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I see the mechanics of this game are quite the uphill battle for me.
All and all, I cannot convince people not to consider the mechanics condemning. What's said has already been said in regards to blue density and setup. GreyMist is a guy that likes hosting "interesting" setups (see all of his setups, ever). This setup seemed designed to create a situation where the Evil Mastermind runs rampant and chaotic through the town. And that is how the game was balanced, though GreyMist's plans were foiled due to the D1 lynch.
I urge people to take a step back and look at the filters and players ignoring the mechanics. Simply scum-hunt. If you do, you will see that Vivax and TT are playing a mafia-sided game.
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Trfel, out of curiosity, why weren't you suspicious of me directly after my roleblock fiasco? A large portion of your read doubts the "3 blues" in the setup. From your perspective, you knew that I was the "3rd blue" from early D2 and onward.
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On December 01 2020 05:29 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 05:24 Hapahauli wrote:
Trfel, out of curiosity, why weren't you suspicious of me directly after my roleblock fiasco? A large portion of your read doubts the "3 blues" in the setup. From your perspective, you knew that I was the "3rd blue" from early D2 and onward. I was initially thinking that there could be three blues in the setup. It was the discussion (largely with raynpelikoneet) about blue claims that mostly changed my mind about that. Realizing that the bodyguard effectively counted as a confirmed town and that the Evil Mastermind would likely take a town, and three blues, makes the "special towns" (blues and bodyguard) outnumber the normal towns. It just feels really unlikely to me.
Despite my vote having been placed, I'm still around and here to talk about anything anyone deems productive. Unfortunately, it seems that only Hapahauli is around currently, and I'm not sure how much more I have to discuss with him currently, we've already talked a lot is all. More interested in talking with Vivax and Tictock. Though, @Hapahauli, of course I'm more than happy to talk and I'm still looking into stuff.
Why is this setup not "balanced" if the Evil Mastermind takes a blue on N1?
Or the town Mayor?
I think a lot of your discussion discounts the sheer power of the role and the potential for chaos. If I am reading your post correctly, you also seem to be implying that the Evil Mastermind can only convert a VT, which is inaccurate to my knowledge.
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And for emphasis, the EM taking a blue or the town mayor is an incredibly likely outcome in this setup if the EM survives the D1 lynch.
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Also, why are you assuming that the game is balanced? Greymist is a very creative and good host for sure. But he does not have a history of creating very balanced games.
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Lynching me for "3 blue roles is implausible" is understandable. No one will blame you for it post game. No one will call you stupid for it post game. Everyone at the end of the game will laugh it off, chalk it up to some hosting/setup shenanigans, and move on to the next game. I can understand why it is tempting to take that route. But it is not what is true in this game. What is true is that I am town, and that should be plainly obvious if people properly discount the setup speculation stuff.
Going on a limb and lynching Vivax or TT is going to feel a lot more insecure. If you're wrong, it's a lot more likely to be flamed post-game by an "angry townie". While I can be more confident since I know my alignment, you are not in that position.
I am asking a lot for players to put aside a psychologically comfortable lynch in favor of something else. But if you want to win, that is what you have to do.
Anyway, happy to talk about Vivax/TT reads. You have the golden opportunity to ask "scum-Hapa" rapid fire questions about his reads in the hopes that he slips up and reveals his scum buddy. Give it a shot?
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On December 01 2020 05:56 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 05:34 Hapahauli wrote:On December 01 2020 05:29 Trfel wrote:On December 01 2020 05:24 Hapahauli wrote:
Trfel, out of curiosity, why weren't you suspicious of me directly after my roleblock fiasco? A large portion of your read doubts the "3 blues" in the setup. From your perspective, you knew that I was the "3rd blue" from early D2 and onward. I was initially thinking that there could be three blues in the setup. It was the discussion (largely with raynpelikoneet) about blue claims that mostly changed my mind about that. Realizing that the bodyguard effectively counted as a confirmed town and that the Evil Mastermind would likely take a town, and three blues, makes the "special towns" (blues and bodyguard) outnumber the normal towns. It just feels really unlikely to me.
