for my az reasoning so i said fuck it wont know until flips mate. although yes, im not an analytical player at the best of times so im ok with you stating this. doesnt make me mafia though unless its being used to push mafia agenda,, now this, i dont see you substantiate and again you would need flips to support. Show nested quote +the problem I am having is I do t know why he would play like this as either alignment.
- option 1 he is tying himself up into knots because he is pushing mafia agenda
-option 2 he is town and he legitimately thinks these things. i suppose one thing i ON'T like here in option 1 is.. you dont call me mafia.. you say im pushing mafia agenda ironicaly i didnt realise this when i wrote about mafia agenda above btw.. i still think the purpose of this post aligns with town piecing together puzzles so its not a negative for me. i think it more points out subconsciously you know option 2 is true, and just dont want to admit it outloud.. its ok mate. i went through the same with you Show nested quote +I view option 1 more likely through my lens of how the game should be played, and what is reasonable to expect from town and mafia.
It seems trfel thinks the other option would be more likely.
I’d just like to get some more thoughts itt about this. for the record im equally active as mafia and town. i have *never* been called up for 'moc-logic' as mafia, again, i cant expect you to acknowledge or recognise that.. i guess the only thing i can ask here is.. what is my tone saying across these posts to you and marv. internally i feel mentally the same responding start of day and now, so hopefully you see that too
Thanks Mocsta. This is a fair post. Smart if you’re mafia to make the subconscious point about option 2, but it has given me pause.
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I guess I maybe don’t want to lynch Mocsta today, it probably helps me that I’m happy on scott atm.
More from viv/sand/DMB/kelsier now please.
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On June 08 2024 20:59 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 20:57 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:47 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 20:39 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:36 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 20:34 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:18 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 08:38 Mocsta wrote:On June 08 2024 08:10 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 04:07 Trfel wrote:
Having second thoughts about marvellosity. I think I do actually want to pursue this after all.[quote][quote]So marvellosity agreed with me that Kelsi3r's logic didn't make sense, but then still includes Kelsi3r in the "town" category because Mocsta said he was being obtuse and that's a town trait?
Reading through marvellosity's filter, I do still like that he acknowledged my point on Kelsi3r, and I like his line of questioning to Mocsta about his read change on me (Trfel). But he hasn't done really anything else of substance? It looks like his top suspects are scott31337 and Mocsta, and other than putting scott31337 at the bottom of his list post, he hasn't even mentioned him.
Just feels uncharacteristically disjointed. I don't get the impression that he is looking for mafia, and I don't get the impression that he cares enough about his (few) thoughts to remember them later. I can talk about this. I bought into what sand was selling me. So that’s why Scott and kelsier were where they were. Mocsta I was/am suspicious of, still primarily because I think he was making it up when he talked about the posts you made. aawwwwww Mate. I probably shouldn't have posted my first post Game started at 10 for me and earliest chance I had to read was 4 sitting on plane In short hectic mad day and I was so excited to make intro post for first time.in maybe 6years.. I see the length of the game and was like wtf I dont have time.to do this before take.off and lose reception. Quickly skim and rsoultin and trfel.poats were the ones where my mind just disconnected from. Could not engage So put it out there to just have out it out there I wouldn't say the post content was forced because it's how I felt at that moment, although the sentiment that I needed to post something , yes was forced It's also part of why I retracted once I landed and read thoroughly This is his explanation for the stuff I picked up on with regards to your early posting. I understand that people make mistakes (especially early) but do I buy this? Is it the right sort of mistake? Is it the sort of mistake town makes? It’s not carelessness, it’s a characterisation of your posts as forced/contrived. It’s difficult tbh. Hmm, honestly I didn't view this as a mistake. Maybe that's my error. But a lot of people expressed a similar sentiment regarding my early posting, unless I am missing something I don't think his claim itself was unreasonable at all. There is the part where he wasn't able to back it up with evidence upon request. It's a little strange, heck I bet I could go into my filter and fabricate the explanation in question, but I actually think it's maybe more likely to come from town. Possibilities: - Mocsta is town, and due to a few combined factors (plane flight/setting change, me posting more and him getting a more meaningful read on me which quite possibly colors his perception of previous posts), didn't read the earlier posts the same way - Mocsta is mafia, and instead of forcing an explanation, gave it up. Like, if it was me and I was mafia there, I'm 10000% giving a forced explanation there, even if I can't remember what I was initially thinking I'm gonna make something up. I would never back down there. Maybe Mocsta is just a different player from me but I don't actually see the mafia motivation for this? The claim is too vague and easy to provide fake reasoning for, honestly if he's mafia I think he took a much harder route by backing down from it. He’s admitting it as a mistake Trfel lol. Wtf? To the bolded: who exactly? Raynpelikoneet, rsoultin, sandroba, maybe even AlphaZero? And sure, Mocsta said it was a mistake, but I disagree I think it's more likely that his perspective changed, causing him to interpret the same posts in a different way. I mean if you want to call that a mistake then sure, I wouldn't say that though. No no no. They did not say the same things. Commenting on your early posting is different from what/how they are commenting about. I guess even if they said different things, I interpreted the things people said to be coming from the same place/caused by the same things. Specifically, I was playing at a band concert and thus was on my phone and it was the start of the game and I was joking around and messing with people instead of actually playing the game. Eventually, I got home to my computer and there was more to talk about, and so this changed. People pointed out different things about the initial playstyle, but unless you can explain why some of those claims are more or less valid than others, I am not sure what you are getting at. Even taking Mocsta out of the equation for a moment and talking generally I dont grasp how you don’t understand the devil is in the detail? It matters in what way it is off, because it’s a mindset thing. Sure? I think it depends on the situation though, no? Like it's possible that there are things in the details that are off and maybe it means something, and it's possible that there aren't?