Despite my vote having been placed, I'm still around and here to talk about anything anyone deems productive. Unfortunately, it seems that only Hapahauli is around currently, and I'm not sure how much more I have to discuss with him currently, we've already talked a lot is all. More interested in talking with Vivax and Tictock. Though, @Hapahauli, of course I'm more than happy to talk and I'm still looking into stuff. Why is this setup not "balanced" if the Evil Mastermind takes a blue on N1? Or the town Mayor? I think a lot of your discussion discounts the sheer power of the role and the potential for chaos. If I am reading your post correctly, you also seem to be implying that the Evil Mastermind can only convert a VT, which is inaccurate to my knowledge. Honestly I'm not really sure much of the mechanics of the setup. There are still some basic questions about how my own role works that I probably should ask, like roleblock ordering and stuff. Honestly I dunno if this setup is balanced any way you look at it. Interesting sure, but there are too many unpredictable things to make a balanced setup, depending on how long the blues stay alive and what the evil mastermind does. But yes, I would be more than happy to try and find your scum-buddy. Can I ask why you currently prefer Vivax to Tictock, given that you seem to consider them both near 100% mafia? Or was it arbitrary?
I am very confident about the game state from my perspective. I would at this point be indifferent to lynching Vivax vs. TT.
From my perspective yesterday (having not very deeply read D2/D3), I was much more convinced on Vivax than TT at that point in the game. Finding TT's "read progression" on Vivax and sitting down and reading the clusterfuck that is Rayn's filter made me much more confident on my stance regarding TT.
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On December 01 2020 05:56 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 05:34 Hapahauli wrote:On December 01 2020 05:29 Trfel wrote:On December 01 2020 05:24 Hapahauli wrote:
Trfel, out of curiosity, why weren't you suspicious of me directly after my roleblock fiasco? A large portion of your read doubts the "3 blues" in the setup. From your perspective, you knew that I was the "3rd blue" from early D2 and onward. I was initially thinking that there could be three blues in the setup. It was the discussion (largely with raynpelikoneet) about blue claims that mostly changed my mind about that. Realizing that the bodyguard effectively counted as a confirmed town and that the Evil Mastermind would likely take a town, and three blues, makes the "special towns" (blues and bodyguard) outnumber the normal towns. It just feels really unlikely to me.
Despite my vote having been placed, I'm still around and here to talk about anything anyone deems productive. Unfortunately, it seems that only Hapahauli is around currently, and I'm not sure how much more I have to discuss with him currently, we've already talked a lot is all. More interested in talking with Vivax and Tictock. Though, @Hapahauli, of course I'm more than happy to talk and I'm still looking into stuff. Why is this setup not "balanced" if the Evil Mastermind takes a blue on N1? Or the town Mayor? I think a lot of your discussion discounts the sheer power of the role and the potential for chaos. If I am reading your post correctly, you also seem to be implying that the Evil Mastermind can only convert a VT, which is inaccurate to my knowledge. Honestly I'm not really sure much of the mechanics of the setup. There are still some basic questions about how my own role works that I probably should ask, like roleblock ordering and stuff. Honestly I dunno if this setup is balanced any way you look at it. Interesting sure, but there are too many unpredictable things to make a balanced setup, depending on how long the blues stay alive and what the evil mastermind does.
And that is the exact point that I'm trying to make. This is an insane setup from any perspective, 2 blues, 3, 4, or whatever. Why then are players making setup assumptions based on balance (and subsequently reads based on those assumptions) when the entire premise of the setup is insane?
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On December 01 2020 06:12 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 06:01 Fecalfeast wrote:
Arguing a claim based on game balance when we've already had a cult leader flip is not a good argument in my opinion and honestly hapa is making sense to me and his restraint from trying to take rayn down helps my opinion of him as well.
We still have a day so for now I'm putting my vote on TT to see how it suits me Nooo, Fecalfeast, you ruined it  Vote for Hapahauli again?
What exactly is ruined? FF is positioning himself well to lord over the townies who decide to lynch a blue. I'd say he's doing an excellent job.
In all seriousness Trfel, you are expressing a lot of confusion over the setup and balance. How can you say then that this is a strong basis for lynching me?
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##Vote GreYMisT
I knew I could count on you Trfel <3
Now if Rayn is stubborn, are you ready to YOLO Pardon me? It would be an objectively terrible play, but it would be hilarious and awesome.
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Well, all that's left is Rayn.
I hope he's not too mad at me for making him be late to work
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FYI, I did confirm roleblock mechanics with the host.
The Jailkeeper is divided into 2 actions:
1) A roleblock that resolves first...
2) And THEN a save.
This roleblock has the same priority as the mafia RB.