I'm sorry I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I just don't actually understand what you are getting at.On June 07 2024 17:05 Mocsta wrote:
Have skim read. Trfel stood out to me as sentiment over a few posts felt forced / overly processed. Not sure if that's his meta though. Certainly not a scum claim. Also felt a little similar with rsoultin. It seems that your point is that this post doesn't have basis?
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Tbf i think the scum in rso/rayn is a good read lolol but pushing rayn also sounds exhausting. \o/ fortunately i rarely see late game so someone else can do it
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On June 08 2024 21:08 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 20:59 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 20:57 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:47 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 20:39 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:36 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 20:34 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:18 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 08:38 Mocsta wrote:On June 08 2024 08:10 marvellosity wrote:
[quote]
I can talk about this.
I bought into what sand was selling me. So that’s why Scott and kelsier were where they were.
Mocsta I was/am suspicious of, still primarily because I think he was making it up when he talked about the posts you made. aawwwwww Mate. I probably shouldn't have posted my first post Game started at 10 for me and earliest chance I had to read was 4 sitting on plane In short hectic mad day and I was so excited to make intro post for first time.in maybe 6years.. I see the length of the game and was like wtf I dont have time.to do this before take.off and lose reception. Quickly skim and rsoultin and trfel.poats were the ones where my mind just disconnected from. Could not engage So put it out there to just have out it out there I wouldn't say the post content was forced because it's how I felt at that moment, although the sentiment that I needed to post something , yes was forced It's also part of why I retracted once I landed and read thoroughly This is his explanation for the stuff I picked up on with regards to your early posting. I understand that people make mistakes (especially early) but do I buy this? Is it the right sort of mistake? Is it the sort of mistake town makes? It’s not carelessness, it’s a characterisation of your posts as forced/contrived. It’s difficult tbh. Hmm, honestly I didn't view this as a mistake. Maybe that's my error. But a lot of people expressed a similar sentiment regarding my early posting, unless I am missing something I don't think his claim itself was unreasonable at all. There is the part where he wasn't able to back it up with evidence upon request. It's a little strange, heck I bet I could go into my filter and fabricate the explanation in question, but I actually think it's maybe more likely to come from town. Possibilities: - Mocsta is town, and due to a few combined factors (plane flight/setting change, me posting more and him getting a more meaningful read on me which quite possibly colors his perception of previous posts), didn't read the earlier posts the same way - Mocsta is mafia, and instead of forcing an explanation, gave it up. Like, if it was me and I was mafia there, I'm 10000% giving a forced explanation there, even if I can't remember what I was initially thinking I'm gonna make something up. I would never back down there. Maybe Mocsta is just a different player from me but I don't actually see the mafia motivation for this? The claim is too vague and easy to provide fake reasoning for, honestly if he's mafia I think he took a much harder route by backing down from it. He’s admitting it as a mistake Trfel lol. Wtf? To the bolded: who exactly? Raynpelikoneet, rsoultin, sandroba, maybe even AlphaZero? And sure, Mocsta said it was a mistake, but I disagree I think it's more likely that his perspective changed, causing him to interpret the same posts in a different way. I mean if you want to call that a mistake then sure, I wouldn't say that though. No no no. They did not say the same things. Commenting on your early posting is different from what/how they are commenting about. I guess even if they said different things, I interpreted the things people said to be coming from the same place/caused by the same things. Specifically, I was playing at a band concert and thus was on my phone and it was the start of the game and I was joking around and messing with people instead of actually playing the game. Eventually, I got home to my computer and there was more to talk about, and so this changed. People pointed out different things about the initial playstyle, but unless you can explain why some of those claims are more or less valid than others, I am not sure what you are getting at. Even taking Mocsta out of the equation for a moment and talking generally I dont grasp how you don’t understand the devil is in the detail? It matters in what way it is off, because it’s a mindset thing. Sure? I think it depends on the situation though, no? Like it's possible that there are things in the details that are off and maybe it means something, and it's possible that there aren't? I'm sorry I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I just don't actually understand what you are getting at. Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 17:05 Mocsta wrote:
Have skim read. Trfel stood out to me as sentiment over a few posts felt forced / overly processed. Not sure if that's his meta though. Certainly not a scum claim. Also felt a little similar with rsoultin. It seems that your point is that this post doesn't have basis?