So, in the scenario where:
Player A is Jailkeeper
Player B is Mafia RB
Player C is a townie
If Player A JK's Player B, and;
If Player B both RB's Player A and shoots Player C;
Player C survives that interaction, and Player B's KP is blocked.
Therefore, we are in a position tomorrow (assuming we lynch mafia today) where Trfel, even if he is shot, can RB someone and confirm them as town or mafia.
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The above mechanic is why it is super dangerous for mafia to bus in this setup.
If mafia gets lynched, it is 1 mafia v. 4 town with mafia to shoot on N3.
Mafia basically has to target the JK. JK simply targets someone and states it in thread. If JK dies, JK's target is confirmed town. If JK lives, town has two lynches, allowing town to lynch JK's target AND another target (and allowing JK to act AGAIN the next night).
So best case scenario, mafia has to 1v1 the only unconfirmed town in the thread on D4 or 5. That's pretty tough.
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This is also why Vivax is mafia, because he somehow believes that bussing is a "good thing" for mafia here.
This is also why TicTock is mafia, because he somehow believes that it is optimal play for a Hapa/Vivax mafia team to willingly walk into a murderous situation for "our team" by bussing the shit out of each other from early N1.
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TT: Do you believe that Trfel is the JK?
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Let's make a deal TT.
I think Vivax is mafia. You think Vivax is mafia.
Let's kill Vivax. After that, since we both think that Trfel is the JK, he can simply block me tomorrow and "confirm me as mafia". Sounds good?
Game solved and over from your perspective. No need to argue or do anything.
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If the game is solved from your perspective, you should be completely indifferent to killing me or Vivax.
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I can't wait till you catch up.
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On December 01 2020 08:41 Tictock wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 05:11 Trfel wrote:
I have a few thoughts but nothing more to really add on top of what's already been said. Of course this changes if people suspect me, but given that no one seems to currently, it feels more valuable for me to watch what happens undisturbed.
With that said:
##Vote: Hapahauli
I can certainly understand why Hapahauli, as a claimed blue, wouldn't be killed. But it's so hard for me to understand why he wouldn't be roleblocked. And while I'm uncertain, I doubt the presence of three blues in the setup, especially given the bodyguard mechanic.
With that said: would someone be willing to explain to me what raynpelikoneet is saying about Hapahauli the past few pages that's so condemning? As I said on the last page, it seems to come down to role mechanics that I thought worked differently, but I seem to be horribly misreading. He is kinda on the same boat as me. Hapa claimed mafia would not kill him because they might set off his bomb on mafia!Vivax. Rayn was rightfully hounding down that that makes no sense when they knew he didn't have a bomb down and could RB and kill him without any worry. The only mechanical kink in that theory is that mafia knowing you are JK might be trying to play around protection. However this was still Happa's initial suggestion for why mafia would not kill him. While I find that all telling, I think looking at Happa's overall play it is clear his thinking is fualty if he was in fact Hatter. First he contradicts himself saying he didn't want mayor because getting shit let's hit use the role, but he later attempts to clearly breadcrum his role. I also think him using his blue claim as an excuse to drop off the game for awhile is telling. Then you can add in my point about his clearly having a strong scum read on Vivax at the start of day, they spends a few posts going "I don't know who is mafia, I keep flip flopping on Rayn" after several pages of defending his claim to me and rayn
"I'm in the same boat as Trfel, who at one point voted Hapa for mechanic-related reasons"...
On December 01 2020 08:48 Tictock wrote:
Let's not get too hung up on mechanics and setup. It is a bit too much WIFOM to be useful in a theoritical sense.
Much better to try and take a look at the player actions, behavior around their claim, and how they attempted to use their role.
However I will note that Bodyguard is similar to named town role AND acts as protection for mayor. I could add on but again I do not think pure mechanics should decide this as it is ultimately speculative until postgame
...but let's not overly focus on mechanics guys! That would be bad for town!
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@ TT
On December 01 2020 08:35 Hapahauli wrote:
Let's make a deal TT.
I think Vivax is mafia. You think Vivax is mafia.
Let's kill Vivax. After that, since we both think that Trfel is the JK, he can simply block me tomorrow and "confirm me as mafia". Sounds good?
Game solved and over from your perspective. No need to argue or do anything.
The offer stands. If I were to get Trfel to endorse this plan, will you vote Vivax?
Yes or no.
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EPT