Yes but let’s leave it for now.
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On June 08 2024 21:09 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 21:08 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:59 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 20:57 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:47 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 20:39 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:36 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 20:34 Trfel wrote:On June 08 2024 20:18 marvellosity wrote:On June 08 2024 08:38 Mocsta wrote:
[quote]aawwwwww
Mate. I probably shouldn't have posted my first post
Game started at 10 for me and earliest chance I had to read was 4 sitting on plane
In short hectic mad day and I was so excited to make intro post for first time.in maybe 6years.. I see the length of the game and was like wtf I dont have time.to do this before take.off and lose reception.
Quickly skim and rsoultin and trfel.poats were the ones where my mind just disconnected from. Could not engage
So put it out there to just have out it out there
I wouldn't say the post content was forced because it's how I felt at that moment, although the sentiment that I needed to post something , yes was forced
It's also part of why I retracted once I landed and read thoroughly
This is his explanation for the stuff I picked up on with regards to your early posting. I understand that people make mistakes (especially early) but do I buy this? Is it the right sort of mistake? Is it the sort of mistake town makes? It’s not carelessness, it’s a characterisation of your posts as forced/contrived. It’s difficult tbh. Hmm, honestly I didn't view this as a mistake. Maybe that's my error. But a lot of people expressed a similar sentiment regarding my early posting, unless I am missing something I don't think his claim itself was unreasonable at all. There is the part where he wasn't able to back it up with evidence upon request. It's a little strange, heck I bet I could go into my filter and fabricate the explanation in question, but I actually think it's maybe more likely to come from town. Possibilities: - Mocsta is town, and due to a few combined factors (plane flight/setting change, me posting more and him getting a more meaningful read on me which quite possibly colors his perception of previous posts), didn't read the earlier posts the same way - Mocsta is mafia, and instead of forcing an explanation, gave it up. Like, if it was me and I was mafia there, I'm 10000% giving a forced explanation there, even if I can't remember what I was initially thinking I'm gonna make something up. I would never back down there. Maybe Mocsta is just a different player from me but I don't actually see the mafia motivation for this? The claim is too vague and easy to provide fake reasoning for, honestly if he's mafia I think he took a much harder route by backing down from it. He’s admitting it as a mistake Trfel lol. Wtf? To the bolded: who exactly? Raynpelikoneet, rsoultin, sandroba, maybe even AlphaZero? And sure, Mocsta said it was a mistake, but I disagree I think it's more likely that his perspective changed, causing him to interpret the same posts in a different way. I mean if you want to call that a mistake then sure, I wouldn't say that though. No no no. They did not say the same things. Commenting on your early posting is different from what/how they are commenting about. I guess even if they said different things, I interpreted the things people said to be coming from the same place/caused by the same things. Specifically, I was playing at a band concert and thus was on my phone and it was the start of the game and I was joking around and messing with people instead of actually playing the game. Eventually, I got home to my computer and there was more to talk about, and so this changed. People pointed out different things about the initial playstyle, but unless you can explain why some of those claims are more or less valid than others, I am not sure what you are getting at. Even taking Mocsta out of the equation for a moment and talking generally I dont grasp how you don’t understand the devil is in the detail? It matters in what way it is off, because it’s a mindset thing. Sure? I think it depends on the situation though, no? Like it's possible that there are things in the details that are off and maybe it means something, and it's possible that there aren't? I'm sorry I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I just don't actually understand what you are getting at. On June 07 2024 17:05 Mocsta wrote:
Have skim read. Trfel stood out to me as sentiment over a few posts felt forced / overly processed. Not sure if that's his meta though. Certainly not a scum claim. Also felt a little similar with rsoultin. It seems that your point is that this post doesn't have basis? Yes but let’s leave it for now.
But you’re understanding what I’m saying which helps ^^
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EPT
